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#1
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EMT plate vs. EMT plate impulse?
A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no
digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse? In other words, should I go buy a 140 if I like that thick plate sound (which I believe do)? I have never heard a plate in person so I have nothing to compare with. There's a stereo tube one (with remote) for sale at this end of the country: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=3278&item= 3755947193&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW -- Jay Levitt | Wellesley, MA | Hi! Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going? http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket? |
#2
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Jay Levitt wrote:
A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse? I played with the Sony sampling reverb, and the plate sample on it sounded an awful lot like a real plate. Enough that I'd want to hear it side by side with the real thing before I make any actual decision. But, it costs more than the real thing. In other words, should I go buy a 140 if I like that thick plate sound (which I believe do)? I have never heard a plate in person so I have nothing to compare with. There's a stereo tube one (with remote) for sale at this end of the country: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=3278&item= 3755947193&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW So ask the man if you can go in and play with it before bidding. If you like it, get it. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
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Jay Levitt wrote in message ...
A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse? In other words, should I go buy a 140 if I like that thick plate sound (which I believe do)? I have never heard a plate in person so I have nothing to compare with. There's a stereo tube one (with remote) for sale at this end of the country: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...ory=3278&item= 3755947193&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW good question, especially with the quality of convolution verbs these days. i guess you could approach this with a question as to the general quality of sampled verbs -- ie, have you successfully "sampled" a room or system? i haven't done so myself, so i don't have firsthand knowledge at how good the convolution process is. hmmmm. i wonder if some systems sample better than others. seems to me that sampling a digital reverb would be pretty simple, whereas a real room could be tricky. i have a modified emt140 (jim cunningham's high output pickups in 162amp (stereo solid state)) -- and it's a beast -- sonics and maintenance, oh and size. i don't know if someone has sampled on for altiverb, eg, but i don't think you'd be disappointed if you pick one up. cheers, chris deckard saint louis mo |
#4
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Jay Levitt wrote: A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse? Not sure if there are any of signifigance in a real plate but, as it appears that you understand, if there are then they won't be reproduced by convolution. If there are, I doubt that they would add anything particularly pleasant, though. IR measurement can easily discard non-linear effects so that the portion that is exactly reproducable by convolution might well sound better than the real thing. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
#5
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Jay Levitt
A few years ago, the general consensus in this group was "There's no digital reverb that comes close to a real plate." Is this still the case today with convolution reverbs commonplace? How close do the impulses come to matching the real thing in terms of diffusion? Are there any non-linearities that can't be captured by an impulse? In other words, should I go buy a 140 if I like that thick plate sound (which I believe do)? I have never heard a plate in person so I have nothing to compare with. There's a stereo tube one (with remote) for sale at this end of the country: You should be aware moving a Plate reverb takes a few guys, and you will likely pop a few springs doing it. Certainly if you try to tune it you'll pop a few springs as well, it's part of the process typically to tighten until a spring breaks (noting the tension) and then tightening the replacement to just before where the previous spring broke. But Convolution Reverbs are *really really good*, see for yourself. If you have a Mac g4 you can download the Altiverb Demo from Audioease.com and the impulse response of Wendy Carlos (of Switched On Bach fame)'s EMT Plate that she has offered up for posterity. If you have a PC there are free Convolution Reverbs available online, google the SIR software. Download a few rooms from Audioease as well and give it a listen. They are very real sounding, although the quality of the room sampling obviously is a major issue (I mention this because there is a glut of free sampled rooms available online at places like noisevault.com for free, but many of them sound like crap because the recordists didn't do a good job.) Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#6
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#8
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Jay Levitt
I guess I don't trust my own ears enough yet to compare it out of context of my own studio; I don't have the experience. OTOH I'm afraid to lose an opportunity; I get the impression that stereo-tube-remote 140s in recent service are not incredibly common, and this one's only a few hours away, which makes shipping cheaper. The $1800 reserve seemed a bit high to me - but that might just reflect my ahem, "thrifty" approach to gear aquisition. Maybe a plate can pay for itself in how it atracts clients in your market - I dunno. But a good convolution reverb program can be used with impulses from everything from a plate to a Lexicon 480 - Quantec reverb to a Manley Voxbox with the cool passive inductors. A bit more flexible and easier on the wallet. On the third hand, they say, and have reconfirmed, that their plate is not more than 300 pounds, and probably less - two skinny guys moved it easily. But various web sites claim a 140 is supposed to be 425 pounds (danalexander) or even 600 pounds (Universal Audio), so now I'm even more confused - are there different models/sizes of 140? This one is about 4 x 8 feet. I think you still need 4 guys to move a plate properly even if it's a light weight plate. You are supposed to put a couple of pipes through the slots in the box with 2 guys front and 2 guys back, and carry it that way. If the broker is unaware of this fact or just glossing it over, I wonder if he can be trusted to properly pack the plate for shipping. Have you read what Dan Alexander advises about properly packing and shipping a plate reverb? He says he killed a bunch of plates before he figured out how to do it without totally shearing off all the clips and destroying them in transit. http://www.danalexanderaudio.com/tips.html#Packing If the broker was selling the plate for closer to $1000 than $2000 and I was close enough to move it myself, it would sound more tempting to me personally. I think I have the space in my garage for it next to the chipper... g Will Miho NY Music & TV Audio Guy Off the Morning Show! & sleepin' In... / Fox News "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
#9
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Jay Levitt wrote:
I guess I don't trust my own ears enough yet to compare it out of context of my own studio; I don't have the experience. OTOH I'm afraid to lose an opportunity; I get the impression that stereo-tube-remote 140s in recent service are not incredibly common, and this one's only a few hours away, which makes shipping cheaper. On the third hand, they say, and have reconfirmed, that their plate is not more than 300 pounds, and probably less - two skinny guys moved it easily. But various web sites claim a 140 is supposed to be 425 pounds (danalexander) or even 600 pounds (Universal Audio), so now I'm even more confused - are there different models/sizes of 140? This one is about 4 x 8 feet. On the fourth hand, does a plate need to be in any particular kind of space? I have a climate-controlled garage; will that do, or do the acoustics of the room affect the plate sound? I know the chamber is supposed to be somewhat soundproof, but I also seem to recall that studios used to hang plates in iso rooms. One suggestion someone had was to rent some time in a local studio with a 140, bring a cowbell or two, and compare the reverbed cowbell with an impulse taken from the same plate. I'm a big fan of a real plate. We have a solid state 140 stereo with Jim Cunningham pickups. It's a really beautiful sound and our experience is that we use our digital verbs very little compared to the 140. A little touch of plate here and there really glues a mix together in way that I find very pleasing. Generally speaking, if you bought this one and it's in decent condition, I think you will be very happy you did. I've not used the impulse reverbs so I couldn't compare, but have heard very positive comments about those also. As for moving, I always understood that they weigh about 400 + lbs. When moving it, you can remove the sides which cuts the weight down a bit. There are plates on each ends with holes in them. If you stick a steel rod (like a mic stand) across each end inside the lifting plates two people can move one fairly easily, but 4 would be better. Make sure you get the moving instructions first to prep it properly, otherwise you'll be sorry. Both Dan A. and Jim C. have those instructions. Ours in mounted on top of some neoprene rubber pads and we have no problems with physical vibrations. You can hang them from chains off of ceiling rafters also. That was a common method. It will require tuning after you install it. This is a difficult and frustrating job. You will break a few clips doing so, but that is normal. It will also be a lot of work running the audio and remote control wires out to your garage, so budget time and $ for that. I think your climate controlled garage will be a fine location except when a car is going in and out of course. It does nead to be about 8 inches away from the wall, but that's no big deal. It's like owning a old sports car. High performance has it's price. There will be lot's or hard work involved but I think it is well worth it. There is lots of info from previous posts over the years. Do a google search and read up. Best of luck... -- -- John Noll Retromedia Sound Studios Red Bank, NJ visit the new website: http://www.retromedia.net |
#10
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In article , WillStG
wrote: If you have a Mac g4 you can download the Altiverb Demo from Audioease.com and the impulse response of Wendy Carlos (of Switched On Bach fame)'s EMT Plate that she has offered up for posterity. Will, does the demo work normally or does it still beep every couple of seconds? I dl'ed the Altiverb demo bout year and a half ago and the damn beeping made it impossible to demo. Was a waste of time. David Correia Celebration Sound Warren, Rhode Island www.CelebrationSound.com |
#11
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#12
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WillStG wrote:
Well the beeping is what makes it a "demo", isn't it? For people with very short attention spans. g -- ha |
#13
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WillStG wrote: But you really have to actually listen to the user recorded impulse WAV files posted on some of the affectionado websites. Some of them are crapping out the inputs of the digital reverbs or micpres when they are "sampling the impulse response" of a device or space, jeez it *is* a gunshot, ya can't just watch the meters! It may sound like a gunshot but that does not mean that is how it was measured. Take a swept sin recording, convolve it with a matched filter and out pops the impulse response which should sound a lot like a gunshot. Using true impulsive sources is almost never done for the reason you mention, overload, but mainly because you get _much_ better noise immunity using swept sin. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
#14
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