[Hikaru Ichijyo]

I'll just put the question out the

Who makes good bass traps and diffusers that really work?

There will be some replies that contain real knowledge. And in the
Internet tradition practiced since antiquity by the ancients, it will
eventually devolve into a flame war about oxygen-free cable with gold
contacts, and there will be human sacrifices.

But seriously, who makes products that can really do something about a
boomy room with a lot of slapback echo coming off the walls?

--
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
--Thomas Paine

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 9/3/2016 9:28 AM, Hikaru Ichijyo wrote:
Who makes good bass traps and diffusers that really work?

There will be some replies that contain real knowledge. And in the
Internet tradition practiced since antiquity by the ancients, it will
eventually devolve into a flame war about oxygen-free cable with gold
contacts, and there will be human sacrifices.

But seriously, who makes products that can really do something about a
boomy room with a lot of slapback echo coming off the walls?

Almost any bass traps and diffusers that you can buy commercially, or
choose to make yourself, will do its intended job. But what you have to
understand (and here's where the gold contacts come in) is that they
don't "just work." You have to have to do a good analysis of your room
and figure out what the problems are and where you need to apply treatment.

Realtraps, Auralex, Primacoustic, GIK - all their stuff is OK if you do
your homework, choose the right products, and put them in the right places.



--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[John Williamson]

On 03/09/2016 15:28, Mike Rivers wrote:

Realtraps, Auralex, Primacoustic, GIK - all their stuff is OK if you do
your homework, choose the right products, and put them in the right places.


Who was it that used to pop up in here mentioning his bass traps
whenever room treatment was mentioned?

Seemed to know what he was on about.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Scott Dorsey]

Hikaru Ichijyo wrote:
I'll just put the question out the

Who makes good bass traps and diffusers that really work?

Just about everyone. They aren't complicated, they aren't difficult, the
physics are easy. You can buy from Ethan at realtraps. You can buy from
Alpha Acoustics. You can buy from Auralex. You can buy from a million
other suppliers.

They are all functionally about the same. Some are better constructed than
others, and some look better than others. Some are built thinly so that the
low frequency corner is pretty high, and those may need to be doubled up.
Some are built very thickly so they have good absorption at very low
frequencies. But that's just physics.

Now... if you're talking about foam absorbing panels or you're talking about
narrowband Helmholtz resonators, there are some real differences between
brands. But bass traps are easy.

But seriously, who makes products that can really do something about a
boomy room with a lot of slapback echo coming off the walls?

You can. First deal with the boominess, then once you have the low end
under control and you can walk around the room and the bass coverage is
uniform, then worry about the slapback echo. In many rooms you may find
you need enough bass trapping that it will wind up controlling the slap
as a side effect. In others you will find you need absorption or diffusion
depending on what the total bass absorption is; you want the absorption to
remain more or less uniform with frequency.

On the other hand, there are rooms for which there is no hope. If you have
a cubical room with cement walls, the easiest thing to do is to build a new
room inside it with more appropriate dimensions. In the process you can get
some isolation from the structure too.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
On 03/09/2016 15:28, Mike Rivers wrote:

Realtraps, Auralex, Primacoustic, GIK - all their stuff is OK if you do
your homework, choose the right products, and put them in the right places.

Who was it that used to pop up in here mentioning his bass traps
whenever room treatment was mentioned?

That was Ethan from Realtraps. He's a good fellow. He not only sells some
excellent traps, his site may still have directions on building your own if you
are too cheap to buy from him.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[John Williamson]

On 03/09/2016 16:03, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
John Williamson wrote:
On 03/09/2016 15:28, Mike Rivers wrote:

Realtraps, Auralex, Primacoustic, GIK - all their stuff is OK if you do
your homework, choose the right products, and put them in the right places.

Who was it that used to pop up in here mentioning his bass traps
whenever room treatment was mentioned?

That was Ethan from Realtraps. He's a good fellow. He not only sells some
excellent traps, his site may still have directions on building your own if you
are too cheap to buy from him.
--scott

Or, as in my case, you are outside his main shipping area...

It'd probably cost more to ship his stuff to me than make it.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Gary Eickmeier]

First, I don't see what bass traps have to do with slap echo and too much reverb. I have just gone through the process backwards - I had excellent acoustics and the wife wanted to have wood flooring installed. Well - you know how it is - I reasoned that I could put a few throw rugs down and get back to normal. Well, not quite.

The room is 20 x 30 with a cathedral ceiling running the length of it. I had thick carpeting to take care of the verticals. I put some half-round absorber/diffusers stuffed with fiberglass along the side walls as you get further back in the room - but they are placed staggered and not right across from each other. The rest was just a lot of overstuffed furniture.

With the wood flooring and some throw rugs now I have no slap echo but there is a reverberant "tail" after you yell something in there. I figure that is controlled simply by the amount of absorbent material that is in the room - sabins - regardless of where exactly it is. My carpeting did a magnificent job pulling down the reverberance.

Bottom line for me is leave the walls near the speakers pretty much alone, add some diffusion/absorption further back, and put most of the effort in the carpeting and furnishings. Some of these room corrector guys will try to put the materials all on the walls, which is counterproductive if you like wide, smooth response and spaciousness. One of these fellows wants to put a diffuser all across the front wall, which would be bad for imaging and focus (mono up the sound).

Gary Eickmeier



"Hikaru Ichijyo" wrote in message ...
I'll just put the question out the

Who makes good bass traps and diffusers that really work?

There will be some replies that contain real knowledge. And in the
Internet tradition practiced since antiquity by the ancients, it will
eventually devolve into a flame war about oxygen-free cable with gold
contacts, and there will be human sacrifices.

But seriously, who makes products that can really do something about a
boomy room with a lot of slapback echo coming off the walls?

--
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
--Thomas Paine

[Adrian Tuddenham[_2_]]

Scott Dorsey wrote:


On the other hand, there are rooms for which there is no hope. If you have
a cubical room with cement walls, the easiest thing to do is to build a new
room inside it with more appropriate dimensions.

....and non-parallel walls.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 9/3/2016 5:48 PM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Some of these room corrector guys will try to put the materials all on
the walls, which is counterproductive if you like wide, smooth response
and spaciousness. One of these fellows wants to put a diffuser all
across the front wall, which would be bad for imaging and focus (mono up
the sound).

You put absorbers where there are reflection points. It doesn't do any
good to put them where no sound goes. And reflections are OK as long as
they don't get to your ears through a path not much longer than the
direct path from the speakers to your ears. While diffusion will change
a harmful reflection into a bunch of nearly harmless and sometimes
beneficial reflections, it gives different results than absorbing the
reflection.

But there are all sorts of strategies when it comes to room treatment.
No two will get the same results, but may get equally good results. It
depends on what you're after.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Scott Dorsey]

Gary Eickmeier wrote:
First, I don't see what bass traps have to do with slap echo and too =
much reverb.

One of the side effects of bass traps is that they are also absorbing at
high frequencies.

So, once you get the low frequency problems in your room under control by
adding extensive bass traps, you may discover that you your high frequency
problems go away. In fact, you may find the high frequencies become dead
and you need to add diffusers to change that.

I have just gone through the process backwards - I had =
excellent acoustics and the wife wanted to have wood flooring installed. =
Well - you know how it is - I reasoned that I could put a few throw rugs =
down and get back to normal. Well, not quite.

The problem is that excellent acoustics for a listening room and for a
recording studio and for a piano practice room are all different. They
all require a uniform decay and no discrete echoes, but the degree of
reflection needed is different.

The problem with wood floors is that they are reflective and they are
directly parallel to another reflective surface, the ceiling. If you get
slap echoes from the floor, adding diffusion to the ceiling can eliminate
the slap while still keeping the room very reflective. For a listening
room you might want it more dead, but for a music room you might want it
more live.

The room is 20 x 30 with a cathedral ceiling running the length of it. I =
had thick carpeting to take care of the verticals. I put some half-round =
absorber/diffusers stuffed with fiberglass along the side walls as you =
get further back in the room - but they are placed staggered and not =
right across from each other. The rest was just a lot of overstuffed =
furniture.

The problem with thick carpeting is that it will absorb high frequencies
but leave your lower midrange and low freuencies unchanged. So you can
get into a "1970s studio" situation where the room is too dead on top but
still boomy.

With the wood flooring and some throw rugs now I have no slap echo but =
there is a reverberant "tail" after you yell something in there. I =
figure that is controlled simply by the amount of absorbent material =
that is in the room - sabins - regardless of where exactly it is. My =
carpeting did a magnificent job pulling down the reverberance.

Right, BUT to some extent you want some of that reverberation. The problem
is that you want the high and low frequencies to be balanced. If it is a
listening room you may well want one end to be much more dead than the other.

In the end you really don't know until you measure it.
--scott


Bottom line for me is leave the walls near the speakers pretty much =
alone, add some diffusion/absorption further back, and put most of the =
effort in the carpeting and furnishings. Some of these room corrector =
guys will try to put the materials all on the walls, which is =
counterproductive if you like wide, smooth response and spaciousness. =
One of these fellows wants to put a diffuser all across the front wall, =
which would be bad for imaging and focus (mono up the sound).

Gary Eickmeier



"Hikaru Ichijyo" wrote in message =
...
I'll just put the question out the
=20
Who makes good bass traps and diffusers that really work?
=20
There will be some replies that contain real knowledge. And in the
Internet tradition practiced since antiquity by the ancients, it will
eventually devolve into a flame war about oxygen-free cable with gold
contacts, and there will be human sacrifices.
=20
But seriously, who makes products that can really do something about a
boomy room with a lot of slapback echo coming off the walls?
=20
--=20
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy =
from
oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent
that will reach to himself.
--Thomas Paine
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DIVFONT size=3D2 face=3DArial/FONT /DIV
DIVFONT size=3D2 face=3DArialGary Eickmeier/FONT/DIV
DIVFONT size=3D2 face=3DArial/FONT /DIV
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DIV /DIV
DIVFONT size=3D2 face=3DArial"Hikaru Ichijyo" </FONTA=20
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/FONT/AFONT size=3D2 =
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I'll just put the=20
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diffusers=20
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contain real=20
knowledge.  And in theBR> Internet tradition practiced since =
antiquity=20
by the ancients, it willBR> eventually devolve into a flame war =
about=20
oxygen-free cable with goldBR> contacts, and there will be human=20
sacrifices.BR> BR> But seriously, who makes products that can =
really=20
do something about aBR> boomy room with a lot of slapback echo =
coming off=20
the walls?BR> BR> -- BR> He that would make his own =
liberty=20
secure must guard even his enemy fromBR> oppression; for if he =
violates=20
this duty, he establishes a precedentBR> that will reach to=20
himself.BR> --Thomas Paine/FONT/BODY/HTML

------=_NextPart_000_009B_01D2060B.541DC610--



--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Gary Eickmeier]

Hi Scott -

As you may remember what I am after is modeling my speaker locations and
reflection patterns after the live sound fields. I want my first reflections
to have the same freq response as the direct sound and I want it to combine
with the direct sound in a way that there is some summing localization
between not only left and right but also front and back A negative
directivity index combines with a specular reflectivity from front and side
walls near the speakers to give a soundstage as wide as the room and great
image depth, with speakers disappearing.

Basically I am treating the floor and the rear half of the side walls and
adding furnishings for a little more absorption. The important part is that
I do not want much reverberation from the room, but I do want to shape the
first and second reflections to come from the front and side walls. Speakers
must be pulled out into the room to incur a delay of approx 10 ms between
first arrival and first reflection. With this technique you can shape the
soundstage and its depth and spaciousness like a house of mirrors, any way
you want..

Gary Eickmeier


"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Gary Eickmeier wrote:
First, I don't see what bass traps have to do with slap echo and too =
much reverb.

One of the side effects of bass traps is that they are also absorbing at
high frequencies.

So, once you get the low frequency problems in your room under control by
adding extensive bass traps, you may discover that you your high frequency
problems go away. In fact, you may find the high frequencies become dead
and you need to add diffusers to change that.

I have just gone through the process backwards - I had =
excellent acoustics and the wife wanted to have wood flooring installed. =
Well - you know how it is - I reasoned that I could put a few throw rugs =
down and get back to normal. Well, not quite.

The problem is that excellent acoustics for a listening room and for a
recording studio and for a piano practice room are all different. They
all require a uniform decay and no discrete echoes, but the degree of
reflection needed is different.

The problem with wood floors is that they are reflective and they are
directly parallel to another reflective surface, the ceiling. If you get
slap echoes from the floor, adding diffusion to the ceiling can eliminate
the slap while still keeping the room very reflective. For a listening
room you might want it more dead, but for a music room you might want it
more live.

The room is 20 x 30 with a cathedral ceiling running the length of it. I =
had thick carpeting to take care of the verticals. I put some half-round =
absorber/diffusers stuffed with fiberglass along the side walls as you =
get further back in the room - but they are placed staggered and not =
right across from each other. The rest was just a lot of overstuffed =
furniture.

The problem with thick carpeting is that it will absorb high frequencies
but leave your lower midrange and low freuencies unchanged. So you can
get into a "1970s studio" situation where the room is too dead on top but
still boomy.

With the wood flooring and some throw rugs now I have no slap echo but =
there is a reverberant "tail" after you yell something in there. I =
figure that is controlled simply by the amount of absorbent material =
that is in the room - sabins - regardless of where exactly it is. My =
carpeting did a magnificent job pulling down the reverberance.

Right, BUT to some extent you want some of that reverberation. The
problem
is that you want the high and low frequencies to be balanced. If it is a
listening room you may well want one end to be much more dead than the
other.

In the end you really don't know until you measure it.
--scott


Bottom line for me is leave the walls near the speakers pretty much =
alone, add some diffusion/absorption further back, and put most of the =
effort in the carpeting and furnishings. Some of these room corrector =
guys will try to put the materials all on the walls, which is =
counterproductive if you like wide, smooth response and spaciousness. =
One of these fellows wants to put a diffuser all across the front wall, =
which would be bad for imaging and focus (mono up the sound).

Gary Eickmeier