I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a grand
piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate solutions?

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of these
are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT recorder
be the best choice for this?

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Karsten
Denmark

Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Active - a good cardioid condenser mic
Passive - a ribbon

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

Grip's and stagehand's rule of thumb - use wires unless you absolutely
have to use wireless. Unless it's a pure digital link, the S/N can go to
crap. Piano concerto's are nothing to mess with when it comes to dynamic
range. Again, if you must use wireless, use a pure digital link.

At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT
recorder be the best choice for this?

DAT with the copy protect off is good (the copy protect slices a 10Hz wide
chunk out at 3KHz. A CD-R could be used too.

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Mic placement is important. Minimalist is to put one on either side of the
piano so that they are at a 45 degree angle to it and aimed at the piano,
facing away from the audience. I personally like to use a third, fair
close and under the piano. Not only is this a good source of subtle
nuances, but because it is also phased (compared to the other two) L+R,
you can do digital matrixing against the L and R and widen the stereo
field without resorting to processing techniques that can add nasty
components to the signal.

Have a good concert!

--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

"All Ears" wrote in message
k...
I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a grand
piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate solutions?

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these
are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT recorder
be the best choice for this?

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Karsten
Denmark


I assume as you are posting to this site that you wish to use tubed
microphone and preamplifiers, is this correct?
Cable connection is simplier and more cost effective than using wireless
microphones especially regarding the static sound source, unless of course
you have a particular reason for utilising wireless microphones
A DAT recorder would be one choice as would a more versatile hard disk
recorder. Be aware a minidisk recorder applies some compression during the
recording process..
Do you intend to rent or buy the recording equipment? Good microphones,
pre's/mixers can be expensive.

Mike

Sorry Gregg , I should have answered the original post .....

"Ronald" schreef in bericht
...
I think if I was serious about that recording , I would go ANALOG !!
And use a Revox , Tascam , Tandberg , ...
Digtal ? Bah !! (and you know it ...)
But it might be cost effective ....

"Gregg" schreef in bericht
t...
Behold, Mike Gilmour signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:
Be
aware a minidisk recorder applies some compression during the
recording
process..

Yes, a mini-disc does a LOT of compression. Don't use them.

--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

"Gregg" wrote in message
t...
Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Active - a good cardioid condenser mic
Passive - a ribbon

Any particular brands that gives a good price performance ratio?


Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

Grip's and stagehand's rule of thumb - use wires unless you absolutely
have to use wireless. Unless it's a pure digital link, the S/N can go to
crap. Piano concerto's are nothing to mess with when it comes to dynamic
range. Again, if you must use wireless, use a pure digital link.

I may need up to 15 - 20 meter wire, however I guess this should not be a
problem?


At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT
recorder be the best choice for this?

DAT with the copy protect off is good (the copy protect slices a 10Hz wide
chunk out at 3KHz. A CD-R could be used too.

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Mic placement is important. Minimalist is to put one on either side of the
piano so that they are at a 45 degree angle to it and aimed at the piano,
facing away from the audience. I personally like to use a third, fair
close and under the piano. Not only is this a good source of subtle
nuances, but because it is also phased (compared to the other two) L+R,
you can do digital matrixing against the L and R and widen the stereo
field without resorting to processing techniques that can add nasty
components to the signal.

Have a good concert!

Thank you

Karsten

--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...

"All Ears" wrote in message
k...
I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand
piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these
are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT
recorder
be the best choice for this?

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Karsten
Denmark


I assume as you are posting to this site that you wish to use tubed
microphone and preamplifiers, is this correct?

I like tubes a lot, however I admit using CD players, also without tubed
output, that sounds pretty analogue.

I am both going to feed Joule Electra tubed equipment, and solid state
equipment to compare the performance. Not that I really doubt what will
sound the best to me :-)

Lets just say that I am open to suggestions with regards to the microphone
amplifiers, if there are good arguments for keeping tubed amplification all
through the signal path, I don't mind that.

Cable connection is simplier and more cost effective than using wireless
microphones especially regarding the static sound source, unless of course
you have a particular reason for utilising wireless microphones

No not really, just more "convenient" with the wireless solution. I think I
will take the wired path.

A DAT recorder would be one choice as would a more versatile hard disk
recorder. Be aware a minidisk recorder applies some compression during
the
recording process..

Don't worry, no minidisks here. I'll go for high quality digital or
analogue.

Do you intend to rent or buy the recording equipment? Good microphones,
pre's/mixers can be expensive.

I am planning to buy, but first a little research, so I wont end up with the
wrong stuff. I may also consider buying some used gear, if I can find the
right.

Karsten


Mike

Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:


"Gregg" wrote in message
t...
Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Active - a good cardioid condenser mic Passive - a ribbon

Any particular brands that gives a good price performance ratio?

Go to your music rental store, test a bunch in their listening room and
choose the one *you* like. Best advice I can give.

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

Grip's and stagehand's rule of thumb - use wires unless you absolutely
have to use wireless. Unless it's a pure digital link, the S/N can go
to crap. Piano concerto's are nothing to mess with when it comes to
dynamic range. Again, if you must use wireless, use a pure digital
link.

I may need up to 15 - 20 meter wire, however I guess this should not be
a problem?

As long as you are using balanced cable with XLR on each end, you'll be
fine ;-)

--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

Behold, Ronald signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

Sorry Gregg , I should have answered the original post .....

:-p

I would suggest analog too. However, the concerto's I have listened to
can have a 90dB+ dynamic range, not including the audience cheering.

--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

Mike Gilmour wrote:
[...]

Hi again Karsten,

I feel a bit disrespectful discussing solid state recording equipment on a
tube news group. May I suggest you post on rec.audio.pro if non-tubed
equipment is being researched as there are a lot of amateur & pro-recordists
there also. That said there's superb tubed equipment from many
manufacturers like Manley, Millennia Media to name a couple and many less
expensive models as well. Mentioning SS here I'm sure I can hear a hissing
noise Ssssss ;-)

Mike

"Discussing" is one thing, and I don't think anyone has a problem with
such discussions. "Browbeating" is another, especially if accompanied by
ego-ridden posturing and arrogant puffery. Thankfully we haven't had any
of that lately!

But just to add another suggestion to the mix - also ask your
mic-related questions on alt.audio.microphones. It's not a very active
group, but the last time I had a mic question (related to tubed mic
preamps) I got excellent replies from a couple fellows who appear to
monitor the group.

If you *are* considering a tubed preamp, there are lots of designs on
the web. I'll just add one more,
http://dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubestuf/shroom.htm . This was a prototype
for a proposed commercial product, and the prototype is as far as it
went before all parties got distracted by life, the universe and
everything. (This explains the hypier-than-usual writing style.) The
schematic is he http://dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubestuf/graphics/shroom.gif

Interestingly, the prototype is in use, in the possession of a pro
vocalist who is one of the main parties involved; I can't seem to be
able to pry it out of his hands, so it must work ok. ;-)

Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects, Vacuum Tubes & other stuff: |
| http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

Just compare a good turntable with a good RIAA-correction amp with
any digital source (even SACD and DVD-A) .
Conclusion : Digital will never sound like analog again . (I'm dead serious
!!)
Another point to go for analog is that if it's good you can do anything with
it . Look what happens if they make a SACD from an early digital recording .
It still sounds like 16-bit and won't never get better .
The better SACD's and DVD-A's are taken from original analog master tapes !!
For example go listen to an "old" "DDD"-CD . If that sounds good they lied
about the "DDD" !! This happend many times (!!) since most artist didn't
like
"DDD" but the record companies (and custommers) did , so they lied ....

Ronald .


"All Ears" schreef in bericht
k...

"Ronald" wrote in message
...
I think if I was serious about that recording , I would go ANALOG !!
And use a Revox , Tascam , Tandberg , ...
Digtal ? Bah !! (and you know it ...)
But it might be cost effective ....

I must admit that my scepticism towards the digital recordings are
presently
shrinking, after listening to the new generation D/A converters, they do
actually sound pretty analogue to my ears. I am however not, at this
point,
ruling out any possibilities.

Could be interesting to hear opinions on digital versus analogue
recordings?

Karsten


"Gregg" schreef in bericht
t...
Behold, Mike Gilmour signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:
Be
aware a minidisk recorder applies some compression during the
recording
process..

Yes, a mini-disc does a LOT of compression. Don't use them.

--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

"Gregg" wrote in message
t...
Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Active - a good cardioid condenser mic
Passive - a ribbon

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

Grip's and stagehand's rule of thumb - use wires unless you absolutely
have to use wireless. Unless it's a pure digital link, the S/N can go to
crap. Piano concerto's are nothing to mess with when it comes to dynamic
range. Again, if you must use wireless, use a pure digital link.

At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT
recorder be the best choice for this?

DAT with the copy protect off is good (the copy protect slices a 10Hz wide
chunk out at 3KHz. A CD-R could be used too.

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Mic placement is important. Minimalist is to put one on either side of the
piano so that they are at a 45 degree angle to it and aimed at the piano,
facing away from the audience. I personally like to use a third, fair
close and under the piano. Not only is this a good source of subtle
nuances, but because it is also phased (compared to the other two) L+R,
you can do digital matrixing against the L and R and widen the stereo
field without resorting to processing techniques that can add nasty
components to the signal.

Have a good concert!


Greg! I didn't know you did recording. Great advice, which should have
been prefixed with "Miking any piano well is virtually impossible". The
nastiest part *is* placement, and it takes 2 people - one on the console,
and one moving the mikes. Almost alchemy to me - one mike's not enough, and
with 2, you're running into all kinds of phasing problems, 3, and you're
"creating" the tone... The guys who do it day-in /day-out are used to
their gear, and get "in the ballpark" really fast, but for someone who's
never done this before... Many books on recording techniques, all worth a
read...
-dim
--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

snip

But just to add another suggestion to the mix - also ask your
mic-related questions on alt.audio.microphones. It's not a very active
group, but the last time I had a mic question (related to tubed mic
preamps) I got excellent replies from a couple fellows who appear to
monitor the group.

Sounds like a good idea, I'll see if I can get some more info there....

If you *are* considering a tubed preamp, there are lots of designs on
the web. I'll just add one more,
http://dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubestuf/shroom.htm . This was a prototype
for a proposed commercial product, and the prototype is as far as it
went before all parties got distracted by life, the universe and
everything. (This explains the hypier-than-usual writing style.) The
schematic is he http://dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubestuf/graphics/shroom.gif

Thanks a lot Fred, looks interesting. I really should practise my education
as electronics technician some, it is becomming a bit rusty. I'll try
squeezing this project in between fixing the house, restoring an old piano
and 4 veteran Mercedes.... :-)


Interestingly, the prototype is in use, in the possession of a pro
vocalist who is one of the main parties involved; I can't seem to be
able to pry it out of his hands, so it must work ok. ;-)

Sounds promising...

Hygge lyt,

Karsten


Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects, Vacuum Tubes & other stuff: |
| http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

snip

Greg! I didn't know you did recording. Great advice, which should have
been prefixed with "Miking any piano well is virtually impossible". The
nastiest part *is* placement, and it takes 2 people - one on the console,
and one moving the mikes. Almost alchemy to me - one mike's not enough,
and
with 2, you're running into all kinds of phasing problems, 3, and you're
"creating" the tone... The guys who do it day-in /day-out are used to
their gear, and get "in the ballpark" really fast, but for someone who's
never done this before... Many books on recording techniques, all worth a
read...

Hmm, more studying, it's getting more and more difficult practising being
lazy... By memory, I think having seen just one mike attached to the edge of
the open "lid" of the grand piano, or using a stand with the mike pointing
down towards the strings, well, better do a little research on this issue as
well.

Karsten

-dim
--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

"Gregg" wrote in message
. ..
Behold, Ronald signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

Sorry Gregg , I should have answered the original post .....

:-p

I would suggest analog too. However, the concerto's I have listened to
can have a 90dB+ dynamic range, not including the audience cheering.

What would be the expectations towards dynamic range of a "good" tape
recorder (not counting the theoretically affordable)?

Karsten


--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

Currently looking at this link
http://homerecording.about.com/gi/dy...nyc%2Fkey8.htm

Mentioned is: Vintage tube type of condenser microphones ( Neumann M-49,
U-67, U-47, AKG C-12, Telefuken 251 ) found in most studios.......

Could be interesting to find out what is so special with these, is it a
special condenser? Or is it because of the tubed microphone amplifier?

Karsten

"Shiva" wrote in message
...

"Gregg" wrote in message
t...
Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Active - a good cardioid condenser mic
Passive - a ribbon

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

Grip's and stagehand's rule of thumb - use wires unless you absolutely
have to use wireless. Unless it's a pure digital link, the S/N can go to
crap. Piano concerto's are nothing to mess with when it comes to dynamic
range. Again, if you must use wireless, use a pure digital link.

At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT
recorder be the best choice for this?

DAT with the copy protect off is good (the copy protect slices a 10Hz
wide
chunk out at 3KHz. A CD-R could be used too.

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Mic placement is important. Minimalist is to put one on either side of
the
piano so that they are at a 45 degree angle to it and aimed at the
piano,
facing away from the audience. I personally like to use a third, fair
close and under the piano. Not only is this a good source of subtle
nuances, but because it is also phased (compared to the other two) L+R,
you can do digital matrixing against the L and R and widen the stereo
field without resorting to processing techniques that can add nasty
components to the signal.

Have a good concert!


Greg! I didn't know you did recording. Great advice, which should have
been prefixed with "Miking any piano well is virtually impossible". The
nastiest part *is* placement, and it takes 2 people - one on the console,
and one moving the mikes. Almost alchemy to me - one mike's not enough,
and
with 2, you're running into all kinds of phasing problems, 3, and you're
"creating" the tone... The guys who do it day-in /day-out are used to
their gear, and get "in the ballpark" really fast, but for someone who's
never done this before... Many books on recording techniques, all worth a
read...
-dim
--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

Behold, Shiva signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

Greg! I didn't know you did recording. Great advice, which should have
been prefixed with "Miking any piano well is virtually impossible". The
nastiest part *is* placement, and it takes 2 people - one on the
console, and one moving the mikes. Almost alchemy to me - one mike's
not enough, and with 2, you're running into all kinds of phasing
problems, 3, and you're "creating" the tone... The guys who do it
day-in /day-out are used to their gear, and get "in the ballpark"
really fast, but for someone who's never done this before... Many books
on recording techniques, all worth a read... -dim

Yeah, I have done recording, but I try to avoid it ;-)

You're right - miking any "concert" passive instrument, especially the
piano is near impossible for uncolored tone. Only heard a truly successful
mic job done at BC Place stadium and that was with four $12,000 shotgun
microphones up in the nosebleeds, covering a 180 degree arc. The extreme
directionality of them necessitated the 150M+ distance from the stage.

--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

"All Ears" wrote in message
k...
I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a grand
piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate solutions?


Hi Karsten . . .

I have a little bit of experience with archival (concert) recording of small
classical groups (instrumental and vocal) and solo piano, mainly in the
early 1990s. I had the benefit of working in a concert hall; capturing a
natural, accurate sound of the instrument in the space was the goal. I
worked with a couple of others to pick out some best-bang-for-the-buck
microphone arrangements, and here's what I liked:

Two CAD Equitech II (now called the M200, I think) in an X/Y (coincident)
placement, 6'-15' from the performer/instrument with two omnis (First B&K
4006s, later Earthworks QTC1s) placed 2/3 - 3/4 of the way back in the hall,
maybe 20' or more apart. The mic pre used was a John Hardy M-1. Recorders
used were a Nagra-D four-track machine (it was borrowed, read WAY
expensive), a Tascam 1/2" 8-track analog, and finally, four tracks of Pro
Tools. I also have a friend who has worked extensively with the Earthworks
SR77 cardiods in a simple X/Y, and his recordings sound very nice.

Now this isn't exactly a cheap setup, but it can achieve true
professional-grade results. And as much as I love analog, I would very much
recommend recording to hard drive these days . . . for price/performance,
ease of editing, and ZERO tape costs, which is what really gets you with
analog. (Now for close-mic'd drums & guitars, that's another story. Analog
IMHO is the only way to go.)

Okay, there are no tubes in this setup . . . . so maybe I really shouldn't
post this, but what the hell. But really, the MOST IMPORTANT thing is
getting good mics, and the right ones for your application, and a decent mic
preamp (the John Hardy is WAY more than decent, it's exceptional).
Earthworks and CAD are both well established, value-oriented, and should be
able to help you with selection/application. After that, any decent
recorder will sound good . . . I have even gone directly to a Nakamichi
BX300 cassette deck with mic setup above and had absolutely stunning
results.

Hope this helps a little,

Kirk Patton

"Kirk Patton" wrote in message
.. .

"All Ears" wrote in message
k...
I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand
piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?


Hi Karsten . . .

I have a little bit of experience with archival (concert) recording of
small
classical groups (instrumental and vocal) and solo piano, mainly in the
early 1990s. I had the benefit of working in a concert hall; capturing a
natural, accurate sound of the instrument in the space was the goal. I
worked with a couple of others to pick out some best-bang-for-the-buck
microphone arrangements, and here's what I liked:

Two CAD Equitech II (now called the M200, I think) in an X/Y (coincident)
placement, 6'-15' from the performer/instrument with two omnis (First B&K
4006s, later Earthworks QTC1s) placed 2/3 - 3/4 of the way back in the
hall,
maybe 20' or more apart. The mic pre used was a John Hardy M-1.
Recorders
used were a Nagra-D four-track machine (it was borrowed, read WAY
expensive), a Tascam 1/2" 8-track analog, and finally, four tracks of Pro
Tools. I also have a friend who has worked extensively with the
Earthworks
SR77 cardiods in a simple X/Y, and his recordings sound very nice.

Now this isn't exactly a cheap setup, but it can achieve true
professional-grade results. And as much as I love analog, I would very
much
recommend recording to hard drive these days . . . for price/performance,
ease of editing, and ZERO tape costs, which is what really gets you with
analog. (Now for close-mic'd drums & guitars, that's another story.
Analog
IMHO is the only way to go.)

Hi Kirk,

My search for good microphones ended up with the Neumann M150.... Well, at
$5.300 each, I better control myself

I think starting with some reasonable microphones in combination with Freds
amplifiers, could be the way to go. Initially an HDD recorder would probably
be a good choice, a good tape recorder could be added at a later point. The
most important is to get some acceptable results to start with.


Okay, there are no tubes in this setup . . . . so maybe I really shouldn't
post this, but what the hell.

I just added some, so I guess that forgiveness is within reach...

But really, the MOST IMPORTANT thing is
getting good mics, and the right ones for your application, and a decent
mic
preamp (the John Hardy is WAY more than decent, it's exceptional).
Earthworks and CAD are both well established, value-oriented, and should
be
able to help you with selection/application. After that, any decent
recorder will sound good . . . I have even gone directly to a Nakamichi
BX300 cassette deck with mic setup above and had absolutely stunning
results.

Hope this helps a little,

Of course, thank you.

Karsten


Kirk Patton

My search for good microphones ended up with the Neumann M150.... Well, at
$5.300 each, I better control myself

Yes, their stuff is gorgeous. And they know it, and they charge
accordingly. Not to say that the performance leaves anything to be desired
.. . . but out of my price range.

Check out the tube mics at www.cadmics.com. I haven't priced these, but
the large diaphragm SS condensers that I have used from them are I believe
under $800 each . . . WAY lower . . .

Kirk Patton

On a decent tapedeck, using a dbx150 compander and first rate
tape, I set up levels for maximum around -6 dB tape input, thereby
avoiding tape- distortion (which upsets the expanding part of the
dbx) delivering very good quality audio with lots of headroom
and s/n at well below 100 dB which is enough. Using AKG C451
condensor mikes really brings your recording quality into a better
class (I used a pair on cymbals, etc.) so I'd say start saving for some
very good dynamic (Friend of mine uses Beyers on a concert grand
for productions) or one of the well known condensor mic's.
Not into recording these days, but that's what I found out, years ago.
Good luck,
Rudy
"Gregg" wrote in message
news:CUM7b.105481$kW.95662@edtnps84...
: Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:
:
:
: What would be the expectations towards dynamic range of a "good" tape
: recorder (not counting the theoretically affordable)?
:
: Decent analog, 120dB. 24 bit Digital ~180dB. Both with w/DBX NR.
:
: --
: Gregg
: *Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
: Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

"All Ears" wrote in message
k
"Gregg" wrote in message
t...
Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Active - a good cardioid condenser mic
Passive - a ribbon

Any particular brands that gives a good price performance ratio?

It's hard to beat the price performance of these two mics for recording
musical instruments:

Omni - Behringer ECM-8000
Cardiod - MXL 603

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"All Ears" wrote in message
k
"Gregg" wrote in message
t...
Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Active - a good cardioid condenser mic
Passive - a ribbon

Any particular brands that gives a good price performance ratio?

It's hard to beat the price performance of these two mics for recording
musical instruments:

Omni - Behringer ECM-8000
Cardiod - MXL 603

Taking the very modest price into consideration, they would at least be
worth to try. Thanks Arny.

Karsten

My search for good microphones ended up with the Neumann M150.... Well, at
$5.300 each, I better control myself

The Microtech Gefell UMT800 is an exquisite mic for about two grand a crack.
The Gefel plant was the original Neumann plant but got stuck behind the Iron
Curtain. The UMT800 uses the original M7 capsule used in many famous Neumann
mics such as the U47 and early M49's. It is still made by hand. Gefell also
makes the M296 which is worth looking into for classical music. It is about a
grand. Like the M150 (but a very different mic), it is omnidirectional only,
but uses a 1" nickle capsule similar to their measurement mics.

Gregg wrote:

Heh, now I'm more awake, I can add:

Miking - 10% physics, 90% metaphysics ;-)



I once thought metaphysics had something to do with the
properties of metals, like steel, copper, silver, gold, plutonium,
etc.... :-)

"Gregg" wrote in message
. ..
Behold, Ronald signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:

Sorry Gregg , I should have answered the original post .....

:-p

I would suggest analog too. However, the concerto's I have listened to
can have a 90dB+ dynamic range, not including the audience cheering.


.... And you *have* to show off the dynamic range /sub-terranian noise floor
of your gear by puttin' your amp on the dimes and hearin' *the echo* of an
old lady's fart in the back row...
-dim

--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

"Gregg" wrote in message
news:CUM7b.105481$kW.95662@edtnps84...
Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:


What would be the expectations towards dynamic range of a "good" tape
recorder (not counting the theoretically affordable)?

Decent analog, 120dB. 24 bit Digital ~180dB. Both with w/DBX NR.


DB *WHAT?* You should be *ashamed*, young man!
-dim
--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

Shiva wrote:
"Gregg" wrote in message
news:CUM7b.105481$kW.95662@edtnps84...

Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:


What would be the expectations towards dynamic range of a "good" tape
recorder (not counting the theoretically affordable)?

Decent analog, 120dB. 24 bit Digital ~180dB. Both with w/DBX NR.



DB *WHAT?* You should be *ashamed*, young man!
-dim

I'm wondering why you say that? I love dBx!

(But I do think the 120 dB DR is a bit optimisitic)

Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects, Vacuum Tubes & other stuff: |
| http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

"Ronald" wrote in message
...
Just compare a good turntable with a good RIAA-correction amp with
any digital source (even SACD and DVD-A) .
Conclusion : Digital will never sound like analog again . (I'm dead
serious
!!)
Another point to go for analog is that if it's good you can do anything
with
it . Look what happens if they make a SACD from an early digital recording
..
It still sounds like 16-bit and won't never get better .
The better SACD's and DVD-A's are taken from original analog master tapes
!!
For example go listen to an "old" "DDD"-CD . If that sounds good they lied
about the "DDD" !! This happend many times (!!) since most artist didn't
like
"DDD" but the record companies (and custommers) did , so they lied ....

Ronald .



....And ain't nothin' that can *touch* mah' flat-head ford. Just for
giggles, though, since so much of the 'classic" recordings were done on
ampeg decks, any idea what the freq.. response for, oh, fresh 440 decks
were? S/N? Dynamic range? How about he toob tub 350's? And why are all
the studios blowin' out their analog tape gear? I love that stuff, but I'm
no audiophile...
-dim

"All Ears" schreef in bericht
k...

"Ronald" wrote in message
...
I think if I was serious about that recording , I would go ANALOG !!
And use a Revox , Tascam , Tandberg , ...
Digtal ? Bah !! (and you know it ...)
But it might be cost effective ....

I must admit that my scepticism towards the digital recordings are
presently
shrinking, after listening to the new generation D/A converters, they do
actually sound pretty analogue to my ears. I am however not, at this
point,
ruling out any possibilities.

Could be interesting to hear opinions on digital versus analogue
recordings?

Karsten


"Gregg" schreef in bericht
t...
Behold, Mike Gilmour signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:
Be
aware a minidisk recorder applies some compression during the
recording
process..

Yes, a mini-disc does a LOT of compression. Don't use them.

--
Gregg
*Perhaps it's useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd*
Visit the GeeK Zone - http://geek.scorpiorising.ca

"Jim Kollens" wrote in message
...
My search for good microphones ended up with the Neumann M150....
Well, at
$5.300 each, I better control myself

The Microtech Gefell UMT800 is an exquisite mic for about two grand a
crack.
The Gefel plant was the original Neumann plant but got stuck behind the
Iron
Curtain. The UMT800 uses the original M7 capsule used in many famous
Neumann
mics such as the U47 and early M49's. It is still made by hand. Gefell
also
makes the M296 which is worth looking into for classical music. It is
about a
grand. Like the M150 (but a very different mic), it is omnidirectional
only,
but uses a 1" nickle capsule similar to their measurement mics.

These UMT800 does actually look like they could be a good choice for
something in the serious department. I was recommended the M 930 also, do
you know anything about these?

Any hints to good litterature about recording techniques would be welcome. I
have been listening to some horrifying recordings of piano and classical
music, and it is really not anything I want to repeat.

My goal is to make as "clean" recordings as possible, and I would like to
avoid dynamic compressors etc. in the signal path.

Karsten

"Fred Nachbaur" wrote in message
news:cNb8b.116179$kW.85930@edtnps84...


Shiva wrote:
"Gregg" wrote in message
news:CUM7b.105481$kW.95662@edtnps84...

Behold, All Ears signaled from keyed 4-1000A filament:


What would be the expectations towards dynamic range of a "good" tape
recorder (not counting the theoretically affordable)?

Decent analog, 120dB. 24 bit Digital ~180dB. Both with w/DBX NR.



DB *WHAT?* You should be *ashamed*, young man!
-dim

I'm wondering why you say that? I love dBx!

(But I do think the 120 dB DR is a bit optimisitic)


Hi Fred -
I wonder if we're talking about the same thing? I have an external 2ch dbx
(can't remember the full name) i've used with analog tape, and it sure makes
things *quiet*. But, trying not to use mysterious HiFi jargon on
playback, the volume level seems to lead & lag, most noticeable in
transition from really quiet to really loud passages & vice-versa. I
*think* that I had the setup correct, maybe I'm wrong... I heard the same
results when others recorded with dbx. I wound up giving up on the thing,
perhaps I'm just used to some background noise or something. The result
sounds somehow "enhanced", rather than "truer". Once again, it's possible I
simply never heard well-used dbx...
-dim
Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects, Vacuum Tubes & other stuff: |
| http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

"All Ears" wrote in message
k...
I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a grand
piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate solutions?

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these
are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT recorder
be the best choice for this?

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Karsten
Denmark




Karsten,

I've been very content with my recording setup of 2 x Neumann KM183 Omnis,
Millennia Media Mic pre HV-3B and a 24 bit Tascam DAT recorder DA45HR. On
other less purist recordings I incorporate a mixer and anything up to 10
mics but I still beleive less is definately more where mics are concerned.

Try to get in on a rehearsal, you may have the time then to try different
options. The trouble with recording piano is..every time you think you
could have done a little bit better but time does not always allow for many
test recordings.

Mike

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
news:Vhj8b.325984$Oz4.113523@rwcrnsc54...
I've read what others have written hear and I believe much of it is too
complicated for a "beginner" recordist. Also, I understand from you
request
below and what you wrote on RAHE that you are primarily concerned with
evaluating audio gear, not becoming a professional recordist.

One of the primary goals is to get a real referance point for evaluation of
audio equipment, however I would like to record some of the good stuff also.

It may be naive or optimistic to think that I will be able to capture or
record something comparable with the really good recordings already
available, however I have heard relatively simple recordings with a quite
stunning result.

I would not mind investing a good amount in the right equipment, and I think
the quality of the microphones are quite essential to get an acceptable
result. As far as I can see, these are often the weakest link in the chain,
and would probably be worth to get right from the start.


With that in mind, I think you should us a single omni mike and the lowest
cost excellent mic preamp you can find. If you are feeling flush,
Sennheiser makes a superb omni (the MKH-20) that is flat from 20-20khz.
And
Millennia Media makes superb two channel mike preamps in both tube and ss
topologies. However, these in combo would run about $3000.

I think Freds microphone amplifier design looks interesting, and probably
not too difficult to build, I have a feeling that it would be worth a try.


The most cost effective runner up system I can think of would be from a
brand called StudioProjects. They have a line of Chinese manufacture mics
that have received rave reviews and *NO* bad reviews, as have a lot of
other
low cost Chinese-made mics. They also have an apparently excellent little
single-channel mike preamp. So here would be my recommendations:

* Studio Projects C-4 Matched Pair omni&cardioid mics - omni flat 40-20khz
... under $600
* Studio Projects VTB-1 Mic Preamp... under $200
* 50' of shielded mic cable...HOSA is widely distributed for about $25
* A mono 1/4" to RCA cable for connecting the mic preamp to your
amps...available for RS for about $10.

Together they will run under $800 and if you decide you want to get into
recording afterward, another $250 for a second VTB-1 and some additional
stands, brackets, and cables will give you all you need for high quality
stereo recording (plus a machine, of course).

I'll see which information I can dig up on this gear, as most people, I
prefer to get the most for the least


Recording the piano with a mono omni from a position 2-4' from the front
of
a short-stick lid should give you a good clean signal with little room
ambiance but full frequency response over a wide dynamic range. It should
sound very much like the piano itself.

I would probably need to get some of the room ambiance along with the
signal, if I want to use it as referance point for the reproduction
equipment.

Of course, if you want to experiment with omni and cardioid stereo
placement, that is fine. Get a couple of good books on recording and mike
placement and study them, then experiment. It is a fascinating field.
But
for your test purposes, at least for now, I think simpler is better.

As a clever guy once said: "Everything should be made as simple as possible,
but not simpler" which makes a lot of sence to me.


Let us know the results of your evaluation, both here and in RAHE.
Thanks.

I sure will, but it will take some time before I get this far...

Karsten


Harry





"All Ears" wrote in message
k...
I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand
piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these
are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT
recorder
be the best choice for this?

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Karsten
Denmark

"All Ears" wrote in message
k...

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
news:Vhj8b.325984$Oz4.113523@rwcrnsc54...
I've read what others have written hear and I believe much of it is too
complicated for a "beginner" recordist. Also, I understand from you
request
below and what you wrote on RAHE that you are primarily concerned with
evaluating audio gear, not becoming a professional recordist.

One of the primary goals is to get a real referance point for evaluation
of
audio equipment, however I would like to record some of the good stuff
also.

It may be naive or optimistic to think that I will be able to capture or
record something comparable with the really good recordings already
available, however I have heard relatively simple recordings with a quite
stunning result.


It's harder to screw up when you have fewer variables to work with.

I would not mind investing a good amount in the right equipment, and I
think
the quality of the microphones are quite essential to get an acceptable
result. As far as I can see, these are often the weakest link in the
chain,
and would probably be worth to get right from the start.

The weakest link is usually the guy who does setup / gets behind the board.
Always. Even if it's just a club with 57's & 58's covered in vomit & a
scratchy board... The only way to learn to use the funky gear you're
planning on blowin' $$$$$ on is either in a studio or with a good sound
crew. But, hey, maybe you're a natural...
-dim


With that in mind, I think you should us a single omni mike and the
lowest
cost excellent mic preamp you can find. If you are feeling flush,
Sennheiser makes a superb omni (the MKH-20) that is flat from 20-20khz.
And
Millennia Media makes superb two channel mike preamps in both tube and
ss
topologies. However, these in combo would run about $3000.

I think Freds microphone amplifier design looks interesting, and probably
not too difficult to build, I have a feeling that it would be worth a try.


The most cost effective runner up system I can think of would be from a
brand called StudioProjects. They have a line of Chinese manufacture
mics
that have received rave reviews and *NO* bad reviews, as have a lot of
other
low cost Chinese-made mics. They also have an apparently excellent
little
single-channel mike preamp. So here would be my recommendations:

* Studio Projects C-4 Matched Pair omni&cardioid mics - omni flat
40-20khz
... under $600
* Studio Projects VTB-1 Mic Preamp... under $200
* 50' of shielded mic cable...HOSA is widely distributed for about $25
* A mono 1/4" to RCA cable for connecting the mic preamp to your
amps...available for RS for about $10.

Together they will run under $800 and if you decide you want to get into
recording afterward, another $250 for a second VTB-1 and some additional
stands, brackets, and cables will give you all you need for high quality
stereo recording (plus a machine, of course).

I'll see which information I can dig up on this gear, as most people, I
prefer to get the most for the least


Recording the piano with a mono omni from a position 2-4' from the front
of
a short-stick lid should give you a good clean signal with little room
ambiance but full frequency response over a wide dynamic range. It
should
sound very much like the piano itself.

I would probably need to get some of the room ambiance along with the
signal, if I want to use it as referance point for the reproduction
equipment.

Of course, if you want to experiment with omni and cardioid stereo
placement, that is fine. Get a couple of good books on recording and
mike
placement and study them, then experiment. It is a fascinating field.
But
for your test purposes, at least for now, I think simpler is better.

As a clever guy once said: "Everything should be made as simple as
possible,
but not simpler" which makes a lot of sence to me.


Let us know the results of your evaluation, both here and in RAHE.
Thanks.

I sure will, but it will take some time before I get this far...

Karsten


Harry





"All Ears" wrote in message
k...
I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand
piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these
are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT
recorder
be the best choice for this?

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Karsten
Denmark

Harry,

I have been digging into the Studio Projects products you recommended, looks
like a good way to start, thanks.

Funny enough, I met a musician that has a small recording studio, at a
private party today. A very nice guy, he invited me over to see his studio
and equipment.
He was also very interested in trying Fred's microphone amplifier, could be
interesting, since he has a lot of expensive stuff to compare with.

Maybe some higher force is pulling me towards going further with this....

Karsten

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
news:Vhj8b.325984$Oz4.113523@rwcrnsc54...
I've read what others have written hear and I believe much of it is too
complicated for a "beginner" recordist. Also, I understand from you
request
below and what you wrote on RAHE that you are primarily concerned with
evaluating audio gear, not becoming a professional recordist.

With that in mind, I think you should us a single omni mike and the lowest
cost excellent mic preamp you can find. If you are feeling flush,
Sennheiser makes a superb omni (the MKH-20) that is flat from 20-20khz.
And
Millennia Media makes superb two channel mike preamps in both tube and ss
topologies. However, these in combo would run about $3000.

The most cost effective runner up system I can think of would be from a
brand called StudioProjects. They have a line of Chinese manufacture mics
that have received rave reviews and *NO* bad reviews, as have a lot of
other
low cost Chinese-made mics. They also have an apparently excellent little
single-channel mike preamp. So here would be my recommendations:

* Studio Projects C-4 Matched Pair omni&cardioid mics - omni flat 40-20khz
... under $600
* Studio Projects VTB-1 Mic Preamp... under $200
* 50' of shielded mic cable...HOSA is widely distributed for about $25
* A mono 1/4" to RCA cable for connecting the mic preamp to your
amps...available for RS for about $10.

Together they will run under $800 and if you decide you want to get into
recording afterward, another $250 for a second VTB-1 and some additional
stands, brackets, and cables will give you all you need for high quality
stereo recording (plus a machine, of course).

Recording the piano with a mono omni from a position 2-4' from the front
of
a short-stick lid should give you a good clean signal with little room
ambiance but full frequency response over a wide dynamic range. It should
sound very much like the piano itself.

Of course, if you want to experiment with omni and cardioid stereo
placement, that is fine. Get a couple of good books on recording and mike
placement and study them, then experiment. It is a fascinating field.
But
for your test purposes, at least for now, I think simpler is better.

Let us know the results of your evaluation, both here and in RAHE.
Thanks.

Harry





"All Ears" wrote in message
k...
I'm going to test some audio systems feeding a live performance of a
grand
piano.

For this I need to purchase one or more good quality microphones and
microphone amplifiers, anybody who could recommend appropriate
solutions?

Wireless microphones would be handy, but I don't know if the price of
these
are much higher than similar quality wired ones?

At some point, I may also want to do some recordings, would a DAT
recorder
be the best choice for this?

Any hints to hardware and techniques would be most welcome.

Karsten
Denmark

"Fred Nachbaur" wrote in message
news:9OP7b.106505$kW.102630@edtnps84...


All Ears wrote:
snip


Greg! I didn't know you did recording. Great advice, which should have
been prefixed with "Miking any piano well is virtually impossible". The
nastiest part *is* placement, and it takes 2 people - one on the
console,
and one moving the mikes. Almost alchemy to me - one mike's not enough,

and

with 2, you're running into all kinds of phasing problems, 3, and you're
"creating" the tone... The guys who do it day-in /day-out are used to
their gear, and get "in the ballpark" really fast, but for someone who's
never done this before... Many books on recording techniques, all worth
a
read...


Hmm, more studying, it's getting more and more difficult practising
being
lazy... By memory, I think having seen just one mike attached to the
edge of
the open "lid" of the grand piano, or using a stand with the mike
pointing
down towards the strings, well, better do a little research on this
issue as
well.

On a whim, I once tried a really weird experiment: a PZM (Pressure-Zone
Microphone) tacked to the *inside* of the lid of an upright piano,
enhanced by an X-Y pair behind the player, pointing at the piano.

The PZM (panned to center) gave the guts, the X-Y pair (panned L-R) gave
the glory. Worked surprisingly well!

It seems like there is something to the three mic. setup that several has
been able note. The position of the third mic. should probably match the
type of music. I would think that a mic. inside the piano, would not be a
good idea for classical music, but probably good for jazz or rock where the
work of the hammers is part of the music.

Karsten


Cheers,
Fred
--
+--------------------------------------------+
| Music: http://www3.telus.net/dogstarmusic/ |
| Projects, Vacuum Tubes & other stuff: |
| http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk |
+--------------------------------------------+

These UMT800 does actually look like they could be a good choice for
something in the serious department. I was recommended the M 930 also, do
you know anything about these?

Any hints to good litterature about recording techniques would be welcome. I
have been listening to some horrifying recordings of piano and classical
music, and it is really not anything I want to repeat.

My goal is to make as "clean" recordings as possible, and I would like to
avoid dynamic compressors etc. in the signal path.

Karsten


hejsann

if you want to record pianos ,i highly reccomend mics with nickel
diaphragm.

i would call your local gefell dealer interstage.dk and ask if they
could let you demo

the m295 ,m296 or the spectacular mk202/mv220 measurement mic.these
mics have a unique clean sound.

as for pre-amp.nothing beats the earthworks lab mics or the millenia
media pre-amps for that clean detailed transparent sound.

i prefer tube pres-

y.m.m.v.


--m