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Peter Wieck Peter Wieck is offline
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On Aug 30, 12:19 pm, Andrew Barss wrote:

But a Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. goes faster and handles differently than
a Toyota. If SACD indeed doesn't produce audible differences from
regular CD, then it's like paying a premium for a car engine that
has exactly the same performance properties as a regular Toyota engine.
Which even an extreme gearhead wouldn't do.


But Audiophools... whoops... -philes do this all the time and with
even less discernable results. Often enough even those who actually
know better, sadly.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

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On Aug 30, 11:59 am, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
Jenn does not deny that she has hearing damage.


I don't feel the need to counter every ridiculous claim that is made.


Arny just can't forgive you, Jenn, for a) being a woman,
b) knowing more than he does about music, c) expressing
your preference for something he has _proved_ can't
be preferred, and d) there's that woman thing again. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile


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In article . com,
John Atkinson wrote:

On Aug 30, 11:59 am, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
Jenn does not deny that she has hearing damage.


I don't feel the need to counter every ridiculous claim that is made.


Arny just can't forgive you, Jenn, for a) being a woman,
b) knowing more than he does about music, c) expressing
your preference for something he has _proved_ can't
be preferred, and d) there's that woman thing again. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile


Well, yeah... ;-)
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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"John Atkinson" wrote
in message
ups.com
On Aug 30, 11:59 am, Jenn
wrote:
In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:
Jenn does not deny that she has hearing damage.


I don't feel the need to counter every ridiculous claim
that is made.


Arny just can't forgive you, Jenn, for a) being a woman,
b) knowing more than he does about music, c) expressing
your preference for something he has _proved_ can't
be preferred, and d) there's that woman thing again. :-)


John, I'd like to read your rationale for your fan.. I mean hypothesis that
I can't forgive Jenn for being a woman. If there is none, then I'll
attribute it to your well-known lack of sufficience rationality.


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"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
ups.com
I still remember the days when people were serious about
distributing pre-recorded open reel tapes.

Compared to vinyl, a 7.5 ips half or quarter track tape
could be quite a treat. Especially the half tracks.

But, compared to the CD format, 7.5 ips quarter track is
a very sonically limited medium. Frankly, it sometimes
has a tendency to take some of the life out of LPs
transcribed with it.


Consumo quarter inch open reel was usually not terribly
good, sadly.


That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking Revox A77 in a prime state of adjustment by a factory rep.





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Arny Krueger wrote:

Consumo quarter inch open reel was usually not terribly
good, sadly.


That's not what I'm talking about.


I'm talking Revox A77 in a prime state of adjustment by a factory rep.


Ah well, their were usually broken, or at least off compared to
testtapes, ex works because they playback amp was not modified to fit
the requirementes of the actual head (my understanding of something that
was explained to me) .... an A77 in a prime state of adjustment for
something other than Scotch 207 (Revox tape reportedly was just that),
that is something quite different. Mine was 3.5 dB down in replay of 18
kHz, ref a BASF test tape, with the factory fitted replay amp components
and consequently had that much less headroom than it should have had
when aligned for best record-playback performance.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen
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On Aug 30, 5:09 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
John, I'd like to read your rationale for your fan.. I mean hypothesis
that I can't forgive Jenn for being a woman. If there is none, then I'll
attribute it to your well-known lack of sufficience rationality.


There's no arguing with _that_ sentence!

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile



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"Bret Ludwig" wrote in message
ups.com...
Most consumo tape machines were poor too. But now it's possible to
find and refurbish vintage studio machines at hobbyist prices.


And even if you could actually afford the tape, the performance will still
be far below a cheap computer and sound card, let alone a good one!

But nostalgia still aint what it used to be :-)

MrT.




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Arny Krueger wrote:
"Robert Orban" wrote in message
news
Through hard experience I've found that with
recordings of this vintage, it really pays to find
sealed, unplayed copies even if one has to wait for them
to show up on eBay and even if one has to pay more. There
were a *lot* of bad phono playback systems in the late
60s, and even one play through some of them could audibly
damage the vinyl.


Finally, after doing this a hundred times or so I have to
observe that the audio quality of the run of the mill
vinyl from that era was pretty bad. It got a lot better
starting in mid-1969, probably because a new generation
of disc cutters was just coming on line.


I find
incomprehensible the affection that some people evidently
have for the audio quality of vinyl from that era.


Bob Orban



I feel a bit nervous entering this debate. However I think my comments
are worthwhile as I have been listening to recorded music for 50 years
on a huge variety of equipment.

Vinyl varied enormously. I can remember trekking back to HMV in Oxford
Street many times before I got a decent pressing of a particular album.
Contrary to some other postings I think that DG was amongst the best.
Then, despite having a Shure V15 that tracked at 0.8g, wear inevitably
set in and the noise levels crept up. Always of course most on the ones
that I liked most. Despite the greatest care, fingers got onto the
surface and other accidents added the pops and sizzles. Yes I recorded
all new records onto an A77 after an initial few listens. The tape type
wasn't so much of a problem because of the adjustable dolby level.
However there was loss.

There is a sound (!) argument that the analogue nature of vinyl should
have some advantages. The main one is that, subject to the stylus being
small and stable enough to track and to differentiate the information,
the result surely must be smoother. This should mean less distortion.
The buffs used to call this 'musicality'. Despite the various tricks
used by CD players to fill the in the steps, digital has steps between
adjacent samples. At 16 bit these can be quite large in power terms at
the highest audio levels. After all, 16 bit was chosen only because it
was the maximum you could use to fit one hour onto a standard CD. It
never was the optimum technical specification. When we start hearing 20
bit or better on DVD type disks the step issue should go.

What I like about CD is the silence. Oh, and the dynamic range. Oh, and
the resistance to minor damage. Oh, and being able to play it in my car.

I still listen to vinyl. Once my brain blots out the background noise, I
really do enjoy it. Now that I have a sound system that can reproduce
the whole audio range at a realistic level, I find that the dynamic
range, particularly low frequencies, is much better than I used to hear
on lesser systems. And it is ... er... musical!!

One last point. Just as people have forgotten what good live acting is
because of the crap they watch on TV, so MP3 has degraded people's idea
of what fidelity is. I exclude this ng of course. It is fine on
headphones and tweaked mini systems, but having got used to MP3, people
regard CD as wonderful. Music is now designed so that it sounds good on
such systems, just as Berry Gordy mixed motown to sound good on 6 x 4
car speakers. It's only when you listen to acoustic instruments with a
complex waveform and set of overtones, particularly orchestral ones like
the violin, or a grand piano, that you realise the limitations of CD and
MP3.

So I reckon all this discussion will stop when disk capacity is enough
to move to higher digital resolutions.

Peter Scott
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Byrns" wrote in message


I would be happier with a basically straight
transfer from LP to digital, with the only special
processing applied being some modest declicking.


I'd like to get away with that more often in the work I do. Trouble is,
most if not all of the LPs I end uptranscribing seem to need more
processing than that.



C'mon Arny. Stop the BS:-)) Recording engineer,
acoustics consultant, architect, recording engineer (!!!)
and now transcription engineer. Whatever next? :-)))

"Facts about Krooborg" states that you're a second-hand
computer repair man from Michigan!

Iain






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"John Atkinson" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Aug 30, 11:59 am, Jenn wrote:
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
Jenn does not deny that she has hearing damage.


I don't feel the need to counter every ridiculous claim that is made.


Arny just can't forgive you, Jenn, for a) being a woman,
b) knowing more than he does about music, c) expressing
your preference for something he has _proved_ can't
be preferred, and d) there's that woman thing again. :-)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile


Though I admire her perseverance, Jenn's argument with
Arny is futile. I get the impression Jenn is a gifted
musician with a high level of audio perception.

Arny, on the other hand, doesn't know a French horn from
a frying pan:-) Technically he is not a lot better either.
Ask him for a link to one of his choir "recordings"
of the Born Again Tambournine Bashers. Quite horrific!

The last time one of Arny's "recordings" escaped, I sent
it to a colleague who lectures in Recording Arts
at conservatory level. At the end of his lecture, he played
it to his students. There was a long embarrassed silence.
Most students had sickly grins on their faces - they
did not know whether to laugh or cry. Then one,
a very gifted young cellist, ran out from the auditorium
in tears. She told her fellow students later that she
thought the whole thing was a cruel sacrilegious hoax.

Iain





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"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Jenn" wrote in message
news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-
And that debate was finished a decade or two ago for *intelligent*

people.

If by "quality audio" you mean technical superiority, then I would go
with that. Past that, we're talking preference,


Which is what I said.

Anyone may still PREFER to listen to anything they like, the problem

they
have is accepting that they may PREFER something that is actually

INFERIOR
to the original sound. Hence their continued need to convince

themselves.

No, it's very simple: if a person likes the sound of some recording,
based on his/her experience of that music, "inferior" has nothing to do
with it. By definition, for that person, it is "superior".


And that's the problem, you still can't seperate PREFERENCE from reality.
The recording that most closely matches the original input signal is
technically "superior" no matter what YOU might PREFER.



In that case, Mr T, vinyl is, at least as far as most pop
recordings are concerned, the winner. You clearly have
no experience in CD mastering of pop material on a professional
level or you would know that rarely does the pre-production
CD bear a close resemblance to the studio master (or "input signal"
as you seem to prefer to call it)

Here we have the crux of the matter. Analaogue disc cutting is
incredibly skilled, with the object of the excercise being to
cut a lacquer as close as possible to the studio master. Any
fool can make it different (that is, if he has the courage to
lower the cutting stylus to the lacquer:-))

Now, due the commercial pressures, and "louder is better"
school of thought, a thriving industry in CD mastering has
emerged. Mastering is regarded as another step in the
production chain, where sometimes horrificdecisions are taken
in the attempt to give the public what they (think they) want.

Iain




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"MiNe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message

In article
, "Arny
Krueger" wrote:

"Robert Orban" wrote in
message
news
Through hard experience I've found that with
recordings of this vintage, it really pays to find
sealed, unplayed copies even if one has to wait for
them to show up on eBay and even if one has to pay
more. There were a *lot* of bad phono playback
systems in the late 60s, and even one play through
some of them could audibly damage the vinyl.

Finally, after doing this a hundred times or so I have
to observe that the audio quality of the run of the
mill vinyl from that era was pretty bad. It got a lot
better starting in mid-1969, probably because a new
generation of disc cutters was just coming on line.

I find
incomprehensible the affection that some people
evidently have for the audio quality of vinyl from
that era.

Bob Orban

Who is Robert Orban?

Nice appeal to authority.

If you and Jen promise to never appeal to authority,
personal or otherwise, I'll do the same. ;-)

Appeals to authority are usually in service of an
argument.

Was someone arguing in favor of
damaged, poor-quality vinyl?

Nice job of missing the point of the second paragraph,
Stephen. "Distractions R U", right? ;-)

Most lps were junk. Who was saying otherwise?


Come on Stephen, the truth is that compared to a well-made digital
recording, the very best LP ever made was still, noisy, colored, and
distorted junk.


That's an opinion. As for "still," one spins vinyl.

It should be pretty obvious to an unbiased reader (not
Stephen or Jen for example) that the second paragraph
refers to undamaged, even completely virgin LPs. The
point of the first paragraph is that Orban has very high
standards for choosing and preparing LPs for digitizing.
But even given that, the LP format still falls way short
of modern standards for quality audio.


The first paragraph doesn't mention digitizing at all.


Come on Stephen, I posted a link to the whole post. The original post on
RAO could be linked to the OP I quoted on RAP in two clicks. Can you
possibly bring yourself to judge a statement in its proper context?


That brings up the question of why you crossposted while suppressing the
group in which it originated.

Still, in cases of deteriorated or missing original
master tapes, an LP transfer might be the best way to
hear a specific recording.


In the absence of superior options which often abound, we sometimes must
get
desperate and dab some makeup on LP's sonic piggishness, in order to just
enjoy the music.


Straight transfers, a little de-clicking, and there you are.

Indeed. A little *manual* declicking - I might add.
Don't be taken in by Arny's BS. He's a computer repair man:-)

Iain



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"MiNe 109" wrote in message
...

Still, in cases of deteriorated or missing original master tapes, an lp
transfer might be the best way to hear a specific recording.


From tape to vinyl is a three, four, or five step process. Any of the
"negatives" from these intermediate steps can be used for
transcription in CD mastering. This is often done.

Transfer from a pressing is the least desirable option.

Iain




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Iain Churches wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote

Still, in cases of deteriorated or missing original master tapes, an lp
transfer might be the best way to hear a specific recording.


From tape to vinyl is a three, four, or five step process. Any of the
"negatives" from these intermediate steps can be used for
transcription in CD mastering. This is often done.

Transfer from a pressing is the least desirable option.


Maybe you should explain how the stampers are generated ?

Graham



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On Sep 3, 5:02 am, "Iain Churches" wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message

...

"John Byrns" wrote in message
I would be happier with a basically straight
transfer from LP to digital, with the only special
processing applied being some modest declicking.


I'd like to get away with that more often in the work I do. Trouble is,
most if not all of the LPs I end uptranscribing seem to need more
processing than that.


C'mon Arny. Stop the BS:-)) Recording engineer,
acoustics consultant, architect, recording engineer (!!!)
and now transcription engineer. Whatever next? :-)))

"Facts about Krooborg" states that you're a second-hand
computer repair man from Michigan!

Iain



he is a retired man
from an automaker
time and ambition is his to claim.

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Iain Churches said:

"Facts about Krooborg" states that you're a second-hand
computer repair man from Michigan!


Also Chrysler Ashtray Designer Emeritus. (It says so on his toilet paper.)




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Robert Orban wrote:
In article , says...

Itchykoo Park used to be famous for the really, really deep kick drum,
which sounded like cardboard on small speakers. It was the lowest I
had ever seen anyone cut on a 45, and there was no way that record could
be played on a typical record player of the sixties. The CD reissue
turns it into a modern-style kick drum. It's a totally different song
when you do this.


I understand your point, but I would ask you this -- *what* sound was in the
head of the producer? Was it as heard on Altec A7's? UREI's? JBL's? All of
those speakers were significantly colored and all sounded different from each
other, so the sound "in the producer's head" might be quite different than the
sound we hear on modern, well-engineered loudspeakers and might have been
different if the producer had mixed in a different control room with different
acoustics and/or a different model of loudspeaker.


Absolutely! This is completely true, and it's something you can't ever
really deal with.

On one side of the line we have the folks in Japan paying huge amounts of
money for old Altec studio monitors in an attempt to recreate the sound
heard on the original playback.

On the other side of the line we have mastering engineers with presets
in their head... I know folks who would listen to something, say instantly,
"Wow, that was mixed on NS-10s" and instantly dial in an NS-10 correction
curve to compensate, so that folks listening on fairly flat systems would
get something approaching the effect the original production folks did.

Lots of stuff in the seventies was screechy to the point of being hard to
cut on vinyl, because of the aggressive use of narrowband monitors and
cocaine in that era. I have trouble listening to that stuff without grabbing
the tone controls. You could argue I am doing the recording integrity a
disservice by doing that, and I would probably agree, but I'll keep doing
it anyway.

As I stated in my post, I prefer to try to "correct" spectral balances that I
believe were probably caused by colored loudspeakers in the original mixdown
room or in the mastering room. I can only justify this by (1) my personal
preference (I'm not getting paid for my restoration work :-) and (2)
experiments done by Sean Olive and Floyd Toole on consumer loudspeaker
preference. With reference to the "remastering" controversy, what I take away
from Olive and Toole's work is that people seem to have a pretty well-defined
model in their brains of what a natural spectral balance should sound like and
they consistently prefer loudspeakers that supply this to them. Thanks largely
to O&T's work, today's popular loudspeakers are not only less colored than any
time in the past but also sound closer to each other regarding spectral
balance. It's amazing what you can get in a $250 loudspeaker today (from
companies like PSB, Mirage, Energy, etc., not to mention the speaker
manufacturers under the Harman banner) compared to what you could get even 10
years ago.


I am not familiar with the Toole work you're referring to, but it sounds
very interesting. I'd love to see a citation. I've always attributed the
different sonic character of various nation's loudspeaker designs to local
sonic preferences (ie. the propensity of American home speakers to have flabby
out of control bass, of British speakers to have restricted but tight bass,
of Japanese speakers to be smiley filtered). Maybe that's not true.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote

Still, in cases of deteriorated or missing original master tapes, an lp
transfer might be the best way to hear a specific recording.


From tape to vinyl is a three, four, or five step process. Any of the
"negatives" from these intermediate steps can be used for
transcription in CD mastering. This is often done.

Transfer from a pressing is the least desirable option.


Maybe you should explain how the stampers are generated ?


I am referring to original metalwork.
You cannot use a stamper - it's a positive:-)

Iain

PS. The world is still waiting for your improved definition of the
term "dBm", Graham



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"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
...


Iain Churches said:

"Facts about Krooborg" states that you're a second-hand
computer repair man from Michigan!


Also Chrysler Ashtray Designer Emeritus. (It says so on his toilet paper.)

How could someone so cruelly mis-inform me on such an important
matter? :-)





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On 3 Sep, 18:13, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:


Lots of stuff in the seventies was screechy to the point of being hard to
cut on vinyl, because of the aggressive use of narrowband monitors and
cocaine in that era.


It's almost impossible to cut cocaine on vinyl. CD's do better for
that,
though they are way to small. But the smooth frequency response
makes it possible.

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In article i,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote

Still, in cases of deteriorated or missing original master tapes, an lp
transfer might be the best way to hear a specific recording.

From tape to vinyl is a three, four, or five step process. Any of the
"negatives" from these intermediate steps can be used for
transcription in CD mastering. This is often done.

Transfer from a pressing is the least desirable option.


Maybe you should explain how the stampers are generated ?


I am referring to original metalwork.
You cannot use a stamper - it's a positive:-)


I am confused by your use of the term "positive", can you define the
meaning of the word "positive" in disk cutting? Are you saying that the
final LP the consumer buys is a "negative"?


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/
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"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
ups.com...
On 3 Sep, 18:13, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:


Lots of stuff in the seventies was screechy to the point of being hard to
cut on vinyl, because of the aggressive use of narrowband monitors and
cocaine in that era.


It's almost impossible to cut cocaine on vinyl. CD's do better for
that,
though they are way to small. But the smooth frequency response
makes it possible.


I've seen DJs pour lines on to decks while they are spinning and snort it
off them before the stylus gets to that point.

Phildo


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Iain Churches said:

"Facts about Krooborg" states that you're a second-hand
computer repair man from Michigan!


Also Chrysler Ashtray Designer Emeritus. (It says so on his toilet paper.)


How could someone so cruelly mis-inform me on such an important
matter? :-)


That's what you get for relying on underground reference books. The
Resistance's official handbook on audio 'borgism is quite comprehensive.




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In article , Phildo wrote:
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
On 3 Sep, 18:13, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:


Lots of stuff in the seventies was screechy to the point of being hard to
cut on vinyl, because of the aggressive use of narrowband monitors and
cocaine in that era.


It's almost impossible to cut cocaine on vinyl. CD's do better for
that,
though they are way to small. But the smooth frequency response
makes it possible.


I've seen DJs pour lines on to decks while they are spinning and snort it
off them before the stylus gets to that point.


Well, it least it's readily soluble so the vacuum machine can get the
residue out, unlike with the candle wax....
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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"George M. Middius" cmndr _ george @ comcast . net wrote in message
news


Iain Churches said:

"Facts about Krooborg" states that you're a second-hand
computer repair man from Michigan!


Also Chrysler Ashtray Designer Emeritus. (It says so on his toilet
paper.)


How could someone so cruelly mis-inform me on such an important
matter? :-)


That's what you get for relying on underground reference books. The
Resistance's official handbook on audio 'borgism is quite comprehensive.

´



I received an e-mail circular some years ago, when I first
began "discussions" with Arny on UKRA.
This was prior to his being born again. At that time he
had quite the foulest mouth of anyone on Usenet)

The e-mail was entitled "Facts About Krooborg". I gave it only a
cursory glance, but the "computer repair man" stuck in my mind for
some reason.

I exchange an e-mail now and again with a second generation
Danish American. He calls Arny "Kruborg" Good Danish
humour:-)




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"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article i,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote

Still, in cases of deteriorated or missing original master tapes, an
lp
transfer might be the best way to hear a specific recording.

From tape to vinyl is a three, four, or five step process. Any of the
"negatives" from these intermediate steps can be used for
transcription in CD mastering. This is often done.

Transfer from a pressing is the least desirable option.

Maybe you should explain how the stampers are generated ?


I am referring to original metalwork.
You cannot use a stamper - it's a positive:-)


I am confused by your use of the term "positive", can you define the
meaning of the word "positive" in disk cutting? Are you saying that the
final LP the consumer buys is a "negative"?



Once again I cannot vouch for the terminology that may be used in the
US. I can only tell you what we used in the UK when I was there.

The first link in the chain is the lacquer, cut from the
master tape. It could be played like any other disc,
if you had an arm that could accomodate its 14
inch diameter. Yes, you are correct. It can be regarded
as a negative, (the logic being that the grooves are below
the surface of the disc) Try not to think in photographic terms.

Lacquers going for production were carefully inspected
with a microscope, but *never* played.

The next step is the silver deposit into the grooves of this lacquer
to make a positive. What were grooves on the lacquer
are raised "moraine" type lines. This we called the
stamper. One can make a further negative from this by the
same plating process. This was called the "matrix" and needs
to be carefully "peeled" away from the stamper.

The number which you will see on the vinyl (in the case of
Decca cuts always besides the lock point in the scroll out)
is the matrix number, which tells you who the cutting
engineer was, and how many times this particular
side has been cut. The factory ask for a recut in the event
that stampers are worn or damaged and new ones cannot
be grown.

On a very short run, just one positive stamper would suffice.
For medium runs, new stampers can be grown from the matrix
(which being a negative, i.e. having grooves, can also be played)
This is the metal which is used for transcription if required for
CD pre-mastering. They have an incredibly quiet surface.

One could go even a step further and make a "mother" from
which multiple "matrices"are made, where metal was
required for local pressing work by overseas agents.

Many record companies that still have metalwork from
the 78rpm days, use a metal matrix for CD transfer. These
too sound quite remarkable. I have ben involved in several
such projects of early jazz material. Metalwork must never be
cleaned or polished. It has an adverse effect on the background
noise. A stained matrix sounds a lot better than its cosmetic
appearance would lead you to believe.

I have some ABBA neg metals from my days at RCA. I play them
now and again. Quite remarkable.

Iain






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"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi...

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote

Still, in cases of deteriorated or missing original master tapes, an
lp
transfer might be the best way to hear a specific recording.

From tape to vinyl is a three, four, or five step process. Any of the
"negatives" from these intermediate steps can be used for
transcription in CD mastering. This is often done.

Transfer from a pressing is the least desirable option.


Maybe you should explain how the stampers are generated ?


I am referring to original metalwork.
You cannot use a stamper - it's a positive:-)


Iain has apparently never heard of those special styli ground to ride on the
top of the raised groove of a stamper.


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The Krooborg takes heart from Queenie Catie's mindless flailing on behalf
of scientism.

I am referring to original metalwork.
You cannot use a stamper - it's a positive:-)


Iain has apparently never heard


Trite "debating trade" ploy by the Krooborg. Point to Mr. Churches.



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"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article i,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote

Still, in cases of deteriorated or missing original master tapes, an
lp
transfer might be the best way to hear a specific recording.

From tape to vinyl is a three, four, or five step process. Any of the
"negatives" from these intermediate steps can be used for
transcription in CD mastering. This is often done.

Transfer from a pressing is the least desirable option.

Maybe you should explain how the stampers are generated ?


I am referring to original metalwork.
You cannot use a stamper - it's a positive:-)


I am confused by your use of the term "positive", can you define the
meaning of the word "positive" in disk cutting?


Postive does not relate to cutting, it relates to preparing the dies for
stamping.

A positive has a groove configuration that is similar to the original
lacquer and the final LP.

The stamper, and the father are negatives.

There are a number of different processes that are used, depending on the
size of the production run. The simplest is where the lacquer plated to
create a mother, and the mother is plated to create a stamper. For longer
runs, the process is: lacquer plated to create a mother, the mother plated
to make a father, the father plated to create stamper. & etc.

Plating steps can be repeated to make more copies of the next step at the
cost of some wear and tear on the master. For example, a mother can be
plated several times to make several fathers, and so on.

Are you saying that the
final LP the consumer buys is a "negative"?


No, he gets a positive.




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"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Byrns" wrote in message


I would be happier with a basically straight
transfer from LP to digital, with the only special
processing applied being some modest declicking.


I'd like to get away with that more often in the work I do. Trouble is,
most if not all of the LPs I end uptranscribing seem to need more
processing than that.


C'mon Arny. Stop the BS:-)) Recording engineer,
acoustics consultant, architect, recording engineer (!!!)
and now transcription engineer. Whatever next? :-)))


Whatever next?

I perform all the corresponding tasks for lighting and video as well.

PAR cans, DMX, RGBVH, DLP, HDTV, MPEG, all spoken and performed here.


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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...

I am not familiar with the Toole work you're referring to, but it sounds
very interesting. I'd love to see a citation.


ADAIK, its one of the white papers on the Harmon web site.

I've always attributed the
different sonic character of various nation's loudspeaker designs to local
sonic preferences (ie. the propensity of American home speakers to have
flabby
out of control bass, of British speakers to have restricted but tight
bass,
of Japanese speakers to be smiley filtered).


Probably true at one time.

Maybe that's not true.


IME speaker sound has become more internationalized.


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"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message
...

"Jenn" wrote in message
news:jennconductsREMOVETHIS-
And that debate was finished a decade or two ago for *intelligent*

people.

If by "quality audio" you mean technical superiority, then I would go
with that. Past that, we're talking preference,


Which is what I said.

Anyone may still PREFER to listen to anything they like, the problem

they
have is accepting that they may PREFER something that is actually

INFERIOR
to the original sound. Hence their continued need to convince

themselves.

No, it's very simple: if a person likes the sound of some recording,
based on his/her experience of that music, "inferior" has nothing to do
with it. By definition, for that person, it is "superior".


And that's the problem, you still can't seperate PREFERENCE from reality.
The recording that most closely matches the original input signal is
technically "superior" no matter what YOU might PREFER.



In that case, Mr T, vinyl is, at least as far as most pop
recordings are concerned, the winner.


True 30 years ago. But, the market has evolved.

You clearly have
no experience in CD mastering of pop material on a professional
level or you would know that rarely does the pre-production
CD bear a close resemblance to the studio master (or "input signal"
as you seem to prefer to call it)


YMMV, but that is often true.

However this was even more the case with vinyl. You can put anything on a CD
that you can put on any digital master - only with a possible slight
inaudble loss of resolution. In contrast, it is quite east to make a digital
master that can never be cut on a practically usable LP. Therefore, LPs are
of necessity further removed from the master.

Here we have the crux of the matter. Analaogue disc cutting is
incredibly skilled, with the object of the excercise being to
cut a lacquer as close as possible to the studio master.


Again, it is a trivial matter to create a digital master that will never be
able to be cut on a practically usable LP. The same master can often be
bit-for-bit reproduced on a CD.



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"Peter Scott" wrote in message
...
Despite the various tricks
used by CD players to fill the in the steps, digital has steps between
adjacent samples.


Not when dithered, a necessary part of the process.

At 16 bit these can be quite large in power terms at
the highest audio levels. After all, 16 bit was chosen only because it
was the maximum you could use to fit one hour onto a standard CD. It
never was the optimum technical specification. When we start hearing 20
bit or better on DVD type disks the step issue should go.


So please name ONE single CD that uses over 90dB DNR, and may actually
benefit from having more than 96dB?
Now tell me where you propose to listen to it? :-)

What I like about CD is the silence. Oh, and the dynamic range.


And yet you still claim 16 bits is inadequate, despite no commercial disks
using the full potential of standard CD performance.

So I reckon all this discussion will stop when disk capacity is enough
to move to higher digital resolutions.


So why hasn't SACD done it already then?

MrT.


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"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...
And that's the problem, you still can't seperate PREFERENCE from

reality.
The recording that most closely matches the original input signal is
technically "superior" no matter what YOU might PREFER.


In that case, Mr T, vinyl is, at least as far as most pop
recordings are concerned, the winner.


Thanks for pointing out you have no idea of the difference between the
possible system performance and an actual musical performance.

You clearly have
no experience in CD mastering of pop material on a professional
level or you would know that rarely does the pre-production
CD bear a close resemblance to the studio master (or "input signal"
as you seem to prefer to call it)


And you would clearly be both wrong and irrelevant.

Now, due the commercial pressures, and "louder is better"
school of thought, a thriving industry in CD mastering has
emerged. Mastering is regarded as another step in the
production chain, where sometimes horrificdecisions are taken
in the attempt to give the public what they (think they) want.


Which was often the case with vinyl as well, and has NOTHING to do with the
format.
But thanks for pointing out the limits of your understanding.

MrT.




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"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...
Don't be taken in by Arny's BS. He's a computer repair man:-)


At least he can do something useful then, not just make stupid insults!

MrT.


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In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"John Byrns" wrote in message
...
In article i,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote

Still, in cases of deteriorated or missing original master tapes, an
lp
transfer might be the best way to hear a specific recording.

From tape to vinyl is a three, four, or five step process. Any of the
"negatives" from these intermediate steps can be used for
transcription in CD mastering. This is often done.

Transfer from a pressing is the least desirable option.

Maybe you should explain how the stampers are generated ?

I am referring to original metalwork.
You cannot use a stamper - it's a positive:-)


I am confused by your use of the term "positive", can you define the
meaning of the word "positive" in disk cutting?


Postive does not relate to cutting, it relates to preparing the dies for
stamping.

A positive has a groove configuration that is similar to the original
lacquer and the final LP.

The stamper, and the father are negatives.

There are a number of different processes that are used, depending on the
size of the production run. The simplest is where the lacquer plated to
create a mother, and the mother is plated to create a stamper. For longer
runs, the process is: lacquer plated to create a mother, the mother plated
to make a father, the father plated to create stamper. & etc.

Plating steps can be repeated to make more copies of the next step at the
cost of some wear and tear on the master. For example, a mother can be
plated several times to make several fathers, and so on.

Are you saying that the
final LP the consumer buys is a "negative"?


No, he gets a positive.


But Iain said "You cannot use a stamper - it's a positive", how can both
the stamper and the LP both be "positive"? I think Iain has another
definition for "positive".


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
ti.fi...

"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote

Still, in cases of deteriorated or missing original master tapes, an
lp
transfer might be the best way to hear a specific recording.

From tape to vinyl is a three, four, or five step process. Any of the
"negatives" from these intermediate steps can be used for
transcription in CD mastering. This is often done.

Transfer from a pressing is the least desirable option.


Maybe you should explain how the stampers are generated ?


I am referring to original metalwork.
You cannot use a stamper - it's a positive:-)


Iain has apparently never heard of those special styli ground to ride on
the top of the raised groove of a stamper.

Indeed I have. Decca used to make them for studio use.
AFAIK they were not available to the public.



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"John Byrns" wrote in message
...

But Iain said "You cannot use a stamper - it's a positive", how can both
the stamper and the LP both be "positive"? I think Iain has another
definition for "positive".



Hello John. I described the process in the terminology we we used
at Decca to you in a post yesterday. Afer this I received a message
from a guy who works as the Swedish mint in Stockholm. He told
me that the stamper used to strike coins and medals, which has the
raised surface, is also called a "positiv"

Similarly, he pointed out, in map making, countours above sea level
are termed positive contours, so this logic is not un-common.

I would not be at all surprised if you use opposite/different terms
in the US. In Europe we have a history of seeing things
differently:-)

Some of these have been discussed on RAT: Plate/anode,
common cathode/cathode coupled, tube/valve etc etc.
Many of the German and UK equipment makers and
studios used at one time what seemed a much more
sensible convention for wiring XLR connectors.
1-Ground, 2.Cld, 3 Hot.

But, call it what you will, the fact still remains, that,
without the use of the inverted stylus which Arny
mentioned, one cannot normally transcribe
from a stamper.

Best regards
Iain



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Mr.T wrote:
"Peter Scott" wrote in message
...
Despite the various tricks
used by CD players to fill the in the steps, digital has steps between
adjacent samples.


Not when dithered, a necessary part of the process.


Doesn't alter the argument that there are steps that have to be filled
in by some technique. The real in-fill information is not there.



And yet you still claim 16 bits is inadequate, despite no commercial disks
using the full potential of standard CD performance.


If 16 bits is adequate why are recordings made at, and broadcast data
links use, higher resolutions?




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