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#1
Posted to alt.audio.equipment,rec.audio.tech
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Its all smoke and mirrors.
"KW" wrote in message
... After 20 years of use my beloved Infinity's finally died. After a few weeks shopping for replacements Ive come to the conclusion that speaker manufacturers today are nothing but crooks. I want audio speakers NOT home theater speakers and as such I want full range speakers. Not skinny towers with no dispersion or low end. No one makes full range speakers today because they want you to buy subwoofers. So whats the point of buying a tower when its frequency response is the same as a bookshelf? You sure don't get any better dispersion! My Infinity's had 10 (or 12) inch woofers with passive radiators (not ported). It had the cleanest bass of any speaker I've ever heard. Not overpowering and not boomy- just accurate. More punch and definition than 99% of all the subwoofers out there. (it went down to 28hz) and these speakers would fill my room with stereo imaging no matter where I stood. Sure, I could buy a $500 dollar subwoofer but all the ones Ive ever bought (for my home theater) have crapped out on me within 3 years. Their built in amplifiers are in no way comparable to the clean and dependable power from my Denon receiver. In addition most affordable subwoofers aren't true subwoofers in that they bleed into the midrange ruining the imaging. They are simply designed to add the bottom end that most speakers 15 years ago did on their own! So to get a comparable sound I need two of em! Subwoofers may be good for home theater but they suck at the accurate reproduction of music. I paid $700 for my Infinity's in 1986 and nothing today even comes close to them at twice that price. (28hz-20khz +/-3, high efficency 93db 1 watt/1 meter) Today only KLH and Cerwin-Vega make full range speakers and I don't really consider them in the same class. Bottom line: the old speakers were better: Better definition, better imaging, and better bass. To get something comparable today you have spend ALOT more money than you should. Its frustrating to know I'll never again be able to afford and enjoy audiophile quality because of slick marketing. Lets face it speaker technology hasn't changed that much in 20 years. Cabinets, drivers, and crossovers are still basically the same. The only thing thats different is the marketing. Am I the only ones who feel this way? Any solutions? KW I totally agree with you. What's more disheartening is the amount of people that go for the slick marketing.. Best way to go IMHO these days to get the best value for your money is to build your own speakers using a good pre-designed kit (don't think you will be able to design something decent from scratch unless you have serious time and resources!). Best resource used to be falcon-acoustics.co.uk. Not going any more though, but you'll find some good info there to get started... Ro |
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#2
Posted to alt.audio.equipment,rec.audio.tech
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Its all smoke and mirrors.
"KW" wrote in message ... After 20 years of use my beloved Infinity's finally died. After a few weeks shopping for replacements Ive come to the conclusion that speaker manufacturers today are nothing but crooks. I want audio speakers NOT home theater speakers and as such I want full range speakers. Not skinny towers with no dispersion or low end. No one makes full range speakers today because they want you to buy subwoofers. So whats the point of buying a tower when its frequency response is the same as a bookshelf? You sure don't get any better dispersion! My Infinity's had 10 (or 12) inch woofers with passive radiators (not ported). It had the cleanest bass of any speaker I've ever heard. Not overpowering and not boomy- just accurate. More punch and definition than 99% of all the subwoofers out there. (it went down to 28hz) and these speakers would fill my room with stereo imaging no matter where I stood. Sure, I could buy a $500 dollar subwoofer but all the ones Ive ever bought (for my home theater) have crapped out on me within 3 years. Their built in amplifiers are in no way comparable to the clean and dependable power from my Denon receiver. In addition most affordable subwoofers aren't true subwoofers in that they bleed into the midrange ruining the imaging. They are simply designed to add the bottom end that most speakers 15 years ago did on their own! So to get a comparable sound I need two of em! Subwoofers may be good for home theater but they suck at the accurate reproduction of music. I paid $700 for my Infinity's in 1986 and nothing today even comes close to them at twice that price. (28hz-20khz +/-3, high efficency 93db 1 watt/1 meter) Today only KLH and Cerwin-Vega make full range speakers and I don't really consider them in the same class. Bottom line: the old speakers were better: Better definition, better imaging, and better bass. To get something comparable today you have spend ALOT more money than you should. Its frustrating to know I'll never again be able to afford and enjoy audiophile quality because of slick marketing. Lets face it speaker technology hasn't changed that much in 20 years. Cabinets, drivers, and crossovers are still basically the same. The only thing thats different is the marketing. Am I the only ones who feel this way? Any solutions? KW Your feelings have merit. There is indeed something to be said for 2 enormous speakers, and, if having such in the middle of your listening space is not a problem, then why not. But it's an expensive way to go. Without question low frequency extension is the part of a speaker that costs big bucks. A subwoofer allows you to concentrate that expense in a single component that can be placed in the optimal position for best bass reproduction. The rest of the range--the part that makes for good stereo--can be placed in the best position for that task. The result is better reproduction at less expense. I think you've been listening to systems designed for absolute minimum cost and crosssectional area. I agree, they can be pretty bad. But there are plenty of really good subwoofers and corresponding satellites. Listen to a couple of those before you make your final decision. Norm Strong |
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#3
Posted to alt.audio.equipment,rec.audio.tech
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Its all smoke and mirrors.
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#4
Posted to alt.audio.equipment,rec.audio.tech
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Its all smoke and mirrors.
"KW" wrote in message ... I paid $700 for my Infinity's in 1986 and nothing today even comes close to them at twice that price. Of course, since inflation would dictate you must pay at least 4 times the price. No problem if your wage has kept up. Not so good for the rest. Today only KLH and Cerwin-Vega make full range speakers and I don't really consider them in the same class. So start looking at the hundreds of other brands you seemed to have missed, that also make full range speakers. Bottom line: the old speakers were better: Better definition, better imaging, and better bass. To get something comparable today you have spend ALOT more money than you should. If your wage hasn't gone up in the last 20 years then I indeed sympathise with your plight. Its frustrating to know I'll never again be able to afford and enjoy audiophile quality because of slick marketing. Lets face it speaker technology hasn't changed that much in 20 years. Cabinets, drivers, and crossovers are still basically the same. The only thing thats different is the marketing. Fairly true, except for computer analysis making cabinet design much better, easier and cheaper. Then there are higher temperature epoxies and voice coil formers etc. Laser interferometry has lead to better understanding of cone materials/behavior etc. But in general I agree, dollar for unadjusted for inflation dollar, the cheaper speakers today are no match for those 20+ years ago. But why stop there, anyone want to sell me a JBL Hartsfeild, Paragon or a Tannoy GRF for the original selling price :-) MrT. |
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#5
Posted to alt.audio.equipment,rec.audio.tech
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Its all smoke and mirrors.
"KW" wrote in message
... After 20 years of use my beloved Infinity's finally died. After a few weeks shopping for replacements Ive come to the conclusion that speaker manufacturers today are nothing but crooks. So, consider having the old drivers re'coned, etc. I want audio speakers NOT home theater speakers and as such I want full range speakers. Not skinny towers with no dispersion or low end. No one makes full range speakers today because they want you to buy subwoofers. What a load of rubbish, where are you looking for replacements , the local 2nd hand shop. Good quality speakers , are good quality, regardless of what your going to use them for. So whats the point of buying a tower when its frequency response is the same as a bookshelf? You sure don't get any better dispersion! You get what you pay for. Pay Peanuts and you get monkeys. My Infinity's had 10 (or 12) inch woofers with passive radiators (not ported). It had the cleanest bass of any speaker I've ever heard. Not overpowering and not boomy- just accurate. More punch and definition than 99% of all the subwoofers out there. (it went down to 28hz) and these speakers would fill my room with stereo imaging no matter where I stood. It might be time to find a specific Hi Fi shop, where the guy's not going to be selling fridges next week. Sure, I could buy a $500 dollar subwoofer but all the ones Ive ever bought (for my home theater) have crapped out on me within 3 years. Your going to get bugger all for a lousy $500, add another nought, [$5000] and then your cooking, There's some wonderfully sounding stuff out there.. But it really also does come back to the quality of your sound processer. Their built in amplifiers are in no way comparable to the clean and dependable power from my Denon receiver. In addition most affordable subwoofers aren't true subwoofers in that they bleed into the midrange ruining the imaging. They are simply designed to add the bottom end that most speakers 15 years ago did on their own! So to get a comparable sound I need two of em! Subwoofers may be good for home theater but they suck at the accurate reproduction of music. Consider the fact, that if you buy quality speakers, with quality crossover units, they will take care of the bass componant. I paid $700 for my Infinity's in 1986 and nothing today even comes close to them at twice that price. (28hz-20khz +/-3, high efficency 93db 1 watt/1 meter) Today only KLH and Cerwin-Vega make full range speakers and I don't really consider them in the same class. Now it comes down to price, I can't buy a decent pair of Tweeters for $700, never mind the rest of the hardware // cabinets, Start looking arround $3000, and work up from there. I have no idea where your located , so some brands might not be available to you. Consider B & W, Krix, VAF, Equinox, Tannoy, or if your considering high-end , there,s B & W Nautilus, Whatmouth, legacy. Then if you want really high-end start with Martin Logan, Paradigm, Wilson Audio, These companies also produce superb high quality Subs. Bottom line: the old speakers were better: Better definition, better imaging, and better bass. To get something comparable today you have spend ALOT more money than you should. Its frustrating to know I'll never again be able to afford and enjoy audiophile quality because of slick marketing. Lets face it speaker technology hasn't changed that much in 20 years. Cabinets, drivers, and crossovers are still basically the same. The only thing thats different is the marketing. As I said, you only get what you pay for, these days 80% of cabinets are produced in China, also some of the drivers are made there under licence, from European designers, It's simply a matter of labour costs. Speaker materials and construction, is total different to what it was 20 years ago, If you think not your deluding yourself, Consider the Nautilus 800 D series, where the magnets in the tweeters are mounted on Diamonds. Or the fact that many manifacturers are using Kevlar, and other exoitic materials As for marketing,, Good speakers sell themselves, Go into your Hi Fi outlet with a few C.D.'s and spend a couple of hours auditioning speakers. Sure your not going to be able to do that at Wal-mart, or Hardly Normal,, But your buying Hi Fi, not a bloody washing machine. Some manufacturers, like Wilson, insist that all there speakers, are personnal installed by themselves or there retail agents. and they like to review them after 6 months or so. But while there one of the best out there , there also not cheap. Am I the only ones who feel this way? Any solutions? KW Firstly, You have to consider, what you want to spend, Then ask yourself is your amplification, also up to the job, If your old speakers where 20 years old, how old is the Amp, etc. Then ask yourself , do you want ready made of kits, many manifacturers supply there products in kit form, You need to fit the hardware, crossovers etc, into the cabinets, and you will save dollars. Also different brands of speakers, react and sound different with different brands of CD players, amplification, Home Theater processers. bassett |
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