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#1
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Lip syncing and Miming on Leno...
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:51:43 -0600, "Lee K."
wrote: Was just watching the end of Jay Leno and some guy named Mario, who supposedly has the #1 song in the country, was obviously lip syncing about 3/4 of the song until it got to the "vocal acrobatics" jamming part toward the end. Also, it was VERY obvious the entire band and background singers I saw it, and thought that the "impression" was well done. Obviously nobody can croon and dance simultaneously. We're in a transition time where verbatim reproduction and simulation overlap; bound to be some discussion about permissability. One of our best cultural conservatives has recently said "The whole audio business is snake oil. You're making people think there is an orchestra behind those two black boxes, when there really isn't any such thing. There's some pride in that." IOW, my ideological agreement with you is fading lately. FWIW, and thanks, and ..... Chris Hornbeck "They'd meet at the Tout Va Bien, a cafe just off the highway." -JLG, _Bande a part_, 1964 |
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#2
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Chris Hornbeck wrote:
IOW, my ideological agreement with you is fading lately. It shouldn't be. The worst part of all this is they are replacing talented people with fakes for their look and dance moves. In the process, good, creative, and imaginative music is getting more and more scarce. |
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#3
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I think the expectation that the performance must match the CD is too great, and the artists and their management don't want to wedge their CD sales. That's going to backfire on them, real quick. And I remember the days when live shows did sound like the recording. Managers are too worried about how the looks than how they sound. -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
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#6
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"Lee K." wrote: Didn't the recording industry learn anything from Milli Vanilli...? Yes they did. You remember they went as far as winning a grammy prior to the downfall. It's obvious what the industry learned from that. -- Nathan "Imagine if there were no Hypothetical Situations" |
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#7
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1105100257k@trad... In article writes: I heard Alison Krauss' band on Morning Edition yesterday. One thing that struck me (and I suppose that it really shouldn't have) was that one of the members said that when they go on tour, they never change their set list from show to show - always the same songs, the same tempo, the same order, just as they rehearsed it. He conceded that to those in the audience who may have seen more than one show of the tour it would sound like the same thing, but to the band, because they're so familiar with the songs, they themselves get off on the subtle differences among each performance. What else is he going to say if he wants to keep his job. I'd rather be a refuse collection technician. Sam S. |
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#8
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howldog wrote:
these people arent interested in musicians, they are interested in PERFORMERS. Theres a difference. Some people are both. |
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#9
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In article , Frisco
wrote: I think there'll always be a audience for the "make it sound like the album" bands out there. There's a local cover band in my area that play current radio-play songs, they play them EXACTLY like the original artist NOTE FOR NOTE, and they're the most popular club act in the area. A whole pile of the Nashville acts have this same philosophy and it's a drag IMHO. Around here on most gigs, you get hired to copy what the session guys did. Some are a LITTLE flexible about it but the majority (especially the chick acts) are militant about it. They don't care about your own musical contributions, they want someone who can play well enough to be a verbatim copycat. You sit in the back with a black shirt on and try to be invisible so your presence doesn't detract from the glittering diva out front. I've done them and they're not my favorite. I got paid well but musically I was uninspired. I have a close buddy who auditioned for a big money, very well known Nashville female artist a few years ago. He learned the stuff and played for them. They dug him and called him back but said "We need you to get a little closer to the record parts." So he went back and spent some time getting them parts closer to the album. After his callback they said "Yeah, that's great but we really need you to do it JUST LIKE THE RECORD." He told them thanks but no thanks and walked. I understand his position. My gig is different in that Charlie doesn't use session guys on his records. I play on them and I'm free to do whatever I feel. Our shows are pretty similar thru the year in set arrangement, between song patter and song arrangements as well. But what I do WITHIN the songs is up to me. I change up fills and solo ideas nightly. It keeps it relatively fresh and helps keep us all focused on what we're playing. Those copycat gigs can easily slip into auto-pilot mode after on a few shows. Pat |
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#10
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I heard Alison Krauss' band on Morning Edition yesterday. One thing
that struck me (and I suppose that it really shouldn't have) was that one of the members said that when they go on tour, they never change their set list from show to show - always the same songs, the same tempo, the same order, just as they rehearsed it. This is true for many touring bands..they don't have time to change things around on the road and the show flow stays the same. John A. Chiara SOS Recording Studio Live Sound Inc. Albany, NY www.sosrecording.net 518-449-1637 |
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#11
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Sam Savoca wrote:
"Mike Rivers" wrote... writes: I heard Alison Krauss' band on Morning Edition yesterday. One thing that struck me (and I suppose that it really shouldn't have) was that one of the members said that when they go on tour, they never change their set list from show to show - always the same songs, the same tempo, the same order, just as they rehearsed it. He conceded that to those in the audience who may have seen more than one show of the tour it would sound like the same thing, but to the band, because they're so familiar with the songs, they themselves get off on the subtle differences among each performance. What else is he going to say if he wants to keep his job. You're not making excessive sense there. What are you talking about? I'd rather be a refuse collection technician. Nevermind that the man can play the music better than very well. You'd rather haul garbage than be in a band with Jerry Douglas? -- ha |
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#12
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I remember seeing the Beatles in '64. Yeah, Bernard Purdie did a great job, that night. :-) -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
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#13
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Watching American Bandstand as a kiddie in the late 50s, lip sync was the
order of the day. I didn't know any better.... 60s, and live performances on tv started to pop through here and there.... 70s and Midnight Special, and yes indeedy, playing it real, real nice.... What's going on now is kin to a pilgrim's progress stopover at Vanity Fair.... and not so Fair.... as well as not so fair for so many actual musicians.... But as we all know.... Life is not so fair... God knows, I miss the Yesterday Abundance of actual Honky Tonks, roots music of a variety of ilks, to play in. These days, Slim Pickens.... has anybody used his name for a band? |
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#14
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William, you are talking about two different kinds of shows. American
Bandstand was ALWAYS tracked and they made no secret or apologies about that. Whereas, Leno, Letterman, Conan, SNL and most other late night shows have always prided themselves on live performances. Lee "William C." wrote in message ... Watching American Bandstand as a kiddie in the late 50s, lip sync was the order of the day. I didn't know any better.... 60s, and live performances on tv started to pop through here and there.... 70s and Midnight Special, and yes indeedy, playing it real, real nice.... What's going on now is kin to a pilgrim's progress stopover at Vanity Fair.... and not so Fair.... as well as not so fair for so many actual musicians.... But as we all know.... Life is not so fair... God knows, I miss the Yesterday Abundance of actual Honky Tonks, roots music of a variety of ilks, to play in. These days, Slim Pickens.... has anybody used his name for a band? |
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#15
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In article znr1105100257k@trad, Mike Rivers
wrote: I don't have a problem with studio technology, but I think that bands should record as bands and not a public figure backed by studio musicians singing songs selected by producers from a cadre of commercial songwriters. That's the way it's always been. The producers routinely decide who what when where and how something will be put on an album. Especially if it's a "new" act. Bands that have control over what's released are the exception, not the rule. RP |
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#16
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"Lee K." wrote in message ... William, you are talking about two different kinds of shows. American Bandstand was ALWAYS tracked and they made no secret or apologies about that. Whereas, Leno, Letterman, Conan, SNL and most other late night shows have always prided themselves on live performances. Lee Yeah, it's to hell in a handbag. "William C." wrote in message ... Watching American Bandstand as a kiddie in the late 50s, lip sync was the order of the day. I didn't know any better.... 60s, and live performances on tv started to pop through here and there.... 70s and Midnight Special, and yes indeedy, playing it real, real nice.... What's going on now is kin to a pilgrim's progress stopover at Vanity Fair.... and not so Fair.... as well as not so fair for so many actual musicians.... But as we all know.... Life is not so fair... God knows, I miss the Yesterday Abundance of actual Honky Tonks, roots music of a variety of ilks, to play in. These days, Slim Pickens.... has anybody used his name for a band? |
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#17
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On 2005-01-07, Chris Hornbeck wrote:
Obviously nobody can croon and dance simultaneously. I've seen Meat Loaf do it! |
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#18
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"Sam Savoca" wrote in message ... "Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1105100257k@trad... In article writes: I heard Alison Krauss' band on Morning Edition yesterday. One thing that struck me (and I suppose that it really shouldn't have) was that one of the members said that when they go on tour, they never change their set list from show to show - always the same songs, the same tempo, the same order, just as they rehearsed it. He conceded that to those in the audience who may have seen more than one show of the tour it would sound like the same thing, but to the band, because they're so familiar with the songs, they themselves get off on the subtle differences among each performance. What else is he going to say if he wants to keep his job. I'd rather be a refuse collection technician. Sam S. Enjoy! I'd rather play with Alison. Lots of bands work that way, and his description is on the money, IMO. Don't knock it if you've never done it. Don |
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#20
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Gee whiz, some of you really need to get over yourselves if you want
to play music for a living. Here's the deal...the person whose is offering you the gig reigns supreme. If you have the leeway to play what you want to play, it's only because of their benevolence. If they're not so giving, then you shut up, play what they want to hear, collect your paycheck, and do your own side project if you have a big musical jones you need to let loose. Alison Krauss is not hurting for musicians who would love to play in her band. You can say what you want to about musical integrity and how non-creative it is, but no amount of whining is going to change the fact that the person signing your checks calls the shots and if they want it done a certain way, they will hire and fire as many musicians as it takes to get it done. I lead bands sometimes, and I do sideman work as well. When I lead the band, I don't want to hear someone whining about what I'm asking them to play. Just play the damn gig, get your money, and go home. Likewise, I give the bandleaders I work with the same respect. I saw one comment about "I'd rather empty garbage cans than do a gig like Alison Krauss." Well, my advice to you is get some heavy work gloves, some steel-toed boots, and work on your upper body strength, because the likelihood is that you WILL be toting garbage cans instead of playing music for a living. Unless of course you have your own project that's really good and gets picked up by a record company. And then instead of a bandleader who knows her **** telling you what to do, you'll have a bunch of stupid accountants and lawyers who don't know dick about music telling you what to do, as well as a producer who has his own agenda for what he wants your music to sound like. And if you don't do it, you'll get forgotten and they will either delay your projects until you do what they want or they'll just let your contract run out and prevent you from going elsewhere without paying a hefty price. Of course, you can go the Ani DiFranco route and start your own label and do exactly what you want when you want to do it. But how many Ani DiFrancos are there who have done that and been successful and made money? So for most of us, the best thing to do is just make the best of the situation we're in, and go home with some decent cash at the end of the night. Or go get another job and play music on the side, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. I'm just telling you how it is if you want to play music for a living. And that's exactly how it is. Just remember the Golden Rule: "The one with the gold rules." |
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#21
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Didn't the recording industry learn anything from Milli Vanilli
Lee Hello, Lee. I asked the same question awhile back, and was accused of having a chip on my shoulder. The difference, though, is that I did so in a thread where Joey was asking about the best method for doing live sequencing, and where it would have been more appropriate for me to suggest that he use a hardware sequencer, since this is the purpose for which such sequencers are designed. The accusation was this group's way of informing me that I should cut Joey some slack, and, realizing this, I have been keeping a low profile ever since. I have also learned that Joey has been pulling a full acoustical orchestra, which certainly speaks well for his musicianship, and I respect that. Having done my penance, though, I now would like to get back into the fistfight! :-) P. T. Barnum once said that "Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intellligence of the public", after which he then proceeded to do just that: namely, to go broke by underestimating the intelligence of the public! He did this by writing an autobiography in which this philosophy was spelled out in such detail that the public became outraged, and boycotted his enterprises, with the result being that he had no choice but to declare bankruptcy. Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it. |
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#22
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I have always ascribed to the same philosophy the Allman Brothers Band
allways had and that is "Do only in the studio what you can do live." I used to ascribe to that philosohy as well. why though? i say make the album version the best you can make it because thats the version people are going to hear a thousand times, most people will never hear the live version or might hear it once or twice, at best a handful of times if you're around for a while. i say if the song sounds better with a full orchestra then put one in, if it sounds better with two overlapping lead vocal tracks, go for it. who cares if you can't reproduce it live, maybe you can do one of the vocal melodies on guitar live. wanna overdub drum tracks? do it if its going to make the song better. if your songs sound a little different live, a little rawer there's nothing wrong with that, it makes it interesting. i like it when bands rework their arrangements, or change melodies, or jam things out, etc.. it keeps things fresh and it gives me a reason to buy the live album. if i want to hear the album version well, i'll just put on the album. |
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#23
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wrote:
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 03:28:45 -0500, "Blues_Jam" wrote: I have always ascribed to the same philosophy the Allman Brothers Band allways had and that is "Do only in the studio what you can do live." I used to ascribe to that philosohy as well. The thing is use as an example The Beatles Sgt. Pepper album. No way on Gods green earth four guys are gonna pull that off live. I think what we have is two different approches here. When in the studio play what is best for the song not whether or not you can pull it off live. When playing live make the nessesary adjustments to pull it off live. A few subtle changes here and there will make it possible to pull off the studio tune live. Of course you won't get all the nuances or instrmentation of the studio version but, a great musician will make do just fine. You're forgetting that the first sessions for Sgt. Pepper took place three months AFTER the Beatles played their FINAL concert. They were very well aware that they would never perform any of that material live as a band. But ignoring that small detail, I still don't think it's a very good analogy because there's no rule that says the "four guys" have to do it all by themselves. When was the last time the Rolling Stones played a show with just the five band members? And as long as you're getting "a little help from your friends", who would be in a better position financially to take an orchestra on the road with them? Sure, the backwards stuff & some of the more involved effects would have to be left out, but I have no doubt that the Beatles, plus a small orchestra & a handful of extra musicians & singers could perform most of that material with only minimal changes to the arrangements. I think the real limiting factor would be that the venues they had to perform in (because they were such a strong draw) were so big & loud that most of the subtleties would have been inaudible anyway. (Which was a big part of the reason they had decided to stop touring in the first place. And speaking of the Allman Bros, The other part of their philosophy is "If you play it the same way two nights in a row, you're out of the band". That'll put an end to lipsynching pretty quick. |
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#24
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that was awesome.
Gee whiz, some of you really need to get over yourselves if you want to play music for a living. Here's the deal...the person whose is offering you the gig reigns supreme. If you have the leeway to play what you want to play, it's only because of their benevolence. If they're not so giving, then you shut up, play what they want to hear, collect your paycheck, and do your own side project if you have a big musical jones you need to let loose. Alison Krauss is not hurting for musicians who would love to play in her band. You can say what you want to about musical integrity and how non-creative it is, but no amount of whining is going to change the fact that the person signing your checks calls the shots and if they want it done a certain way, they will hire and fire as many musicians as it takes to get it done. I lead bands sometimes, and I do sideman work as well. When I lead the band, I don't want to hear someone whining about what I'm asking them to play. Just play the damn gig, get your money, and go home. Likewise, I give the bandleaders I work with the same respect. I saw one comment about "I'd rather empty garbage cans than do a gig like Alison Krauss." Well, my advice to you is get some heavy work gloves, some steel-toed boots, and work on your upper body strength, because the likelihood is that you WILL be toting garbage cans instead of playing music for a living. Unless of course you have your own project that's really good and gets picked up by a record company. And then instead of a bandleader who knows her **** telling you what to do, you'll have a bunch of stupid accountants and lawyers who don't know dick about music telling you what to do, as well as a producer who has his own agenda for what he wants your music to sound like. And if you don't do it, you'll get forgotten and they will either delay your projects until you do what they want or they'll just let your contract run out and prevent you from going elsewhere without paying a hefty price. Of course, you can go the Ani DiFranco route and start your own label and do exactly what you want when you want to do it. But how many Ani DiFrancos are there who have done that and been successful and made money? So for most of us, the best thing to do is just make the best of the situation we're in, and go home with some decent cash at the end of the night. Or go get another job and play music on the side, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. I'm just telling you how it is if you want to play music for a living. And that's exactly how it is. Just remember the Golden Rule: "The one with the gold rules." |
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#25
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In message , -MIKE-
writes I remember seeing the Beatles in '64. Yeah, Bernard Purdie did a great job, that night. :-) -MIKE- You mean they weren't live!!!? :-) -- Ian. |
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#26
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hmmmm...sounds like Martina....
"Pat McDonald" wrote in message news:070120050950229783%patdrums@SPAMFREEmindsprin g.com... In article , Frisco wrote: I think there'll always be a audience for the "make it sound like the album" bands out there. There's a local cover band in my area that play current radio-play songs, they play them EXACTLY like the original artist NOTE FOR NOTE, and they're the most popular club act in the area. A whole pile of the Nashville acts have this same philosophy and it's a drag IMHO. Around here on most gigs, you get hired to copy what the session guys did. Some are a LITTLE flexible about it but the majority (especially the chick acts) are militant about it. They don't care about your own musical contributions, they want someone who can play well enough to be a verbatim copycat. You sit in the back with a black shirt on and try to be invisible so your presence doesn't detract from the glittering diva out front. I've done them and they're not my favorite. I got paid well but musically I was uninspired. I have a close buddy who auditioned for a big money, very well known Nashville female artist a few years ago. He learned the stuff and played for them. They dug him and called him back but said "We need you to get a little closer to the record parts." So he went back and spent some time getting them parts closer to the album. After his callback they said "Yeah, that's great but we really need you to do it JUST LIKE THE RECORD." He told them thanks but no thanks and walked. I understand his position. My gig is different in that Charlie doesn't use session guys on his records. I play on them and I'm free to do whatever I feel. Our shows are pretty similar thru the year in set arrangement, between song patter and song arrangements as well. But what I do WITHIN the songs is up to me. I change up fills and solo ideas nightly. It keeps it relatively fresh and helps keep us all focused on what we're playing. Those copycat gigs can easily slip into auto-pilot mode after on a few shows. Pat |
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#27
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jaldedert said: "I agree, however that recording any kind of 'lead'--be it vocal or instrumental--and passing it off as live is cheating...actually passing *anything* off as live is cheating. Deception sucks." I think my rule as a listener would be, "Don't try to trick me." Bob Seager tried to trick me in 87 or so. The "Turn the Page" sax intro started with the Sax player nowhere near the mic. He was hussling up to it when the solo started, barely getting the sax into his mouth in time. I was very disappointed. I am 94.764% sure that the whistling part of Billy Joel's "The Stranger" was also pre-recorded. Another disappointment. A different example: in Talking Head's "Stop Making Sence" movie, the singer guy (Gabielle Byrne?) comes out alone with a boombox, a stool, and an acoustic. He places the stool my a mic, puts the boombox on the stool, positions the mic by the boombox's speaker, and hits the play button. Now, there is no way the boombox made the glorious sound that we heard, but I think he made it pretty clear what was happening. He did sing and play acoustic for that selection. When Brittney is doing cartwheels for 20 minutes and doesn't sound winded, she isn't fooling anyone. But her demographic audience already knows she isn't singing. Don't confuse musicianship with showmanship! FZ and the MoI were doing a show similar to American Bandstand. They were told to lipsync and that they didn't need to play their instruments. Since they weren't making real music, they decided they didn't need real instruments, raided a janitor's closet, and 'played' brooms and mops. For me, I want to hear real live music with all the fretbuzz and finger squeaks that comes with it. Clapton hit clams all over "Unplugged" but I liked it anyway. |
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#28
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"Vin" wrote in message ... if your songs sound a little different live, a little rawer there's nothing wrong with that, it makes it interesting. i like it when bands rework their arrangements, or change melodies, or jam things out, etc.. it keeps things fresh and it gives me a reason to buy the live album. if i want to hear the album version well, i'll just put on the album. Well said. I find it interesting to see how the guitarist makes the comprimises necessary to play a live show. This is particularly interesting when there's only one guitarist, and he has to try to cover both rhythm and lead . There's few things more demanding than playing live as a three-piece. |
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#29
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"Frisco" wrote
I think there'll always be a audience for the "make it sound like the album" bands out there. There's a local cover band in my area that play current radio-play songs, they play them EXACTLY like the original artist NOTE FOR NOTE, and they're the most popular club act in the area. The same thing seems to go here. You either have to do it exactly like the original/most recent artist, or play it in a different style like Me First and the Gimme Gimmes or Hayseed Dixie. Lee D |
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#30
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"Boom" wrote
On 7 Jan 2005 09:32:54 -0500, (Mike Rivers) wrote: In article writes: I have always ascribed to the same philosophy the Allman Brothers Band allways had and that is "Do only in the studio what you can do live." (paraphrased). I don't have a problem with studio technology, but I think that bands should record as bands and not a public figure backed by studio musicians singing songs selected by producers from a cadre of commercial songwriters. Good luck getting that to stop. When you see an act like that, it's usually because someone bought their way into the business and is paying a lot of money to have their public figure backed by studio musicians singing songs selected by producers from a cadre of commercial songwriters. So as long as mommies and daddies have disposable millions to throw at their semi-talented offspring, it's going to be that way. Your posts on this thread are cracking me up. Reality can be that way sometimes. Lee D |
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#31
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"Sam Savoca" wrote in message ... "Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1105100257k@trad... In article writes: I heard Alison Krauss' band on Morning Edition yesterday. One thing that struck me (and I suppose that it really shouldn't have) was that one of the members said that when they go on tour, they never change their set list from show to show - always the same songs, the same tempo, the same order, just as they rehearsed it. He conceded that to those in the audience who may have seen more than one show of the tour it would sound like the same thing, but to the band, because they're so familiar with the songs, they themselves get off on the subtle differences among each performance. What else is he going to say if he wants to keep his job. I'd rather be a refuse collection technician. Sam S. ? Just to be clear, Alison Krauss and Union Station *aren't* in the current crop of lip-synch autotune adultcontempopopvegasdiva...hold on, I'm getting all worked up. She and her band play live at a very, very, very high level of accomplishment. The show might be well rehearsed, but it ain't dance routines and costume changes they are rehearsing...it's music. Dan |
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#32
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["Followup-To:" header set to rec.audio.pro.]
On 2005-01-07, Blues_Jam wrote: I have always ascribed to the same philosophy the Allman Brothers Band allways had and that is "Do only in the studio what you can do live." That they used that philosophy and still ended up with the piano parts in Jessica, is enlightening (and pretty discouraging too). |
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#33
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In defense of Billy Joel, he admitted in an interview (I've lost which one)
that he had to take "The Stranger" out of his set for a few years because the band (especially Liberty) kept making faces and doing funny things in an effort to make him laugh and screw up the whistling. He was not pre-recording that part of the show. As to the rest, I cannot say since I have never seen him live. The video taped live performances I have seen, suggest to me that he and the band are really playing. He just has amazing piano and vocal (and whistling) chops. Some folks do. Matt Porter "Tony Ennis" wrote in message news:1KEDd.79403$k25.52755@attbi_s53... jaldedert said: "I agree, however that recording any kind of 'lead'--be it vocal or instrumental--and passing it off as live is cheating...actually passing *anything* off as live is cheating. Deception sucks." I think my rule as a listener would be, "Don't try to trick me." Bob Seager tried to trick me in 87 or so. The "Turn the Page" sax intro started with the Sax player nowhere near the mic. He was hussling up to it when the solo started, barely getting the sax into his mouth in time. I was very disappointed. I am 94.764% sure that the whistling part of Billy Joel's "The Stranger" was also pre-recorded. Another disappointment. A different example: in Talking Head's "Stop Making Sence" movie, the singer guy (Gabielle Byrne?) comes out alone with a boombox, a stool, and an acoustic. He places the stool my a mic, puts the boombox on the stool, positions the mic by the boombox's speaker, and hits the play button. Now, there is no way the boombox made the glorious sound that we heard, but I think he made it pretty clear what was happening. He did sing and play acoustic for that selection. When Brittney is doing cartwheels for 20 minutes and doesn't sound winded, she isn't fooling anyone. But her demographic audience already knows she isn't singing. Don't confuse musicianship with showmanship! FZ and the MoI were doing a show similar to American Bandstand. They were told to lipsync and that they didn't need to play their instruments. Since they weren't making real music, they decided they didn't need real instruments, raided a janitor's closet, and 'played' brooms and mops. For me, I want to hear real live music with all the fretbuzz and finger squeaks that comes with it. Clapton hit clams all over "Unplugged" but I liked it anyway. |
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#34
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There isn't just one type of music. You have music that is "composed" and
music that is open to exploration (obviously that's a broad description)....My point is some songwriters/arrangers/producers work very hard to make every part work or express something in a song. It's their statement. I'm a songwriter and play all of the instruments on recording sessions. When I come up with a part I chisel away until I have the exact thing I want. This takes a lot of thought and there is usually a reason that I choose a note (either technical or emotional). When it comes time to perform this stuff I expect that the musicians are going to have respect for what their role is and what it is I've done. Because I understand this perspective it makes it easy for me to work with people. I can play what they want and be happy or I can play free. I don't expect to come in and "change" things to my way. It's also great to be able to play loose. That's a different style. Just as great, but in a different direction. Not everything is supposed to be open for interpretation. What about orchestral music? Do you just throw out the charts? It's fine that we all have enjoy a different bag of tea. I enjoy hearing Allison play spot on. I really appreciate the skill each of those musicians has. It's really amazing. At the same time I enjoy listening to Medeski, Martin and Wood improvise. Everything has it's place. the problem with some musicians is ego....It can always be better their way. Now, I'm not saying all.....But it makes no snese to complain about something that is not your style, just don't do it and leave it to someone else who wants to. Can we just concentrate on our strengths? --litepipe |
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#35
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litepipe wrote:
There isn't just one type of music. You have music that is "composed" and music that is open to exploration (obviously that's a broad description)....My point is some songwriters/arrangers/producers work very hard to make every part work or express something in a song. It's their statement. I'm a songwriter and play all of the instruments on recording sessions. When I come up with a part I chisel away until I have the exact thing I want. This takes a lot of thought and there is usually a reason that I choose a note (either technical or emotional). When it comes time to perform this stuff I expect that the musicians are going to have respect for what their role is and what it is I've done. Since I've never heard any of your music, I'll apologize in advance if you turn out to be the next Mozart. This discussion of "playing it like the record" evolved from someone's observation that fans of AshleeBritneyAvrilChristinaEtc. want to hear things "just like the record". In that context, your comment about "Composed music" seems to put the generators of such modern pop dreck on a similar footing as the Masters. So anyway, "When it comes time to perform this stuff", do you write out all the parts in standard notation for the musicians (who you expect to have respect for their role and what it is you've done)? Not to give you a hard time personally, but to say that any piece of pop music is perfect enough to preclude any improvization on the part of the performers is just silly. Because I understand this perspective it makes it easy for me to work with people. I can play what they want and be happy or I can play free. I don't expect to come in and "change" things to my way. It's also great to be able to play loose. That's a different style. Just as great, but in a different direction. Not everything is supposed to be open for interpretation. What about orchestral music? Do you just throw out the charts? What about orchectral music? FYI, classical orchestral music IS interpreted BY THE CONDUCTOR. Obviously, it would turn into a cluster**** pretty quickly if an entire orchestra tried to improvise like Miles Davis or Jerry Garcia. But music is a temporal art form, or else it's not art at all. Baroque music was always improvised during the baroque period. Do you think anybody ever left a Bach performance disappointed because the performers didn't play it like the record? It's fine that we all have enjoy a different bag of tea. I enjoy hearing Allison play spot on. I really appreciate the skill each of those musicians has. It's really amazing. At the same time I enjoy listening to Medeski, Martin and Wood improvise. Everything has it's place. the problem with some musicians is ego....It can always be better their way. Now, I'm not saying all.....But it makes no snese to complain about something that is not your style, just don't do it and leave it to someone else who wants to. Can we just concentrate on our strengths? And the problem with some songwriters & arrangers is ego as well. A quick list off the top of my head of the greatest (my opinion) composers of popular music in the last 50 years: Chuck Berry, Carl Perkins, Bob Dylan, Willie Nelson, Lennon/McCartney, Jagger/Richards. Roy Orbison, Warren Zevon. It's a quick list, so I'm sure I left out a lot of greats. But what all these guys have in common is that they never worried about playing it like the record. A great song can stand on its own merits. A great songwriter knows that. |
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#36
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"Don Evans" wrote in
: What else is he going to say if he wants to keep his job. I'd rather be a refuse collection technician. Sam S. Enjoy! I'd rather play with Alison. Lots of bands work that way, and his description is on the money, IMO. Don't knock it if you've never done it. Don Plus I'd get to hear that voice night after night. I'm not one for crystal clear female voices, preferring the dark timbres of a Chrissie Hynde or a Linda Thompson, but Alison Krause's voice is a thing of beauty. JMK |
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#37
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wrote in
m: "Vin" wrote in message ... if your songs sound a little different live, a little rawer there's nothing wrong with that, it makes it interesting. i like it when bands rework their arrangements, or change melodies, or jam things out, etc.. it keeps things fresh and it gives me a reason to buy the live album. if i want to hear the album version well, i'll just put on the album. Well said. I find it interesting to see how the guitarist makes the comprimises necessary to play a live show. This is particularly interesting when there's only one guitarist, and he has to try to cover both rhythm and lead . There's few things more demanding than playing live as a three-piece. I remember when a great band like the Replacements played live after "Pleased To Meet Me" came out. Their song "Can't Hardly Wait" had horns and strings, which they were not gonna tour with. So guitarist Slim Dunlap played these great fills that essentially took over the supporting role of the strings and horns while mimicking neither. It was really cool. JMK |
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#38
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JMK wrote:
"Don Evans" wrote in : What else is he going to say if he wants to keep his job. I'd rather be a refuse collection technician. Sam S. Enjoy! I'd rather play with Alison. Lots of bands work that way, and his description is on the money, IMO. Don't knock it if you've never done it. Don Plus I'd get to hear that voice night after night. I'm not one for crystal clear female voices, preferring the dark timbres of a Chrissie Hynde or a Linda Thompson, but Alison Krause's voice is a thing of beauty. JMK Amen brother, amen. -- Free bad advice available here. To reply, change the chemical designation to its common name. |
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#39
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On 7 Jan 2005 09:32:54 -0500, (Mike Rivers) wrote:
a public figure backed by studio musicians singing songs selected by producers from a cadre of commercial songwriters. Isn't this, really, what has been going on with most of the 'popular' music since at least the 30s? It was maybe the 60s when it became a 'badge of honor' for _some_ performers to actually perform what they themselves actually composed (while the other method continued for others.) But that badge is largely only recognized by other performers, 'purists', and those who have deified themselves for having the knowledge of 'how things should really be'.... not by the majority of the listening public. IMO, both approaches can produce pleasant results.... and both approaches can produce dismal results. ==================== Tracy Wintermute Rushcreek Ranch ==================== |
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#40
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Tracy Wintermute wrote:
a public figure backed by studio musicians singing songs selected by producers from a cadre of commercial songwriters. Isn't this, really, what has been going on with most of the 'popular' music since at least the 30s? Yes and no. The difference is that the figure had to sing. And had to sound good doing so. Same thing on broadway. Most of those singers would be lost on their own. But they CAN sing. Or they find a different line of work. |
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