A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no
digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the
case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the
impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are
there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse?

In other words, should I go buy a 140 if I like that thick plate sound
(which I believe do)? I have never heard a plate in person so I have
nothing to compare with. There's a stereo tube one (with remote) for
sale at this end of the country:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=3278&item=
3755947193&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW


--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

Jay Levitt wrote:
A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no
digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the
case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the
impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are
there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse?

I played with the Sony sampling reverb, and the plate sample on it sounded
an awful lot like a real plate. Enough that I'd want to hear it side by
side with the real thing before I make any actual decision. But, it costs
more than the real thing.

In other words, should I go buy a 140 if I like that thick plate sound
(which I believe do)? I have never heard a plate in person so I have
nothing to compare with. There's a stereo tube one (with remote) for
sale at this end of the country:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=3278&item=
3755947193&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

So ask the man if you can go in and play with it before bidding. If you
like it, get it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Jay Levitt wrote in message ...
A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no
digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the
case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the
impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are
there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse?

In other words, should I go buy a 140 if I like that thick plate sound
(which I believe do)? I have never heard a plate in person so I have
nothing to compare with. There's a stereo tube one (with remote) for
sale at this end of the country:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=3278&item=
3755947193&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

good question, especially with the quality of convolution verbs these
days. i guess you could approach this with a question as to the
general quality of sampled verbs -- ie, have you successfully
"sampled" a room or system? i haven't done so myself, so i don't have
firsthand knowledge at how good the convolution process is.

hmmmm. i wonder if some systems sample better than others. seems to
me that sampling a digital reverb would be pretty simple, whereas a
real room could be tricky.

i have a modified emt140 (jim cunningham's high output pickups in
162amp (stereo solid state)) -- and it's a beast -- sonics and
maintenance, oh and size.

i don't know if someone has sampled on for altiverb, eg, but i don't
think you'd be disappointed if you pick one up.

cheers,
chris deckard
saint louis mo

Jay Levitt wrote:

A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no
digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the
case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the
impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are
there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse?

Not sure if there are any of signifigance in a real plate
but, as it appears that you understand, if there are then
they won't be reproduced by convolution.

If there are, I doubt that they would add anything
particularly pleasant, though. IR measurement can easily
discard non-linear effects so that the portion that is
exactly reproducable by convolution might well sound better
than the real thing.

Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Jay Levitt
A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no
digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the
case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the
impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are
there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse?

In other words, should I go buy a 140 if I like that thick plate sound
(which I believe do)? I have never heard a plate in person so I have
nothing to compare with. There's a stereo tube one (with remote) for
sale at this end of the country:

You should be aware moving a Plate reverb takes a few guys, and you will
likely pop a few springs doing it. Certainly if you try to tune it you'll pop
a few springs as well, it's part of the process typically to tighten until a
spring breaks (noting the tension) and then tightening the replacement to just
before where the previous spring broke.

But Convolution Reverbs are *really really good*, see for yourself. If
you have a Mac g4 you can download the Altiverb Demo from Audioease.com and the
impulse response of Wendy Carlos (of Switched On Bach fame)'s EMT Plate that
she has offered up for posterity. If you have a PC there are free Convolution
Reverbs available online, google the SIR software. Download a few rooms from
Audioease as well and give it a listen.

They are very real sounding, although the quality of the room sampling
obviously is a major issue (I mention this because there is a glut of free
sampled rooms available online at places like noisevault.com for free, but many
of them sound like crap because the recordists didn't do a good job.)

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

In article writes:

I played with the Sony sampling reverb, and the plate sample on it sounded
an awful lot like a real plate. Enough that I'd want to hear it side by
side with the real thing before I make any actual decision. But, it costs
more than the real thing.

Takes up a lot less space, though. And while it costs less than you
can buy an old one for today, I'll bet that, considering inflation, it
doesn't cost more than a new one. But then 40 year old plates are
still in use. I doubt that a Sony sampling reverb will be in use 40
years from now.

Jay Levitt wrote:

In other words, should I go buy a 140 if I like that thick plate sound
(which I believe do)? I have never heard a plate in person so I have
nothing to compare with.

Go visit it. Hopefully it's installed so you can hear it. There's some
juju involved in adjusting the tension on the plate, and there have
been several aftermarket pickups and amplifiers used with the EMT
(among which was a stereo conversion). The only way to know what
you're getting is to listen to it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article , says...
Jay Levitt wrote:
A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no
digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the
case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the
impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are
there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse?

I played with the Sony sampling reverb, and the plate sample on it sounded
an awful lot like a real plate. Enough that I'd want to hear it side by
side with the real thing before I make any actual decision. But, it costs
more than the real thing.

Right, I saw that post in Google... I was wondering if anyone'd done
such a comparison since then. Convolution reverb engines in software
are now a hundred bucks or less (some are free), and I've seen free
plate samples online as well - as someone pointed out, you can get Wendy
Carlos's (solid-state) 140 plate for free.

They sound nice, and they're my usual go-to reverb for vocals; I wonder
if a real one is even nicer.

In other words, should I go buy a 140 if I like that thick plate sound
(which I believe do)? I have never heard a plate in person so I have
nothing to compare with. There's a stereo tube one (with remote) for
sale at this end of the country:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=3278&item=
3755947193&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

So ask the man if you can go in and play with it before bidding. If you
like it, get it.

I guess I don't trust my own ears enough yet to compare it out of
context of my own studio; I don't have the experience. OTOH I'm afraid
to lose an opportunity; I get the impression that stereo-tube-remote
140s in recent service are not incredibly common, and this one's only a
few hours away, which makes shipping cheaper.

On the third hand, they say, and have reconfirmed, that their plate is
not more than 300 pounds, and probably less - two skinny guys moved it
easily. But various web sites claim a 140 is supposed to be 425 pounds
(danalexander) or even 600 pounds (Universal Audio), so now I'm even
more confused - are there different models/sizes of 140? This one is
about 4 x 8 feet.

On the fourth hand, does a plate need to be in any particular kind of
space? I have a climate-controlled garage; will that do, or do the
acoustics of the room affect the plate sound? I know the chamber is
supposed to be somewhat soundproof, but I also seem to recall that
studios used to hang plates in iso rooms.

One suggestion someone had was to rent some time in a local studio with
a 140, bring a cowbell or two, and compare the reverbed cowbell with an
impulse taken from the same plate.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

Jay Levitt
I guess I don't trust my own ears enough yet to compare it out of
context of my own studio; I don't have the experience. OTOH I'm afraid
to lose an opportunity; I get the impression that stereo-tube-remote
140s in recent service are not incredibly common, and this one's only a
few hours away, which makes shipping cheaper.

The $1800 reserve seemed a bit high to me - but that might just reflect my
ahem, "thrifty" approach to gear aquisition. Maybe a plate can pay for itself
in how it atracts clients in your market - I dunno. But a good convolution
reverb program can be used with impulses from everything from a plate to a
Lexicon 480 - Quantec reverb to a Manley Voxbox with the cool passive
inductors. A bit more flexible and easier on the wallet.

On the third hand, they say, and have reconfirmed, that their plate is
not more than 300 pounds, and probably less - two skinny guys moved it
easily. But various web sites claim a 140 is supposed to be 425 pounds
(danalexander) or even 600 pounds (Universal Audio), so now I'm even
more confused - are there different models/sizes of 140? This one is
about 4 x 8 feet.

I think you still need 4 guys to move a plate properly even if it's a light
weight plate. You are supposed to put a couple of pipes through the slots in
the box with 2 guys front and 2 guys back, and carry it that way. If the
broker is unaware of this fact or just glossing it over, I wonder if he can be
trusted to properly pack the plate for shipping.

Have you read what Dan Alexander advises about properly packing and
shipping a plate reverb? He says he killed a bunch of plates before he figured
out how to do it without totally shearing off all the clips and destroying them
in transit.

http://www.danalexanderaudio.com/tips.html#Packing

If the broker was selling the plate for closer to $1000 than $2000 and I
was close enough to move it myself, it would sound more tempting to me
personally. I think I have the space in my garage for it next to the
chipper... g

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

Jay Levitt wrote:

I guess I don't trust my own ears enough yet to compare it out of
context of my own studio; I don't have the experience. OTOH I'm afraid
to lose an opportunity; I get the impression that stereo-tube-remote
140s in recent service are not incredibly common, and this one's only a
few hours away, which makes shipping cheaper.

On the third hand, they say, and have reconfirmed, that their plate is
not more than 300 pounds, and probably less - two skinny guys moved it
easily. But various web sites claim a 140 is supposed to be 425 pounds
(danalexander) or even 600 pounds (Universal Audio), so now I'm even
more confused - are there different models/sizes of 140? This one is
about 4 x 8 feet.

On the fourth hand, does a plate need to be in any particular kind of
space? I have a climate-controlled garage; will that do, or do the
acoustics of the room affect the plate sound? I know the chamber is
supposed to be somewhat soundproof, but I also seem to recall that
studios used to hang plates in iso rooms.

One suggestion someone had was to rent some time in a local studio with
a 140, bring a cowbell or two, and compare the reverbed cowbell with an
impulse taken from the same plate.


I'm a big fan of a real plate. We have a solid state 140
stereo with Jim Cunningham pickups. It's a really
beautiful sound and our experience is that we use our
digital verbs very little compared to the 140. A little
touch of plate here and there really glues a mix
together in way that I find very pleasing. Generally
speaking, if you bought this one and it's in decent
condition, I think you will be very happy you did. I've
not used the impulse reverbs so I couldn't compare, but
have heard very positive comments about those also.

As for moving, I always understood that they weigh about
400 + lbs. When moving it, you can remove the sides
which cuts the weight down a bit. There are plates on
each ends with holes in them. If you stick a steel rod
(like a mic stand) across each end inside the lifting
plates two people can move one fairly easily, but 4
would be better. Make sure you get the moving
instructions first to prep it properly, otherwise you'll
be sorry. Both Dan A. and Jim C. have those instructions.

Ours in mounted on top of some neoprene rubber pads and
we have no problems with physical vibrations. You can
hang them from chains off of ceiling rafters also. That
was a common method. It will require tuning after you
install it. This is a difficult and frustrating job. You
will break a few clips doing so, but that is normal. It
will also be a lot of work running the audio and remote
control wires out to your garage, so budget time and $
for that. I think your climate controlled garage will be
a fine location except when a car is going in and out of
course. It does nead to be about 8 inches away from the
wall, but that's no big deal.

It's like owning a old sports car. High performance has
it's price. There will be lot's or hard work involved
but I think it is well worth it. There is lots of info
from previous posts over the years. Do a google search
and read up. Best of luck...

--
--
John Noll
Retromedia Sound Studios
Red Bank, NJ



visit the new website: http://www.retromedia.net

In article , WillStG
wrote:

If you have a Mac g4 you can download the Altiverb Demo from Audioease.com and
the
impulse response of Wendy Carlos (of Switched On Bach fame)'s EMT Plate that
she has offered up for posterity.


Will, does the demo work normally or does it still beep every couple of
seconds?

I dl'ed the Altiverb demo bout year and a half ago and the damn beeping
made it impossible to demo. Was a waste of time.





David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

david

Will, does the demo work normally or does it still beep every couple of
seconds?

I dl'ed the Altiverb demo bout year and a half ago and the damn beeping
made it impossible to demo. Was a waste of time.

Well the beeping is what makes it a "demo", isn't it? But there are
freeware PC convolution reverbs that work fine, and other convolution reverbs
for the Mac now as well.

But you really have to actually listen to the user recorded impulse WAV
files posted on some of the affectionado websites. Some of them are crapping
out the inputs of the digital reverbs or micpres when they are "sampling the
impulse response" of a device or space, jeez it *is* a gunshot, ya can't just
watch the meters!

Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

WillStG wrote:

Well the beeping is what makes it a "demo", isn't it?

For people with very short attention spans. g

--
ha

WillStG wrote:


But you really have to actually listen to the user recorded impulse WAV
files posted on some of the affectionado websites. Some of them are crapping
out the inputs of the digital reverbs or micpres when they are "sampling the
impulse response" of a device or space, jeez it *is* a gunshot, ya can't just
watch the meters!

It may sound like a gunshot but that does not mean that is
how it was measured. Take a swept sin recording, convolve
it with a matched filter and out pops the impulse response
which should sound a lot like a gunshot.

Using true impulsive sources is almost never done for the
reason you mention, overload, but mainly because you get
_much_ better noise immunity using swept sin.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

Bob Cain
It may sound like a gunshot but that does not mean that is
how it was measured. Take a swept sin recording, convolve
it with a matched filter and out pops the impulse response
which should sound a lot like a gunshot.

If I recall correctly Altiverb *recommends* using a starter pistol. And not
only are some of the impulse wav files distorted I have listened to, some of
them still have the gunshot at the top rathered than trimmed off as Altiverb
says one should. At least I think that's Altiverb, it's been a while.


Will Miho
NY Music & TV Audio Guy
Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits