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#1
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Amplifier output varies in terms of source any resolution?
The similarly-titled thread about CD output has been moderately
interesting, but for me personally less so than I imagine for many people, for two reasons: i) most of my listening is to vinyl and tape, CDs come a poor third, and I can't say I've noticed any significant variation in output amongst the CDs that I do play ii) on the other hand, I /do/ notice a huge discrepancy between the output of my amp (Cambridge Audio 340A) when playing a CD and the output when playing tape or vinyl. By which I mean that on the 0-10 scale of my volume control, to achieve the same subjective volume that I typically want, I have to use a setting of only say 2 for CDs compared to say 5-6 for tape or vinyl. I took the amplifier back and got it exchanged twice before someone with more hi-fi knowledge than me finally told me that it's not an uncommon thing for manufacturers to do. On the assumption that most people these days will be listening to CDs most of the time, they "big up" the CD output. Is this true, or is there more to it than this? |
#3
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"Andy Spragg" wrote ...
The similarly-titled thread about CD output has been moderately interesting, but for me personally less so than I imagine for many people, for two reasons: i) most of my listening is to vinyl and tape, CDs come a poor third, and I can't say I've noticed any significant variation in output amongst the CDs that I do play ii) on the other hand, I /do/ notice a huge discrepancy between the output of my amp (Cambridge Audio 340A) when playing a CD and the output when playing tape or vinyl. By which I mean that on the 0-10 scale of my volume control, to achieve the same subjective volume that I typically want, I have to use a setting of only say 2 for CDs compared to say 5-6 for tape or vinyl. I took the amplifier back and got it exchanged twice before someone with more hi-fi knowledge than me finally told me that it's not an uncommon thing for manufacturers to do. On the assumption that most people these days will be listening to CDs most of the time, they "big up" the CD output. Is this true, or is there more to it than this? My characterization would be that there is LESS to it than all that. Most likely is that your CD player simply has a higher output voltage than your tape deck or the phono preamp. Given the relative age/era of the equipment this doesn't seem very surprising to me. If you find adjusting the knob tedious, you could put an attenuator ("pad") between the CD player and the input to your amplifier. If you make it yourself it might cost 10GBP if you use expensive connectors. The four resistors may even cost as much as 20 pence each. |
#4
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In article 1122729348.f69bb0f6467fa8cbfd5066d848ce9276@teran ews,
Andy Spragg wrote: I took the amplifier back and got it exchanged twice before someone with more hi-fi knowledge than me finally told me that it's not an uncommon thing for manufacturers to do. On the assumption that most people these days will be listening to CDs most of the time, they "big up" the CD output. Is this true, or is there more to it than this? Utter ****e. Whoever claimed that should not be listened to. The level differences are due to the CD player outputs being hotter than the nominal input level on your amp. Before you ask, the gear is not in any danger. Francois. |
#5
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ii) on the other hand, I /do/ notice a huge discrepancy between the output of my amp (Cambridge Audio 340A) when playing a CD and the output when playing tape or vinyl. By which I mean that on the 0-10 scale of my volume control, to achieve the same subjective volume that I typically want, I have to use a setting of only say 2 for CDs compared to say 5-6 for tape or vinyl. I took the amplifier back and got it exchanged twice before someone with more hi-fi knowledge than me finally told me that it's not an uncommon thing for manufacturers to do. On the assumption that most people these days will be listening to CDs most of the time, they "big up" the CD output. Is this true, or is there more to it than this? No, there's rather less :-) CD players tend to have higher output levels than other audio sources. |
#6
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"Kalman Rubinson" wrote in message ... On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:15:52 GMT, (Andy Spragg) wrote: ii) on the other hand, I /do/ notice a huge discrepancy between the output of my amp (Cambridge Audio 340A) when playing a CD and the output when playing tape or vinyl. By which I mean that on the 0-10 scale of my volume control, to achieve the same subjective volume that I typically want, I have to use a setting of only say 2 for CDs compared to say 5-6 for tape or vinyl. I took the amplifier back and got it exchanged twice before someone with more hi-fi knowledge than me finally told me that it's not an uncommon thing for manufacturers to do. Wow, the sales droids must have been *really* stupid if they gave you a replacement for the same non existent fault, TWICE! On the assumption that most people these days will be listening to CDs most of the time, they "big up" the CD output. That's silly. The only difference is that the phono stage has lower gain than your pickup needs to give equal output. In fact it is all due to the CD "standard" output of 2V for Dfs. This was adopted at the very beginning to allow for the extra dynamic range of CD. The analog "standard" was usually 0.775V. Unfortunately the loudness "wars" between mastering engineers means that most CD's have less dynamic range than the old vinyl, and it is compressed right up to the maximum level. So CD will always be louder than analog, at the same volume control setting. Some CD players have adjustable output level, if yours doesn't then you can either use the volume control as you already do, or add an attenuator in the CD player o/p to amplifier i/p connection. Many amps also have an attenuator built in for volume reduction, like answering the phone. This can be useful for getting better volume control precision with CD at low levels. However it can cause problems if you forget and turn it off with the volume control well up. MrT. |
#7
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"Andy Spragg" wrote in
message news:1122729348.f69bb0f6467fa8cbfd5066d848ce9276@t eranews The similarly-titled thread about CD output has been moderately interesting, but for me personally less so than I imagine for many people, for two reasons: i) most of my listening is to vinyl and tape, CDs come a poor third, and I can't say I've noticed any significant variation in output amongst the CDs that I do play. From this I conclude that you are either deaf or are trolling or both. The CD format is the best-sounding and most exact format in general use. LPs and analog tapes at best are rough approximations of recordings. I presume that you've lost enough high frequency sensitivity in your ears that you can't hear the steady audible noise in analog tapes and LPs. ii) on the other hand, I /do/ notice a huge discrepancy between the output of my amp (Cambridge Audio 340A) when playing a CD and the output when playing tape or vinyl. By which I mean that on the 0-10 scale of my volume control, to achieve the same subjective volume that I typically want, I have to use a setting of only say 2 for CDs compared to say 5-6 for tape or vinyl. It's well-known that CD players as a rule have higher output than most other audio components. Since the CD format has vastly greater dynamic range than LP or analog tape, they need to have higher output to keep their noise level out of the mud. I took the amplifier back and got it exchanged twice before someone with more hi-fi knowledge than me finally told me that it's not an uncommon thing for manufacturers to do. Virtually every CD player ever made has a full-output voltage of 2 volts or more. Tuners have outputs of 1 volt or less. LP playback is a bit more difficult to characterize because usually an internal preamp is involved. Consumer tape machines generally have outputs of 1 volt or less. On the assumption that most people these days will be listening to CDs most of the time, they "big up" the CD output. This whole discussion is very naive because it does not differentiate between the capabilities of various media as compared to how they are used. When the CD format was introduced it was well-known that it had the potential for vastly better frequency response (accuracy of timbre) and dynamic range (accurate handling of loud and soft passages). Whereas LP and analog tape have clearly irresolvable clearly audible problems with both. For example, prior to the CD format it was common to compress or otherwise attenuate peak levels to avoid mushy sounds with tapes, and shattering or gritty sound with LPs. In essence, the greater inherent dynamic range of the CD format enabled peak levels such as during crescendoes to finally be presented to the listener without further manipulation, while presenting the softest passages without audible hiss in the same recording. Since higher peaks were possible, it was decided to design CD players so that their highest output levels were as a rule higher than those that were then common with LP and tape players. However, just because a format is capable of higher dynamic range, there's no guarantee that it is actually exploited during the production process. Today it is common to make recordings that have virtually no dynamic range. When played on a CD player, they merely sound louder. is true, or is there more to it than this? Given how much hearing acuity you've obviously lost based on your preference for highly substandard media, I don't know why you worry about what you hear. |
#8
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"Andy Spragg" wrote in message news:1122729348.f69bb0f6467fa8cbfd5066d848ce9276@t eranews... I took the amplifier back and got it exchanged twice before someone with more hi-fi knowledge than me finally told me that it's not an uncommon thing for manufacturers to do. On the assumption that most people these days will be listening to CDs most of the time, they "big up" the CD output. Is this true, or is there more to it than this? Well, you could check for yourself, by connecting your tape deck to the amplifier's CD inputs, and your CD player to the amplifier's tape inputs. This will show you whether the difference in volume is caused by the amplifier, or by differences in output levels of the CD player and tape machine. I am confident you'll find the difference is that the CD player and and tape machine have different output levels; it's nothing to do with the amplifier. Tim |
#9
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On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:05:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: Virtually every CD player ever made has a full-output voltage of 2 volts or more. Tuners have outputs of 1 volt or less. LP playback is a bit more difficult to characterize because usually an internal preamp is involved. Consumer tape machines generally have outputs of 1 volt or less. And I often wonder if some criticisms of CD as being harsh sounding are caused by poor headroom on the amplifier's inputs. Professional audio knows that correct gain structure is the key to quality recording and playback. But even the most expensive audiophool gear seems to admit no concept of this. |
#10
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"Laurence Payne"
wrote in message On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:05:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Virtually every CD player ever made has a full-output voltage of 2 volts or more. Tuners have outputs of 1 volt or less. LP playback is a bit more difficult to characterize because usually an internal preamp is involved. Consumer tape machines generally have outputs of 1 volt or less. And I often wonder if some criticisms of CD as being harsh sounding are caused by poor headroom on the amplifier's inputs. Possible in some cases. Professional audio knows that correct gain structure is the key to quality recording and playback. But even the most expensive audiophool gear seems to admit no concept of this. Most audio gear, audiophool, consumer or pro seems to concentrate level controls near the input to the device. This addresses a lot of concerns about dynamic range. I think that most complaints about CDs sounding harsh have other sources, some non-technical. |
#11
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On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 07:05:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "Andy Spragg" wrote in i) most of my listening is to vinyl and tape, CDs come a poor third, and I can't say I've noticed any significant variation in output amongst the CDs that I do play. From this I conclude that you are either deaf or are trolling or both. And from this I conclude that you should read a bit more carefully. Or (grudgingly) that I should write a bit more carefully. "most of my listening is to vinyl and tape, CDs come a poor third" - i.e. they form a small minority of my total listening hours. Seemed pretty unambiguous to me. "I can't say I've noticed any significant variation in output amongst the CDs that I do play" Try as I might, I can't misinterpret this. It's well-known that CD players as a rule have higher output than most other audio components. Not by me, it wasn't. But now it is. Thanks. (irrelevant remainder snipped) |
#12
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In article 1122729348.f69bb0f6467fa8cbfd5066d848ce9276@teran ews,
Andy Spragg wrote: I took the amplifier back and got it exchanged twice before someone with more hi-fi knowledge than me finally told me that it's not an uncommon thing for manufacturers to do. On the assumption that most people these days will be listening to CDs most of the time, they "big up" the CD output. Is this true, or is there more to it than this? There may be more to it than this. Back in the old pre-CD days, there was a de-facto standard for "line-level" signals. Full-scale, maximum-output voltage was usually close to 1 volt peak-to-peak. When CDs came along, CD players used a new standard - full-scale line-level output is commonly 2 volts peak-to-peak. This is 6 dB louder than the older standard - quite perceptible, although somewhat short of the 10 dB difference which people seem to perceive as "twice as loud." I've never heard a definitive answer as to why the standard was changed. My guess is that it was done in part due to the "louder sounds better" issue, and part to the fact that CDs have a lot of dynamic range capability, and that the 1-volt peak-to-peak standard level would have put the lower end of a CD's dynamic range down below the hum-and-hiss noise floor of a lot of consumer electronics components. The higher 2-volt level did cause some problems for some older preamps and amplifiers - it was enough to cause them to "clip", and made the CDs sound rather harsh and nasty. I'd guess that your CD player is putting out a 2-volt signal, that your phono preamp and tape deck are putting out 1-volt signals, and that you're simply hearing the difference. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#13
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"Dave Platt" wrote in message ... I've never heard a definitive answer as to why the standard was changed. You haven't looked too hard then. My guess is that it was done in part due to the "louder sounds better" issue, and part to the fact that CDs have a lot of dynamic range capability, and that the 1-volt peak-to-peak standard level would have put the lower end of a CD's dynamic range down below the hum-and-hiss noise floor of a lot of consumer electronics components. The latter is the case. Loudness wars came about a decade later. MrT. |
#14
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