In 1965 I joined the HP Sales Group in Canada. Part of the training was
in Palo Alto where about 20 of us from all over North America met with
Carl Mahurin. Carl was in charge of sales training & reputed to have
been a classmate of both Hewlett & Packard, not the person you would
want to offend if you valued a career at HP.

For a starter in his session Carl asked to have our hands raised to let
him know how much experience we had as engineers. As he called out one,
two, three & then on up to five & ten years & so on it was obvious there
was a lot of experience in that room. His next question was =93Who in thi=
s
room has any sales training at all?=94 I think perhaps two or three of
the guys had any exposure to sales at all.

Over the next 30 years I attended many sessions devoted to sales
training at both HP & R&S. What successful sales really amounts to is
interpersonal relationships & psychology. There is a significant
difference between taking an order & actively soliciting someone=92s
business. If you are to be successful at hitech sales you will need to
be a lot more than a technical hotshot.

What all this leads too is a couple of points I believe to be important
to that success.

WE, all of us, are not who we think we are. We are who others believe us
to be.
Each of us has some kind of picture in our mind of who we are, but that
may not be the case at all. It is important to discover how others
perceive us. If we fail to recognize how others see us than success may
not come.

My opinion may not be the same as yours or that of others. Diversity of
opinion is one of the most important factors the human race has. As an
obvious example of what happens when opinion is suppressed we need look
no further than world affairs. In many countries free thought has been
subdued to the point that those jurisdictions are seen as backward. You
don=92t have to wonder long where those places are. They are in the news
continuously. If my opinion in respect to some subject is different than
yours it is not an attack on your character, but that is the way many of
us perceive it to be. We all need to get past that.

In an earlier post I had questioned Phil A=92s qualifications. I had
before that commented my belief that Phil was technically qualified but
perhaps needed some work otherwise. My post was not meant to set a
requirement of any kind to contribute to RAT as mentioned by Andre in
his post. There are many who have learned their craft well through hands
on experience without benefit of a formal higher education.
I would include in that group Patrick T & Fred N as well as many others.
And I was one of them. I didn=92t get to be a PEng until I was 32 years
old by which time I had acquired a lot of practical experience.

I would like to propose a truce with Phil A, Andre & the others in RAT
so that we can get back to tubes & things technical. The past couple of
months has been a terrible bore. Whenever I looked in it was a lot of
guys trying to out bull**** each other. Bad News. Is there anyone out
there who would like to help fix it?

Cheers to All, John Stewart

"John Stewart" wrote in message
...
In 1965 I joined the HP Sales Group in Canada. Part of the training was
in Palo Alto where about 20 of us from all over North America met with
Carl Mahurin. Carl was in charge of sales training & reputed to have
been a classmate of both Hewlett & Packard, not the person you would
want to offend if you valued a career at HP.

For a starter in his session Carl asked to have our hands raised to let
him know how much experience we had as engineers. As he called out one,
two, three & then on up to five & ten years & so on it was obvious there
was a lot of experience in that room. His next question was "Who in this
room has any sales training at all?" I think perhaps two or three of
the guys had any exposure to sales at all.

Over the next 30 years I attended many sessions devoted to sales
training at both HP & R&S. What successful sales really amounts to is
interpersonal relationships & psychology. There is a significant
difference between taking an order & actively soliciting someone's
business. If you are to be successful at hitech sales you will need to
be a lot more than a technical hotshot.

What all this leads too is a couple of points I believe to be important
to that success.

WE, all of us, are not who we think we are. We are who others believe us
to be.
Each of us has some kind of picture in our mind of who we are, but that
may not be the case at all. It is important to discover how others
perceive us. If we fail to recognize how others see us than success may
not come.

My opinion may not be the same as yours or that of others. Diversity of
opinion is one of the most important factors the human race has. As an
obvious example of what happens when opinion is suppressed we need look
no further than world affairs. In many countries free thought has been
subdued to the point that those jurisdictions are seen as backward. You
don't have to wonder long where those places are. They are in the news
continuously. If my opinion in respect to some subject is different than
yours it is not an attack on your character, but that is the way many of
us perceive it to be. We all need to get past that.

In an earlier post I had questioned Phil A's qualifications. I had
before that commented my belief that Phil was technically qualified but
perhaps needed some work otherwise. My post was not meant to set a
requirement of any kind to contribute to RAT as mentioned by Andre in
his post. There are many who have learned their craft well through hands
on experience without benefit of a formal higher education.
I would include in that group Patrick T & Fred N as well as many others.
And I was one of them. I didn't get to be a PEng until I was 32 years
old by which time I had acquired a lot of practical experience.

I would like to propose a truce with Phil A, Andre & the others in RAT
so that we can get back to tubes & things technical. The past couple of
months has been a terrible bore. Whenever I looked in it was a lot of
guys trying to out bull**** each other. Bad News. Is there anyone out
there who would like to help fix it?

Cheers to All, John Stewart


***** smart proposal.

--
--
.................................................. ........................
Choky
Prodanovic Aleksandar
YU

"don't use force, "don't use force,
use a larger hammer" use a larger tube
- Choky and IST"
- ZM
.................................................. ...........................

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 07:33:14 -0500, John Stewart
wrote:

The past couple of
months has been a terrible bore. Whenever I looked in it was a lot of
guys trying to out bull**** each other. Bad News. Is there anyone out
there who would like to help fix it?

Cheers to All, John Stewart

Thanks to filters, I see mainly technical, on-topic posts. It is up to
each person to fix it for themselves. There is no global fix. There
are some people with whom you cannot reason.

Phil W.

John Stewart wrote:

In 1965 I joined the HP Sales Group in Canada. Part of the training was
in Palo Alto where about 20 of us from all over North America met with
Carl Mahurin. Carl was in charge of sales training & reputed to have
been a classmate of both Hewlett & Packard, not the person you would
want to offend if you valued a career at HP.

For a starter in his session Carl asked to have our hands raised to let
him know how much experience we had as engineers. As he called out one,
two, three & then on up to five & ten years & so on it was obvious there
was a lot of experience in that room. His next question was “Who in this
room has any sales training at all?” I think perhaps two or three of
the guys had any exposure to sales at all.

Over the next 30 years I attended many sessions devoted to sales
training at both HP & R&S. What successful sales really amounts to is
interpersonal relationships & psychology. There is a significant
difference between taking an order & actively soliciting someone’s
business. If you are to be successful at hitech sales you will need to
be a lot more than a technical hotshot.

What all this leads too is a couple of points I believe to be important
to that success.

WE, all of us, are not who we think we are. We are who others believe us
to be.
Each of us has some kind of picture in our mind of who we are, but that
may not be the case at all. It is important to discover how others
perceive us. If we fail to recognize how others see us than success may
not come.

My opinion may not be the same as yours or that of others. Diversity of
opinion is one of the most important factors the human race has. As an
obvious example of what happens when opinion is suppressed we need look
no further than world affairs. In many countries free thought has been
subdued to the point that those jurisdictions are seen as backward. You
don’t have to wonder long where those places are. They are in the news
continuously. If my opinion in respect to some subject is different than
yours it is not an attack on your character, but that is the way many of
us perceive it to be. We all need to get past that.

In an earlier post I had questioned Phil A’s qualifications. I had
before that commented my belief that Phil was technically qualified but
perhaps needed some work otherwise. My post was not meant to set a
requirement of any kind to contribute to RAT as mentioned by Andre in
his post. There are many who have learned their craft well through hands
on experience without benefit of a formal higher education.
I would include in that group Patrick T & Fred N as well as many others.
And I was one of them. I didn’t get to be a PEng until I was 32 years
old by which time I had acquired a lot of practical experience.

I would like to propose a truce with Phil A, Andre & the others in RAT
so that we can get back to tubes & things technical. The past couple of
months has been a terrible bore. Whenever I looked in it was a lot of
guys trying to out bull**** each other. Bad News. Is there anyone out
there who would like to help fix it?

Cheers to All, John Stewart

I can say your post is interesting and well minded,
and if you can convince Phil Allison or Andre Jute to drastically
change their obnoxious behaviour, then you deserve a medal.

They will of course think I am obnoxious for saying that.

I will eat my PC if either of them carries on
with 20 replies to technical questions during the next fortnight without any
name calling,
foul language, attrocious lies about my business, slander,
etc, etc, which they have used continually to
destroy RAT.

On the other hand, it seems many who used to come here for quiet discourse
about tubes in a public arena, un fetted with a moderator,
have left to join one of the many little
groups now spread across the Net, which simply weren't there before
the Net became mainstream, and accessable by nearly every western country
person if they wanted.
Those who have left enjoy the quiet forums free of the loud mouths who
insult someone for the slightest issue, which is undeserved.

If a lot more people were brave enough to raise more technical issues here,
and immune to the BS peddled by Jute and Allison,
then we'd survive better, but it seems ppl don't see that as a solution.
That they should all resist the antics of Jute and Allison is an unrealistic
expectation.

The debates in national parliments around the globe continue to be bear
pits,
where the meek and mild personas get crushed and ground down by the bullies,

with little real debate about issues lest party lines and party stances get
upset.
Although such parliments are rowdy places, the stream of vitriol from Jute
and Allison
wouldn't be tolerated for an hour.
The Net's public arenas are public places,
and folks are free to post without any consideration for the
effect on the group.
Its a wonder that wev'e had such untroubled times during the time I have
been here.

Meanwhile, folks know where I am, and are free to email me privately about
matters of a technical nature.
I answer quite a few emails each week.
They are free to repost such emails to each other in their private forums.

I have not got around to joining in at some of these forums myself yet,
but one thing for sure, the only ppl here I have found to be obnoxious are
Jute and Allison,
so I think I'd have no trouble finding elsewhere to post, but also keeping
an eye
on what happens here.

Meanwhile, to all the folks who I have come to like, enjoy, and respect,
have a great day.

Patrick Turner.

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...


John Stewart wrote:

In 1965 I joined the HP Sales Group in Canada. Part of the training was
in Palo Alto where about 20 of us from all over North America met with
Carl Mahurin. Carl was in charge of sales training & reputed to have
been a classmate of both Hewlett & Packard, not the person you would
want to offend if you valued a career at HP.

For a starter in his session Carl asked to have our hands raised to let
him know how much experience we had as engineers. As he called out one,
two, three & then on up to five & ten years & so on it was obvious there
was a lot of experience in that room. His next question was "Who in this
room has any sales training at all?" I think perhaps two or three of
the guys had any exposure to sales at all.

Over the next 30 years I attended many sessions devoted to sales
training at both HP & R&S. What successful sales really amounts to is
interpersonal relationships & psychology. There is a significant
difference between taking an order & actively soliciting someone's
business. If you are to be successful at hitech sales you will need to
be a lot more than a technical hotshot.

What all this leads too is a couple of points I believe to be important
to that success.

WE, all of us, are not who we think we are. We are who others believe us
to be.
Each of us has some kind of picture in our mind of who we are, but that
may not be the case at all. It is important to discover how others
perceive us. If we fail to recognize how others see us than success may
not come.

My opinion may not be the same as yours or that of others. Diversity of
opinion is one of the most important factors the human race has. As an
obvious example of what happens when opinion is suppressed we need look
no further than world affairs. In many countries free thought has been
subdued to the point that those jurisdictions are seen as backward. You
don't have to wonder long where those places are. They are in the news
continuously. If my opinion in respect to some subject is different than
yours it is not an attack on your character, but that is the way many of
us perceive it to be. We all need to get past that.

In an earlier post I had questioned Phil A's qualifications. I had
before that commented my belief that Phil was technically qualified but
perhaps needed some work otherwise. My post was not meant to set a
requirement of any kind to contribute to RAT as mentioned by Andre in
his post. There are many who have learned their craft well through hands
on experience without benefit of a formal higher education.
I would include in that group Patrick T & Fred N as well as many others.
And I was one of them. I didn't get to be a PEng until I was 32 years
old by which time I had acquired a lot of practical experience.

I would like to propose a truce with Phil A, Andre & the others in RAT
so that we can get back to tubes & things technical. The past couple of
months has been a terrible bore. Whenever I looked in it was a lot of
guys trying to out bull**** each other. Bad News. Is there anyone out
there who would like to help fix it?

Cheers to All, John Stewart


Five paragraphs tells me that John is Hewlet Packard Man and we must respect
him for that. Patrick Turner is Australian. I am Jim and I am British....
Phil is a prick and Andre is ridiculous....

Most of us don't give a **** what you post up here.. We extract the useful
stuff.. We ignore the ****... We accept the swearing and the insults and
the NG rolls along......

We are all old enough to pick out the useful stuff from the CRAP... We don't
need any help.!!!!


Kind regards
jim












I can say your post is interesting and well minded,
and if you can convince Phil Allison or Andre Jute to drastically
change their obnoxious behaviour, then you deserve a medal.

They will of course think I am obnoxious for saying that.

I will eat my PC if either of them carries on
with 20 replies to technical questions during the next fortnight without
any
name calling,
foul language, attrocious lies about my business, slander,
etc, etc, which they have used continually to
destroy RAT.

On the other hand, it seems many who used to come here for quiet discourse
about tubes in a public arena, un fetted with a moderator,
have left to join one of the many little
groups now spread across the Net, which simply weren't there before
the Net became mainstream, and accessable by nearly every western country
person if they wanted.
Those who have left enjoy the quiet forums free of the loud mouths who
insult someone for the slightest issue, which is undeserved.

If a lot more people were brave enough to raise more technical issues
here,
and immune to the BS peddled by Jute and Allison,
then we'd survive better, but it seems ppl don't see that as a solution.
That they should all resist the antics of Jute and Allison is an
unrealistic
expectation.

The debates in national parliments around the globe continue to be bear
pits,
where the meek and mild personas get crushed and ground down by the
bullies,

with little real debate about issues lest party lines and party stances
get
upset.
Although such parliments are rowdy places, the stream of vitriol from Jute
and Allison
wouldn't be tolerated for an hour.
The Net's public arenas are public places,
and folks are free to post without any consideration for the
effect on the group.
Its a wonder that wev'e had such untroubled times during the time I have
been here.

Meanwhile, folks know where I am, and are free to email me privately about
matters of a technical nature.
I answer quite a few emails each week.
They are free to repost such emails to each other in their private forums.

I have not got around to joining in at some of these forums myself yet,
but one thing for sure, the only ppl here I have found to be obnoxious are
Jute and Allison,
so I think I'd have no trouble finding elsewhere to post, but also keeping
an eye
on what happens here.

Meanwhile, to all the folks who I have come to like, enjoy, and respect,
have a great day.

Patrick Turner.

"John Stewart" wrote

"Diversity of opinion is one of the most important factors the human
race has. As an obvious example of what happens when opinion is
suppressed we need look no further than world affairs. In many
countries free thought has been subdued to the point that those
jurisdictions are seen as backward. You don't have to wonder long
where those places are."

Wherever you come from, presumably. Suppression appears to be your
objective.

USA?

Why do you want to impose your opinion of good behaviour on the
world? Can't you appreciate the preposterous irony of your position?

There has been more technical discussion recently than for a long
time. Check the common fate a few months ago if someone outside the
clique asked a "stupid" question. Point out one important thread
that you have found genuinely useful over the last couple of years.

If you just want to chat with your mates, you should accept that
this is a public forum. You can't expect to have it to yourselves.

You are capable, too, of rudeness.

Everything you refer to was predictable, and predicted several
times, over the last couple of years. Petty commercial interests
will always generate petty commercial competition. Cliques build
walls. Once everyone is looking inwards, no one spots the
approaching riders until the wind begins to howl.

Can you believe that there is someone here who believes he is
preaching a sermon from a pulpit in a church? Just take a break for
a second, pinch yourself, think about it, this is rec.audio.tubes:
it's a recreational group where people can talk about valves and
related issues. How is that possible with some daft *******
preaching all the time from a pulpit, who thinks it's a church?

Perhaps you might consider a course in elementary freedom?

cheers, Ian


in message ...
In 1965 I joined the HP Sales Group in Canada. Part of the training
was
in Palo Alto where about 20 of us from all over North America met
with
Carl Mahurin. Carl was in charge of sales training & reputed to have
been a classmate of both Hewlett & Packard, not the person you would
want to offend if you valued a career at HP.

For a starter in his session Carl asked to have our hands raised to
let
him know how much experience we had as engineers. As he called out
one,
two, three & then on up to five & ten years & so on it was obvious
there
was a lot of experience in that room. His next question was "Who in
this
room has any sales training at all?" I think perhaps two or three
of
the guys had any exposure to sales at all.

Over the next 30 years I attended many sessions devoted to sales
training at both HP & R&S. What successful sales really amounts to
is
interpersonal relationships & psychology. There is a significant
difference between taking an order & actively soliciting someone's
business. If you are to be successful at hitech sales you will need
to
be a lot more than a technical hotshot.

What all this leads too is a couple of points I believe to be
important
to that success.

WE, all of us, are not who we think we are. We are who others
believe us
to be.
Each of us has some kind of picture in our mind of who we are, but
that
may not be the case at all. It is important to discover how others
perceive us. If we fail to recognize how others see us than success
may
not come.

My opinion may not be the same as yours or that of others. They are
in the news
continuously. If my opinion in respect to some subject is different
than
yours it is not an attack on your character, but that is the way
many of
us perceive it to be. We all need to get past that.

In an earlier post I had questioned Phil A's qualifications. I had
before that commented my belief that Phil was technically qualified
but
perhaps needed some work otherwise. My post was not meant to set a
requirement of any kind to contribute to RAT as mentioned by Andre
in
his post. There are many who have learned their craft well through
hands
on experience without benefit of a formal higher education.
I would include in that group Patrick T & Fred N as well as many
others.
And I was one of them. I didn't get to be a PEng until I was 32
years
old by which time I had acquired a lot of practical experience.

I would like to propose a truce with Phil A, Andre & the others in
RAT
so that we can get back to tubes & things technical. The past couple
of
months has been a terrible bore. Whenever I looked in it was a lot
of
guys trying to out bull**** each other. Bad News. Is there anyone
out
there who would like to help fix it?

Cheers to All, John Stewart

Patrick Turner wrote:

Those who have left enjoy the quiet forums free of the loud mouths who
insult someone for the slightest issue, which is undeserved.

Oh...you must mean the smartass ****s who never miss an

opportunity to badmouth America.

Damn, wonder who *they* could be...


Lord Valve
American

Surprise me LV . . . . write about something regarding tubes.



From: Lord Valve
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.audio.tubes
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:42:26 GMT
Subject: RAT Wasteland



Patrick Turner wrote:

Those who have left enjoy the quiet forums free of the loud mouths who
insult someone for the slightest issue, which is undeserved.

Oh...you must mean the smartass ****s who never miss an

opportunity to badmouth America.

Damn, wonder who *they* could be...


Lord Valve
American

Hello Ian- I am surprised & somewhat dismayed at your sharp response
to my post since my objective was to try for peace rather than even more

war. However, your response does demonstrate well one of the points
I was trying to make, that being diversity of opinion.

Ian Iveson wrote:

"John Stewart" wrote

"Diversity of opinion is one of the most important factors the human
race has. As an obvious example of what happens when opinion is
suppressed we need look no further than world affairs. In many
countries free thought has been subdued to the point that those
jurisdictions are seen as backward. You don't have to wonder long
where those places are."

Wherever you come from, presumably. Suppression appears to be your
objective.

When I referred to suppressed opinion I was referring to many of the
countries in SW Asia. That would include places like Iraq, Iran
& Pakistan. They have failed to separate the state from religion.
That seems to cause many problems for the populace.

USA?

I am a Canadian, although early in my career I considered a move
to the US. I had a job offer with the Digital Computer Lab at the
U of Illinois, but decided to stay in Canada.

In one of Phil's earlier posts he makes the point that Aussies & Kiwis
hate
each other. I find that hard to believe, in particular with the common
folk.
Seems to me they fought side by side in WW2. Phil also said
by way of a comparison that Canadians hate the Yanks. Again, that is a
truly false assumption, although we may not always agree with their
politics.
But you will find many Americans who are in disagreement with their
present politics as well.

Why do you want to impose your opinion of good behaviour on the
world? Can't you appreciate the preposterous irony of your position?

First of all I am not trying to impose anything. Just a suggestion that
we
could all accomplish more without the flak.

There has been more technical discussion recently than for a long
time. Check the common fate a few months ago if someone outside the
clique asked a "stupid" question. Point out one important thread
that you have found genuinely useful over the last couple of years.

Ian, I recall well our pleasant exchange a while ago with reference to
your "Perverse Circlotron". I was so impressed with your effort that I
have kept it for reference in one of my binders. As well, I still have
the responses Patrick T & Tim in the file. I just had another look
in order to refresh my memory. Your ideas in that instance were
well considered & presented. In general, whenever I looked at your
posts I have enjoyed them.

If you just want to chat with your mates, you should accept that
this is a public forum. You can't expect to have it to yourselves.

You are capable, too, of rudeness.

You are absolutely correct. How does one respond after
being insulted a few times as I have recently been. But now I am
trying to extend an olive branch to Phil.

Everything you refer to was predictable, and predicted several
times, over the last couple of years. Petty commercial interests
will always generate petty commercial competition. Cliques build
walls. Once everyone is looking inwards, no one spots the
approaching riders until the wind begins to howl.

Not sure where you are going in that paragraph!!!

Can you believe that there is someone here who believes he is
preaching a sermon from a pulpit in a church? Just take a break for
a second, pinch yourself, think about it, this is rec.audio.tubes:
it's a recreational group where people can talk about valves and
related issues. How is that possible with some daft *******
preaching all the time from a pulpit, who thinks it's a church?

I certainly had no intention of preaching to anyone. I brought up the
sales training thing since it included information about all of us
that I did not invent. The two points to which I alluded are well known
to the kind of folks that study that kind of thing. Not my theory, but
I can assure everyone that these aspects of people are not BS.

Perhaps you might consider a course in elementary freedom?

When you are prepared to preside over that, let me be the first
to join. In the meantime I think we should invite MDHJWH to
tell us what really makes us tick. I would bet she has some
really great information that would benefit us all!!!

Again, Cheers to All, John Stewart

cheers, Ian

Lord Valve wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Those who have left enjoy the quiet forums free of the loud mouths who
insult someone for the slightest issue, which is undeserved.

Oh...you must mean the smartass ****s who never miss an

opportunity to badmouth America.

Damn, wonder who *they* could be...

Lord Valve
American

And with such a self righteous attitude like that,
is it any wonder so many people around the world hate America?

Most of my best friends on the Net are american,
and luckily, they don't have tunnel vision about their alleged
superiority, and they have heard what Christ said, "wicked are the self
righteous..."

Have a good day Mr Valve,

Patrick Turner.

In one of Phil's earlier posts he makes the point that Aussies & Kiwis
hate
each other. I find that hard to believe, in particular with the common
folk.

The Aussies and New Zealanders don't hate each other, and
have had many things in common for 200 years.
The two countries have fought alongside each other at war,
and there is a fair amount of intermarriage acoss the Tasman,
and if anything, New Zealand feels like home to an aussie and vice versa.

But on the football field, its a different story, and the teams would try
to kill each other were it not for mutual respect for rules and
an umpires decision, something Phil Allison isn't real use to at all.
He has got his wires utterly crossed up over the relationship
between the peoples of the two countries.


Seems to me they fought side by side in WW2. Phil also said
by way of a comparison that Canadians hate the Yanks. Again, that is a
truly false assumption, although we may not always agree with their
politics.
But you will find many Americans who are in disagreement with their
present politics as well.

Why do you want to impose your opinion of good behaviour on the
world? Can't you appreciate the preposterous irony of your position?

Ian wouldn't like a moderator either.
Not many people do.


First of all I am not trying to impose anything. Just a suggestion that
we
could all accomplish more without the flak.

Before Allison and Jute arrived recently, there wasn't much flak.

,,,,,,,

How does one respond after
being insulted a few times as I have recently been. But now I am
trying to extend an olive branch to Phil.

Indeed, how, when he'd love to dance on your corpse?



Everything you refer to was predictable, and predicted several
times, over the last couple of years. Petty commercial interests
will always generate petty commercial competition. Cliques build
walls. Once everyone is looking inwards, no one spots the
approaching riders until the wind begins to howl.

Not sure where you are going in that paragraph!!!

And nor am I.
Ian pulls out this utter BS from time to time when he
says I am acting commercially in a NG, and
every thing I say is stained.
I think he'd like to have some commercial activity with some audio business,

and he could be sour that he hasn't got an audio business established,
like some of us here have.



Can you believe that there is someone here who believes he is
preaching a sermon from a pulpit in a church? Just take a break for
a second, pinch yourself, think about it, this is rec.audio.tubes:
it's a recreational group where people can talk about valves and
related issues. How is that possible with some daft *******
preaching all the time from a pulpit, who thinks it's a church?

Now who is preaching?



I certainly had no intention of preaching to anyone. I brought up the
sales training thing since it included information about all of us
that I did not invent. The two points to which I alluded are well known
to the kind of folks that study that kind of thing. Not my theory, but
I can assure everyone that these aspects of people are not BS.

Keep up the sermons John, and don't worry about the Ian's of this world
preaching at you to stop preaching.
At least Ian has the decency not to get foul mouthed, and banal,
and anal whenn he objects to what is said in a public debate, such as this
one
we are having now.


Perhaps you might consider a course in elementary freedom?

When you are prepared to preside over that, let me be the first
to join. In the meantime I think we should invite MDHJWH to
tell us what really makes us tick. I would bet she has some
really great information that would benefit us all!!!

By her admissions, the genteel lady may well have a lot to say about men,
and the workings of their mind, since so many have rested their weary heads
beside her in the flow of a sensual and erotic transaction, something
many wives are incapable of, but nevertheless, I remain
unsure as to her real understanding of men, or women,
when it comes to politics, human nature, behaviour in news groups.
Predictably, a couple of the folk here have lept upon her character,
calling here the worst of names, but the the insults have rolled off like
water from a duck's back, whilst she remains secure in the knowledge
that she can put a smile on far more faces than Jute or Allison ever could.
I think she would feel her dignity and serenity would be seriously disturbed
by
continuous dealing with Jute and Allison, because she doesn't suffer fools
gladly.

Patrick Turner.



Again, Cheers to All, John Stewart

cheers, Ian

Jon Yaeger wrote in message ...
Surprise me LV . . . . write about something regarding tubes.



From: Lord Valve
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.audio.tubes
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:42:26 GMT
Subject: RAT Wasteland



Patrick Turner wrote:

Those who have left enjoy the quiet forums free of the loud mouths who
insult someone for the slightest issue, which is undeserved.

Oh...you must mean the smartass ****s who never miss an

opportunity to badmouth America.

Damn, wonder who *they* could be...


Lord Valve
American





Perhaps someone with enough brains to question authority..."Patriotism
is the last refuge of a scoundrel"....Mark Twain
Roger, from the Republic of Vermont 1791

Anonymous Sender wrote:

) wrote:
I would like to propose a truce with Phil A, Andre the others in RAT
so that we can get back to tubes things technical.

I dont speak for Phil. But from me of course you can have a truce, John. In return for it I want the same considerations I wanted when this nonsense started.

1. Not to have the Tacky Turner Trolls invade and wreck my threads (1) with their dumb needling. I will no longer tolerate even a single round of the bullying this scum indulges in, either on me or on anyone else.

I will continue to ride right up on your wheel whenever I see fit to during public discussions,
like the one you are having now!



2. Not to have Patrick Turner invade and wreck my threads with irrelevant crap about his non-existent transformers merely to prove that he is in charge on RAT (2). He is not, as I have already demonstrated. There is no way back to civilized discourse with me for any of the turneroid scum. They should stay clear, or they will hurt some more.

If you don't like the interuptions to "your threads" which are public property,
then conduct your debates in private emails.
But of course noboby wants to listen, you have no friends here.


3. Not to be abused behind my back by cowards like the Tacky Turner Trolls when I go away, or by the same cowards from behind their killfiles when Im here. See above at 1 about zero tolerance for netbullies and netscum.

You are killfiled because everyone hates you.



Doesnt seem so much, does it? Is it worth the ruinous flame war Turner is propagating merely for the sick satisfaction of denying me these simple elementary rights? Does it make anyone, anyone at all besides John and Ian, question Turners judgment and goodwill?

Well you started all this BS by propagating filth and and you expect us to catow
to your "peace conditions".

I won't.

Just **** off.



Now that Im warmed up, if there are any peacemakers left, they should step forward smartly before we really start to rock and roll. Contrary to the liquid manure Turner keeps sputtering, I care nothing about an apology. (3) What I want is a solid assurance that this crap stops dead. Thats easily achieved. In fact were partway there, in that some of smarter members of the Tacky Turner Trolls have already killfiled me (Harris) or run away (Nachbaur).

I won't leave this group, and I will persue you for the slander and foul
mouthed abuse of all and sundry.


When Turner and the last of his gang killfile me and promise never to mention my name again, you have your truce, John. Or at least until Turners diarrhea of the mouth bursts out again. I have already given him one chance, and this is another chance I am offering him. If there is a third round, I shall take care of Turner for good.

So what threat are you posing now Andre?

Your conditions of a peaceful settlement are just utter BS, and totally unacceptable,
so just **** off.

I delete the rest of the utter insanity that Andre Jute has just posted.

Patrick Turner.

I'm not sure what to make of your fragmented clause. Personally, I make it
a habit to question authority . . . especially those who believe that
their knowledge is far superior to the hoi polloi; who pontificate endlessly
and needlessly; and who claim to be the chief priests of esoterica.

I admit that I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree. But I think I have
sense enough to distinguish between a de facto technical forum vs. a
political, polemical dumping ground . . .

:-)



From: (firedome)
Organization: http://groups.google.com
Newsgroups: rec.audio.tubes
Date: 1 Dec 2003 17:42:02 -0800
Subject: RAT Wasteland

Jon Yaeger wrote in message
...
Surprise me LV . . . . write about something regarding tubes.



From: Lord Valve
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.audio.tubes
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:42:26 GMT
Subject: RAT Wasteland



Patrick Turner wrote:

Those who have left enjoy the quiet forums free of the loud mouths who
insult someone for the slightest issue, which is undeserved.

Oh...you must mean the smartass ****s who never miss an

opportunity to badmouth America.

Damn, wonder who *they* could be...


Lord Valve
American





Perhaps someone with enough brains to question authority..."Patriotism
is the last refuge of a scoundrel"....Mark Twain
Roger, from the Republic of Vermont 1791

Patrick Turner wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Those who have left enjoy the quiet forums free of the loud mouths who
insult someone for the slightest issue, which is undeserved.

Oh...you must mean the smartass ****s who never miss an

opportunity to badmouth America.

Damn, wonder who *they* could be...

Lord Valve
American

And with such a self righteous attitude like that,
is it any wonder so many people around the world hate America?

They can lump it - not much they can do about it, right?



Most of my best friends on the Net are american,

"Some of my best friends are black..."

and luckily, they don't have tunnel vision about their alleged
superiority, and they have heard what Christ said, "wicked are the self
righteous..."

Holy ******, put away that mirror, son...you'll hurt yourself!



Have a good day Mr Valve,

That's *Lord* Valve to you, junior.


Lord Valve
American (and you can like it)

Patrick Turner wrote:

By her admissions, the genteel lady may well have a lot to say about men,
and the workings of their mind, since so many have rested their weary heads
beside her in the flow of a sensual and erotic transaction,

She's a whore. (I'm sure *you* understand.)

something many wives are incapable of,

Divorced, eh? Figures.

but nevertheless, I remain
unsure as to her real understanding of men, or women,
when it comes to politics, human nature, behaviour in news groups.
Predictably, a couple of the folk here have lept upon her character,
calling here the worst of names, but the the insults have rolled off like
water from a duck's back, whilst she remains secure in the knowledge
that she can put a smile on far more faces than Jute

Turner, you sanctimonious little ****, since you like to

fire off Bible verses at folks, try this one on for size:

Proverbs 29:3 - Whoso loveth wisdom rejoiceth his father; But
he that keepeth company with harlots wasteth his substance.

Go wind something for your new friend, the, uh..."receptacle,"
there's a good lad. Perhaps she'll trade you a hummer for
something that, well...*doesn't*. If you have anything like that,
that is.

Lord Valve
Not Takin' **** from Turner

Lord Valve wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

By her admissions, the genteel lady may well have a lot to say about men,
and the workings of their mind, since so many have rested their weary heads
beside her in the flow of a sensual and erotic transaction,

She's a whore. (I'm sure *you* understand.)

something many wives are incapable of,

Divorced, eh? Figures.

but nevertheless, I remain
unsure as to her real understanding of men, or women,
when it comes to politics, human nature, behaviour in news groups.
Predictably, a couple of the folk here have lept upon her character,
calling here the worst of names, but the the insults have rolled off like
water from a duck's back, whilst she remains secure in the knowledge
that she can put a smile on far more faces than Jute

Turner, you sanctimonious little ****, since you like to

fire off Bible verses at folks, try this one on for size:

Proverbs 29:3 - Whoso loveth wisdom rejoiceth his father; But
he that keepeth company with harlots wasteth his substance.

But Mr Valve, you sanctimonius rednecked little ****,
God forgot to make it easy for folks to stay married, or even get married,
and from what I have seen there are many who should just hire someone
for the night rather than waste everyone's time breeding, and bringing
more strife unto the world.
Wasteing one's seed upon the rock has no relevance in today's overcrowded world.
Many wives charge their husbands thousands of $$$ for sexual favours
every year, so are they not whores, if they act to milk money from men,
without love and care? (I'm sure *you* understand.).
I can see you are a one eyed discompasionate dog lovin gun totin
arsehole, which is OK for me to say, because that's what you refer to yourself
as all the time, but really you are a wimp.

Let's hope Our Redeemer comes to earth again soon, to save Mr Valve.


Go wind something for your new friend, the, uh..."receptacle,"
there's a good lad. Perhaps she'll trade you a hummer for
something that, well...*doesn't*. If you have anything like that,
that is.

And I suppose you vet all your clients to see whether they are
morally superior before selling them any tubes?
They must love that about you.


Lord Valve
Not Takin' **** from Turner

And I ain't takin **** from you .

Patrick Turner.

and luckily, they don't have tunnel vision about their alleged
superiority, and they have heard what Christ said, "wicked are the self
righteous..."

Holy ******, put away that mirror, son...you'll hurt yourself!

But you got glazed eyes from gazin into the mirror all day son,

You sit there transfixed with your self righteousness,
and Lord you ain't, youse just a Mr Bloke, like
anyone else. Careful the mirror don't shatter now.


Have a good day Mr Valve,

That's *Lord* Valve to you, junior.

You are just a man, and your tone does not befit a Lord.
This is the Internet, and I don't recognise pretentious titles,
unless you got it from Queen Elizabeth II, or you have the all encompassing
understanding of a man of a true the world, worthy of being addressed as Lord.

I am really looking forward to some
nice long technical articles about tubes from you,
but I won't wait forever.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick Turner wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

By her admissions, the genteel lady may well have a lot to say about men,
and the workings of their mind, since so many have rested their weary heads
beside her in the flow of a sensual and erotic transaction,

She's a whore. (I'm sure *you* understand.)

something many wives are incapable of,

Divorced, eh? Figures.

but nevertheless, I remain
unsure as to her real understanding of men, or women,
when it comes to politics, human nature, behaviour in news groups.
Predictably, a couple of the folk here have lept upon her character,
calling here the worst of names, but the the insults have rolled off like
water from a duck's back, whilst she remains secure in the knowledge
that she can put a smile on far more faces than Jute

Turner, you sanctimonious little ****, since you like to

fire off Bible verses at folks, try this one on for size:

Proverbs 29:3 - Whoso loveth wisdom rejoiceth his father; But
he that keepeth company with harlots wasteth his substance.

But Mr Valve, you sanctimonius rednecked little ****,
God forgot to make it easy for folks to stay married, or even get married,

I'm sure He values your input...seein' as how you're an expert and all...

and from what I have seen there are many who should just hire someone
for the night rather than waste everyone's time breeding, and bringing
more strife unto the world.

I'm sure you speak from personal experience. You sound so...*certain*...

Wasteing one's seed upon the rock has no relevance in today's overcrowded world.
Many wives charge their husbands thousands of $$$ for sexual favours
every year, so are they not whores, if they act to milk money from men,
without love and care? (I'm sure *you* understand.).

For you, wife = whore. Couldn't keep her, eh? And it's not hard to see why.

I can see you are a one eyed discompasionate dog lovin gun totin
arsehole, which is OK for me to say, because that's what you refer to yourself
as all the time,

I have both my eyes, son...and both ears. Unlike some here.

As far as the guns and dogs go, well...those are "man" things,
junior. I don't expect you to understand. After all, by your logic,
you consider your own mother to be a whore. That makes you
a sonofabitch, right? A whore-mongering sonofabitch, at that.

but really you are a wimp.

Awww...I'm gonna stay up late worryin' about *that*, lemme tell ya...



Let's hope Our Redeemer comes to earth again soon, to save Mr Valve.

Hmmmm...I don't think "our" is a word you can use. After all,

you just delivered a lecture to God (above) about some stuff
He forgot to take care of, and you think there's no difference
between a wife and a whore. From what I've read, God may
well disagree.



Go wind something for your new friend, the, uh..."receptacle,"
there's a good lad. Perhaps she'll trade you a hummer for
something that, well...*doesn't*. If you have anything like that,
that is.

And I suppose you vet all your clients to see whether they are
morally superior before selling them any tubes?
They must love that about you.

I'm right popular in certain parts, it's true.

In fact, you're living in my second biggest sales
region. Fortunately for me, not everyone down
under is an uptight raving snotball...not mentioning
any names...




Lord Valve
Not Takin' **** from Turner

And I ain't takin **** from you .

I'm sure you have way more than you need as it is.

Lord Valve
American (married 32 years...tough ****, son...better luck next time.)

Patrick Turner wrote:

and luckily, they don't have tunnel vision about their alleged
superiority, and they have heard what Christ said, "wicked are the self
righteous..."

Holy ******, put away that mirror, son...you'll hurt yourself!

But you got glazed eyes from gazin into the mirror all day son,

You sit there transfixed with your self righteousness,
and Lord you ain't, youse just a Mr Bloke, like
anyone else. Careful the mirror don't shatter now.

Come up with something original, sparky. I do me much better than you do...

Jute's right...kickin' your ass is embarassingly easy.
Kinda like eyeballin' roadkill...you know it's icky, but
you gotta look as you pass...

Have a good day Mr Valve,

That's *Lord* Valve to you, junior.

You are just a man, and your tone does not befit a Lord.

Unlike Jute, I don't roll out the big guns for just any ordinary ******.

Nothin' like an inflamatory screen name to bring out the twits, eh?

This is the Internet, and I don't recognise pretentious titles,
unless you got it from Queen Elizabeth II, or you have the all encompassing
understanding of a man of a true the world, worthy of being addressed as Lord.

Can someone translate that? Andre?

I am really looking forward to some
nice long technical articles about tubes from you,
but I won't wait forever.

There are nearly 15,000 of mine on Google.

Knock yourself out, sunshine. Hell, some of 'em
ain't even flames.

His High Holy Thermionic Majesty, Lord Valve
Charter Member, VRC
Wing Commander, Black Helicopter Squadron 7734
Grand Dragoon, Mystic Knights of the Thermionic Klan
Uberrohrenfuhrer, Glass Panzer Division
And So Forth

God forgot to make it easy for folks to stay married, or even get married,

I'm sure He values your input...seein' as how you're an expert and all...

......about equally to your expert input.



and from what I have seen there are many who should just hire someone
for the night rather than waste everyone's time breeding, and bringing
more strife unto the world.

I'm sure you speak from personal experience. You sound so...*certain*...

So sure eh. you sound so *certain*



Wasteing one's seed upon the rock has no relevance in today's overcrowded world.
Many wives charge their husbands thousands of $$$ for sexual favours
every year, so are they not whores, if they act to milk money from men,
without love and care? (I'm sure *you* understand.).

For you, wife = whore. Couldn't keep her, eh? And it's not hard to see why.

No, not at all, and you got me wrong there. You assumed something,
and that's a real mistake when you enter into debate with me, OK?

I have had to avoid the women who just want money,
and don't care about their man.
Most women like that are hopeless in bed, the kichen, the
anywhere.
Some fellows are made in the same mould.
The rip off that marriage sometimes becomes gets worse as you ascend the social scale
and actors, acresses, Lords, and Ladies all are *more* prone to any number
of the seven vices, and the seven vitues are somewhat old fashioned.
I'm old fashioned, and ladies who charge directly, or indirectly for their services
don't attract me.
But I sympathise for the fellows born so ugly and un-made by life,
that their only recourse for love, is either a paid lady,
or Mrs Palmer, or some willing fellow, should they so be inclined.
Dito for the sexually repulsive females, who all yearn for love,
only to find society isn't programmed to have them, warts and all,
and the sensible alternative could be, but doesn't have to be
buying some time with another human being.
Surely a man who goes to a sex worker is better than if he approaches your wife.

I can see you are a one eyed discompasionate dog lovin gun totin
arsehole, which is OK for me to say, because that's what you refer to yourself
as all the time,

I have both my eyes, son...and both ears. Unlike some here.

As far as the guns and dogs go, well...those are "man" things,
junior. I don't expect you to understand. After all, by your logic,
you consider your own mother to be a whore. That makes you
a sonofabitch, right? A whore-mongering sonofabitch, at that.

No, not at all, YOU are the one to suggest my mother is a whore.
What's your mother?



Let's hope Our Redeemer comes to earth again soon, to save Mr Valve.

Hmmmm...I don't think "our" is a word you can use. After all,

you just delivered a lecture to God (above) about some stuff
He forgot to take care of, and you think there's no difference
between a wife and a whore. From what I've read, God may
well disagree.

Christ had compassion for Mary Magdelane, a whore.

I am sure that in God's eyes, you are just a sinner like so many others.




And I suppose you vet all your clients to see whether they are
morally superior before selling them any tubes?
They must love that about you.

I'm right popular in certain parts, it's true.

In fact, you're living in my second biggest sales
region. Fortunately for me, not everyone down
under is an uptight raving snotball...not mentioning
any names...

And thank the Lord we don't have too many of your type around here.

Lord Valve
American (married 32 years...tough ****, son...better luck next time.)

Being married is no ticket to greatness. Try again next time Mr Valve.

Next time you resent me saying that Allison and Jute need to be moderated
I will persue thee. I have enjoyed good discussions with you in the past,
and I did not include you in the line up of those whom I think
should just **** off, and leave us alone to talk tubes.

Moderation is moderation, and it makes for a peaceful news group.
Jute and Allison only know about extremism, and fanaticism,
which are the worst forces in the world, ( ultimately leading to Sep 11,
and all the following blasts, with a lot more to come.)
And America got its arse whipped with God on its side in Vietnam.
50,000 US lives lost for SFA. We lost 500 of our best helping you guys.
God didn't help, and sometimes America gets it plain wrong.

Patrick Turner.

Jute's right...kickin' your ass is embarassingly easy.
Kinda like eyeballin' roadkill...you know it's icky, but
you gotta look as you pass...

Yeah, I gotta tyre mark across an arm, but he's so paralysed
with anger and hate, he's all locked up and plain useless.
I haven't seen anyting sensibly technical for weeks.



You are just a man, and your tone does not befit a Lord.

Unlike Jute, I don't roll out the big guns for just any ordinary ******.

Oh, youse talkin about that box of we lettuce leaves he keeps....
What you got, a tomato? cabbage?



Nothin' like an inflamatory screen name to bring out the twits, eh?

This is the Internet, and I don't recognise pretentious titles,
unless you got it from Queen Elizabeth II, or you have the all encompassing
understanding of a man of a true the world, worthy of being addressed as Lord.

Can someone translate that? Andre?

You ain't been knighted by nobody, so youse really ain't a Lord anyone.
But its OK, faking it is quite OK with me.


I am really looking forward to some
nice long technical articles about tubes from you,
but I won't wait forever.

There are nearly 15,000 of mine on Google.

Knock yourself out, sunshine. Hell, some of 'em
ain't even flames.

I lost count too. and most ain't flamers.



His High Holy Thermionic Majesty, Lord Valve
Charter Member, VRC
Wing Commander, Black Helicopter Squadron 7734
Grand Dragoon, Mystic Knights of the Thermionic Klan
Uberrohrenfuhrer, Glass Panzer Division
And So Forth

Well, doubt inducing titles and credentials, I must say.
I don't really give a damn about what you call yourself.
I think between them, Neddy Seagoon, and Eckles had at least that many
accoutrements behind their names.

Patrick Turner.

"John Stewart" wrote

Hello Ian- I am surprised & somewhat dismayed at your sharp
response
to my post since my objective was to try for peace rather than
even more

war. However, your response does demonstrate well one of the
points
I was trying to make, that being diversity of opinion.

No need for dismay, I am just taking a contrary position.

Ian Iveson wrote:

"John Stewart" wrote

"Diversity of opinion is one of the most important factors the
human
race has. As an obvious example of what happens when opinion is
suppressed we need look no further than world affairs. In many
countries free thought has been subdued to the point that those
jurisdictions are seen as backward. You don't have to wonder
long
where those places are."

Wherever you come from, presumably. Suppression appears to be
your
objective.

When I referred to suppressed opinion I was referring to many of
the
countries in SW Asia. That would include places like Iraq, Iran
& Pakistan. They have failed to separate the state from religion.
That seems to cause many problems for the populace.

The oldest, most experienced civilisations on earth. You missed out
Syria. Oh, and half of Africa and half a dozen central american
countries (curiously, those *least* dominated by christianity).
Religion has always been in cahoots with the state, as christianity
is now in the USA and Europe. Not long ago, america was calling the
Soviet Union "ungodly" for achieving that separation.

Populations have problems. Neither foreign gangs nor truces are the
kinds of things that might help them. Those you mention were
currupted by colonial powers (Britain and USA mostly) and have been
under attack ever since. Generally the people are intelligent and
proud and don't want outside interference.

I don't believe in a god, and find it sad that so many through
history have been so confused and desperate that they have felt a
need for it even after its practical value to individual
consciousness was reduced to zero by advances in philosophy, science
and mass media. Here in Bradford, visiting the local mosques, it is
shocking, really shocking, to witness how much resentment of US
foreign policy is used to channel people into more and more
fundamental religious fervour. These people are first, second and
third-generation Pakistani immigrants. Believe me, they don't want
to be on your list.


USA?

I am a Canadian, although early in my career I considered a move
to the US. I had a job offer with the Digital Computer Lab at the
U of Illinois, but decided to stay in Canada.

In one of Phil's earlier posts he makes the point that Aussies &
Kiwis
hate
each other. I find that hard to believe, in particular with the
common
folk.
Seems to me they fought side by side in WW2.

Like the Soviet Union and the US and Britain...

People don't hate each other generally, I believe xenophobia is a
social phenomenon. Here, when afro-caribbeans are together they hate
asians, and vice versa. Put one asian with one afro-caribbean and
the hate doesn't exist. Socially, they are forced into competition
for scarce resources. Privately they are not. Private hatred usually
arises from private matters.

Phil also said
by way of a comparison that Canadians hate the Yanks. Again, that
is a
truly false assumption, although we may not always agree with
their
politics.
But you will find many Americans who are in disagreement with
their
present politics as well.

Well, that is a problem of so-called "liberal democracy", which
hinges on occasional elections for similar candidates, who lie for
votes.

Why do you want to impose your opinion of good behaviour on the
world? Can't you appreciate the preposterous irony of your
position?

First of all I am not trying to impose anything. Just a suggestion
that
we
could all accomplish more without the flak.

But what is the difference between "we can accomplish" and "we can
impose"? I am drawing attention here to the use of collective names
in this context. In a place where most are coming, going, or just
passing through, "we" can only apply to a minority who hang out
here. In so far as "we" are, we are a clique, and then a gang, and
then up to our neck in our own ****.


There has been more technical discussion recently than for a
long
time. Check the common fate a few months ago if someone outside
the
clique asked a "stupid" question. Point out one important thread
that you have found genuinely useful over the last couple of
years.

Ian, I recall well our pleasant exchange a while ago with
reference to
your "Perverse Circlotron". I was so impressed with your effort
that I
have kept it for reference in one of my binders. As well, I still
have
the responses Patrick T & Tim in the file. I just had another look
in order to refresh my memory. Your ideas in that instance were
well considered & presented. In general, whenever I looked at your
posts I have enjoyed them.

Bugger. Disarmed.

If you just want to chat with your mates, you should accept that
this is a public forum. You can't expect to have it to
yourselves.

You are capable, too, of rudeness.

You are absolutely correct. How does one respond after
being insulted a few times as I have recently been. But now I am
trying to extend an olive branch to Phil.

As long as you don't hit him with it. Anyway, he wants blood. In my
own way, I extended olive branches to Patrick Turner many, many
times before I wrote him off as a sad basket case who just can't
stop himself from crapping over everything.


Everything you refer to was predictable, and predicted several
times, over the last couple of years. Petty commercial interests
will always generate petty commercial competition. Cliques build
walls. Once everyone is looking inwards, no one spots the
approaching riders until the wind begins to howl.

Not sure where you are going in that paragraph!!!

Forgot the words....er...

all along the watchtower, the princes kept the view
while all the women came and went, barefoot servants too.

outside in the distance a wildcat did growl,
two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl.



Can you believe that there is someone here who believes he is
preaching a sermon from a pulpit in a church? Just take a break
for
a second, pinch yourself, think about it, this is
rec.audio.tubes:
it's a recreational group where people can talk about valves and
related issues. How is that possible with some daft *******
preaching all the time from a pulpit, who thinks it's a church?

I certainly had no intention of preaching to anyone. I brought up
the
sales training thing since it included information about all of us
that I did not invent. The two points to which I alluded are well
known
to the kind of folks that study that kind of thing. Not my theory,
but
I can assure everyone that these aspects of people are not BS.

I spoke of Turner, who recent revealed that he sees himself
preaching from a pulpit. Were he not so loathsome I would pity him.
He won't want a truce either.

Perhaps you might consider a course in elementary freedom?

When you are prepared to preside over that, let me be the first
to join. In the meantime I think we should invite MDHJWH to
tell us what really makes us tick. I would bet she has some
really great information that would benefit us all!!!

Throughout my teaching and lecturing history, I have had a near-100%
pass rate, in circumstances where others acheive a paltry 30%. Of
this I am very proud, but I don't know how I do it. Except that not
knowing seems to be a part of it. I ask the right questions but
don't know the answers. Classes teach me but I end up none the
wiser. They all pass their exams. I deal in opposites, like any good
marxist. Pulpit preachers are educational saboteurs who aim to destr
oy my work to cover up for their own inadequacies.

I have not the foggiest notion of how I might teach freedom, but not
knowing what it is myself is probably a good start. I certainly
would be stuck for a practical demonstration. I could do not-free,
but you probably already know that. Some French philosophers thought
they got somewhere but they have been prone to delusion. Try
Descartes, Rousseau and Sartre. For a more collective view, try
Hegel. For a pile of ****e, try Popper.

best wishes

Ian

Patrick Turner wrote:


God forgot to make it easy for folks to stay married, or even get married,

I'm sure He values your input...seein' as how you're an expert and all...

.....about equally to your expert input.



and from what I have seen there are many who should just hire someone
for the night rather than waste everyone's time breeding, and bringing
more strife unto the world.

I'm sure you speak from personal experience. You sound so...*certain*...

So sure eh. you sound so *certain*

Yep - bullseye.

Wasteing one's seed upon the rock has no relevance in today's overcrowded world.

Many wives charge their husbands thousands of $$$ for sexual favours
every year, so are they not whores, if they act to milk money from men,
without love and care? (I'm sure *you* understand.).

For you, wife = whore. Couldn't keep her, eh? And it's not hard to see why.

No, not at all, and you got me wrong there. You assumed something,
and that's a real mistake when you enter into debate with me, OK?

Up yours, mate. Ok?

I have had to avoid the women who just want money,
and don't care about their man.

Information-dense translation: "I can't get laid."

Most women like that are hopeless in bed, the kichen, the
anywhere.
Some fellows are made in the same mould.
The rip off that marriage sometimes becomes gets worse as you ascend the social scale
and actors, acresses, Lords, and Ladies all are *more* prone to any number
of the seven vices, and the seven vitues are somewhat old fashioned.
I'm old fashioned, and ladies who charge directly, or indirectly for their services
don't attract me.
But I sympathise for the fellows born so ugly and un-made by life,
that their only recourse for love, is either a paid lady,

Self-pity. Awwww....

or Mrs Palmer, or some willing fellow, should they so be inclined.
Dito for the sexually repulsive females, who all yearn for love,
only to find society isn't programmed to have them, warts and all,
and the sensible alternative could be, but doesn't have to be
buying some time with another human being.

ROFLMBFAO!

Surely a man who goes to a sex worker is better than if he approaches your wife.

If he approaches my wife, he's likely to end up with a brand-new

..357 Magnum asshole between his eyes. (That's *her* caliber,
not mine. I prefer the stodgy but extremely final .45 ACP.)

I can see you are a one eyed discompasionate dog lovin gun totin
arsehole, which is OK for me to say, because that's what you refer to yourself
as all the time,

I have both my eyes, son...and both ears. Unlike some here.

As far as the guns and dogs go, well...those are "man" things,
junior. I don't expect you to understand. After all, by your logic,
you consider your own mother to be a whore. That makes you
a sonofabitch, right? A whore-mongering sonofabitch, at that.

No, not at all, YOU are the one to suggest my mother is a whore.

Just following your lead, junior.

What's your mother?

Old.

Let's hope Our Redeemer comes to earth again soon, to save Mr Valve.

Hmmmm...I don't think "our" is a word you can use. After all,

you just delivered a lecture to God (above) about some stuff
He forgot to take care of, and you think there's no difference
between a wife and a whore. From what I've read, God may
well disagree.

Christ had compassion for Mary Magdelane, a whore.

I, on the other hand, am not Christ. Whores are disgusting.

Any man who would **** one (or even befriend one) is a loser.

I am sure that in God's eyes, you are just a sinner like so many others.

Speaking for God again, are we?

And I suppose you vet all your clients to see whether they are
morally superior before selling them any tubes?
They must love that about you.

I'm right popular in certain parts, it's true.

In fact, you're living in my second biggest sales
region. Fortunately for me, not everyone down
under is an uptight raving snotball...not mentioning
any names...

And thank the Lord we don't have too many of your type around here.

Thanking me? Uh...yer welcome, I reckon.

Lord Valve
American (married 32 years...tough ****, son...better luck next time.)

Being married is no ticket to greatness. Try again next time Mr Valve.

Next time you resent me saying that Allison and Jute need to be moderated
I will persue thee.

Persue? BwahahahahahahaHAAA! I "resent" it?

Jezuz ****in' kee-Reist on a Harley V-rod, son...
get *over* your stuck-up self. "Persue" to your
bent little heart's content.

I have enjoyed good discussions with you in the past,
and I did not include you in the line up of those whom I think
should just **** off, and leave us alone to talk tubes.

Hey...you give ****, you *get* ****. Plenty more where thiscame from, but you're *way*
too dim to back off now.

Moderation is moderation, and it makes for a peaceful news group.

This is an unmoderated forum.

You can do exactly *squat* about anything which is posted here.
*Squat*. You savvy? No likee? NO CLICKEE! ****in' rocket
science...jeez...

Jute and Allison only know about extremism, and fanaticism,
which are the worst forces in the world, ( ultimately leading to Sep 11,
and all the following blasts, with a lot more to come.)

That's right. Plenty more to come. A 10-megaton nuke on Mecca

would be a bloody good start.

And America got its arse whipped with God on its side in Vietnam.
50,000 US lives lost for SFA.

OK, math time: 50,000 dead GIs, 3,000,000 dead gooks.

That's a 60-to-1 kill ratio. We may have left before the
objective was accomplished, but we *damnsure* didn't
lose.

We lost 500 of our best helping you guys.

Scant payback for the US men and resources expended keeping

Oz out of the fire during WWII, I'd say. Currently, the fact that you're
not speaking Chinese (and hoping for a little extra rat meat in your
rice ration) also has something to do with the US world presence...
fortunately, your current PM is quite a bit less dense (and quite
a bit more objective, and cognizant of historical perspective)
than a wire-mangler like you.

God didn't help, and sometimes America gets it plain wrong.

God fights on the side with the best equipment and the most
ammo.

That's us, son. Choke on it.

Lord Valve
Moderator, Rec.Audiophool.****s

But now I am
trying to extend an olive branch to Phil.

As long as you don't hit him with it. Anyway, he wants blood. In my
own way, I extended olive branches to Patrick Turner many, many
times before I wrote him off as a sad basket case who just can't
stop himself from crapping over everything.

I really don't care what you do with the olive branch, or ehere you
write
me off to.
I don't always agree with you, and I WILL persue you over the
technical issues whenever they arrise, to bring reality to the debate.
The only way you can escape my comments is to conduct the debate
privately.
I don't mind the public gaze on what I say here, which is
public property once I have said it.
I don't crap on you, I just have to put you right about some of your
pedantic
streams of inaccuracies from time to time.
I know you don't like it, but I'd rather be right about something than
to feign some insipid aliance, or be popular.


I certainly had no intention of preaching to anyone. I brought up
the
sales training thing since it included information about all of us
that I did not invent. The two points to which I alluded are well
known
to the kind of folks that study that kind of thing. Not my theory,
but
I can assure everyone that these aspects of people are not BS.

I spoke of Turner, who recent revealed that he sees himself
preaching from a pulpit. Were he not so loathsome I would pity him.
He won't want a truce either.

But YOU are preaching back, right now.
Your'e labelling my contributions as preaching.
I am not seeking to be popular, and if you don't
like me responding to your BS, to neutralise its BS message to the
group,
wherever I see it as BS, then I don't care. Your problem.

Throughout my teaching and lecturing history, I have had a near-100%
pass rate, in circumstances where others acheive a paltry 30%. Of
this I am very proud, but I don't know how I do it. Except that not
knowing seems to be a part of it. I ask the right questions but
don't know the answers. Classes teach me but I end up none the
wiser. They all pass their exams. I deal in opposites, like any good
marxist. Pulpit preachers are educational saboteurs who aim to destr
oy my work to cover up for their own inadequacies.

Your problem is that you pose as the know all intellectual,
puffed up smugly with self importance,
and you sometimes just cannot handle down to earth debate,
with those who know something, beacuse their recent experinces over the
last few years is 20 dB more than any of your achievements,
so you label them as preachers,
sabateurs, and being personnally inadequate, which is all a load of
rubbish.



I have not the foggiest notion of how I might teach freedom,

Freedom is something fought for, not taught, imho.

but not
knowing what it is myself is probably a good start.

??????

I certainly
would be stuck for a practical demonstration. I could do not-free,
but you probably already know that. Some French philosophers thought
they got somewhere but they have been prone to delusion. Try
Descartes, Rousseau and Sartre. For a more collective view, try
Hegel. For a pile of ****e, try Popper.

In Europe the rivers ran red for freedoms,
then america had a frightful civil war where a mil lost their lives,
but here in Oz, we got our freedom without a shot being fired.
We debated and voted our way to freedom.

If you are confused about freedom, try some new books,
for the one's you have read have not enlightened you.

Patrick Turner.

Christ had compassion for Mary Magdelane, a whore.

I, on the other hand, am not Christ. Whores are disgusting.

So you are not Christian.

Christ thought whores were part of the flock, to be treated with compassion
for their suffering.


Any man who would **** one (or even befriend one) is a loser.

Or sell anything to one, should she want something, like a tube or two.
But they pay taxes, which are spent on the roads you drive on,
and they help keep America free, and smilin.....



I am sure that in God's eyes, you are just a sinner like so many others.

Speaking for God again, are we?

You are a sinner too.

Persue? BwahahahahahahaHAAA! I "resent" it?

I will point out to all where you are intolerant, illogical, etc.
I don't care if the world disagrees.



Jezuz ****in' kee-Reist on a Harley V-rod, son...
get *over* your stuck-up self. "Persue" to your
bent little heart's content.

Ah but you came after me with your little persuit.

This is an unmoderated forum.

You can do exactly *squat* about anything which is posted here.
*Squat*. You savvy? No likee? NO CLICKEE! ****in' rocket
science...jeez...

But I will have a response to folks who set out to tell a string of lies about me.
I will point out their lies, and BS, that they are lying,
and that they should **** off.

If YOU were Jute's target, maybe a different story.



Jute and Allison only know about extremism, and fanaticism,
which are the worst forces in the world, ( ultimately leading to Sep 11,
and all the following blasts, with a lot more to come.)

That's right. Plenty more to come. A 10-megaton nuke on Mecca

would be a bloody good start.

No wonder America cops a few planes into its trade centres.



And America got its arse whipped with God on its side in Vietnam.
50,000 US lives lost for SFA.

OK, math time: 50,000 dead GIs, 3,000,000 dead gooks.

That's a 60-to-1 kill ratio. We may have left before the
objective was accomplished, but we *damnsure* didn't
lose.

The US wasted 3,050,000 lives for what?

Vietnam went red anyway.

You are saying this was a wonderful outcome.

This was a tragedy.

Oz out of the fire during WWII, I'd say. Currently, the fact that you're
not speaking Chinese (and hoping for a little extra rat meat in your
rice ration) also has something to do with the US world presence...

What utter BS.

fortunately, your current PM is quite a bit less dense (and quite
a bit more objective, and cognizant of historical perspective)
than a wire-mangler like you.

He's going along with the US over Iraq, and I bet we get SFA out of it.
Now he's talkin a big Abrams tank deal, which means we are to pay a billion
for toys we don't need.
Who wins? the US. Its all a bit senseless.

Everyone here was against the japs in WWII, and the chinese were not the problem.


God didn't help, and sometimes America gets it plain wrong.

God fights on the side with the best equipment and the most
ammo.

That's us, son. Choke on it.

Lord Valve
Moderator, Rec.Audiophool.****s

Mr Valve, you suck.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick Turner wrote in message ...
I hope those who expected to read of thermionic devices can tune out
now before they get bored silly. This is WAY OFF TOPIC but a few
things need to be pointed out to you boys about the sex industry and
its relationship to marriage and other domestic arrangements.
1.A high % of sessions with a prostitute do not involve sex acts. Once
a client begins to trust a working girl (subsitute whore if it makes
you feel better) sessions more often resemble psychotherapy than
anything else. One of my girls had a weekly 2 hour booking with a
prominant Muslim cleric who, having discovered she was studying for
her PHD in comparative religion, enjoyed serious,in depth discussions
of contentious issues within Islamic theology that would have had him
shot if he dared voice them within his community. Other less unusaul
examples abound.
2. Many men who turn up at brothels in groups are gay and often beg
the girls not to tell me mates.
3.Wives are let off the hook when clients unleash their more weird
sexual requirements on a brothel.
Instance:- We spared the wife of a Supreme Court Judge the trail of
having to slap His Honor with raw tripe.
4. Young men, often of mediteranean origin, traditionaly are
'de-flowered' by working girls with the proceeding being paid for by
older members of their family as a right of passage.
5. Men away from their wives/girlfrinds often prefer sex with another
human to Ms Palmer & her 5 friends.
6. In cases such as no 5 many men think having paid sex is not an act
of unfaithfulness but believe that to have casual un-paid sex with a
stranger to be a betrail of their existing relationship.
7.I've lost count of the number of times I've been told by clients
that they are sick to death of the psychological games most woman play
in the often expensive and destructive cat & mouse 'trading the weekly
pay packet for sex' game .
I could go on & on but that's enough - I've left the industry
wealthier than most other female professions would have allowed. Not
all working girls do. Many are indeed psychologicaly damaged by their
experiences in the industry and mostly this is due to the kinds of
attitudes displayed here by those who get a thrill out of hurling
terms such as whore. Grow up boys!

"MDHJWH" wrote in message

( snip load of self serving "straw man" anecdotes about the whoring
business )


** It is still a jailable, criminal offence in Australia to:


1. Encourage with promises, persuade or pressure a girl to become a
prostitute or work as one.

2. Make one's living off the earnings of a prostitute or prostitutes.

3. Run a premises where an entry fee is charged in exchange for sexual
acts supplied therein.

4. Charge money for sexual services that another person then provides.



The truth about brothels is a MILLION miles away from all the cute fairy
stories. They are almost invariably run by criminal scum for criminal
purposes and with ZERO regard for the welfare of women involved.

Drug dealing to the drug addicted an all manner of other crime is par for
the course.


Now, just how did "Ayn Marx" wind up with all that exotic hi-fi
paraphernalia ????

Why is she so keen to hide her real identity ?????

Why is she so keen to have us all believe her fairystories ???

The answer is obvious.





............. Phil

MDHJWH wrote:
(snip)

Information-dense translation: "I'm a whore."

Yes dear, we know. Go suck something and leave the
decent folk alone, won't you?

Lord Valve
American

MDHJWH wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in message ...
I hope those who expected to read of thermionic devices can tune out
now before they get bored silly. This is WAY OFF TOPIC but a few
things need to be pointed out to you boys about the sex industry and
its relationship to marriage and other domestic arrangements.
1.A high % of sessions with a prostitute do not involve sex acts. Once
a client begins to trust a working girl (subsitute whore if it makes
you feel better) sessions more often resemble psychotherapy than
anything else. One of my girls had a weekly 2 hour booking with a
prominant Muslim cleric who, having discovered she was studying for
her PHD in comparative religion, enjoyed serious,in depth discussions
of contentious issues within Islamic theology that would have had him
shot if he dared voice them within his community. Other less unusaul
examples abound.
2. Many men who turn up at brothels in groups are gay and often beg
the girls not to tell me mates.
3.Wives are let off the hook when clients unleash their more weird
sexual requirements on a brothel.
Instance:- We spared the wife of a Supreme Court Judge the trail of
having to slap His Honor with raw tripe.
4. Young men, often of mediteranean origin, traditionaly are
'de-flowered' by working girls with the proceeding being paid for by
older members of their family as a right of passage.
5. Men away from their wives/girlfrinds often prefer sex with another
human to Ms Palmer & her 5 friends.
6. In cases such as no 5 many men think having paid sex is not an act
of unfaithfulness but believe that to have casual un-paid sex with a
stranger to be a betrail of their existing relationship.
7.I've lost count of the number of times I've been told by clients
that they are sick to death of the psychological games most woman play
in the often expensive and destructive cat & mouse 'trading the weekly
pay packet for sex' game .
I could go on & on but that's enough - I've left the industry
wealthier than most other female professions would have allowed. Not
all working girls do. Many are indeed psychologicaly damaged by their
experiences in the industry and mostly this is due to the kinds of
attitudes displayed here by those who get a thrill out of hurling
terms such as whore. Grow up boys!

Well put.

We have amoungst us some who brag about their wonderful long
32 yr marriages, and I congratulate them.

There are those here who see all of the above listed circumstances as fornication,
deserving damnation to hell for eternity as a result.

And one guy I know who is so proud of his 32 yr old marriage says
he'd like to see 10 megatons on mecca, and is behind America all the way.

He think the US won in Vietnam, because it took only
50,000 us lives to kill 3,000,000 "gooks".

Its not the sex industry that defines obscenity,
its the ppl hooked on violence, and rivers of blood,
or piles of smoking moslems.

I have never needed to engage a lady for her services for a sum of money,
because like most other men I know, to have anything to do
with working ladies just isn't isn't palatable, because the idea of
being intimate with someone who is otherwise intimate with
10 other men a week, let alone a night, is quite a repulsive turn off.

To be able to function sexually with a paid woman is seen
by many men with developed and sensible ideas as a failure of manhood.

Most men want their women to be faithful, honest, diligent,
caring, cheerful, inventive, addaptable, tolerant, kind, resouceful,
and perhaps even good at a blow job, although this skill is
not easily learned by many women, and lets not forget that
many men become slobs with bad habits, which no woman
could feel attraction for.

Any suggestion that the sex is something to be directly traded for money is a turn off for
many men, and men expect sex for free, and so do the women.
The vast majority of my generation just never needed to
buy favour, when it was offered for free, by women wanting to be loved,
and cared for, and vice versa.

At the moment, about 55% of marriages end in divorce, but it don't stop
a huge number of folks attempting to trade favours, and live
in a marriage they think is a sacred union.
The rate of re-marriage is large, even after failures.


The amount of effort put into relationships is far larger than the sex industry.
Both men and women should realise their partner may cheat on them some time
or other, and try to work it out, rather than trade gunshots.

Brothels have been with us since adam and eve, and were quite socially acceptable
in Pompei, and in many countries since.
In Africa, poligamy is common, and so each society has its morals,
and those who want to ram them down my neck will get a hard time,
meanwhile I tolerate those with other ways of living, and with alternative beliefs.

I have never known ANY woman capable of sitting around for an hour chatting about
tube circuits, instead of having sex, that's for sure.

There is only one lady I know who is really into tubes, and she has done very well
commercially with tube amps.


Patrick Turner.

"MDHJWH" wrote

...see below

For most of the prostitutes I know, their second worst memories and
fears are of the process by which they became prostitutes. Their
worst is whatever made them vulnerable to that process in the first
place.

I understand that a high proportion of UK prostitutes are from
families with a background of violence, many with single mothers. A
vicious circle can ensue that lasts for generations.

A typical cut-and-paste story. Father abuses daughter at 14 yrs.
Mother finds out. Mother leaves father. Father falls to drink or
suicide. Mother kicks **** out of daughter. Eventually daughter
finds someone who understands her position. Someone is a pimp, this
understanding is their active business and a tool of the trade.
Daughter tells of experience with father. Perhaps within an hour or
so the now utterly defenceless daughter is repeatedly raped and
drugged with heroin. Perhaps the induction is a little more subtle.
In any event, there is usually no way back for the daughter.

But I am at what you might call the bottom end of the industry. You
were saving girls from this kind of story weren't you?

You may also argue that the malaise within the sex industry is a
function of the society that hosts it, rather than the business
itself. That is a fair point, IMHO.

The key question for me is, considering that prostitutes never
respect their clients, how can a client, knowing this, get any kicks
out of the experience? Or is that part of it? Neither the men nor
the girls I ask know the answer, or they're not telling. Did you
ever find out?

What drew you to hi-fi? You may have noticed that you are pretty
unique in these circles simply because you are a woman. That's why I
ask.

cheers, Ian

I hope those who expected to read of thermionic devices can tune
out
now before they get bored silly. This is WAY OFF TOPIC but a few
things need to be pointed out to you boys about the sex industry
and
its relationship to marriage and other domestic arrangements.
1.A high % of sessions with a prostitute do not involve sex acts.
Once
a client begins to trust a working girl (subsitute whore if it
makes
you feel better) sessions more often resemble psychotherapy than
anything else. One of my girls had a weekly 2 hour booking with a
prominant Muslim cleric who, having discovered she was studying
for
her PHD in comparative religion, enjoyed serious,in depth
discussions
of contentious issues within Islamic theology that would have had
him
shot if he dared voice them within his community. Other less
unusaul
examples abound.
2. Many men who turn up at brothels in groups are gay and often
beg
the girls not to tell me mates.
3.Wives are let off the hook when clients unleash their more weird
sexual requirements on a brothel.
Instance:- We spared the wife of a Supreme Court Judge the trail
of
having to slap His Honor with raw tripe.
4. Young men, often of mediteranean origin, traditionaly are
'de-flowered' by working girls with the proceeding being paid for
by
older members of their family as a right of passage.
5. Men away from their wives/girlfrinds often prefer sex with
another
human to Ms Palmer & her 5 friends.
6. In cases such as no 5 many men think having paid sex is not an
act
of unfaithfulness but believe that to have casual un-paid sex with
a
stranger to be a betrail of their existing relationship.
7.I've lost count of the number of times I've been told by clients
that they are sick to death of the psychological games most woman
play
in the often expensive and destructive cat & mouse 'trading the
weekly
pay packet for sex' game .
I could go on & on but that's enough - I've left the industry
wealthier than most other female professions would have allowed.
Not
all working girls do. Many are indeed psychologicaly damaged by
their
experiences in the industry and mostly this is due to the kinds of
attitudes displayed here by those who get a thrill out of hurling
terms such as whore. Grow up boys!

"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
...

HUGE Snip

I have never known ANY woman capable of sitting around for an hour
chatting about tube circuits, instead of having sex, that's for sure.

Possibly not, but I'm sure there are many who'd prefer to sit for more than
an hour watching a TV tube instead of having sex. 8^)

"Ian Iveson" wrote in message
...

For most of the prostitutes I know, their second worst memories and fears
are of the process by which they became prostitutes. Their worst is whatever
made them vulnerable to that process in the first place.

I understand that a high proportion of UK prostitutes are from
families with a background of violence, many with single mothers. A
vicious circle can ensue that lasts for generations.

A typical cut-and-paste story. Father abuses daughter at 14 yrs. Mother
finds out. Mother leaves father. Father falls to drink or suicide. Mother
kicks **** out of daughter. Eventually daughter finds someone who
understands her position. Someone is a pimp, this understanding is their
active business and a tool of the trade.

Daughter tells of experience with father. Perhaps within an hour or so the
now utterly defenceless daughter is repeatedly raped and drugged with
heroin. Perhaps the induction is a little more subtle.

In any event, there is usually no way back for the daughter.

But I am at what you might call the bottom end of the industry. You were
saving girls from this kind of story weren't you?

You may also argue that the malaise within the sex industry is a function
of the society that hosts it, rather than the business itself. That is a
fair point, IMHO.

The key question for me is, considering that prostitutes never
respect their clients, how can a client, knowing this, get any kicks out
of the experience? Or is that part of it? Neither the men nor the girls I
ask know the answer, or they're not telling. Did you ever find out?

What drew you to hi-fi? You may have noticed that you are pretty unique in
these circles simply because you are a woman. That's why I ask.

Have you been watching "The Bill" again, Ian?

"Ian Iveson"


For most of the prostitutes I know, their second worst memories and
fears are of the process by which they became prostitutes. Their
worst is whatever made them vulnerable to that process in the first
place.


** Ouch ......


I understand that a high proportion of UK prostitutes are from
families with a background of violence, many with single mothers. A
vicious circle can ensue that lasts for generations.

A typical cut-and-paste story. Father abuses daughter at 14 yrs.
Mother finds out. Mother leaves father. Father falls to drink or
suicide. Mother kicks **** out of daughter. Eventually daughter
finds someone who understands her position. Someone is a pimp, this
understanding is their active business and a tool of the trade.
Daughter tells of experience with father. Perhaps within an hour or
so the now utterly defenceless daughter is repeatedly raped and
drugged with heroin. Perhaps the induction is a little more subtle.
In any event, there is usually no way back for the daughter.


But I am at what you might call the bottom end of the industry. You
were saving girls from this kind of story weren't you?


** You are an optimist Ian - exploiting exactly that sort of
horrendous scenario for profit is THE deal.



The key question for me is, considering that prostitutes never
respect their clients, how can a client, knowing this, get any kicks
out of the experience?


** "Johns", as they are known, are to a man so damn gullible that they
imagine the girls like them.

Johns are to a man HATED by the girls.



Or is that part of it? Neither the men nor
the girls I ask know the answer, or they're not telling. Did you
ever find out?


** Keeping the "Johns" in the dark and under the silly illusion they are
liked by the girls is **THE MYTH ** that enables the business of brothels
to exist.

Bit like " the customer is always right " myth works in retailing.



What drew you to hi-fi? You may have noticed that you are pretty
unique in these circles simply because you are a woman. That's why I
ask.


** An escape from a horrible daily reality maybe ???


Nero fiddled while Rome burned ......




............ Phil