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Paul Beard home
 
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Default Miking a concertina...

Hi,

Has anyone had any experience miking a concertina? What mike should I use (up
to ukŁ250) and would it be better to use two mikes: one for each end or one
better quality mike used somewhat centrally.

Any ideas, suggestions etc would be appreciated.

Regards,

Paul
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P Stamler
 
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Default Miking a concertina...

If the concertina player doesn't move around too much, I will use a
pair of SM57 or MD421 or just about any other instrument mic, a bit
less tham 1m apart, both pointing toward the musician.


This setup has a problem with its stereo imaging. Picture this:

Inst.



/ \

A source toward the right will be louder in the left microphone, because it is
directional -- similar to an XY setup. However, it will arrive at the
right-hand microphone first. Thus the directional cues provided by intensity
and arrival-time will be in conflict, and you get muddle.

The great concertina virtuoso Alistair Anderson prefers a pair of KM-84s or
similar microphones, spaced about 10" apart, pointed straight ahead. You do get
a lot of movement in the stereo image if the player moves around, though.

I find an XY pair works well, but it's difficult to persuade the performer that
it will.

Peace,
Paul
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Mike Rivers
 
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Default Miking a concertina...


In article writes:

Has anyone had any experience miking a concertina? What mike should I use (up
to ukŁ250) and would it be better to use two mikes: one for each end or one
better quality mike used somewhat centrally.


I've always had good results with a single mic placed centrally,
slightly above the bellows and pointed downward, about a foot away.
But what actually works depends on a lot of things. If the concertina
player is also singing, you might want to get both the voice and
instrument with a single mic. If he's playing in a band with a lot of
loud instruments, you might need the brightness that you get from
pointing mics (one on each end) directly at the ends. If the player
waves the instrument around a lot, you might want to get a good
distance away with the mic.

Also, realize that at least one end, if not both, of the instrument
moves. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but some players have
definite ideas about how to place mics on their instrument. I've seen
players who plant one end of the instrument firmly on a knee, and want
one microphone on a stand to pick up that end, then clip a tie-tack
microphone to the strap on the other end so the mic goes with where
the concertina goes.

Also, there are different types of concertina, but basically one type
plays melody on one end and chords or bass notes on the other, and the
other type has melody notes coming out of both ends. There are big
ones and small ones, high ones and low ones. Place mics accordingly
if you're not getting a balanced pickup in the middle.

I've had perfectly good results with an SM-57. Unless you don't own
any mics now, I wouldn't worry about getting a special one for this
recording. I like to use U87's because they tend to fatten up what's
normally a fairly thin and reedy (no pun intended) sound. But don't
let that lead you to picking up a large capsule Chinese mic since you
can't afford a U87.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
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transducr
 
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Default Miking a concertina...

"Mike Turk" wrote in message ble.rogers.com...
"Eberhard Sengpiel" wrote in message
...
Paul Beard home wrote
Has anyone had any experience miking a concertina?
What mike should I use (up to ukŁ250) and would it
be better to use two mikes: one for each end or one
better quality mike used somewhat centrally.



Hi Paul,

each musical instrument and voice needs a special built
microphone - you think.
As you use your especial built pea soup spoon, when
you want to eat that soup. Right?

Cheers

ebs


Ha Ha! I like this answer!
Although the spoon manufacturers and spoon salesmen
want you to believe that you *need* that special pea soup spoon.

-mike


i don't. i really don't think the analogy holds up.

the spoon doesn't need to, and furthermore is incapable of, flattering
or altering the taste of the soup. if it is altering the taste of the
soup, something is seriously wrong.

the spoon, unlike the mic, delivers the actual source material,
unaltered (aside from, perhaps, some cooling), to the mouth of the
eater. it is not capturing some vital element (the taste?) of the soup
and changing it from one form of existence to another.

not to mention the subjective and artistic nature of the craft of
capturing a sound vs. the non-subjective utilitarian task of shoveling
food into one's mouth.

i can see the artistic elements of preparing food and even in
appreciating fine cooking...but choice of spoon certainly allows for
far less variation, experimentation or consequence to the results of
it's intended purpose than microphone selection or placement does to
it's respective purpose.

but hey, one mic's as good as another right? they all sound the
same...all those specs are marketing hype...the differences in sound
you hear when you use different models? ...placebo!

soup's on!
  #5   Report Post  
JMo2864946
 
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Default Miking a concertina...

Hi there. I grew up with my Mom being Lorraine Hayden, Chicago's 47th St Clubs
Concertina star.. About 14 concertinas, a fiddle electric bass and drumset
all told.
Most of the instruments had mics inside but they were horrible! For making the
albums, I liked a 57 at a distace of around six feet dead on center. This was a
while ago, tho, if they were till recording, I guess a 421 is a great bet. It
seems like the frequencies are like a harmonica, with a bit more bass.
Good Luck
Jer SUNdog Audio
Chicago


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Ken Lacouture
 
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Default Miking a concertina...

For what it's worth: I recently recorded a live theater performance that involved
one of the dancers playing a concertina. I didn't do the micing myself, I just
took a split from the FOH engineer. He did it with a pair of wireless lavs, one
taped to each end of the instrument. As you probably already know, sound comes
from both ends -- they said half the notes come from one end and half from the
other.

Philisophically, I would think there's no way around the idea that you need to
mic it so that it sounds like one instrument. I would think this would involve a
*slight* stereo image, but not a wide one. I summed mine pretty much to mono, and
had not problems, but I think that's because with the mic capsules taped so close
to the sound source there was no chance of phase cancellation.

Perhaps an XY or OTRF is a good place to start. If you choose to space wide, obey
the one-to-three rule.

  #7   Report Post  
Mike Turk
 
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Default Miking a concertina...

Hi Paul,

each musical instrument and voice needs a special built
microphone - you think.
As you use your especial built pea soup spoon, when
you want to eat that soup. Right?

Cheers

ebs


Ha Ha! I like this answer!
Although the spoon manufacturers and spoon salesmen
want you to believe that you *need* that special pea soup spoon.

-mike


i don't. i really don't think the analogy holds up.

the spoon doesn't need to, and furthermore is incapable of, flattering
or altering the taste of the soup. if it is altering the taste of the
soup, something is seriously wrong.

the spoon, unlike the mic, delivers the actual source material,
unaltered (aside from, perhaps, some cooling), to the mouth of the
eater. it is not capturing some vital element (the taste?) of the soup
and changing it from one form of existence to another.

not to mention the subjective and artistic nature of the craft of
capturing a sound vs. the non-subjective utilitarian task of shoveling
food into one's mouth.

i can see the artistic elements of preparing food and even in
appreciating fine cooking...but choice of spoon certainly allows for
far less variation, experimentation or consequence to the results of
it's intended purpose than microphone selection or placement does to
it's respective purpose.

but hey, one mic's as good as another right? they all sound the
same...all those specs are marketing hype...the differences in sound
you hear when you use different models? ...placebo!

soup's on!


Yeah I hate it when I hear a concertina recording that wasn't recorded
with a Binson C36ai; which everyone knows is the optimum mic for this
instrument.

-mike


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transducr
 
Posts: n/a
Default Miking a concertina...

"Mike Turk" wrote in message ble.rogers.com...
Hi Paul,

each musical instrument and voice needs a special built
microphone - you think.
As you use your especial built pea soup spoon, when
you want to eat that soup. Right?

Cheers

ebs


Ha Ha! I like this answer!
Although the spoon manufacturers and spoon salesmen
want you to believe that you *need* that special pea soup spoon.

-mike


i don't. i really don't think the analogy holds up.

the spoon doesn't need to, and furthermore is incapable of, flattering
or altering the taste of the soup. if it is altering the taste of the
soup, something is seriously wrong.

the spoon, unlike the mic, delivers the actual source material,
unaltered (aside from, perhaps, some cooling), to the mouth of the
eater. it is not capturing some vital element (the taste?) of the soup
and changing it from one form of existence to another.

not to mention the subjective and artistic nature of the craft of
capturing a sound vs. the non-subjective utilitarian task of shoveling
food into one's mouth.

i can see the artistic elements of preparing food and even in
appreciating fine cooking...but choice of spoon certainly allows for
far less variation, experimentation or consequence to the results of
it's intended purpose than microphone selection or placement does to
it's respective purpose.

but hey, one mic's as good as another right? they all sound the
same...all those specs are marketing hype...the differences in sound
you hear when you use different models? ...placebo!

soup's on!


Yeah I hate it when I hear a concertina recording that wasn't recorded
with a Binson C36ai; which everyone knows is the optimum mic for this
instrument.

-mike


so the people in this thread who've helpfully voiced opinions on
flattering/appropriate mic choices/placement are full of ****?

the guy posted an honest question asking for some guidance toward a
flattering mic to use on a particular instrument and this jackass
posts an analogy that basically said the question was as ridiculous as
asking what kind of spoon someone should use to eat a particular kind
of soup.

i looked in on the thread because i was interested to see the
responses, not to see someone being ridiculed for asking the question.
that's why i responded.

the only way that bull**** analogy would be valid is if the original
poster asked:
"what mic stand would make my concertina recording sound better?"

to quote Ronny (or was it Donny?) from the motion picture Rushmo
"...Get your head out of your ass!"
  #9   Report Post  
Mike Turk
 
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Default Miking a concertina...



Yeah I hate it when I hear a concertina recording that wasn't recorded
with a Binson C36ai; which everyone knows is the optimum mic for this
instrument.

-mike


so the people in this thread who've helpfully voiced opinions on
flattering/appropriate mic choices/placement are full of ****?

the guy posted an honest question asking for some guidance toward a
flattering mic to use on a particular instrument and this jackass
posts an analogy that basically said the question was as ridiculous as
asking what kind of spoon someone should use to eat a particular kind
of soup.

i looked in on the thread because i was interested to see the
responses, not to see someone being ridiculed for asking the question.
that's why i responded.

the only way that bull**** analogy would be valid is if the original
poster asked:
"what mic stand would make my concertina recording sound better?"

to quote Ronny (or was it Donny?) from the motion picture Rushmo
"...Get your head out of your ass!"


You ****in' anal idiot. The people who have voiced their opinions this
aren't "full of ****"; they're all valid, but so is the pea soup spoon
analogy. The point
is ... one doesn't have to be wrong for another to be right. It's not black
and white.
Lots of people have made great recordings, all using different gear and
different
techniques.

-mike


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ScotFraser
 
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Default Miking a concertina...

one doesn't have to be wrong for another to be right. It's not black
and white.

This is true, although the pea soup spoon analogy, while correct in the case of
soup, is not an approach I would spend a lot of time defending in the case of
audio recording.


Scott Fraser


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Ken Lacouture
 
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Default Miking a concertina...

Eberhard Sengpiel wrote:

Paul Beard home wrote
Has anyone had any experience miking a concertina?
What mike should I use (up to ukŁ250) and would it
be better to use two mikes: one for each end or one
better quality mike used somewhat centrally.


Hi Paul,

each musical instrument and voice needs a special built
microphone - you think.
As you use your especial built pea soup spoon, when
you want to eat that soup. Right?

Cheers

ebs


Look, Ebs, people don't ask "what microphone to use" because they think
there is ONLY ONE "CORRECT" mic for any given instrument. They ask
because they usually don't have time to start from scratch, in the dark,
trying every microphone in the book, and because they don't have the
money to buy a huge variety of microphones to try in the first place.

Would it have made you happier if Paul had asked, "What microphone do
you folk think I should try?" or, "What microphones have a good
reputation for concertina?" The rest of us could pretty well figure out
that's what he was getting at, without getting overly literal (and
snarky, to boot...)

BTW, while we're on the topic of spoons: I'd hate to try to eat pea soup
with a parfait spoon. There are these things called "soup spoons," and
they're different from dinner spoons and teaspoons for a perfectly good
reason. Try eating your next meal with a serving spoon -- yeah, you can
do it, but I bet you won't find it very pleasant. Once you're done with
that you can try recording a symphony orchestra with an SM57 and see how
well you like the results. (Hmmm.... now I'm getting snarky....)


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Tom
 
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Default Miking a concertina...


=


Paul Beard home wrote
Has anyone had any experience miking a concertina?
What mike should I use (up to uk=A3250) and would it
be better to use two mikes: one for each end or one
better quality mike used somewhat centrally.


Dear Paul,
yes it will be better with two mic's. They are very stereo. I have used
two mic's pointing towards either end, about two foot above and one or
two foot in front. Of course if you want anything like mono
compatibility then go for a crossed pair, or a mixture of both styles.
If you go for the spaced mic' style I would not pan them hard L + R in
the mix. You may well find that the sound from either end is too
discreet and that it begins to sound like a 60's stereo demonstration
record.

As for mic's, try 1050 Calrecs. They are back in production through
Bridge Audio in Sheffield. Last time I bought some, just before Keith
Ming died, they where =A3170 + VAT. I rate them as good as the KM84 and
much better than the KM184. Plus they are British (stands up to salute
then remembers he is not wearing any trousers).

All the best

Tom Leader


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