Tony,

You at least show a willingness to look at the evidence. Go here and read what it
offers: http://str.org/

I don't think you can honestly read this material with an open mind and not reach a
favourable conclusion
--
Todd

Todd wrote: "I don't think you can honestly read this material with an open
mind and not reach a favourable conclusion "

What conclusion would that be?

We just have a different belief system. I've read and will continue to read
some of the articles in the site you provided. But based upon what I've
already read, I still don't believe in God. In fact, nothing anyone has
said in these posts have gotten me any closer to believing in God. Much
like I suppose most relilgious people reading this have not come any closer
to not believing in God. What I am enjoying is hearing all sorts of
opinions and not a lot of name-calling!! That's nice for a change.

Tony



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Todd" wrote in message
news:HAcAc.739940$Pk3.208157@pd7tw1no...
Tony,

You at least show a willingness to look at the evidence. Go here and
read what it
offers: http://str.org/

I don't think you can honestly read this material with an open mind
and not reach a
favourable conclusion
--
Todd

Why? Did you talk to her?

Well, what do you think? Don't be stupid.

You're taking someone's word in support of the bible, but that person's word
came from the bible. Therefore, your argument is circular.

What evidence is that?

This, for a starter:
snip

I said "evidence". Your entire argument thus far has been circular. You
cannot prove that a book is accurate because the book claims that it's
accurate.

If I'm right, then I get eternal life in Heaven. And unbelievers are
punished forever.

Sounds like a sadistic fellow, no?

No, sounds like a just fellow to me.

Break the rules pay the price.

It's sadistic to set up such a "rule" to begin with.

And what's with his self-esteem problem? "Worship me or else."?? Yikes.
Years of therapy will just begin to make a dent in addressing that
problem...

Now I really
don't now if "something" created the universe or not.

....or if it was created at all. Or exactly what it IS.

But if something did,
I hardly think the Bible is the authority on such events. I'm also one of
those people that believes there is probably other intelligent life in
space. And if there is, I doubt they worship the same creator we do.

People on THIS planet don't worship the same creator, let alone things in
outer space.

I'm not going to believe in God just so I can be happier knowing what will
happen to me if I do.

No. His point is that you should play the odds.

If I believed in God it would have to be so becuase I
actually believed in him...which I don't. And if I'm not mistaken,
according to gospel, won't all the non-believers just burn in a lake of
fire
and cease to exist?

No, they go to the center of the earth and get pitchforked in the ass.
Don't you know anything?

Doug wrote
Maybe it's a frequency issue? I'm looking for that "feel" of bass
shaking my head, making my nose tickle and my head swim. Bass you
feel in your body more than your ears. Nephew's does a good job of
that; mine doesn't.

Then I think you may need larger enclosures for the 10's. I have a single
10" Orion XTR (800W RMS) running off of a Zapco AG200 (205W RMS). I have
used this setup in my '85 Firebird, my '94 Sunbird and my '03 Cavalier. For
sealed I use 1.2 cuft, and for ported 2.4 cuft. I admit that it sounds
different in each scenario (especially the Firebird) but I have not been
disappointed with any of them. I cross over a little higher then I want
because I still use factory speakers up front and they don't do much below
100Hz.
For a experiment, try inverting the subs so that the magnet and basket
aren't taking up space in the enclosure. This should help a little with
low-frequency extension. Also, try listen with the windows rolled down,
cabin gain is a big factor in a vehicle.

I don't listen to techno or rap music. I got the subs for when I feel
like being pounded by music.

Pink Floyd
Pantera
Metallica
AC/DC
George Thurgood

...and I like country too, and even Crash Test Dummies.

The bassiest thing I have is a Frogstomp CD I bought years ago and
rarely listen to. ...maybe the Wife's Enya CD's are kinda bassy; I
haven't tried them.

I like the same stuff you have listed, but I also go in for the techno. I
don't get the kick I want with the dance music, but I blame that on not
having a decent set of components. enya is bassy, although I prefer to tone
the bass down when listening to it, the real beauty of her music is in the
midrange.

Dan

MZ,

The Bible is a large collection of books written over a very long period of time. If that
makes its arguments circular for you then I suspect you wouldn't believe it anyway.

In any event, this is hardly a place to try and preach the gospel, and though I will try
to answer any sincere questions you may have I don't perceive any sincerity on your part
anyway.

The Stand to Reason site I the best I can direct you too.
--
Todd

Tony,

This link leads to a downloadable pdf document about the existence of God. Give it a
whirl, it might help

http://www.cgca.net/ucg/booklets/exist.pdf
--
Todd

"MZ" wrote in message
...

The bottom line is that, contrary to the beliefs held by some on both
sides,
it's impossible to prove that a "creator" does or does not exist.



I agree, almost. Personally I would amend it slightly. It is impossible to
prove, to another person, that a creator does or does not exist. It is a
topic that you basically just have to believe one way or the other and be
comfortable in that because as of now it cannot be "proven" in a manner to
appease everyone.
Now, with that being said, it is a useless argument since neither side can
be wrong in their beliefs on the issue. But we shall all find out the answer
when we die, so we can discuss who is right and who is wrong then.

Les

The Stand to Reason site I the best I can direct you too.

I live

answersingenesis.org
drdino.com

also =)

Dan

"MZ" wrote in message
...
I agree, almost. Personally I would amend it slightly. It is impossible
to
prove, to another person, that a creator does or does not exist. It is a
topic that you basically just have to believe one way or the other and
be
comfortable in that because as of now it cannot be "proven" in a manner
to
appease everyone.
Now, with that being said, it is a useless argument since neither side
can
be wrong in their beliefs on the issue.

Neither side can be wrong with their beliefs, perhaps. But, as I've
hopefully pointed out in this thread, one can be wrong with their
reasoning
for adopting such a belief system. Like many mysteries, it's simply a
matter of weighing evidence and choosing the option which appears to be
the
most plausible.

One can be wrong with their reasoning, on both sides, to the point of being
blinded by their faith. I think that everyone can agree to that, and it has
been pointed out. Someone who relies solely on science, which cannot be
"proved", seems foolish to those who believe in God. And likewise those who
believe in God, which cannot be "proved", seems foolish to those who rely on
science. It would reason, although it is flawed as well, that a person who
uses BOTH is bound to not be foolish and have the whole picture. But they
are usually more sure of their beliefs and not easily swayed. If you can
talk somebody into something, then someone can talk them out of it.

Unfortunately, most folks arrive at a decision before they
actually weigh the evidence. So then they search out evidence that
supports
their initial belief while ignoring that which doesn't support it.

True, for some people. There seems to be a debate in these types of threads
that God and Science are mutually exclusive. They are not. There has never,
to my knowledge, been evidence that a belief in God and the Bible defies
proven (not theoretical) science. Likewise there has never been evidence to
support that believing in proven science means that you cannot believe in
God. So it basically boils down to what each individual person chooses to
believe.


But we shall all find out the answer
when we die, so we can discuss who is right and who is wrong then.

Well, maybe we won't. If there isn't an afterlife, then we won't find
out.

Hmmm. Well if we do, I am sure it will be an interesting discussion.

BTW Mark, it is nice to have a discussion where ideas and thoughts can be
exchanged without resorting to name-calling, especially on this oftenly
heated topic.

Les

MZ,

The Bible is a large collection of books written over a very long period
of time. If that
makes its arguments circular for you then I suspect you wouldn't believe
it anyway.

By definition, a circular argument requires that, as a premise, you accept
the topic that's being debated as fact in order to prove that it is fact.
That's a circular argument, and it's a logical fallacy. What did you think
it was?

In any event, this is hardly a place to try and preach the gospel, and
though I will try
to answer any sincere questions you may have I don't perceive any
sincerity on your part
anyway.

I spent several years studying the bible, so I don't have any questions for
you about its content. In fact, I feel that everyone should read it at
least once, simply because of its importance to our society. Whether one
agrees with it or not doesn't mean that it should be ignored.

Tony,

This link leads to a downloadable pdf document about the existence of God.
Give it a
whirl, it might help

http://www.cgca.net/ucg/booklets/exist.pdf

I began to read it, but the very first paragraph of this document is a lie.
Why should I bother to read the rest?

Here it is:

"The discovery was stunning. For 10 days astronomers had carefully trained
the Hubble Space Telescope on a tiny patch of sky that appeared no larger
than a grain of sand held at arm's length. Focusing on a spotnear the Big
Dipper where the view wouldn't be obstructed by nearby planets or stars, the
scientists used the giant orbitingtelescope's instruments to methodically
gather 342 exposures, averaging 15 to 40 minutes long. They patiently
recorded miniscule points of light four billion times fainter than
detectable with the human eye."

The last sentence is absurd. What other inaccuracies are in this document?
Is this why it's published on a private website and not in something
worthwhile?

I don't know what the lie might be, MZ.

But since you know everything, why don't you tell us?
--
Todd

For that matter don't bother telling us. It is clear that you simply crave attention on
this forum.

Why don't you just ignore us deluded folk and let us discuss our fantasies in some
semblance of peace?
--
Todd

I don't know what the lie might be, MZ.

But since you know everything, why don't you tell us?

I pointed out that the last sentence was incorrect. Specifically, contrast
was not an issue and, in the absence of a mask, the human eye can detect
down to the single-photon level. It's annoying when an article, whose chief
aim is to try to argue in favor of what they feel is the "truth", gets
things wrong right out of the starting gate.

I read a bit more of the article (though I did not have the time or ambition
to read the entire 32 pages). It appears that the sole argument has two
major flaws:

First, it misinterprets the argument made by the other side and thus the
article becomes one giant strawman (logical fallacy #1). Specifically, the
author demonstrates that he doesn't have much of a grasp about what the
second law of thermodynamics is all about, and therefore discounts the
possibility entirely. In other words, he provides the physicist's
statements regarding how things must have been "designed", yet I'm almost
certain that the physicist probably followed that statement with something
regarding how the 2nd law of thermodynamics tends to account for such
seemingly "designed" processes. Many many aspects of human development, for
instance, serve as good examples of how such an apparently well-designed
process can be dictated almost entirely by "random-like" events.

Second, even if the author had correctly interpreted the other side's
argument, he is still relying on logical fallacies to argue his point.
Essentially, the question that he seems to be focusing his argument on is
this: "If the laws of physics as currently defined can't account for it,
then there must be a god." The argument "if A is not true, then B *must* be
true" is also a logical fallacy (#2). But it's moot anyway, because it's
not based on a proper interpretation of physics anyway.

It's important to note here that my criticism of his form of argumentation
isn't a condemnation of the idea that a "creator" exists. I'm simply
dismissing his line of reasoning because it's chock full of holes. And it
seems to me like you folks are supporting this very same argument.

The bottom line is that, contrary to the beliefs held by some on both sides,
it's impossible to prove that a "creator" does or does not exist.

I agree, almost. Personally I would amend it slightly. It is impossible to
prove, to another person, that a creator does or does not exist. It is a
topic that you basically just have to believe one way or the other and be
comfortable in that because as of now it cannot be "proven" in a manner to
appease everyone.
Now, with that being said, it is a useless argument since neither side can
be wrong in their beliefs on the issue.

Neither side can be wrong with their beliefs, perhaps. But, as I've
hopefully pointed out in this thread, one can be wrong with their reasoning
for adopting such a belief system. Like many mysteries, it's simply a
matter of weighing evidence and choosing the option which appears to be the
most plausible. Unfortunately, most folks arrive at a decision before they
actually weigh the evidence. So then they search out evidence that supports
their initial belief while ignoring that which doesn't support it.

But we shall all find out the answer
when we die, so we can discuss who is right and who is wrong then.

Well, maybe we won't. If there isn't an afterlife, then we won't find out.

Les wrote: "But we shall all find out the answer when we die, so we can
discuss who is right and who is wrong then."

I hope so. But it's possible that when we die nothing will be revealed and
we'll just be DEAD.

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Les" wrote in message
...

"MZ" wrote in message
...

The bottom line is that, contrary to the beliefs held by some on both
sides,
it's impossible to prove that a "creator" does or does not exist.



I agree, almost. Personally I would amend it slightly. It is impossible to
prove, to another person, that a creator does or does not exist. It is a
topic that you basically just have to believe one way or the other and be
comfortable in that because as of now it cannot be "proven" in a manner to
appease everyone.
Now, with that being said, it is a useless argument since neither side can
be wrong in their beliefs on the issue. But we shall all find out the
answer
when we die, so we can discuss who is right and who is wrong then.

Les

"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ...
Les wrote: "But we shall all find out the answer when we die, so we can
discuss who is right and who is wrong then."

I hope so. But it's possible that when we die nothing will be revealed and
we'll just be DEAD.

Tony


I find the reports intersting of people who have already been dead,
but then are resucitated and have some disturbing reports to give.
I've heard one from a doctor in an ER who had a young man come back to
life several times on the table and each time was screaming about how
hot it was and to make the burning stop. He eventually stayed dead
though.

I don't know. I guess most people just don't want to believe. For one
reason or another. Doctors could give you numerous unexplainable
reports of what people have seen on teh other side. Or of cancer,
tumors, etc miraculously dissapearing. And I could tell you of how
chronic excrutiating neck pain that I suffered for 10 years after an
accident was instantly healed one day when I prayed about it. Or how I
was delievered overnite from addictions to tobbaco, alcohol and drugs.

Thousands could tell you that God is very very real and they've seen
proof but some just need to see it for themselves instead of taking
our word for it. I feel very lucky in that reguard. I pray that God
will continue to try and get your attention because He has so much
better for you if you'll just believe and receive it.

Dan

True, for some people. There seems to be a debate in these types of
threads
that God and Science are mutually exclusive. They are not.

Exactly the point I've been trying to make in this thread. But I think an
important goal for the "believers" should be to try to argue for the case of
a god within the framework of physics, rather than in opposition to it.
Before the argument even got started, the very first move was for them to
try to dismiss all (relatively) well-established scientific notions because
they were inconsistent with the details of their belief system.

Their argument would then have to follow one of two paths: 1) physics is
wrong; or 2) the god "interrupted" the laws of physics to do something, and
then set them back in motion - a timeout, if you will. Sure, both of those
ideas are possible. But I'd argue that they're highly unlikely, and I
certainly wouldn't default to either of those ideas. We've already seen one
poster say something to the effect of "god was powerful enough to create
everything; why couldn't he operate outside the bounds of physics?" That
argument is a cop out. I'd simply counter with a cop out of my own: "can
god create something so heavy that he could not lift it?"

I find the reports intersting of people who have already been dead,
but then are resucitated and have some disturbing reports to give.

And you don't believe that stress to the system (presumably, in the process
of dying, the brain is undergoing some sort of stress in each of these
cases) gives rise to certain percepts, such as the "bright light" or
"burning" that have been described? Maybe you can visit a lab that's doing
animal microstimulation to see what they observe.

MZ,

I can not argue you into believing in God. All of the questions you pose are not
original, they've been asked by many people many times before. They are all dealt with on
the Stand to Reason site and the other, which offers the "Does God Exist" pdf.

Still, you have doubts. Conversion to becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ is not a
frivilous endeavour. You will have doubts, friends will laugh at you and mock you and try
to hunmiliate you for your belief. Satan will try to deceive you and discourage you. But
when you reach the point of surrender we believers will give you a hearty "Welcome to the
club!"

But all I can offer you is a course of action to truly place your request for faith
before the Creator of the universe. Now what more could any of us humans ask for?

So please bear with me, as this may become a bit lengthy

First I think it would be a good idea to see what the God of the Bible has to say
about what being in his presence is like. All quotes are from the New International
Version (NIV).

Here is how the author of Revelation described it.

(Rev 4:1 NIV) After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in
heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here,
and I will show you what must take place after this."

(Rev 4:2 NIV) At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven
with someone sitting on it.

(Rev 4:3 NIV) And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A
rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne.

(Rev 4:4 NIV) Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them
were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

(Rev 4:5 NIV) From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder.
Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God.

(Rev 4:6 NIV) Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as
crystal. In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were
covered with eyes, in front and in back.

(Rev 4:7 NIV) The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the
third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.

(Rev 4:8 NIV) Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes
all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come."

(Rev 4:9 NIV) Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits
on the throne and who lives for ever and ever,

(Rev 4:10 NIV) the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and
worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:

(Rev 4:11 NIV) "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."

(Rev 5:1 NIV) Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with
writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals.

(Rev 5:2 NIV) And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to
break the seals and open the scroll?"

(Rev 5:3 NIV) But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll
or even look inside it.

(Rev 5:4 NIV) I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll
or look inside.

(Rev 5:5 NIV) Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe
of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven
seals."

(Rev 5:6 NIV) Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center
of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns
and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

(Rev 5:7 NIV) He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the
throne.

(Rev 5:8 NIV) And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four
elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls
full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

(Rev 5:9 NIV) And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open
its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from
every tribe and language and people and nation.

(Rev 5:10 NIV) You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they
will reign on the earth."

(Rev 5:11 NIV) Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon
thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living
creatures and the elders.

(Rev 5:12 NIV) In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive
power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"

(Rev 5:13 NIV) Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and
on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the
Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

(Rev 5:14 NIV) The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and
worshiped.



A pretty impressive place to be, if we are to believe the scriptures. What other
descriptions are in the Bible of this type of encounter? Isaiah saw this while in the
temple in Jerusalem:


(Isa 6:1 NIV) In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high
and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple.

(Isa 6:2 NIV) Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered
their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.

(Isa 6:3 NIV) And they were calling to one another: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD
Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory."

(Isa 6:4 NIV) At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the
temple was filled with smoke.

(Isa 6:5 NIV) "Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I
live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."

(Isa 6:6 NIV) Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he
had taken with tongs from the altar.

(Isa 6:7 NIV) With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips;
your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for."

(Isa 6:8 NIV) Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will
go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"

(Isa 6:9 NIV) He said, "Go and tell this people: "'Be ever hearing, but never
understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'


And Ezekial saw this vision as he was held in a prison camp in what is modern-day
Iraq.


(Ezek 1:1 NIV) In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, while I was
among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.

(Ezek 1:2 NIV) On the fifth of the month--it was the fifth year of the exile of King
Jehoiachin--

(Ezek 1:3 NIV) the word of the LORD came to Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, by the
Kebar River in the land of the Babylonians. There the hand of the LORD was upon him.

(Ezek 1:4 NIV) I looked, and I saw a windstorm coming out of the north--an immense cloud
with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light. The center of the fire looked
like glowing metal,

(Ezek 1:5 NIV) and in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. In appearance
their form was that of a man,

(Ezek 1:6 NIV) but each of them had four faces and four wings.

(Ezek 1:7 NIV) Their legs were straight; their feet were like those of a calf and gleamed
like burnished bronze.

(Ezek 1:8 NIV) Under their wings on their four sides they had the hands of a man. All
four of them had faces and wings,

(Ezek 1:9 NIV) and their wings touched one another. Each one went straight ahead; they
did not turn as they moved.

(Ezek 1:10 NIV) Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and
on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each
also had the face of an eagle.

(Ezek 1:11 NIV) Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two
wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering
its body.

(Ezek 1:12 NIV) Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would
go, without turning as they went.

(Ezek 1:13 NIV) The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or
like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning
flashed out of it.

(Ezek 1:14 NIV) The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.

(Ezek 1:15 NIV) As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside
each creature with its four faces.

(Ezek 1:16 NIV) This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like
chrysolite, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting
a wheel.

(Ezek 1:17 NIV) As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the
creatures faced; the wheels did not turn about as the creatures went.

(Ezek 1:18 NIV) Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all
around.

(Ezek 1:19 NIV) When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when
the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose.

(Ezek 1:20 NIV) Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise
along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

(Ezek 1:21 NIV) When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood
still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose
along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.

(Ezek 1:22 NIV) Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like
an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome.

(Ezek 1:23 NIV) Under the expanse their wings were stretched out one toward the other,
and each had two wings covering its body.

(Ezek 1:24 NIV) When the creatures moved, I heard the sound of their wings, like the roar
of rushing waters, like the voice of the Almighty, like the tumult of an army. When they
stood still, they lowered their wings.

(Ezek 1:25 NIV) Then there came a voice from above the expanse over their heads as they
stood with lowered wings.

(Ezek 1:26 NIV) Above the expanse over their heads was what looked like a throne of
sapphire, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man.

(Ezek 1:27 NIV) I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing
metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant
light surrounded him.

(Ezek 1:28 NIV) Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the
radiance around him. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.
When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking.

(Ezek 2:1 NIV) He said to me, "Son of man, stand up on your feet and I will speak to
you."

(Ezek 2:2 NIV) As he spoke, the Spirit came into me and raised me to my feet, and I heard
him speaking to me.

(Ezek 2:3 NIV) He said: "Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious
nation that has rebelled against me; they and their fathers have been in revolt against me
to this very day.

(Ezek 2:4 NIV) The people to whom I am sending you are obstinate and stubborn. Say to
them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says.'

(Ezek 2:5 NIV) And whether they listen or fail to listen--for they are a rebellious
house--they will know that a prophet has been among them.

(Ezek 2:6 NIV) And you, son of man, do not be afraid of them or their words. Do not be
afraid, though briers and thorns are all around you and you live among scorpions. Do not
be afraid of what they say or terrified by them, though they are a rebellious house.

(Ezek 2:7 NIV) You must speak my words to them, whether they listen or fail to listen,
for they are rebellious.

(Ezek 2:8 NIV) But you, son of man, listen to what I say to you. Do not rebel like that
rebellious house; open your mouth and eat what I give you."

(Ezek 2:9 NIV) Then I looked, and I saw a hand stretched out to me. In it was a scroll,

(Ezek 2:10 NIV) which he unrolled before me. On both sides of it were written words of
lament and mourning and woe.

(Ezek 3:1 NIV) And he said to me, "Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll;
then go and speak to the house of Israel."

(Ezek 3:2 NIV) So I opened my mouth, and he gave me the scroll to eat.

(Ezek 3:3 NIV) Then he said to me, "Son of man, eat this scroll I am giving you and fill
your stomach with it." So I ate it, and it tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth.

(Ezek 3:4 NIV) He then said to me: "Son of man, go now to the house of Israel and speak
my words to them.

(Ezek 3:5 NIV) You are not being sent to a people of obscure speech and difficult
language, but to the house of Israel--

(Ezek 3:6 NIV) not to many peoples of obscure speech and difficult language, whose words
you cannot understand. Surely if I had sent you to them, they would have listened to you.

(Ezek 3:7 NIV) But the house of Israel is not willing to listen to you because they are
not willing to listen to me, for the whole house of Israel is hardened and obstinate.

(Ezek 3:8 NIV) But I will make you as unyielding and hardened as they are.

(Ezek 3:9 NIV) I will make your forehead like the hardest stone, harder than flint. Do
not be afraid of them or terrified by them, though they are a rebellious house."

(Ezek 3:10 NIV) And he said to me, "Son of man, listen carefully and take to heart all
the words I speak to you.

(Ezek 3:11 NIV) Go now to your countrymen in exile and speak to them. Say to them, 'This
is what the Sovereign LORD says,' whether they listen or fail to listen."

(Ezek 3:12 NIV) Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me a loud rumbling
sound--May the glory of the LORD be praised in his dwelling place!--

(Ezek 3:13 NIV) the sound of the wings of the living creatures brushing against each
other and the sound of the wheels beside them, a loud rumbling sound.

(Ezek 3:14 NIV) The Spirit then lifted me up and took me away, and I went in bitterness
and in the anger of my spirit, with the strong hand of the LORD upon me.



Pretty astounding stuff, eh? Yet according to scripture you can bring your request for
faith before this very supreme seat of government of the entire universe! So, what have
you got to lose? You may even find that you have eternal life and eternal joy to gain.

So how do we bring a request before the living God of the Bible, assuming of course
that such a God exists?


Isaiah says this:


(Isa 58:2 NIV) For day after day they seek me out; they seem eager to know my ways, as if
they were a nation that does what is right and has not forsaken the commands of its God.
They ask me for just decisions and seem eager for God to come near them.

(Isa 58:3 NIV) 'Why have we fasted,' they say, 'and you have not seen it? Why have we
humbled ourselves, and you have not noticed?' "Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as
you please and exploit all your workers.

(Isa 58:4 NIV) Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife, and in striking each other
with wicked fists. You cannot fast as you do today and expect your voice to be heard on
high.

(Isa 58:5 NIV) Is this the kind of fast I have chosen, only a day for a man to humble
himself? Is it only for bowing one's head like a reed and for lying on sackcloth and
ashes? Is that what you call a fast, a day acceptable to the LORD?

(Isa 58:6 NIV) "Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of
injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?

(Isa 58:7 NIV) Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor
wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from
your own flesh and blood?

(Isa 58:8 NIV) Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will
quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will
be your rear guard.

(Isa 58:9 NIV) Then you will call, and the LORD will answer; you will cry for help, and
he will say: Here am I. "If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing
finger and malicious talk,

(Isa 58:10 NIV) and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs
of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become
like the noonday.

(Isa 58:11 NIV) The LORD will guide you always; he will satisfy your needs in a
sun-scorched land and will strengthen your frame. You will be like a well-watered garden,
like a spring whose waters never fail.

(Isa 58:12 NIV) Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins and will raise up the age-old
foundations; you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls, Restorer of Streets with
Dwellings.

(Isa 58:13 NIV) "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you
please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the Lord's holy day
honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or
speaking idle words,

(Isa 58:14 NIV) then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride on
the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob." The mouth
of the LORD has spoken.

(Isa 59:1 NIV) Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor his ear too dull
to hear.

(Isa 59:2 NIV) But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have
hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

(Isa 59:3 NIV) For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt. Your lips
have spoken lies, and your tongue mutters wicked things.

(Isa 59:4 NIV) No one calls for justice; no one pleads his case with integrity. They rely
on empty arguments and speak lies; they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.

(Isa 59:5 NIV) They hatch the eggs of vipers and spin a spider's web. Whoever eats their
eggs will die, and when one is broken, an adder is hatched.

(Isa 59:6 NIV) Their cobwebs are useless for clothing; they cannot cover themselves with
what they make. Their deeds are evil deeds, and acts of violence are in their hands.

(Isa 59:7 NIV) Their feet rush into sin; they are swift to shed innocent blood. Their
thoughts are evil thoughts; ruin and destruction mark their ways.

(Isa 59:8 NIV) The way of peace they do not know; there is no justice in their paths.
They have turned them into crooked roads; no one who walks in them will know peace.

(Isa 59:9 NIV) So justice is far from us, and righteousness does not reach us. We look
for light, but all is darkness; for brightness, but we walk in deep shadows.

(Isa 59:10 NIV) Like the blind we grope along the wall, feeling our way like men without
eyes. At midday we stumble as if it were twilight; among the strong, we are like the dead.

(Isa 59:11 NIV) We all growl like bears; we moan mournfully like doves. We look for
justice, but find none; for deliverance, but it is far away.

(Isa 59:12 NIV) For our offenses are many in your sight, and our sins testify against us.
Our offenses are ever with us, and we acknowledge our iniquities:

(Isa 59:13 NIV) rebellion and treachery against the LORD, turning our backs on our God,
fomenting oppression and revolt, uttering lies our hearts have conceived.

(Isa 59:14 NIV) So justice is driven back, and righteousness stands at a distance; truth
has stumbled in the streets, honesty cannot enter.

(Isa 59:15 NIV) Truth is nowhere to be found, and whoever shuns evil becomes a prey. The
LORD looked and was displeased that there was no justice.



Clearly, the route to the throne of the God of the Bible is to truly humble yourself
and to fast for a day or two, taking no food or water. God WILL take notice of you and
hear you request for faith. Notice what happened when evil king Ahab humbled himself and
fasted.


(1 Ki 21:1 NIV) Some time later there was an incident involving a vineyard belonging to
Naboth the Jezreelite. The vineyard was in Jezreel, close to the palace of Ahab king of
Samaria.

(1 Ki 21:2 NIV) Ahab said to Naboth, "Let me have your vineyard to use for a vegetable
garden, since it is close to my palace. In exchange I will give you a better vineyard or,
if you prefer, I will pay you whatever it is worth."

(1 Ki 21:3 NIV) But Naboth replied, "The LORD forbid that I should give you the
inheritance of my fathers."

(1 Ki 21:4 NIV) So Ahab went home, sullen and angry because Naboth the Jezreelite had
said, "I will not give you the inheritance of my fathers." He lay on his bed sulking and
refused to eat.

(1 Ki 21:5 NIV) His wife Jezebel came in and asked him, "Why are you so sullen? Why won't
you eat?"

(1 Ki 21:6 NIV) He answered her, "Because I said to Naboth the Jezreelite, 'Sell me your
vineyard; or if you prefer, I will give you another vineyard in its place.' But he said,
'I will not give you my vineyard.'"

(1 Ki 21:7 NIV) Jezebel his wife said, "Is this how you act as king over Israel? Get up
and eat! Cheer up. I'll get you the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite."

(1 Ki 21:8 NIV) So she wrote letters in Ahab's name, placed his seal on them, and sent
them to the elders and nobles who lived in Naboth's city with him.

(1 Ki 21:9 NIV) In those letters she wrote: "Proclaim a day of fasting and seat Naboth in
a prominent place among the people.

(1 Ki 21:10 NIV) But seat two scoundrels opposite him and have them testify that he has
cursed both God and the king. Then take him out and stone him to death."

(1 Ki 21:11 NIV) So the elders and nobles who lived in Naboth's city did as Jezebel
directed in the letters she had written to them.

(1 Ki 21:12 NIV) They proclaimed a fast and seated Naboth in a prominent place among the
people.

(1 Ki 21:13 NIV) Then two scoundrels came and sat opposite him and brought charges
against Naboth before the people, saying, "Naboth has cursed both God and the king." So
they took him outside the city and stoned him to death.

(1 Ki 21:14 NIV) Then they sent word to Jezebel: "Naboth has been stoned and is dead."

(1 Ki 21:15 NIV) As soon as Jezebel heard that Naboth had been stoned to death, she said
to Ahab, "Get up and take possession of the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite that he
refused to sell you. He is no longer alive, but dead."

(1 Ki 21:16 NIV) When Ahab heard that Naboth was dead, he got up and went down to take
possession of Naboth's vineyard.

(1 Ki 21:17 NIV) Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite:

(1 Ki 21:18 NIV) "Go down to meet Ahab king of Israel, who rules in Samaria. He is now in
Naboth's vineyard, where he has gone to take possession of it.

(1 Ki 21:19 NIV) Say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: Have you not murdered a man and
seized his property?' Then say to him, 'This is what the LORD says: In the place where
dogs licked up Naboth's blood, dogs will lick up your blood--yes, yours!'"

(1 Ki 21:20 NIV) Ahab said to Elijah, "So you have found me, my enemy!" "I have found
you," he answered, "because you have sold yourself to do evil in the eyes of the LORD.

(1 Ki 21:21 NIV) 'I am going to bring disaster on you. I will consume your descendants
and cut off from Ahab every last male in Israel--slave or free.

(1 Ki 21:22 NIV) I will make your house like that of Jeroboam son of Nebat and that of
Baasha son of Ahijah, because you have provoked me to anger and have caused Israel to
sin.'

(1 Ki 21:23 NIV) "And also concerning Jezebel the LORD says: 'Dogs will devour Jezebel by
the wall of Jezreel.'

(1 Ki 21:24 NIV) "Dogs will eat those belonging to Ahab who die in the city, and the
birds of the air will feed on those who die in the country."

(1 Ki 21:25 NIV) (There was never a man like Ahab, who sold himself to do evil in the
eyes of the LORD, urged on by Jezebel his wife.

(1 Ki 21:26 NIV) He behaved in the vilest manner by going after idols, like the Amorites
the LORD drove out before Israel.)

(1 Ki 21:27 NIV) When Ahab heard these words, he tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and
fasted. He lay in sackcloth and went around meekly.

(1 Ki 21:28 NIV) Then the word of the LORD came to Elijah the Tishbite:

(1 Ki 21:29 NIV) "Have you noticed how Ahab has humbled himself before me? Because he has
humbled himself, I will not bring this disaster in his day, but I will bring it on his
house in the days of his son."


Fasting and humbling yourself will bring you to the attention of God. Then ask God to
help you to discern whether he really exists or not. This is the central question of this
thread, is it not? He is willing to help a person who is sincere in their endeavour to
find faith. See what happened he


(Mark 9:14 NIV) When they came to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd around them
and the teachers of the law arguing with them.

(Mark 9:15 NIV) As soon as all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder
and ran to greet him.

(Mark 9:16 NIV) "What are you arguing with them about?" he asked.

(Mark 9:17 NIV) A man in the crowd answered, "Teacher, I brought you my son, who is
possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech.

(Mark 9:18 NIV) Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the
mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the
spirit, but they could not."

(Mark 9:19 NIV) "O unbelieving generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay with
you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me."

(Mark 9:20 NIV) So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the
boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.

(Mark 9:21 NIV) Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?" "From
childhood," he answered.

(Mark 9:22 NIV) "It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can
do anything, take pity on us and help us."

(Mark 9:23 NIV) "'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who
believes."

(Mark 9:24 NIV) Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me overcome
my unbelief!"

(Mark 9:25 NIV) When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil
spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you, come out of him and never
enter him again."

(Mark 9:26 NIV) The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked
so much like a corpse that many said, "He's dead."

(Mark 9:27 NIV) But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood
up.

(Mark 9:28 NIV) After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately, "Why
couldn't we drive it out?"

(Mark 9:29 NIV) He replied, "This kind can come out only by prayer."


So there you have it.

MZ, you have nothing to lose.

Why not give it a try and see what happens?
--
Todd

"MZ" wrote in message
...
I don't dismiss stories of people being turned into pillars of salt. Any
being great
enough to have created life, the universe and everything in it would
have
no problem
turning a human into a pillar of salt.

How do you reconcile this belief with the laws of physics? Or did the
laws
of physics somehow momentarily cease to be so that this trick could be
pulled off?

And, perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have that it actually
happened?

seeing how he set into motion the laws of physics (if you believe he exist)
I think he could/can do anything he wants. he's not restricted like man
is.

I don't dismiss stories of people being turned into pillars of salt.
Any
being great
enough to have created life, the universe and everything in it would
have
no problem
turning a human into a pillar of salt.

How do you reconcile this belief with the laws of physics? Or did the
laws
of physics somehow momentarily cease to be so that this trick could be
pulled off?

And, perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have that it
actually
happened?

seeing how he set into motion the laws of physics (if you believe he
exist)
I think he could/can do anything he wants. he's not restricted like man
is.

Which would require that you believe he temporarily disrupted the laws of
physics after already establishing them.

Do people really believe this? Do people truly believe he came down out of
the sky, waved his magic wand, and turned someone into a pillar of salt?
Honestly?

"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message
...
Les wrote: "But we shall all find out the answer when we die, so we can
discuss who is right and who is wrong then."

I hope so. But it's possible that when we die nothing will be revealed
and
we'll just be DEAD.

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or,
that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we
wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

if this is true we are on the planet and there is nothing after this, then
this is a sad existence, you're born, walk around for a while, then die. I
would hate for this to be true. I want to look forward to something even if
it's a pipe dream.

"MZ" wrote in message
...
Now I really
don't now if "something" created the universe or not.

...or if it was created at all. Or exactly what it IS.

But if something did,
I hardly think the Bible is the authority on such events. I'm also one
of
those people that believes there is probably other intelligent life in
space. And if there is, I doubt they worship the same creator we do.

People on THIS planet don't worship the same creator, let alone things in
outer space.

but the major religions based on monotheism has the same basic concept, just
different interpretations on his name and the hierarchy of who is in charge.

but the major religions based on monotheism has the same basic concept,
just
different interpretations on his name and the hierarchy of who is in
charge.

Them's fightin' words. Jihad!

Mr. Mark Zarella wrote: "Do people really believe this? Do people truly
believe he came down out of the sky, waved his magic wand, and turned
someone into a pillar of salt? Honestly?"

I don't. It's a myth. Don't get me wrong, it's a great story, but it's
basically mythology. Granted, it's one of the greatest and most believed
myths. (and I don't just mean the stroy about the pillar of salt, I'm more
or less referring to the entire Jesus story...at least most of it).

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"MZ" wrote in message
...
I don't dismiss stories of people being turned into pillars of salt.
Any
being great
enough to have created life, the universe and everything in it would
have
no problem
turning a human into a pillar of salt.

How do you reconcile this belief with the laws of physics? Or did the
laws
of physics somehow momentarily cease to be so that this trick could be
pulled off?

And, perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have that it
actually
happened?

seeing how he set into motion the laws of physics (if you believe he
exist)
I think he could/can do anything he wants. he's not restricted like
man
is.

Which would require that you believe he temporarily disrupted the laws of
physics after already establishing them.

Do people really believe this? Do people truly believe he came down out
of
the sky, waved his magic wand, and turned someone into a pillar of salt?
Honestly?

Tha Gee wrote: "if this is true we are on the planet and there is nothing
after this, then this is a sad existence, you're born, walk around for a
while, then die. I would hate for this to be true. I want to look forward
to something even if it's a pipe dream."

Glass half empty vs. glass half full.

It sounds as if you're saying you believe in God just becuase the
alternative makes you feel so small and alone.

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

"Tha Ghee" wrote in message
...
"Tony Fernandes" wrote in message
...
Les wrote: "But we shall all find out the answer when we die, so we can
discuss who is right and who is wrong then."

I hope so. But it's possible that when we die nothing will be revealed
and
we'll just be DEAD.

Tony


--



What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the
universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or,
that
he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we
wouldn't
have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact

if this is true we are on the planet and there is nothing after this, then
this is a sad existence, you're born, walk around for a while, then die.
I
would hate for this to be true. I want to look forward to something even
if
it's a pipe dream.

"Mark Stahl" wrote in message
...

"Doug" wrote in message
...
This is the wrong place to discuss this, so I'll just say that you are
correct in evolution threatens my faith. When evolution is proven,
the Bible is disproven, and I become an atheist. Explaining away
Genesis undermines the entire Bible. No creation, no god.


congratulations on becoming an atheist, then....

Right now, evidence does not fully support evolution.

actually, it does. in fact, it is observed, experimentally verified fact.

Sorry Mr Stahl, try again. It is NOT A PROVEN FACT!!!! So far in our
scientific studies noone can prove evolution and deny creation, nor can they
prove creation and deny evolution.
Although, I have had arguments with people that believe that evolution has
been "proved", like yourself, and before you post again I want you to do
research between microevolution and macroevolution. Once you have studied
the difference in those then show your "proof". Right now you post
meaningless diatribes with no basis or reference to facts, basically you are
utilizing strawman tactics.


If evolution
were fact, we'd see a gradual change of species from one to another,
with increasing diversity as time passes.

which is precisely what is observed, both in the imperfect fossil record
and
in the better-preserved genome.

Precisely? Imperfect? Seems to me that your precision is a little off.


Instead, the fossil record
is replete with zillions of instances of different species, with less
and less diversity as time passes.

what on earth are you talking about?

There are a very few instances
(Archeopteryx, platypus) that seem to show evolution, but the vast
majority shows distinct speciation, not gradual change.

there are quite a few examples of transitional fossil forms. moreover, the
genetics show exactly the gradual change you expect.

Well then list some of those examples. BTW, just because something obeys
what you would expect in genetics does not prove one thing and disprove the
other.


...and don't
forget speciation is a classification thought up by humans to explain
what they see. Many different species (I'm referring mostly to
invertebrates here) are in fact the same creatures, or "kind" if you
will.


ridiculous assertion. there is no such thing as a "kind" outside of the
bible.


Now I'm done (I hope), as this is really the wrong place. ...just
wanted to point out that the science does not fully support either
side,

sure it does. evolution is scientifically observed. creation is made up.

Again. No basis in fact. Just a useless troll. Why do I feed these things?


and creation makes more sense to many than the "magic" of
evolution.


creation only makes sense to the uneducated, sorry.

OHHHHH I see what you are now. Well you have fun in your circle of
"educated" people who do not know the difference between theories and facts
or macro vs micro.

Les

"Mark Stahl" wrote in message
...

"Les" wrote in message
...

"MZ" wrote in message
...
I agree, almost. Personally I would amend it slightly. It is
impossible
to
prove, to another person, that a creator does or does not exist. It
is
a
topic that you basically just have to believe one way or the other
and
be
comfortable in that because as of now it cannot be "proven" in a
manner
to
appease everyone.
Now, with that being said, it is a useless argument since neither
side
can
be wrong in their beliefs on the issue.

Neither side can be wrong with their beliefs, perhaps. But, as I've
hopefully pointed out in this thread, one can be wrong with their
reasoning
for adopting such a belief system. Like many mysteries, it's simply a
matter of weighing evidence and choosing the option which appears to
be
the
most plausible.

One can be wrong with their reasoning, on both sides, to the point of
being
blinded by their faith. I think that everyone can agree to that, and it
has
been pointed out. Someone who relies solely on science, which cannot be
"proved", seems foolish to those who believe in God.

i suppose that is the problem with scientifically illiterate people-- they
forget that the beauty part of science is that it can be, to the extent
that
anything can be, "proved".

Let's get a few things straight right off the bat here Mr Stahl.
Creationists can be and are scientifically minded. I know physicists that
are creationists and I know some that are evolutionists, and they even
coexist with mutual respect. Your insistence that creation has no basis in
science is wrong, much like your insistence that evolution is proven.
Neither is proven nor disproven, what we had been doing was exchanging
thoughts and ideas in a calm interesting fashion, until you came here and
spout your idiotic arguments.

And likewise those who
believe in God, which cannot be "proved", seems foolish to those who
rely
on
science. It would reason, although it is flawed as well, that a person
who
uses BOTH is bound to not be foolish and have the whole picture.

that makes no sense whatsoever, and elevates wishful thinking to the level
of observation and empiricism.

What doesn't make sense? There are 2 different thoughts there, both of which
make sense to me. You didn't seem to have a problem with is making sense
when it providing something to your argument.


But they
are usually more sure of their beliefs and not easily swayed. If you can
talk somebody into something, then someone can talk them out of it.

Unfortunately, most folks arrive at a decision before they
actually weigh the evidence. So then they search out evidence that
supports
their initial belief while ignoring that which doesn't support it.

True, for some people. There seems to be a debate in these types of
threads
that God and Science are mutually exclusive. They are not. There has
never,
to my knowledge, been evidence that a belief in God and the Bible defies
proven (not theoretical) science.

well, certain versions of the bible contain obvious and documented
scientific errors, so perhaps your knowledge needs updating...

Perhaps you would like to show evidence of that? Besides translations can in
some passages get things a bit off. The languages, Greek and Hebrew, that
the bible has been translated from are on the whole more complex than our
own. It is bound to have "errors" when our language lacks the complexity to
fully show the complete meaning or understanding. I suggest you should
update some of your knowledge. It would be similar to translating old Greek
plays and such to our modern language. Try as we might to find the right
word or words we can easily miss something due to basically the lack of
words to complete the understanding. But by your logic all the Greek plays
we have are inaccurate.


Likewise there has never been evidence to
support that believing in proven science means that you cannot believe
in
God. So it basically boils down to what each individual person chooses
to
believe.

Les

"Todd" wrote in message
news:%H2Ac.732471$Pk3.670598@pd7tw1no...
Everything happens "by chance". Or, more accurately, is dictated perhaps
by
the second law of thermodynamics. It's not exactly magic, folks...

Oh really?

What about the law of thermodynamics that states everything is in a
constant state of
decay?


a totally incorrect interpretation of thermodynamics.

Your guy Darwin insisted that life became more complex as time went by.

no he didn't.

A direct
contradiction of this IRREFUTABLE law. (Not theory ...


only if you lack basic high-school level physics and biology.

Talk about having faith in the impossible.

talk about having no brains...

"Doug" wrote in message
...
This is the wrong place to discuss this, so I'll just say that you are
correct in evolution threatens my faith. When evolution is proven,
the Bible is disproven, and I become an atheist. Explaining away
Genesis undermines the entire Bible. No creation, no god.


congratulations on becoming an atheist, then....

Right now, evidence does not fully support evolution.

actually, it does. in fact, it is observed, experimentally verified fact.

If evolution
were fact, we'd see a gradual change of species from one to another,
with increasing diversity as time passes.

which is precisely what is observed, both in the imperfect fossil record and
in the better-preserved genome.

Instead, the fossil record
is replete with zillions of instances of different species, with less
and less diversity as time passes.

what on earth are you talking about?

There are a very few instances
(Archeopteryx, platypus) that seem to show evolution, but the vast
majority shows distinct speciation, not gradual change.

there are quite a few examples of transitional fossil forms. moreover, the
genetics show exactly the gradual change you expect.

...and don't
forget speciation is a classification thought up by humans to explain
what they see. Many different species (I'm referring mostly to
invertebrates here) are in fact the same creatures, or "kind" if you
will.


ridiculous assertion. there is no such thing as a "kind" outside of the
bible.


Now I'm done (I hope), as this is really the wrong place. ...just
wanted to point out that the science does not fully support either
side,

sure it does. evolution is scientifically observed. creation is made up.

and creation makes more sense to many than the "magic" of
evolution.


creation only makes sense to the uneducated, sorry.

I'm still not happy with my subs. :-(


perhaps they can be improved via prayer?



On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 19:00:30 -0400, "MZ"
wrote:

I guess what I don't understand is this: how did evolution get brought
into this? What makes evolution and the existence of a supreme being
inconsistent with each other? Most Christians that I know don't espouse
a
literalist interpretation of the bible. A supreme being can indeed exist
and "create" a physical framework whereby evolution can occur. IMO, the
religious community is in for a rough ride if they keep insisting that
the
theory of evolution threatens their religion and must therefore be wrong.

"Todd" wrote in message
news:RW2Ac.732568$Pk3.462632@pd7tw1no...
MZ,

You wrote:

"It has been proven inaccurate in many more regards..."

I would direct you to what the great scientist Gallileo had to say on
this. I
paraphase: "The Bible and true science do not contradict each other. Where
there is a
perceived contradiction the answer is that we do not yet understand
exactly how it is that
they work together."


gee, i wonder why a guy who was being threatened with his life for heresy
would say something like that...?

"Todd" wrote in message
newsD4Ac.734379$Pk3.58952@pd7tw1no...
Well, since God created the laws of physics and upholds them to this day,
why couldn't he
operate outside of the laws he himself created?

"what evidence do you have that it actually happened?

I wasn't there so I must take that statement of Lot's wife on faith.

and a "grain" of salt.

But God wouldn't lie
to any of us.

of course. it's impossible for a figment of your imagination to do so.

It is impossible for him to sin. So, we believe what he says in scripture

"god" doesn't "say" anything. men wrote scriptures.


because we have examined the evidence he provides and found it to be true.

occasionally, but mostly we find it to be laughably false.

Thus we accept
as true those things which he states have happened.


lol, i hope you never have jury duty.

"Dan Erick" wrote in message
om...

The Stand to Reason site I the best I can direct you too.

I live

answersingenesis.org
drdino.com

also =)

Dan

yes, these sites are absolutely hilarious. i assume they're parodies, right?

"MZ" wrote in message
...
I don't dismiss stories of people being turned into pillars of salt.
Any
being great
enough to have created life, the universe and everything in it would
have
no problem
turning a human into a pillar of salt.

How do you reconcile this belief with the laws of physics? Or did the
laws
of physics somehow momentarily cease to be so that this trick could be
pulled off?

And, perhaps more importantly, what evidence do you have that it
actually
happened?

seeing how he set into motion the laws of physics (if you believe he
exist)
I think he could/can do anything he wants. he's not restricted like
man
is.

Which would require that you believe he temporarily disrupted the laws of
physics after already establishing them.

Do people really believe this? Do people truly believe he came down out
of
the sky, waved his magic wand, and turned someone into a pillar of salt?
Honestly?


as you can see from this thread, there are boundless wells of human
gullibility to draw from.

"Todd" wrote in message
news:PS2Ac.772434$Ig.356717@pd7tw2no...
Doug,

You wrote:

"Agnostics are much more honest with themselves and the world than are
atheists. Atheists refuse to admit that they subscribe to a
faith-based system. That's dishonest."

My view of agnostics is that they are less honest than atheists.
Atheists at least
take a stand. Agnostics, by definition, offer no conslusion on the matter
of whether God
exists or not. I suspect God has an easier time stomaching out and out
disbelief than he
does those so dishonest you won't even make a stand.
--

of course, like almost everything you've posted in this thread, this is
false and frankly stupid. agnosticism deals with beliefs about knowledge-
what is/is not "knowable". theism deals with belief in the existence of
gods. they're orthogonal. a great many people are agnostic atheists,
believing that it is impossible to know for certain whether gods exist
(especially given their vague, metaphysical definitions), but believe (in
the absence of evidence) that they do not. most people are probably agnostic
theists, who vaguely believe (still in the absence of evidence) that gods
exist, but realize that such a thing is impossible to prove.
the gnostics-- atheist or theist-- are absolutely convinced that they "know"
whether gods exist or not.

atheists do not subscribe to a "faith based system" unless they are gnostic,
taking it on faith that gods do not exist. an agnostic atheist simply
witholds belief in the absence of evidence, much like not believing there is
life on mars until shown otherwise.

"Doug" wrote in message
...
I really wasn't going to continue this discussion here, but oh well.

When you look objectively at geology, biology, and the fossil record,
there are inconsistencies with either view. Evolution is not proven
nor fully supported by observation.


actually it is. it is proven fact, observed and documented.


Since neither extreme can be (so far) scientifically proven,

except for the one that can....

both
extremes require faith.

or not.

Agnostics and religious people are the truely
honest ones.

except for the fact that gnosticism/theism are orthogonal and religious
people are only honest about making up gods....

Religious people admit to faith; agnostics lack faith
either way, so rely only on observation. To be an atheist also
requires faith. It's just that all atheists I've run across refuse to
admit it. That's dishonest.


no, it's just that you don't understand it. there is not necessarily faith
involved in being an atheist.


On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 21:22:55 GMT, "Todd" wrote:

Doug,

You wrote:

"Agnostics are much more honest with themselves and the world than
are
atheists. Atheists refuse to admit that they subscribe to a
faith-based system. That's dishonest."

My view of agnostics is that they are less honest than atheists.
Atheists at least
take a stand. Agnostics, by definition, offer no conslusion on the matter
of whether God
exists or not. I suspect God has an easier time stomaching out and out
disbelief than he
does those so dishonest you won't even make a stand.

"Les" wrote in message
...

"MZ" wrote in message
...
I agree, almost. Personally I would amend it slightly. It is
impossible
to
prove, to another person, that a creator does or does not exist. It is
a
topic that you basically just have to believe one way or the other and
be
comfortable in that because as of now it cannot be "proven" in a
manner
to
appease everyone.
Now, with that being said, it is a useless argument since neither side
can
be wrong in their beliefs on the issue.

Neither side can be wrong with their beliefs, perhaps. But, as I've
hopefully pointed out in this thread, one can be wrong with their
reasoning
for adopting such a belief system. Like many mysteries, it's simply a
matter of weighing evidence and choosing the option which appears to be
the
most plausible.

One can be wrong with their reasoning, on both sides, to the point of
being
blinded by their faith. I think that everyone can agree to that, and it
has
been pointed out. Someone who relies solely on science, which cannot be
"proved", seems foolish to those who believe in God.

i suppose that is the problem with scientifically illiterate people-- they
forget that the beauty part of science is that it can be, to the extent that
anything can be, "proved".

And likewise those who
believe in God, which cannot be "proved", seems foolish to those who rely
on
science. It would reason, although it is flawed as well, that a person who
uses BOTH is bound to not be foolish and have the whole picture.

that makes no sense whatsoever, and elevates wishful thinking to the level
of observation and empiricism.

But they
are usually more sure of their beliefs and not easily swayed. If you can
talk somebody into something, then someone can talk them out of it.

Unfortunately, most folks arrive at a decision before they
actually weigh the evidence. So then they search out evidence that
supports
their initial belief while ignoring that which doesn't support it.

True, for some people. There seems to be a debate in these types of
threads
that God and Science are mutually exclusive. They are not. There has
never,
to my knowledge, been evidence that a belief in God and the Bible defies
proven (not theoretical) science.

well, certain versions of the bible contain obvious and documented
scientific errors, so perhaps your knowledge needs updating...

Likewise there has never been evidence to
support that believing in proven science means that you cannot believe in
God. So it basically boils down to what each individual person chooses to
believe.


But we shall all find out the answer
when we die, so we can discuss who is right and who is wrong then.

Well, maybe we won't. If there isn't an afterlife, then we won't find
out.

Hmmm. Well if we do, I am sure it will be an interesting discussion.

BTW Mark, it is nice to have a discussion where ideas and thoughts can be
exchanged without resorting to name-calling, especially on this oftenly
heated topic.

Les