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mike
 
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Default Tube Damper????

Happy Thanks Giving to All
Do tube dampers really work???
Thanks
Mike M
  #2   Report Post  
JamesG
 
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No. It is audiophool nonsense.
"mike" wrote in message
ink.net...
Happy Thanks Giving to All
Do tube dampers really work???
Thanks
Mike M



  #3   Report Post  
Brian McAllister
 
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On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:03:48 GMT, mike
wrote:

Happy Thanks Giving to All
Do tube dampers really work???
Thanks
Mike M


Yes, tube TVs would be lost without them.


Brian McAllister

Sarasota, Florida

email bkm at oldtech dot net
  #4   Report Post  
Adam Stouffer
 
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JamesG wrote:
No. It is audiophool nonsense.


Unless the tube happens to be very microphonic then it could help. I
remember seeing some metal "top hat" tube dampeners in the back of an
old GA issue. Looked like anyone with a lathe could crank them out in
minutes. Price, $225.


Adam
  #5   Report Post  
mike
 
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Thank you to all for the info.
I know Audio Research uses them on all their products.
just curious
Thanks again
Mike M


  #7   Report Post  
Mike Gilmour
 
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"mike" wrote in message
.net...
Thank you to all for the info.
I know Audio Research uses them on all their products.
just curious
Thanks again
Mike M



Try it for yourself. Wind 20 turns of teflon tape directly around a tube
and listen. Bill Beard used to do that I believe on signal valves.
Personally I'd prefer to select less microphonic signal valves. The metal
vaned coolers however do IMO extend power valve life considerably and if you
ground the coolers on signal valves it acts a bit like shielding. You don't
see screening cans around much nowadays. The very slight hum on my amps
went when I grounded the signal valve coolers.

I'm waiting for the flak ......... ;-)

Mike G





  #8   Report Post  
Patrick Turner
 
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Mike Gilmour wrote:

"mike" wrote in message
.net...
Thank you to all for the info.
I know Audio Research uses them on all their products.
just curious
Thanks again
Mike M


Try it for yourself. Wind 20 turns of teflon tape directly around a tube
and listen. Bill Beard used to do that I believe on signal valves.
Personally I'd prefer to select less microphonic signal valves. The metal
vaned coolers however do IMO extend power valve life considerably and if you
ground the coolers on signal valves it acts a bit like shielding. You don't
see screening cans around much nowadays. The very slight hum on my amps
went when I grounded the signal valve coolers.

I'm waiting for the flak ......... ;-)


I don't see a need for tube dampers.
Pick non microphonic tubes, and all will be well.

Besides, some micro tubes would be still micro
with dampers, since the elements sway around if the mica discs are loose.

They used to place tubes in aircraft in tight fitting metal surrounds in an
effort to keep
them cool, with an air flow past the metal.
The planes flew so fast the air flow was hot, so they had to use refrigeration
to keep them cool.
That made the planes heavy, since gridges are that way,
and so some bright spark said let's use solid state.

The fridges are still parked in an old hangar in Arizona; I suggest
all cool dudes drop by and get a few of these US airforce units to keep the
tubes cool.

The only place I use those spring loaded metal jackets is on phono amps,
and they help reduce hum, although I don't have much, since I use a j-fet
in cascode with a 6EJ7 for the first stage of a phono amp.

Patrick Turner.



Mike G


  #9   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
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On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 04:48:43 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:



Mike Gilmour wrote:

"mike" wrote in message
.net...
Thank you to all for the info.
I know Audio Research uses them on all their products.
just curious
Thanks again
Mike M


Try it for yourself. Wind 20 turns of teflon tape directly around a tube
and listen. Bill Beard used to do that I believe on signal valves.
Personally I'd prefer to select less microphonic signal valves. The metal
vaned coolers however do IMO extend power valve life considerably and if you
ground the coolers on signal valves it acts a bit like shielding. You don't
see screening cans around much nowadays. The very slight hum on my amps
went when I grounded the signal valve coolers.

I'm waiting for the flak ......... ;-)


I don't see a need for tube dampers.
Pick non microphonic tubes, and all will be well.

Besides, some micro tubes would be still micro
with dampers, since the elements sway around if the mica discs are loose.

They used to place tubes in aircraft in tight fitting metal surrounds in an
effort to keep
them cool, with an air flow past the metal.
The planes flew so fast the air flow was hot, so they had to use refrigeration
to keep them cool.
That made the planes heavy, since gridges are that way,
and so some bright spark said let's use solid state.


Case closed.....................

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #10   Report Post  
Mike Gilmour
 
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 04:48:43 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:



Mike Gilmour wrote:

"mike" wrote in message
.net...
Thank you to all for the info.
I know Audio Research uses them on all their products.
just curious
Thanks again
Mike M

Try it for yourself. Wind 20 turns of teflon tape directly around a
tube
and listen. Bill Beard used to do that I believe on signal valves.
Personally I'd prefer to select less microphonic signal valves. The
metal
vaned coolers however do IMO extend power valve life considerably and if
you
ground the coolers on signal valves it acts a bit like shielding. You
don't
see screening cans around much nowadays. The very slight hum on my
amps
went when I grounded the signal valve coolers.

I'm waiting for the flak ......... ;-)


I don't see a need for tube dampers.
Pick non microphonic tubes, and all will be well.

Besides, some micro tubes would be still micro
with dampers, since the elements sway around if the mica discs are loose.

They used to place tubes in aircraft in tight fitting metal surrounds in
an
effort to keep
them cool, with an air flow past the metal.
The planes flew so fast the air flow was hot, so they had to use
refrigeration
to keep them cool.
That made the planes heavy, since gridges are that way,
and so some bright spark said let's use solid state.


Case closed.....................

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


If aircraft had kept tubes maybe their sound systems wouldn't suck ;-)




  #11   Report Post  
Robert Casey
 
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Brian McAllister wrote:

On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 22:03:48 GMT, mike
wrote:


Happy Thanks Giving to All
Do tube dampers really work???
Thanks
Mike M



Yes, tube TVs would be lost without them.

They make for good rectifiers as well. And have
good heater-cathode voltage ratings.
  #12   Report Post  
Robert Casey
 
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The metal
vaned coolers however do IMO extend power valve life considerably and if you
ground the coolers on signal valves it acts a bit like shielding. You don't
see screening cans around much nowadays. The very slight hum on my amps
went when I grounded the signal valve coolers.

I'm waiting for the flak ......... ;-)


No flak here. It makes sense that what you have is a heat
sink and electrostatic shield. Mil spec tube shields were
black (like a heat sink) and had finger stock that touched the
envelope. That should damp the tube as well as conduct heat
away.
  #13   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
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On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:19:05 -0000, "Mike Gilmour"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 04:48:43 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:


They used to place tubes in aircraft in tight fitting metal surrounds in an
effort to keep them cool, with an air flow past the metal.
The planes flew so fast the air flow was hot, so they had to use
refrigeration to keep them cool.
That made the planes heavy, since gridges are that way,
and so some bright spark said let's use solid state.


Case closed.....................


If aircraft had kept tubes maybe their sound systems wouldn't suck ;-)


The sound system in a MiG 25 is pretty bad, and it's all tubed! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #14   Report Post  
Mike Gilmour
 
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:19:05 -0000, "Mike Gilmour"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 04:48:43 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:


They used to place tubes in aircraft in tight fitting metal surrounds in
an
effort to keep them cool, with an air flow past the metal.
The planes flew so fast the air flow was hot, so they had to use
refrigeration to keep them cool.
That made the planes heavy, since gridges are that way,
and so some bright spark said let's use solid state.

Case closed.....................


If aircraft had kept tubes maybe their sound systems wouldn't suck ;-)


The sound system in a MiG 25 is pretty bad, and it's all tubed! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering



Yea but remember the MiG 25 tubes temperature control is by vodka fumes :-)
plus you get to enjoy the sheer dynamics of EMP! In the mean time all ss
equipment in the area is a smokin' wreck.......Cool...


  #15   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
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On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 13:53:55 -0000, "Mike Gilmour"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 20:19:05 -0000, "Mike Gilmour"
wrote:

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 27 Nov 2004 04:48:43 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:


They used to place tubes in aircraft in tight fitting metal surrounds in
an
effort to keep them cool, with an air flow past the metal.
The planes flew so fast the air flow was hot, so they had to use
refrigeration to keep them cool.
That made the planes heavy, since gridges are that way,
and so some bright spark said let's use solid state.

Case closed.....................


If aircraft had kept tubes maybe their sound systems wouldn't suck ;-)


The sound system in a MiG 25 is pretty bad, and it's all tubed! :-)


Yea but remember the MiG 25 tubes temperature control is by vodka fumes :-)
plus you get to enjoy the sheer dynamics of EMP! In the mean time all ss
equipment in the area is a smokin' wreck.......Cool...


Actually, they got that wrong, too. Modern rad-hardened SS gear is
also proof against EMP. It just needs an engineer to be told the
threat, and he can come up with a defence.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


  #16   Report Post  
Ian Iveson
 
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote

The sound system in a MiG 25 is pretty bad, and it's all tubed!


MiG sound systems are exceptionally good, but the listening space
lets them down. No carpet, no soft furniture, thin walls and noisy
neighbours.

cheers, Ian


  #17   Report Post  
Shiva
 
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"JamesG" wrote in message
...
No. It is audiophool nonsense.
"mike" wrote in message
ink.net...
Happy Thanks Giving to All
Do tube dampers really work???
Thanks
Mike M



Well, as hip as it is to believe that, it's not.
All tubes are inherently microphonic - ping a first-stage toob with your
finger. Hear something? You bet. The spacing between the elements (as in
grid to cathode, as a biggie) makes each tube a microphone by design. No
matter how well engineered the support structures are.
It was a standard practice to use isolation-mount (usually soft rubber
doughnuts / grommets) sockets on, at least, the high-gain stages. And
covering them with shields, which acted as more than shields - they added
*mass* to the suspended assembly.
Yeah, good engineering practices will minimize the effects of
microphonics. Unfortunately, many new designers forget that those practices
extend to mechanical construction. Isolating the tubes from vibration is
one of them. So. In many cases dampers work (oh, let's say a guitah' combo
amp, as an extreme). Encasing your phono preamp in a 500 pound block of
cement will also work. I'm not saying to run out & buy the overpriced
"audiophool" crap, or discount the fact that some dampers increase the
toob's internal temp. & cause more harm than good, but a tube damper is not
*entirely* snakeoil.
-dim


  #18   Report Post  
Mike Gilmour
 
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Default


"Shiva" wrote in message
news:jAHqd.3526$%R1.1962@trndny03...

"JamesG" wrote in message
...
No. It is audiophool nonsense.
"mike" wrote in message
ink.net...
Happy Thanks Giving to All
Do tube dampers really work???
Thanks
Mike M



Well, as hip as it is to believe that, it's not.
All tubes are inherently microphonic - ping a first-stage toob with your
finger. Hear something? You bet. The spacing between the elements (as
in
grid to cathode, as a biggie) makes each tube a microphone by design. No
matter how well engineered the support structures are.
It was a standard practice to use isolation-mount (usually soft rubber
doughnuts / grommets) sockets on, at least, the high-gain stages. And
covering them with shields, which acted as more than shields - they added
*mass* to the suspended assembly.
Yeah, good engineering practices will minimize the effects of
microphonics. Unfortunately, many new designers forget that those
practices
extend to mechanical construction. Isolating the tubes from vibration is
one of them. So. In many cases dampers work (oh, let's say a guitah'
combo
amp, as an extreme). Encasing your phono preamp in a 500 pound block of
cement will also work. I'm not saying to run out & buy the overpriced
"audiophool" crap, or discount the fact that some dampers increase the
toob's internal temp. & cause more harm than good, but a tube damper is
not
*entirely* snakeoil.
-dim



The wisest approach is surely to select a non microphonic tube in the first
place for the first stage (& all stages infact).
One of my tests was through selecting non microphonic tubes and then playing
speakers from another system very loud next to a tubed power amp and
recording the output of that amplifier to DAT. What did I get on playback -
a very low level hiss.. thats all.
Too much is made of tube microphonics in audio...just buy your tubes from a
decent supplier who actually tests them. If you are supplied with a
microphonic tube then simply send it back.
I use coolers that can also damp a microphonic tube a bit... but why not
just change the tube?

Mike


  #19   Report Post  
Ian Iveson
 
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"Shiva" wrote
...
In many cases dampers work (oh, let's say a guitah' combo
amp, as an extreme). Encasing your phono preamp in a 500 pound
block of
cement will also work. I'm not saying to run out & buy the
overpriced
"audiophool" crap, or discount the fact that some dampers
increase the
toob's internal temp. & cause more harm than good, but a tube
damper is not
*entirely* snakeoil.


Depends on the context. If the problem is chassis-born vibration, a
damper on the bottle will probably make matters worse. If air-born,
it will make it better. So you want a block of cement for the
chassis first, then a damper for the toob.

I wonder how much effort is made in valve design to get the
mechanical poles and zeros in the right places?

cheers, Ian


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