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#1
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
Moved to a new venue with a Midas M32R.
Recorded the show to USB stick. WAV's have finite size limits, I am used to dealing with more than 1 sequential 4Gb WAV's recorded on my laptop, and stitching them together in post with no lost data. The Midas M32R I used this weekend produced multiple 2Gb WAV's to USB stick, but lost data in the transitions. Maybe half a second or so each transistion, dunno yet. Clearly this is not fit for purpose, you can't get that data back. Anyone have any experience of this? Cheers, Gareth. |
#2
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
On 25/01/2018 9:30 AM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
Moved to a new venue with a Midas M32R. Recorded the show to USB stick. WAV's have finite size limits, I am used to dealing with more than 1 sequential 4Gb WAV's recorded on my laptop, and stitching them together in post with no lost data. The Midas M32R I used this weekend produced multiple 2Gb WAV's to USB stick, but lost data in the transitions. Maybe half a second or so each transistion, dunno yet. Clearly this is not fit for purpose, you can't get that data back. Certainly unsatisfactory. A fault of that particular mixer, or a 'feature' of the model ?!!! Would hope not ... Out of interest are these single or multi-channel WAVs, at what SR and bits ? geoff |
#3
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
On 24/01/2018 20:30, Gareth Magennis wrote:
Moved to a new venue with a Midas M32R. Recorded the show to USB stick. WAV's have finite size limits, I am used to dealing with more than 1 sequential 4Gb WAV's recorded on my laptop, and stitching them together in post with no lost data. The Midas M32R I used this weekend produced multiple 2Gb WAV's to USB stick, but lost data in the transitions. Maybe half a second or so each transistion, dunno yet. Clearly this is not fit for purpose, you can't get that data back. What is the firmware version of your mixer. The version currently available for download on the website is 3.08. It may be worth making sure you have the latest version, or if you do, have a chat with the maker's tech support. Maybe I'm missing something, but neither the user manual or the service manual mention being able to record direct to a USB stick? As I read them, they assume that the mixer will be networked to a computer. A 2 GB file size may be a relic of a FAT16 formatted output, and taking half a second to finalise a file is a sign that the computer is too busy to do what it's designed to do. It may be stored internally as FAT16, and then written to a FAT32 or ExFAT USB stick. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#4
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
On 25/01/2018 1:02 PM, John Williamson wrote:
On 24/01/2018 20:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: Moved to a new venue with a Midas M32R. Recorded the show to USB stick. WAV's have finite size limits, I am used to dealing with more than 1 sequential 4Gb WAV's recorded on my laptop, and stitching them together in post with no lost data. The Midas M32R I used this weekend produced multiple 2Gb WAV's to USB stick, but lost data in the transitions. Maybe half a second or so each transistion, dunno yet. Clearly this is not fit for purpose, you can't get that data back. What is the firmware version of your mixer. The version currently available for download on the website is 3.08. It may be worth making sure you have the latest version, or if you do, have a chat with the maker's tech support. Maybe I'm missing something, but neither the user manual or the service manual mention being able to record direct to a USB stick? As I read them, they assume that the mixer will be networked to a computer. A 2 GB file size may be a relic of a FAT16 formatted output, and taking half a second to finalise a file is a sign that the computer is too busy to do what it's designed to do. It may be stored internally as FAT16, and then written to a FAT32 or ExFAT USB stick. 4GB is the absolute limit for a WAV file, and for some reason it is 2GB on some devices. The 4GB limit is due to the way some info is held in the file header. Sony developed a W64 (Wave64) format that got over that limitation. There seems no suggestion anywhere in the M32 manual that there is a 'roll-over' function to accommodate recordings that need to be over their 2GB limit. A bit of an oversight IMO, as is the rather lame output spec of 16/48k ! considered adequate for most purposes I guess. Alternative is to output to a laptop with software that can record to W64 (or alternative format), or does have a seamless WAV roll-over function. Dunno if a Zoom will do that (?).... Good luck. geoff |
#5
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
On 1/24/2018 5:40 PM, Geoff wrote:
There seems no suggestion anywhere in the M32 manual that there is a 'roll-over' function to accommodate recordings that need to be over their 2GB limit. The usual way that recording devices deal with this is simply to continue the recording in a new file. The buffer enough so that no samples are lost, and you can paste multiple files together seamlessly. My Korg MR-1000 works like that, as does my Mackie HDR24/96, and even the program Audacity, though that doesn't make WAV files natively, but does record and save in small chunks. Still, 4 GB is a lot of audio at reasonable sample rates. Take a break! -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#6
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
On 25/01/2018 4:53 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 1/24/2018 5:40 PM, Geoff wrote: There seems no suggestion anywhere in the M32 manual that there is a 'roll-over' function to accommodate recordings that need to be over their 2GB limit. The usual way that recording devices deal with this is simply to continue the recording in a new file. The buffer enough so that no samples are lost, and you can paste multiple files together seamlessly. My Korg MR-1000 works like that, as does my Mackie HDR24/96, and even the program Audacity, though that doesn't make WAV files natively, but does record and save in small chunks. Still, 4 GB is a lot of audio at reasonable sample rates. Take a break! But 2GB is just over half an hour at 16/48k/S . But it is late and my arithmetic might be wrong . And the problem seems to be that the Midas does *not* do the seemless thing. geoff |
#7
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 5:58:01 AM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 25/01/2018 4:53 PM, Mike Rivers wrote: On 1/24/2018 5:40 PM, Geoff wrote: There seems no suggestion anywhere in the M32 manual that there is a 'roll-over' function to accommodate recordings that need to be over their 2GB limit. The usual way that recording devices deal with this is simply to continue the recording in a new file. The buffer enough so that no samples are lost, and you can paste multiple files together seamlessly. My Korg MR-1000 works like that, as does my Mackie HDR24/96, and even the program Audacity, though that doesn't make WAV files natively, but does record and save in small chunks. Still, 4 GB is a lot of audio at reasonable sample rates. Take a break! But 2GB is just over half an hour at 16/48k/S . But it is late and my arithmetic might be wrong . And the problem seems to be that the Midas does *not* do the seemless thing. geoff My recorder running Rockbox has the 4 GB limit also (as they all do) but it also has the option to set the break point to occur at a time limit instead of a GB file size limit. I set it for 1 hour exactly. Maybe that desk has the option to make the break point at a time limit instead of a GB limit and __maybe__ it will work better that way? mark |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
On 1/25/2018 2:57 AM, geoff wrote:
But 2GB is just over half an hour at 16/48k/S . But it is late and my arithmetic might be wrong . I remember 10.5 MB/minute of stereo at 16-bit 44.1 kHz from DAT days. Then I revised my rule-of thumb to 1 GB/hour for 24-bit 44.1 kHz. A stereo 16/48 recording of 3 hours and a couple of minutes will fit in a 2 GB hole. The on-line calculator (there's one for everything, it seems) is he https://www.sounddevices.com/tech-notes/audio-record -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio" - John Watkinson Drop by http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com now and then |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
geoff wrote:
On 25/01/2018 4:53 PM, Mike Rivers wrote: On 1/24/2018 5:40 PM, Geoff wrote: There seems no suggestion anywhere in the M32 manual that there is a 'roll-over' function to accommodate recordings that need to be over their 2GB limit. The usual way that recording devices deal with this is simply to continue the recording in a new file. The buffer enough so that no samples are lost, and you can paste multiple files together seamlessly. My Korg MR-1000 works like that, as does my Mackie HDR24/96, and even the program Audacity, though that doesn't make WAV files natively, but does record and save in small chunks. Still, 4 GB is a lot of audio at reasonable sample rates. Take a break! But 2GB is just over half an hour at 16/48k/S . So I got 2*(10^9)/(96000) = 20833.33333 seconds, or 5.78 hours. But it is late and my arithmetic might be wrong .* And the problem seems to be that the Midas does *not* do the seemless thing. geoff -- Les Cargill |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
Geoff wrote:
On 25/01/2018 1:02 PM, John Williamson wrote: On 24/01/2018 20:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: Moved to a new venue with a Midas M32R. Recorded the show to USB stick. WAV's have finite size limits, I am used to dealing with more than 1 sequential 4Gb WAV's recorded on my laptop, and stitching them together in post with no lost data. The Midas M32R I used this weekend produced multiple 2Gb WAV's to USB stick, but lost data in the transitions. Maybe half a second or so each transistion, dunno yet. Clearly this is not fit for purpose, you can't get that data back. What is the firmware version of your mixer. The version currently available for download on the website is 3.08. It may be worth making sure you have the latest version, or if you do, have a chat with the maker's tech support. Maybe I'm missing something, but neither the user manual or the service manual mention being able to record direct to a USB stick? As I read them, they assume that the mixer will be networked to a computer. A 2 GB file size may be a relic of a FAT16 formatted output, and taking half a second to finalise a file is a sign that the computer is too busy to do what it's designed to do. It may be stored internally as FAT16, and then written to a FAT32 or ExFAT USB stick. 4GB is the absolute limit for a WAV file, and for some reason it is 2GB on some devices. The reason is a combination of FAT32 and the quantity 0x7FFFFFFF. The 4GB limit is due to the way some info is held in the file header. Sony developed a W64 (Wave64) format that got over that limitation. There seems no suggestion anywhere in the M32 manual that there is a 'roll-over' function to accommodate recordings that need to be over their 2GB limit. A bit of an oversight IMO, as is the rather lame output spec of 16/48k ! considered adequate for most purposes I guess. Alternative is to output to a laptop with software that can record to W64 (or alternative format), or does have a seamless WAV roll-over function. Dunno if a Zoom will do that (?).... It'd be interesting to give this a roll: https://www.amazon.com/HiFiBerry-DIG.../dp/B0776C9399 Good luck. geoff -- Les Cargill |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
On 24-01-2018 21:30, Gareth Magennis wrote:
Moved to a new venue with a Midas M32R. Recorded the show to USB stick. WAV's have finite size limits, I am used to dealing with more than 1 sequential 4Gb WAV's recorded on my laptop, and stitching them together in post with no lost data. The Midas M32R I used this weekend produced multiple 2Gb WAV's to USB stick, but lost data in the transitions. Maybe half a second or so each transistion, dunno yet. There is a very purist version of the .wav format that cautiously only allows 2 gigabyte files. It is also very old. Not allowing 4 gigabyte wave files (less a wee bit for caution) has been "legacy" for all of this millenium. Clearly this is not fit for purpose, you can't get that data back. Twice incompetent in fact. It is a known pestilence with some video recorders, all those I own, that they end each segment to card, mostly also 2 gigabytes, sometimes 4 gigabytes, can't remember which does which, with an empty data block in the audio file. So a parallel audio recording is already for that reason unavoidable. Strangely there is no issue of any kind with getting the video contigous when files are assembled, so perhaps they just do not even bother trying to solve the problem. Anyone have any experience of this? The real issue behind the file splitting is the use of FAT32 on the SD (& similar) cards because it is a minimum cpu overhead filesystem. Either the recorders need more brains or - perhaps better, as this is also a latency issue - an entirely new filesystem for cards & similar is long overdue. Gareth. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#12
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
Peter Larsen wrote:
On 24-01-2018 21:30, Gareth Magennis wrote: snip The real issue behind the file splitting is the use of FAT32 on the SD (& similar) cards because it is a minimum cpu overhead filesystem. Either the recorders need more brains or - perhaps better, as this is also a latency issue - an entirely new filesystem for cards & similar is long overdue. So I put up a link for a TOSLINK shield for a RasPi - with that and the stuff you need to do to add a SATA harddisk to a Pi, you'd get the ability to use ext4 filesystem, which should be close to bulletproof and provide file length to the limit of the hard drive. The only hard part should be "how to turn it off?" i don't see this packaged and productized anywhere - it'd be DIY. Gareth. ** Kind regards ** Peter Larsen -- Les Cargill |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
In article ,
"Gareth Magennis" wrote: Moved to a new venue with a Midas M32R. Recorded the show to USB stick. WAV's have finite size limits, I am used to dealing with more than 1 sequential 4Gb WAV's recorded on my laptop, and stitching them together in post with no lost data. The Midas M32R I used this weekend produced multiple 2Gb WAV's to USB stick, but lost data in the transitions. Maybe half a second or so each transistion, dunno yet. Clearly this is not fit for purpose, you can't get that data back. Anyone have any experience of this? Gareth- You can get around the 2GB limit by using ExFAT format on your USB stick. But that does not change the 2GB format used by your recording process. My Zoom H4n audio recorder automatically starts a new track when the limit is reached. I have not had any problem splicing these tracks together using Audacity. Someone suggested that your problem is related to your laptop's handling of the transition. If you can get your laptop to NOT chop the recording into segments, then using ExFAT format may eliminate the problem. Fred |
#14
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Midas M32 USB stick recording glitch
On 28-01-2018 19:23, Fred McKenzie wrote:
In article , "Gareth Magennis" wrote: Moved to a new venue with a Midas M32R. Recorded the show to USB stick. Someone suggested that your problem is related to your laptop's handling of the transition. If you can get your laptop to NOT chop the recording into segments, then using ExFAT format may eliminate the problem. He used a professional audio mixer with save to usb option and he used it for the sensible "no operator overhead because the operator is doing live sound" method of just logging the entire evening. Considering how fast it is to clip unwanted parts out of a file afterwards that is the proper way to do it. As for that it should have been tested by the manufacturer, yes, then there had not been an issue. Also the manufacturer could have used the proper version of the .wav format. And they could have put linux in the desk so that it could have written a file system that allowed the use of broadcast wave files. As for the operator who found out: this is a reminder to all of us to verify via a full scale test whenever it is important. Sometimes doing that highlights something that should have worked, but does not in the real world. This obvious is one of those times. Has the OP gotten any comments from the manufacturer on the complaint letter assumed sent? - even just getting to the proper audio fileformat version that allows 4 gigabyte files would help and that could be a simple field patch of the desk. (always do such patching with the desk on a UPS! and with ample time before next show, don't just do it in the intermission at far fields festival on the end of a 2 mile 2 X 0.75 square millimeter extension cable!) Fred Kind regards Peter Larsen |
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