A Audio and hi-fi forum. AudioBanter.com

Go Back   Home » AudioBanter.com forum » rec.audio » Pro Audio
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Anything to say on Speakons



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old July 21st 20, 01:37 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
Mike Rivers[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,128
Default Anything to say on Speakons

On 7/21/2020 6:50 AM, Phil Allison wrote:


> Note: The internal symmetry of a co-ax cable is the secret to its excellent mag field rejection. Equal and opposite currents inject into the core and shield from a nearby AC mag field - so complete self cancellation.


> The ONLY real advantage of a 2 wire "balanced" mic line is when used for carrying phantom power to a mic or device that needs it ( eg a DI unit).


With the assumption that the input is differential, what you're losing
is common mode rejection. You're relying on the construction of the coax
to be all you need to keep EMI from getting to the destination through
the cable. A differential input fed from an accurately balanced source
is like "belt and suspenders."

A lot of the "unbalanced hums" netlore is a function of improper
grounding and shielding in the source and destination devices. Much of
this has been sorted out since the AES devoted a whole issue of the
Journal in 1975 to ways to build stuff right so you don't get EMI picked
up by the cable shield to the guts of the destination device via a
current path through what's supposed to be "ground."


--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
Ads
  #12  
Old July 21st 20, 10:44 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
Les Cargill[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default Anything to say on Speakons

Tatonik wrote:
>
> I'm planning on terminating some speaker cables with Speakon connectors.
> *I've plugged in Speakons a few times, but never built any cables with
> them.* In addition to the Neutrik brand, I noticed Amphenol has their
> own version (slightly more expensive).* Is there any reason to pick one
> over the other (or any other brand I don't know about), in regard to
> quality or ease of wiring or general use?
>
> I'm surprised this style of connector hasn't caught on in high-end home
> audio.* The basic design seems so much safer and more secure than
> anything else I've encountered.
>


Speakons all but preclude daisy-chaining unless it's provided for on the
panel ( or you make a box ). That's the only real downside and it might
be that big of one.

--
Les Cargill
  #13  
Old July 21st 20, 11:58 PM posted to rec.audio.pro
Phil Allison[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 483
Default Anything to say on Speakons

Mike Rivers wrote:

=================

> Phil Allison wrote:
>
>
> > Note: The internal symmetry of a co-ax cable is the secret to its excellent mag field rejection. Equal and opposite currents inject into the core and shield from a nearby AC mag field - so complete self cancellation.

>
> > The ONLY real advantage of a 2 wire "balanced" mic line is when used for carrying phantom power to a mic or device that needs it ( eg a DI unit).

>
>
> With the assumption that the input is differential,



** The CONTEXT here is microphones - you snipped it out of sight.

The source is *floating* so no ground loops.


> what you're losing is common mode rejection.



** Good shielding prevents such coupling with a *microphone*.


> You're relying on the construction of the coax
> to be all you need to keep EMI from getting to the destination through
> the cable.


** Which actually works BETTER than a twisted pair - which does not have such good symmetry cos of having descrete loops.


> A differential input fed from an accurately balanced source
> is like "belt and suspenders."



** Picks up more hum than a good co-ax.

Try it out just like I suggested, sometime.


> A lot of the "unbalanced hums" netlore is a function of improper
> grounding


** One word - *microphones*.

Unique case.


...... Phil
  #14  
Old July 22nd 20, 12:43 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
Mike Rivers[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,128
Default Anything to say on Speakons

On 7/21/2020 6:58 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

> ** One word -*microphones*.


I'm a generalist. I know what works for all balanced connections but I
don't know what works for all microphones.

On a theoretical level, even backed up by measurements, your unique
setup might be better than what's been convention for a long time. You
can build it, but you probably couldn't sell it.

And on the "balanced" scene, things are getting better. Higher and
higher data rates are getting us more accurate twisted pairs than in the
past. Also, active inputs and outputs such as those from THAT Corp are
more accurate than transformers.

--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
  #15  
Old July 22nd 20, 12:54 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
Mike Rivers[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,128
Default Anything to say on Speakons

On 7/21/2020 7:43 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:

>> ** One word -*microphones*.


Oh, yeah. I guess I was distracted when the discussion drifted away from
SpeakOn connectors. Those can be used for balanced or unbalanced
connections, but nobody really thinks about them that way. They're
connectors that

(a) are (at least so far unique to loudspeakers so you won't mistakenly
plug a cable from a microphone into a loudspeaker and wonder why it's
not working, and

(b) are robust enough not to pull apart as easily as many other
connectors, and

(c) there's a standard wiring convention for them (including signal
polarity) that's more positive than red and black banana plugs


--
For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
  #16  
Old July 22nd 20, 01:30 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
geoff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,647
Default Anything to say on Speakons

On 22/07/2020 9:44 am, Les Cargill wrote:
> Tatonik wrote:
>>
>> I'm planning on terminating some speaker cables with Speakon
>> connectors. **I've plugged in Speakons a few times, but never built
>> any cables with them.* In addition to the Neutrik brand, I noticed
>> Amphenol has their own version (slightly more expensive).* Is there
>> any reason to pick one over the other (or any other brand I don't know
>> about), in regard to quality or ease of wiring or general use?
>>
>> I'm surprised this style of connector hasn't caught on in high-end
>> home audio.* The basic design seems so much safer and more secure than
>> anything else I've encountered.
>>

>
> Speakons all but preclude daisy-chaining unless it's provided for on the
> panel ( or you make a box ). That's the only real downside and it might
> be that big of one.
>


Why should that be any more difficult for daisy-chaining than XLR
female/male or jack ins/outs on a speaker, which are usually 'panel'
anyway ?

geoff
  #17  
Old July 22nd 20, 01:43 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
geoff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,647
Default Anything to say on Speakons

On 22/07/2020 11:54 am, Mike Rivers wrote:
> On 7/21/2020 7:43 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>>> ** One word -*microphones*.

>
> Oh, yeah. I guess I was distracted when the discussion drifted away from
> SpeakOn connectors. Those can be used for balanced or unbalanced
> connections, but nobody really thinks about them that way. They're
> connectors that
>
> (a) are (at least so far unique to loudspeakers so you won't mistakenly
> plug a cable from a microphone into a loudspeaker and wonder why it's
> not working, and


I always shudder when I see a speaker with XLRs, and more-so with an amp
with XLR outputs.

a - because of the potential for equipment disaster.
b - with the confusion when scrambling for the appropriate cable.

geoff
  #18  
Old July 22nd 20, 02:43 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
Scott Dorsey
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,730
Default Anything to say on Speakons

geoff > wrote:
>Why should that be any more difficult for daisy-chaining than XLR
>female/male or jack ins/outs on a speaker, which are usually 'panel'
>anyway ?


You can't daisy-chain XLRs, 1/4 phone, Socapex, or Canon P connectors either,
all of which are popular for speakers.

But you can daisy-chain banana plugs and spade terminals.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #19  
Old July 22nd 20, 03:26 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
geoff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,647
Default Anything to say on Speakons

On 22/07/2020 1:43 pm, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> geoff > wrote:
>> Why should that be any more difficult for daisy-chaining than XLR
>> female/male or jack ins/outs on a speaker, which are usually 'panel'
>> anyway ?

>
> You can't daisy-chain XLRs, 1/4 phone, Socapex, or Canon P connectors either,
> all of which are popular for speakers.
>
> But you can daisy-chain banana plugs and spade terminals.
> --scott
>


I though the qualification 'panel' implied parallel connectors mounted
on a panel (or chassis, or whatever), in which case a doddle for any
connector.

Just don't hang too much cable-weight on those piggy-backed bananas !

geoff
  #20  
Old July 22nd 20, 05:09 AM posted to rec.audio.pro
Phil Allison[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 483
Default Anything to say on Speakons

Mike Rivers wrote:
=================
> Phil Allison wrote:
>
> > ** One word -*microphones*.

>
> I'm a generalist. I know what works for all balanced connections but I
> don't know what works for all microphones.
>


** ??

> On a theoretical level, even backed up by measurements, your unique
> setup might be better than what's been convention for a long time. You
> can build it, but you probably couldn't sell it.
>


** It ain't unique - many folk were using co-ax for low Z mics decades ago.

Before the "it has to be "balanced" rot set in.

Pro audio is infested with myths plus " monkey see, monkey do" thinking.

The corollary of which is " monkey no see, monkey no do " insanity.



..... Phil


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2020 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.