[Dude Japan]

Hey All,

My friend Aaron has a unique situation that I was hoping you may be
able to help with. Here are the requirements:

An instructor teaches a class of 8 guitarists.

The guitarists sit in 4 pairs.

Each pair of guitarists listens to him/herself on 1 powered monitor.

The instructor is able to control the volume of each of the (8)
guitarists.

The instructor is able to play music from an iPod or CD player through
all (4) of the powered monitors simultaneously.

What equipment would he need to do this as cheaply as possible?

Thanks,

Clay

[Mike Rivers]

Dude Japan wrote:

An instructor teaches a class of 8 guitarists.
The guitarists sit in 4 pairs.
Each pair of guitarists listens to him/herself on 1 powered monitor.

Why do guitarists in a class need a monitor? Electric guitars?

The instructor is able to control the volume of each of the (8)
guitarists.

He does? Or he wants to?

The instructor is able to play music from an iPod or CD player through
all (4) of the powered monitors simultaneously.

What equipment would he need to do this as cheaply as possible?

Oh, I guess you want us to design a system for you. Assuming these are
electric guitars, you'll want a direct box (DI) for each one. Given that
the purpose of this class is just to learn the basics, and not get great
tone from the guitar (in which case you'd use real amplifiers) you can
probably get away with the cheapest direct boxes you can find. There are
some that offer two channels (two guitars) in one box, and some that
offer eight. Most offer just one. Shop around. I'd recommend a "twofer"
if you can find four that fit the budget. It might make cabling a bit
easier.

Then you need a mixer. You'll need at least eight mic inputs (for the
guitars through the DIs) and one stereo line input (for the recorded
music). If you want each pair of students to hear only his own guitar in
his monitor, your mixer will need at least four pre-fader auxiliary
sends. Connect each auxiliary send output to a powered monitor. The
channel auxiliary sends will adjust the mix for each pair of students.
The basic mix can be the two guitars (assuming they'll be playing either
as a duet or one at a time, the guitars plus the CD player, or all the
guitars playing together.

Go shopping.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[David Grant]

What equipment would he need to do this as cheaply as possible?

Oh, I guess you want us to design a system for you.

I didn't know you offered this service for free. I'm sending you
architecturals for a new 20,000 seat performing arts centre.

[Scott Dorsey]

David Grant wrote:

What equipment would he need to do this as cheaply as possible?

Oh, I guess you want us to design a system for you.

I didn't know you offered this service for free. I'm sending you
architecturals for a new 20,000 seat performing arts centre.

Oh, I can do that one! You need a mike for the announcer with a Bogen
Soundcolumn, and you just double the string and brass sections.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Mike Rivers]

David Grant wrote:

I didn't know you offered this service for free. I'm sending you
architecturals for a new 20,000 seat performing arts centre.

I didn't design the system for him, I told him what to look for. If he
wants me to pick out equipment for him to buy, draw a hookup diagram,
and write and instruction manual, that'll be about $5,000. Auditoriums
are $100/seat with a minimum of $10,000. Always happy to find creative
ways to make the boat payments.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Dude Japan]

Mike,

Thanks. Yes, the class room would just be used to teach basic guitar
skills, so he didn't want to spend too much on guitar amps.

I like the idea of doing the double DI boxes.

What is the signal path from the CD Player to the monitors though? How
can he reduce it to mono and then put it to four different outputs?

Thanks Again!

[Mike Rivers]

Dude Japan wrote:

What is the signal path from the CD Player to the monitors though? How
can he reduce it to mono and then put it to four different outputs?

It'll get reduced to mono in the mixer since the two channels he
connects it to will be mixed when they're sent to one auxiliary send.

Path is like this:

CD Player connected to (say) mixer channels 15-15. Turn up Aux 1, 2, 3,
and 4 on those two channels. If the mixer has stereo line inputs (for
example the Mackie Onyx 1220) there's a single set of Aux controls and
inputs are summed to the Aux busses. So it's a bit simpler if there's a
stereo channel.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Dude Japan]

Path is like this:

CD Player connected to (say) mixer channels 15-15. Turn up Aux 1, 2, 3,
and 4 on those two channels. If the mixer has stereo line inputs (for
example the Mackie Onyx 1220) there's a single set of Aux controls and
inputs are summed to the Aux busses. So it's a bit simpler if there's a
stereo channel.


But the Onyx 1220 wouldn't work for this situation, right? Because it
only has 2 aux sends per channel?

I'm having a hard time finding an affordable mixer with 4 pre-fader
aux sends per channel.

I'm wondering if splitting the the CD-player's signal with y-
connectors would be a better, if less elegant, solution for this.

[Mike Rivers]

Dude Japan wrote:

But the Onyx 1220 wouldn't work for this situation, right? Because it
only has 2 aux sends per channel?

Right. And it only has 4 mic inputs. I just happened to be looking at
one that's in front of me to confirm that the stereo channels have only
one set of send controls. You got the cheap consulting job, remember. g

I'm having a hard time finding an affordable mixer with 4 pre-fader
aux sends per channel.

Yes, you will. Mixers tend to be "square" - the more outputs you want,
the more inputs you tend to get whether you need them or not. You'll
probably need to look at 16-channel mixers. Maybe the teacher has a band
and can use it for PA in between classes.

I'm wondering if splitting the the CD-player's signal with y-
connectors would be a better, if less elegant, solution for this.

What good would that do you? And what would you split it to? You're
still going to need an aux send for each of the four student's speakers.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Dude Japan]

I'm wondering if splitting the the CD-player's signal with y-
connectors would be a better, if less elegant, solution for this.

What good would that do you? And what would you split it to? You're
still going to need an aux send for each of the four student's speakers.


Everything would still need to go through a preamp. But I'm thinking
that we would only need 1 aux send per channel if we used Y-connectors
to combine the signals after they leave the mixer.

So if the CD player's signal was split coming out of the aux send, it
could then be combined with the guitars' signal (using another y-
connector) before the powered monitor.

Right? Or would the signal be degraded?

[Mike Rivers]

Dude Japan wrote:

Everything would still need to go through a preamp. But I'm thinking
that we would only need 1 aux send per channel if we used Y-connectors
to combine the signals after they leave the mixer.

Even though you'd only use one auxiliary send per guitar per channel,
understand that aux sends send to busses, and it's those busses that
feed the powered speakers. If all the guitars went out the same aux bus,
then you'd hear every guitar in every speaker.

You might be able to get away with using a Y cable to combine the output
of the aux bus with the output of the CD player, but there's no
guarantees until you try. However, if you're inclineed to do that, why
not just get a pair of cheap powered speakers for the CD player and not
run it through the mixer at all. I assume the idea, when he's playing a
CD, is for everyone to hear it.

[Dude Japan]

You might be able to get away with using a Y cable to combine the output
of the aux bus with the output of the CD player, but there's no
guarantees until you try. However, if you're inclineed to do that, why
not just get a pair of cheap powered speakers for the CD player and not
run it through the mixer at all. I assume the idea, when he's playing a
CD, is for everyone to hear it.

I've brought that up too. It's what I would be inclined to do. He
seems set on it all running through the same monitors.