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Tynan AgviŠr Tynan AgviŠr is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some persons who
are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about manufacturing for me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all acoustic music, chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir, acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan
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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?



"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote:

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some persons who
are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about manufacturing for me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all acoustic music, chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir, acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).


Well .... I'm a pro-audio designer with extensive knowledge of mixers and I
originally learnt on tubes.

I would first ask you why you want to use tubes since it will restrict the
possible technical performance seriously compared to modern solid-state
circuitry. I presume you like the tube colouration ?

Such a thing would be VERY expensive to custom design as a one-off though.

Who's MOSCODE btw ?

Graham

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Phil Allison Phil Allison is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?


"Eeysore"

Who's MOSCODE btw ?



** Read this:


http://www.meta-gizmo.com/Tri/nyal/moscode.html




...... Phil


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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?



Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore"

Who's MOSCODE btw ?


** Read this:

http://www.meta-gizmo.com/Tri/nyal/moscode.html


Thanks Phil.

Looks like it could be an interesting read.

Graham

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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?


"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote in message
. 3.70...
: I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some persons who
: are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about manufacturing for
me
: a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all acoustic music,
chamber
: music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir, acapella, etc. there a
: lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something very special. I
: have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do it, but then
: never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
: appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings of my label
: (audiophile type label beginning late this year).
:
: Tackar så mycket,
:
: -Tynan

you'll have to be more specific about what your requirements are,
here's an example of a production tube/hybrid mixer:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...cles/tlam1.htm
12-channel version £3500; 8-channel version £2579;
ADAT card £500. Prices include VAT.

Rudy



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Phil Allison Phil Allison is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?


"Rudy"

you'll have to be more specific about what your requirements are,
here's an example of a production tube/hybrid mixer:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...cles/tlam1.htm




** No way is that thing a tube mixer.

It's just another desk full of cheap op-amp ICs.

The token use of half an 'X7 in each channel is a JOKE.




....... Phil




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Tynan AgviŠr Tynan AgviŠr is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Eeyore wrote in
:


I would first ask you why you want to use tubes since it will restrict
the possible technical performance seriously compared to modern
solid-state circuitry. I presume you like the tube colouration ?

Sir, thank you so much for your reply. My answer is pretty simple.
I like the sound. It is nothing less and nothing more than that. My
favorite recordings are from the 40s and 50s(RCA Living Stereo, Anything
Bill Porter engineered, Hank Sr, Peggy Lee, Doc Watson albums from that
time period).Some Solid State equipment may be vastly superior on paper,
but it will never, ever be able to do what a good Tube piece will.



Such a thing would be VERY expensive to custom design as a one-off
though.

Who's MOSCODE btw ?


Well, my life is only a one-off, so I can deal with that. I like taking
risks and never, ever forgo doing anything that i am otherwise capable of
doing..
as for who is moscode..
http://www.moscode.com/home.htm The reason I called them was because I
had heard that david Chesky uses a custom mixer from them..I also contacted
Tim Paravincini based on a reccomendation from my good friend Kavi
Alexander, but as of today at 830 am est I havent heard from him either.
(something that makes me very ****ed off is when someone simply does not
make contact to say hey, go to hell, or **** off ..but says nothing!..that
is worse than slapping me in my face..anyway..way off subject)

I also love VACRAC preamps very much..consider them to be the ultimate mic
amps. Thanks again Sir

-Tynan
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Tynan AgviŠr Tynan AgviŠr is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

"Rudy" wrote in
:





you'll have to be more specific about what your requirements are,
here's an example of a production tube/hybrid mixer:



6 in, 2 out. Mic Level. Pan. Gain. faders on 2 buss. Headphone amp with
volume control seperate from main faders. XLR ins. XLR outs. no EQ or
high/low cut or any of that stuff. oh yes..phantom power on/off toggle.

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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

"Phil Allison" wrote in news:5uanc6F1grs00U1
@mid.individual.net:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan0...cles/tlam1.htm


Yes Mr. Allison, there is not any shortage of pieces like that which
capitalize on the tube/vintage mania and the ignorance of the
consumer...but I want something that is well designed , good sounding, and
will last a lifetime...with no digital options anywhere on it. There are
some good pieces of equipment with ICs(DAV electronics is run by a
gentleman who is very knowledgeable, and their amps sound really nice), but
ive always wanted a nice custom built mixer without any of that extra
stuff..

Tynan
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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Tynan AgviŠr wrote

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with
some persons who are working with tube audio
equipment(making it) about manufacturing for me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all
acoustic music, chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir,
acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something
very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do
it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I
would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings
of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).


If you like the sound of old mixers, then I suggest you
acquire an old mixer.

You may choose to have an old mixer made new, in which case
you need someone who can copy whichever old circuit you like
and build it to your quality expectations. You wouldn't need
a designer.

But perhaps there are some aspects of old mixers that you
don't like? Then you need someone who knows the difference
between baby and bathwater.

OTOH, if you want something "very special", then perhaps you
need a guru?

Where are you?

How much money would be just too much for something very
special?

Ian




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Rudy Rudy is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?


"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote in message
. 3.70...
: "Rudy" wrote in
: :
:
:
:
:
:
: you'll have to be more specific about what your requirements are,
: here's an example of a production tube/hybrid mixer:
:
:
:
: 6 in, 2 out. Mic Level. Pan. Gain. faders on 2 buss. Headphone amp with
: volume control seperate from main faders. XLR ins. XLR outs. no EQ or
: high/low cut or any of that stuff. oh yes..phantom power on/off toggle.
:
ok, that's something ;-)
I'll translate that into more specific terms to see if i get you right:

a channel with an XLR balanced input, individually switchable phantom
supply,
all gain coming from tubes (requiring an input transformer) just 2 buss
wires
(no send/return/inserts), a 100 mm production quality fader, no overload
indicator;

two bus summation circuits and master level output faders,
a ?tube powered? headphone stereo amp with separate level pot

something like this ?

Rudy

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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?



Ian Iveson wrote:

Tynan AgviŠr wrote

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with
some persons who are working with tube audio
equipment(making it) about manufacturing for me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all
acoustic music, chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir,
acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something
very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do
it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I
would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings
of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).


If you like the sound of old mixers, then I suggest you
acquire an old mixer.


A mixer of the vintage he's interested in will now be
ultra-exceptionally rare (they were exceptionally rare to begin with !)
and likely already in the hands of a well-heeled rock star or the like.
Indeed I know of a couple of former EMI desks (one tubed and one
germanium transistor) in such ownership.


You may choose to have an old mixer made new, in which case
you need someone who can copy whichever old circuit you like
and build it to your quality expectations. You wouldn't need
a designer.


The designer would be able to adapt that circuit to use modern (and
reliable) constructional techniques, without which the project might
never get off the ground.

Graham

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Rudy wrote:

ok, that's something ;-)
I'll translate that into more specific terms to see if i get you right:

a channel with an XLR balanced input, individually switchable phantom
supply,
all gain coming from tubes (requiring an input transformer) just 2 buss
wires
(no send/return/inserts), a 100 mm production quality fader, no overload
indicator;

two bus summation circuits and master level output faders,
a ?tube powered? headphone stereo amp with separate level pot

something like this ?


An 'overload' indicator would be trivial to add. Since it's not in the signal
path it could be solid state (nice and simple) and still fit the
requirements.

How about metering ?

Graham


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robert casey robert casey is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?


I like the sound. It is nothing less and nothing more than that. My
favorite recordings are from the 40s and 50s(RCA Living Stereo, Anything
Bill Porter engineered, Hank Sr, Peggy Lee, Doc Watson albums from that
time period).Some Solid State equipment may be vastly superior on paper,
but it will never, ever be able to do what a good Tube piece will.



Maybe a good tube buffer downstream from a good SS mixer will do what
you want?
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robert casey wrote:

I like the sound. It is nothing less and nothing more than that. My
favorite recordings are from the 40s and 50s(RCA Living Stereo, Anything
Bill Porter engineered, Hank Sr, Peggy Lee, Doc Watson albums from that
time period).Some Solid State equipment may be vastly superior on paper,
but it will never, ever be able to do what a good Tube piece will.


Maybe a good tube buffer downstream from a good SS mixer will do what
you want?


Whoooossshhhhhhhh

Incidentally, surely a *good* tube buffer should be transparent so it couldn't
have any effect in that scenario ?

Graham




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Tynan AgviŠr Tynan AgviŠr is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Eeyore wrote in
:



Rudy wrote:

ok, that's something ;-)
I'll translate that into more specific terms to see if i get you
right:

a channel with an XLR balanced input, individually switchable phantom
supply,
all gain coming from tubes (requiring an input transformer) just 2
buss wires
(no send/return/inserts), a 100 mm production quality fader, no
overload indicator; How about metering ?


Graham



Yes Sir(s) exactly. Nice input transformers ( I Like the Lundahl LL7903,
which has an amorphous core and is capable of +16 dBU input..perfect
combination for me of a clean but euphonic sound)..yes, that is exactly
right above! Metering..nice analog meters, nothing complicated..for me I
like everything I use to go by the KISS principle(which I learned in my
previous life in Military Special Operations..Keep it simple, stupid!)

you gentlemen summed up what I was thinking perfectly! so who can tackle
this for me?? I will be very grateful. I know it wont be very cheap, but
ive found that in audio, good things arent normally cheap.



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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?


"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote in message
. 3.70...
: Eeyore wrote in
: :
:
:
:
: Rudy wrote:
:
: ok, that's something ;-)
: I'll translate that into more specific terms to see if i get you
: right:
:
: a channel with an XLR balanced input, individually switchable phantom
: supply,
: all gain coming from tubes (requiring an input transformer) just 2
: buss wires
: (no send/return/inserts), a 100 mm production quality fader, no
: overload indicator; How about metering ?
:
: Graham
:
:
:
: Yes Sir(s) exactly. Nice input transformers ( I Like the Lundahl LL7903,
: which has an amorphous core and is capable of +16 dBU input..perfect
: combination for me of a clean but euphonic sound)..yes, that is exactly
: right above! Metering..nice analog meters, nothing complicated..for me I
: like everything I use to go by the KISS principle(which I learned in my
: previous life in Military Special Operations..Keep it simple, stupid!)
:
: you gentlemen summed up what I was thinking perfectly! so who can tackle
: this for me?? I will be very grateful. I know it wont be very cheap, but
: ive found that in audio, good things arent normally cheap.
:
hmm, ok, the raw bill of materials for such a mixer,including the cost of
a commissioned flightcase and set of frontplates, 6 for the channels,
1 master for the output/headphone/metering section,
Penny & Giles or ALPS faders and comparable quality panpots,
input gain pots , circuit boards, knobs, supply, tubes, ventilation system
will run up to 2000 EUR, i'd guestimate.

what Graham means by a-one off being a problem, in addition to
this BoM, there's the design, prototype, measure, evaluate,
design finalize & actual building hours that have to be made up
for in cost by 1 product.

Rudy

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Ian Thompson-Bell Ian Thompson-Bell is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Tynan AgviŠr wrote:
Eeyore wrote in
:


Rudy wrote:

ok, that's something ;-)
I'll translate that into more specific terms to see if i get you
right:

a channel with an XLR balanced input, individually switchable phantom
supply,
all gain coming from tubes (requiring an input transformer) just 2
buss wires
(no send/return/inserts), a 100 mm production quality fader, no
overload indicator; How about metering ?

Graham



Yes Sir(s) exactly. Nice input transformers ( I Like the Lundahl LL7903,
which has an amorphous core and is capable of +16 dBU input..perfect
combination for me of a clean but euphonic sound)..yes, that is exactly
right above! Metering..nice analog meters, nothing complicated..for me I
like everything I use to go by the KISS principle(which I learned in my
previous life in Military Special Operations..Keep it simple, stupid!)

you gentlemen summed up what I was thinking perfectly! so who can tackle
this for me?? I will be very grateful. I know it wont be very cheap, but
ive found that in audio, good things arent normally cheap.



When I worked at Neve in the 70s the basic method of costing a custom
console was to multiply the component cost by 2.5. There were other
wrinkles but that was the technique in principle. I just did a quick
back of the envelope calculation and I reckon you need to budget at
least 10,000 pounds sterling for your 6 into 2 all tube mixer.

Cheers

Ian
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robert casey robert casey is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Eeyore wrote:


robert casey wrote:


I like the sound. It is nothing less and nothing more than that. My
favorite recordings are from the 40s and 50s(RCA Living Stereo, Anything
Bill Porter engineered, Hank Sr, Peggy Lee, Doc Watson albums from that
time period).Some Solid State equipment may be vastly superior on paper,
but it will never, ever be able to do what a good Tube piece will.


Maybe a good tube buffer downstream from a good SS mixer will do what
you want?



Whoooossshhhhhhhh

Incidentally, surely a *good* tube buffer should be transparent so it couldn't
have any effect in that scenario ?

Graham


Well, then there's no point in specifying the use of tubes in the first
place then. In which case, this newsgroup has no valid reason to
exist... Anyway.
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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote:

Eeyore wrote
Rudy wrote:

ok, that's something ;-)
I'll translate that into more specific terms to see if i get you
right:

a channel with an XLR balanced input, individually switchable phantom
supply,
all gain coming from tubes (requiring an input transformer) just 2
buss wires
(no send/return/inserts), a 100 mm production quality fader, no
overload indicator; How about metering ?



Yes Sir(s) exactly. Nice input transformers ( I Like the Lundahl LL7903,


Lundahl make superb transformers !


which has an amorphous core and is capable of +16 dBU input..perfect
combination for me of a clean but euphonic sound)..yes, that is exactly
right above! Metering..nice analog meters, nothing complicated..for me


But analog VU or PPM ?


I like everything I use to go by the KISS principle(which I learned in my
previous life in Military Special Operations..Keep it simple, stupid!)

you gentlemen summed up what I was thinking perfectly! so who can tackle
this for me?? I will be very grateful. I know it wont be very cheap, but
ive found that in audio, good things arent normally cheap.


I'm tempted to consider the idea. I'd be looking around for other possible
sales too. I'll talk to a few people about it.

NO EQ at all ? Really ? I'd have thought that a HPF at least might be
useful.

Graham




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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?



Rudy wrote:

hmm, ok, the raw bill of materials for such a mixer,including the cost of
a commissioned flightcase and set of frontplates, 6 for the channels,
1 master for the output/headphone/metering section,
Penny & Giles or ALPS faders and comparable quality panpots,
input gain pots , circuit boards, knobs, supply, tubes, ventilation system
will run up to 2000 EUR, i'd guestimate.


In that region I'd expect.


what Graham means by a-one off being a problem, in addition to
this BoM, there's the design, prototype, measure, evaluate,
design finalize & actual building hours that have to be made up
for in cost by 1 product.


Exactly so which is why I'd be looking for other possible sales.

Graham

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Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

When I worked at Neve in the 70s the basic method of costing a custom
console was to multiply the component cost by 2.5.


That's why they went bust the first ? time.

It was SIX times when I was there.


There were other
wrinkles but that was the technique in principle. I just did a quick
back of the envelope calculation and I reckon you need to budget at
least 10,000 pounds sterling for your 6 into 2 all tube mixer.


Could easily be that for a true one-off.

Graham

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robert casey wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
robert casey wrote:

I like the sound. It is nothing less and nothing more than that. My
favorite recordings are from the 40s and 50s(RCA Living Stereo, Anything
Bill Porter engineered, Hank Sr, Peggy Lee, Doc Watson albums from that
time period).Some Solid State equipment may be vastly superior on paper,
but it will never, ever be able to do what a good Tube piece will.

Maybe a good tube buffer downstream from a good SS mixer will do what
you want?



Whoooossshhhhhhhh

Incidentally, surely a *good* tube buffer should be transparent so it couldn't
have any effect in that scenario ?

Graham


Well, then there's no point in specifying the use of tubes in the first
place then. In which case, this newsgroup has no valid reason to
exist... Anyway.


You've got it wrong.

Tube circuits exist today because of their ADDED distortion/colouration, not because
of an absence of it. That's what makes them sound 'attractive'.

If you want a clinically accurate circuit, solid state is the way to go. National
Semiconductor for one are making op-amps now with THD well over 100dB below signal
level.

Graham


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Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?



"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote:

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some persons who
are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about manufacturing for me
a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record all acoustic music, chamber
music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world music, choir, acapella, etc. there a
lot of mass produced choices, but I would like something very special. I
have spoken to MOSCODE months ago, and he said he would do it, but then
never answered my last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
appreciate it, and will send you all the first recordings of my label
(audiophile type label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan


I'm happy to design something, but being paid with a cd doesn't pay my
bills or put food on the table.

Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.


The trouble is that an original one off design has to be optimised
during and after its
construction and de-bugged; the final amp IS a prototype, and someone
has to do all that
or else you get less than what you expected.

If all you want is to pick people's brains without paying them,
and you have no skills to finalise the work yourself,
and you won't pay the price of having something
properly custom made with a guranteed outcome, then maybe its no wonder
ppl
might end up not answering your emails.

Patrick Turner.
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Tynan AgviŠr Tynan AgviŠr is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Patrick Turner wrote in
:



"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote:

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some
persons who are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about
manufacturing for me a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record
all acoustic music, chamber music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world
music, choir, acapella, etc. there a lot of mass produced choices,
but I would like something very special. I have spoken to MOSCODE
months ago, and he said he would do it, but then never answered my
last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much appreciate it, and
will send you all the first recordings of my label (audiophile type
label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan


I'm happy to design something, but being paid with a cd doesn't pay my
bills or put food on the table.


As tempted as I am to not respond to that statement...I will anyway.
I dont recall asking anyone to build something for a CD..That would be
quite silly, wouldnt it? That is a crazy thing to think. I was simply
offering CDs as a token of my thanks to anyone who helped point me in the
right directions as far as names to contact. Wow.


Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.


The trouble is that an original one off design has to be optimised
during and after its
construction and de-bugged; the final amp IS a prototype, and someone
has to do all that
or else you get less than what you expected.

If all you want is to pick people's brains without paying them,
and you have no skills to finalise the work yourself,
and you won't pay the price of having something
properly custom made with a guranteed outcome, then maybe its no
wonder ppl
might end up not answering your emails.


Are you serious??You are assuming a hell of a lot, and are completely off
the mark...I was simply asking for someone steer me in the right
direction as far as names go for me to PAY them to build a mixer. If I
wanted to pick peoples brains only, I would do it elsewhere. Some of yall
need to get laid. Really. or perhaps a tricyclic antidepressant, maybe
benzodiazapenes?
So far I have gotten some really good help,(Graham, the NL guy and a
couple others), email from a dickhead who said he had a DJ mixer with a
couple of technics tables, and this post above from Captain
TactfullAssumption)
So let me restate here.....I want a mixer for my recording business.. I
was outlining what I wanted with the intent of perhaps garnering interest
from someone that was capable of building/designing one(I dont have many
skills as far as electronics design..so what I do( I read this in a book
once, about paying people for services that range from Laundry to
designing things for you to Car Washing, etc..Novel Idea I think) I dont
want advise on how to build one so that I can steal your wonderful
secrets and go to my garage and capitalize on your vision and market it
to the masses who yearn for your secrets..I dont need to sell equipment.
I make a good salary. . I dont want to build anything for ****s sake. I
wish I had the skill to, but that was not my lot in life. I am a singer
and make my money Singing and doing voice overs. I want to pay someone to
build for me. That is legal is it not?? End of story. It is nothing more
than that and nothing less..So if anyone can help, please shoot me an
email or reply here. If you cant help and want to spout vitriol, feel
free, I wont respond to that nonsense . I do really appreciate the folks
that are contributing to the thread in a positive way.





  #26   Report Post  
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Tynan AgviŠr Tynan AgviŠr is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

If you want a clinically accurate circuit, solid state is the way to
go. National Semiconductor for one are making op-amps now with THD
well over 100dB below signal level.

Graham



Sir, I dont want a clinically accurate circuit. I dont want solid state and
op-amps(though I do have some very nice amps that Use ICs that were made by
Mr. Mick Hinton(DAV Electronics)..I use them a lot and am quite fond of
them....but I want what I stated when I first posted..(which Rudy has
translated for me(thanks Rudy, you said what I was trying to say in fewer
and better words,)

and no, to re-iterate..I am not trying to pick brains so I can steal
secrets. I am trying to find an expert to work with me to take my input to
design/build a nice piece for my business...or to steer me to someone who
can. That is all.. no ulterior motives, and I am sure as hell not trying to
get any freebies. I hope the conspiracy theorists will remove the tinfoil
hats and contribute something helpful. I need help, not bull****.

(Thanks Graham, Rudy, Eeyore and Bear)


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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?



"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote:

If you want a clinically accurate circuit, solid state is the way to
go. National Semiconductor for one are making op-amps now with THD
well over 100dB below signal level.



Sir, I dont want a clinically accurate circuit.


I rather imagined you didn't. My comment above was addressing the ideas of a
poster who apparently imagines that tube circuitry is more technically accurate
than modern top-notch solid state.

FWIW, I just checked the specs of National Semiconductor's LME49710 series and
THD is -130dB !

I'm well aware that the 'nice' distortion that tubes offer is what causes many
people to be drawn to them and is why they are still used in music production.


Graham

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Ian Thompson-Bell Ian Thompson-Bell is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Eeyore wrote:

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

When I worked at Neve in the 70s the basic method of costing a custom
console was to multiply the component cost by 2.5.


That's why they went bust the first ? time.


No, that was because Rupert was a brilliant audio designer but a poor
business man.

It was SIX times when I was there.


Did they still include DO and test time?

Ian

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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?



Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
Ian Thompson-Bell wrote:

When I worked at Neve in the 70s the basic method of costing a custom
console was to multiply the component cost by 2.5.


That's why they went bust the first ? time.


No, that was because Rupert was a brilliant audio designer


I'd say he was good rather than brilliant actually. Many Neve circuits are
nothing special at all but the product is well engineered overall.


but a poor business man.


Which led to the insane 2.5 times figure.


It was SIX times when I was there.


Did they still include DO and test time?


The costings were very detailed actually and had estimates for all
departments including my own (Ops / Custom).

The 6 times was what it typically worked out to be.

Graham

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Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?



"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote in
:



"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote:

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check with some
persons who are working with tube audio equipment(making it) about
manufacturing for me a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based mixer. I record
all acoustic music, chamber music, folk, bluegrass, celtic, world
music, choir, acapella, etc. there a lot of mass produced choices,
but I would like something very special. I have spoken to MOSCODE
months ago, and he said he would do it, but then never answered my
last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much appreciate it, and
will send you all the first recordings of my label (audiophile type
label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan


I'm happy to design something, but being paid with a cd doesn't pay my
bills or put food on the table.


As tempted as I am to not respond to that statement...I will anyway.
I dont recall asking anyone to build something for a CD..That would be
quite silly, wouldnt it? That is a crazy thing to think. I was simply
offering CDs as a token of my thanks to anyone who helped point me in the
right directions as far as names to contact. Wow.

Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.


The trouble is that an original one off design has to be optimised
during and after its
construction and de-bugged; the final amp IS a prototype, and someone
has to do all that
or else you get less than what you expected.

If all you want is to pick people's brains without paying them,
and you have no skills to finalise the work yourself,
and you won't pay the price of having something
properly custom made with a guranteed outcome, then maybe its no
wonder ppl
might end up not answering your emails.


Are you serious??


Just testing.

You are assuming a hell of a lot, and are completely off
the mark...I was simply asking for someone steer me in the right
direction as far as names go for me to PAY them to build a mixer. If I
wanted to pick peoples brains only, I would do it elsewhere. Some of yall
need to get laid. Really. or perhaps a tricyclic antidepressant, maybe
benzodiazapenes?


Getting laid is terribly expensive these days,
I'm extremely choosy about who I root, and I don't do drugs.

But designing something you can build and presenting it in a nice
schematic form
takes considerable work, and you hadn't offered any payment just a cd
"sweetener",
which is fine, but you won't get too much help from a busy expert unless
you
offer more.

As a busy expert, I get fed up with people wanting some contraption
design or constructed
and they are willing to pay peanuts only.

I share nearly all my wisdom as I proceed with custom projects such as
the 845 amps
for which I am paid. This sharing is fine for me . But if you want
something
I am not making, or have never made, then I want to get paid somehow.






So far I have gotten some really good help,(Graham, the NL guy and a
couple others), email from a dickhead who said he had a DJ mixer with a
couple of technics tables, and this post above from Captain
TactfullAssumption)
So let me restate here.....I want a mixer for my recording business.. I
was outlining what I wanted with the intent of perhaps garnering interest
from someone that was capable of building/designing one(I dont have many
skills as far as electronics design..so what I do( I read this in a book
once, about paying people for services that range from Laundry to
designing things for you to Car Washing, etc..Novel Idea I think) I dont
want advise on how to build one so that I can steal your wonderful
secrets and go to my garage and capitalize on your vision and market it
to the masses who yearn for your secrets..


I built a website with totally free info. But people don't copy
what I do because its all too difficult to achieve. Commercial people
ripping off things from my website invariably dumb down the ideas.

I am not a well known designer like Peter Walker was, or Tim
DeParavicini, Andy Grove or many others who
have established themselves over 20 years prior to the Net in magazines
like Sterophile
after their efforts in well funded and successful audio manufacturing
business ventures
requiring heavy capital investments.

I do not give a **** what ppl do with ideas stolen from me.
They ain't stolen. I have given it free.

He he, what they do with the secret info is their business.



I dont need to sell equipment.
I make a good salary. . I dont want to build anything for ****s sake. I
wish I had the skill to, but that was not my lot in life. I am a singer
and make my money Singing and doing voice overs. I want to pay someone to
build for me. That is legal is it not?? End of story.


!!!

It is nothing more
than that and nothing less..So if anyone can help, please shoot me an
email or reply here. If you cant help and want to spout vitriol, feel
free, I wont respond to that nonsense . I do really appreciate the folks
that are contributing to the thread in a positive way.


All I am saying is that experts normally want some sort of
"professional" fee,
ie, more than what you'd pay a cleaner.
And you have not indicated what you are prepared to pay.

Doing such design work takes considerable time.

If you really want something done, and done right,
and in a good time frame, make a deal nobody can refuse.

I'm extremely busy for the next 6 months can't help you
right now.

Does not Manley Labs have something you might purchase off the shelf?

Patrick Turner.


  #31   Report Post  
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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Posts: 960
Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Ian Thompson-Bell wrote

When I worked at Neve in the 70s the basic method of
costing a custom console was to multiply the component
cost by 2.5. There were other wrinkles but that was the
technique in principle. I just did a quick back of the
envelope calculation and I reckon you need to budget at
least 10,000 pounds sterling for your 6 into 2 all tube
mixer.


2-3 times is common for large scale manufacturing, but not
for a one-off. Anyone making custom products with commodity
functional equivalents must depend on enough hype and
stupidity to double the price.

A genuine, unique and different product must be good enough
to support a mark-up of maybe 4 times or more.

Ian


  #32   Report Post  
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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Posts: 960
Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Eeyore wrote

You may choose to have an old mixer made new, in which
case
you need someone who can copy whichever old circuit you
like
and build it to your quality expectations. You wouldn't
need
a designer.


The designer would be able to adapt that circuit to use
modern (and
reliable) constructional techniques, without which the
project might
never get off the ground.


Well that depends on what is meant by "design".

If an engineer were to take an old design and adapt it,
using modern passives and peripheral circuits, and build it
to current state-of-the-art spec., would that be design?

Anyway, what I was trying to do was draw attention to the
difference between the engineering task, and the voicing,
for want of a better word.

There aren't many people I would trust with both. Add the
need to appreciate the all-valve studio context the mixer
will find itself in, and there can't be many people in the
world who would be fully qualified for the job.

Patrick's point about the need for commissioning underlines
this issue. However, that requirement for close and
continuing relations with the customer could be obviated if
the product were a functional replica of some classic
design. That would take care of the issue of voicing in
advance.

In my own language, I would say that authenticity is the
safest route to legitimacy.

Unless, for the customer, *any* sound resulting from a valve
circuit would be equally legitimate. In that case, even you
might be able to do the job, although you would be the
second-last person in the world I would trust with such a
task.

A mixer of the vintage he's interested in will now be
ultra-exceptionally rare (they were exceptionally rare to
begin with !)
and likely already in the hands of a well-heeled rock star
or the like.
Indeed I know of a couple of former EMI desks (one tubed
and one
germanium transistor) in such ownership.


If you can copy the circuit without messing it up, you may
have a head start. I still wouldn't trust you with it, but
don't let that dampen your ardour, or sway the customer, who
I am sure can survey your history of postings and judge for
himself.

I would probably trust Rudy, BTW, and a couple of others
round here least given to self-aggrandising delusions.

Ian


  #33   Report Post  
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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Posts: 960
Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Oi!

Patrick has made a legitimate point, even though he don't
read too good.

Don't be swayed by charm. It is possible that an offensive
and socially inept lout could be the best man for the job,
although possibly not this particular one.

Top-posting in outrage.

Ian

"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote in message
.70...
Patrick Turner wrote in
:



"Tynan AgviŠr" wrote:

I am a recording engineer, and I would like to check
with some
persons who are working with tube audio equipment(making
it) about
manufacturing for me a custom 8 in, 2 out tube based
mixer. I record
all acoustic music, chamber music, folk, bluegrass,
celtic, world
music, choir, acapella, etc. there a lot of mass
produced choices,
but I would like something very special. I have spoken
to MOSCODE
months ago, and he said he would do it, but then never
answered my
last emails. If anyone can help me, I would much
appreciate it, and
will send you all the first recordings of my label
(audiophile type
label beginning late this year).

Tackar så mycket,

-Tynan


I'm happy to design something, but being paid with a cd
doesn't pay my
bills or put food on the table.


As tempted as I am to not respond to that statement...I
will anyway.
I dont recall asking anyone to build something for a
CD..That would be
quite silly, wouldnt it? That is a crazy thing to think. I
was simply
offering CDs as a token of my thanks to anyone who helped
point me in the
right directions as far as names to contact. Wow.


Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very
complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and
whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all
floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.


The trouble is that an original one off design has to be
optimised
during and after its
construction and de-bugged; the final amp IS a prototype,
and someone
has to do all that
or else you get less than what you expected.

If all you want is to pick people's brains without paying
them,
and you have no skills to finalise the work yourself,
and you won't pay the price of having something
properly custom made with a guranteed outcome, then maybe
its no
wonder ppl
might end up not answering your emails.


Are you serious??You are assuming a hell of a lot, and are
completely off
the mark...I was simply asking for someone steer me in the
right
direction as far as names go for me to PAY them to build a
mixer. If I
wanted to pick peoples brains only, I would do it
elsewhere. Some of yall
need to get laid. Really. or perhaps a tricyclic
antidepressant, maybe
benzodiazapenes?
So far I have gotten some really good help,(Graham, the NL
guy and a
couple others), email from a dickhead who said he had a DJ
mixer with a
couple of technics tables, and this post above from
Captain
TactfullAssumption)
So let me restate here.....I want a mixer for my recording
business.. I
was outlining what I wanted with the intent of perhaps
garnering interest
from someone that was capable of building/designing one(I
dont have many
skills as far as electronics design..so what I do( I read
this in a book
once, about paying people for services that range from
Laundry to
designing things for you to Car Washing, etc..Novel Idea I
think) I dont
want advise on how to build one so that I can steal your
wonderful
secrets and go to my garage and capitalize on your vision
and market it
to the masses who yearn for your secrets..I dont need to
sell equipment.
I make a good salary. . I dont want to build anything for
****s sake. I
wish I had the skill to, but that was not my lot in life.
I am a singer
and make my money Singing and doing voice overs. I want to
pay someone to
build for me. That is legal is it not?? End of story. It
is nothing more
than that and nothing less..So if anyone can help, please
shoot me an
email or reply here. If you cant help and want to spout
vitriol, feel
free, I wont respond to that nonsense . I do really
appreciate the folks
that are contributing to the thread in a positive way.





  #34   Report Post  
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Ian Thompson-Bell Ian Thompson-Bell is offline
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Posts: 493
Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Ian Iveson wrote:
Ian Thompson-Bell wrote

When I worked at Neve in the 70s the basic method of
costing a custom console was to multiply the component
cost by 2.5. There were other wrinkles but that was the
technique in principle. I just did a quick back of the
envelope calculation and I reckon you need to budget at
least 10,000 pounds sterling for your 6 into 2 all tube
mixer.


2-3 times is common for large scale manufacturing, but not
for a one-off. Anyone making custom products with commodity
functional equivalents must depend on enough hype and
stupidity to double the price.


Agreed. At Neve there were standard systems in place for the physical
framework design/build, silk screening, key cap engraving, with standard
screened modules, mix bus extrusion and power and signal routing. Which
is why I used the phrase *at least*. I just wanted the OP to have a ball
park figure to contemplate.

Cheers

Ian
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John Byrns John Byrns is offline
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Posts: 1,441
Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:

Using tubes only is all you need, and its not a very complicated
matter for design unless you want lots of bells and whistles such as
tube based
12 band graphic eq to each input channel, and all floating balanced
inputs and balanced outputs.


Tubes easily did the floating balanced inputs and outputs thing by
making use of transformers. 12 band graphic equalizers are child's play
with tubes. A much more serious challenge would be to design a tube
based parametric equalizer. If anyone has a reasonable idea for how to
approach the latter please let me know as I would like to pursue it.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/


  #36   Report Post  
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John Byrns John Byrns is offline
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Posts: 1,441
Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

In article ,
"Ian Iveson" wrote:

Unless, for the customer, *any* sound resulting from a valve
circuit would be equally legitimate. In that case, even you
might be able to do the job, although you would be the
second-last person in the world I would trust with such a
task.


Who would be the last person in the world you would trust with such a
task?


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/
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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Posts: 8,474
Default Which tube expert can do custom works?



Ian Iveson wrote:

Eeyore wrote

Indeed I know of a couple of former EMI desks (one tubed
and one germanium transistor) in such ownership.


If you can copy the circuit without messing it up, you may
have a head start. I still wouldn't trust you with it, but
don't let that dampen your ardour, or sway the customer, who
I am sure can survey your history of postings and judge for
himself.

I would probably trust Rudy, BTW, and a couple of others
round here least given to self-aggrandising delusions.


Oh right. You'd dismiss the only pro-audio design engineer posting here.

Your rampant amateurism knows no bounds.

Graham



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Tynan AgviŠr Tynan AgviŠr is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

All I am saying is that experts normally want some sort of
"professional" fee,
ie, more than what you'd pay a cleaner.
And you have not indicated what you are prepared to pay.

Doing such design work takes considerable time.

If you really want something done, and done right,
and in a good time frame, make a deal nobody can refuse.

I'm extremely busy for the next 6 months can't help you
right now.

Does not Manley Labs have something you might purchase off the shelf?

Patrick Turner.


Ok, sure I expect that most people require a fee..but I generally dont
talk about money on public newsgroups. That is pretty tacky in my
opinion. On top of that..I dont know what a project like that would go
for because nothing like that exists! Ive seen a lot of talk about money,
but normally when I get audio work done(I get a lot of microphone
modifications, for example), I tell the two techs that I deal with mainly
what I am looking for, they do research, give me cost scenarios, and
that's that. Why would I come on here, like an idiot, say "hey, I am a
dumbass numbnuts who doesnt know anything about nothing", "ive got XXXX.
dollars here, and I want someone to build me a mixer." "Who can do it?",
...Nothing about that seems smart. Ive never done business that way, and
dont intend on ever doing it that way. I had hoped someone would contact
me(and they have) , do a little brain storming with those expert brains
of theirs, get back to me with a figure and some scenario of what they
could do, yadda yadda. And lets work it out.. as for the things you
said.. *ive* never known any expert do do business in that manner. I
dont want to approach this like an auction or a contract to build a
prison. I want someone to talk to me one on one and work with me. Ive had
4 guys offer very helpful information(helping me narrow down what I want,
and believe me I appreciate it very very much), but outside of those guys
(thanks be to them again), i hear a lot of talk about money, but no talk
about what someone could offer. do people really think that way?? "Give
me money and we can talk!"..if so that is bull****!..Hell, how do I know
you aren't some Schizo in Dorothea Dix or Joe Blow from
piscopo..hell...or that you know your 3rd point of contact from a hole in
the ground?
Obviously you cant help, Mr. Turner.. thats cool..but I did want to
answer your questions.


As for manley..Well, I dont need anything as large as what they offer,
and they dont do anything smaller...they are pretty much on the verge of
"mass production" , and I want something that is mine(and the builders)
alone.

Ill keep hoping, maybe theyll come along.




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Tynan AgviŠr Tynan AgviŠr is offline
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Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

" Don't be swayed by charm. It is possible that an offensive
and socially inept lout could be the best man for the job,
although possibly not this particular one.



I dont think they are charming(yet). They simply gave me and my question
respect and were helpful. They did not clutter up the thread with negative
nonsense. These days, if someone is simply respectful, hell , that is
enough to make them stand out..a lot of folks dont have a "catch stupid,
disrespectful, and unnecessary statments" filters between their brains and
their mouths/fingers. I admire the ones who do.

Well, the ability to show respect and not act like an ass counts for a lot
with me. If my dumb carcass (I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks
surrounded by white trash and oxygen thieves) can learn to be civil long
enough to get through the army infantry school, sfas, and ranger school,
and manage to keep my ass glued on long enough to get through Iraq and an
honorable discharge..anyone can. Anyone! I always ask myself "Is what I am
saying helpful or pertinent?" "am I being respectful or not?" Basic human
respect. People that cant pull themselves together and be decent long
enough to do a business transaction dont deserve breathe..much less to make
money off others.




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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Posts: 960
Default Which tube expert can do custom works?

Eeyore blethered:

I would probably trust Rudy, BTW, and a couple of others
round here least given to self-aggrandising delusions.


Oh right. You'd dismiss the only pro-audio design engineer
posting here.

Your rampant amateurism knows no bounds.


Indeed not. I'm proud to be an amateur, and happy to know no
bounds. Being rampant is icing on the cake.

Unlike your failed products, bounded firstly by failure in
the market, and then by the ruin of your employer.

You have trumpeted your ignorance here for long enough for
most to know the truth. Let's see who jumps to your defence.

Ian


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