I used to have a Threshold FET-10 phono preamp hooked up to my lowly Linn
LP-10 phono with a CJ 75 watt tube amp and Gawd was this thing astonishing
in capturing the essence of the recording!No, gentlemen, ordinary products
do not sound the same, maybe as you say I'm hearing colorations but you
could listen for hours at a time and just be enamored of the music .I insist
that what we hear cannot yet adequately be measured, and that some products
when put together in the right combinations will create a very pleasing
illusion of music, or whatever it is we're hearing.Experiment for yourselves
with some decent class A circuit topologies.Buy some tube amps.Experiment
with your ears, and don't analyze too much.Keep it fun....
"MZ" wrote in message
...
a.. I want to calrify the post I made about scientist. Obviously there
is a
huge amount of scientific facts in textbooks and scientific journals but
there is also a tremendous amount of scientific discovery based on
theory.
I mean to write that most scientific discovery is based on theory. Here
is
a definition of science from dictionary.com
1.. The observation, identification, description, experimental
investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
2.. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
3.. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

Even simpler: science = attempting to answer questions.

If there's a question, then theories usually arise from a set of
observations. Further data is generally needed to provide a logical basis
for that theory. And, quite simply, the theory with the most compelling
evidence wins. Sometimes the evidence is overwhelming. Other times it's
not, either due to technical constraints or a theory that is wrong or
fails to capture the phenomenon in its entirety.

"scott and barb" . wrote in message
hlink.net...
I used to have a Threshold FET-10 phono preamp hooked up to my lowly Linn
LP-10 phono with a CJ 75 watt tube amp and Gawd was this thing astonishing
in capturing the essence of the recording!No, gentlemen, ordinary products
do not sound the same, maybe as you say I'm hearing colorations but you
could listen for hours at a time and just be enamored of the music .I
insist
that what we hear cannot yet adequately be measured, and that some
products
when put together in the right combinations will create a very pleasing
illusion of music, or whatever it is we're hearing.Experiment for
yourselves
with some decent class A circuit topologies.Buy some tube amps.Experiment
with your ears, and don't analyze too much.Keep it fun....


The discussion is about solid state amps, not tube amps.

Les

The last defense of a defeated man - making up quotes. How much lower
will
you go?

Kind of like how you made up the "quote" right above it?

What quote? I didn't write a quote. Having trouble reading again?

I used to have a Threshold FET-10 phono preamp hooked up to my lowly Linn
LP-10 phono with a CJ 75 watt tube amp and Gawd was this thing astonishing
in capturing the essence of the recording!No, gentlemen, ordinary products
do not sound the same, maybe as you say I'm hearing colorations but you
could listen for hours at a time and just be enamored of the music .I insist
that what we hear cannot yet adequately be measured, and that some products
when put together in the right combinations will create a very pleasing
illusion of music, or whatever it is we're hearing.

What do you suggest, then, is the force that's underlying the difference
that we don't yet have the technology to measure? Are you suggesting that
we can't measure the voltage and current precisely enough? Or are you
suggesting that there's another force that's responsible that we don't
know about yet?

Experiment for yourselves
with some decent class A circuit topologies.Buy some tube amps.Experiment
with your ears, and don't analyze too much.Keep it fun....

Neither of those fly in the car audio realm. Class A is just way too
inefficient, and to my knowledge there aren't any car audio amplifiers
that employ tube output stages.

"Les" wrote in message
...

The discussion is about solid state amps, not tube amps.

Don't mess in Les's playground or he'll get mad! If he says you can't talk
about tube amps, you can't! Of course, you could use a tube car amp, but
don't confuse him with facts like that. This is rec.AUDIO.car.

"jeffc" wrote in message
m...

"Les" wrote in message
...

The discussion is about solid state amps, not tube amps.

Don't mess in Les's playground or he'll get mad! If he says you can't
talk
about tube amps, you can't! Of course, you could use a tube car amp, but
don't confuse him with facts like that. This is rec.AUDIO.car.



He can talk about tube amps all he wants, but it is not relevant to our
discussion which is about car audio and solid state amps. I was merely
pointing the fact that the entire thread has been about solid state.

I have never seen a car audio amp with tube outputs to begin with, but I
guess there could be. Why anyone would want it is another story.

Les

Don't mess in Les's playground or he'll get mad! If he says you can't talk
about tube amps, you can't! Of course, you could use a tube car amp, but
don't confuse him with facts like that. This is rec.AUDIO.car.

Tube car amp? Is that anything like your class B car amp?

(waiting for jeffc to talk about the tubedriver amps)

He can talk about tube amps all he wants, but it is not relevant to our
discussion which is about car audio and solid state amps. I was merely
pointing the fact that the entire thread has been about solid state.

I have never seen a car audio amp with tube outputs to begin with, but I
guess there could be. Why anyone would want it is another story.

People like distortion. I'm not kidding. I know of several reports where
people claim a signal rich in second harmonics sounds better than an
undistorted signal - not knowing which signal was the distorted one, of
course (otherwise they probably would have chosen the undistorted one). There are some tube designs, not all, that
incorporate a relatively heavy bit of distortion, mostly in the form of
2nd order harmonics. I've yet to find a car audio amp with a tube output
stage, but I'm not up on the latest releases. But I would have thought
I'd heard of it by now.

So this is where jeffc steps in, ignores the fact that I've already stated
in numerous posts "solid state amps", but claims anyway that I'm backpedaling by
bringing up tube amps with high distortion content (something not found in
car audio).

"MZ" wrote in message
news
The last defense of a defeated man - making up quotes. How much lower
will
you go?

Kind of like how you made up the "quote" right above it?

What quote? I didn't write a quote. Having trouble reading again?

"That a class A/B amplifier exhibits an audible level of crossover
distortion?" Show me where.

"Les" wrote in message
...
I have never seen a car audio amp with tube outputs to begin with, but I
guess there could be. Why anyone would want it is another story.

You "guess there could be", huh.

"MZ" wrote in message
news
Don't mess in Les's playground or he'll get mad! If he says you can't
talk
about tube amps, you can't! Of course, you could use a tube car amp,
but
don't confuse him with facts like that. This is rec.AUDIO.car.

Tube car amp? Is that anything like your class B car amp?

No. What's your point other than getting excited about your post show up on
Usenet?

"MZ" wrote in message
news

Neither of those fly in the car audio realm. Class A is just way too
inefficient, and to my knowledge there aren't any car audio amplifiers
that employ tube output stages.

Oh my. Another one. Keep playing with our oscilloscope, you're learning a
lot.

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Les" wrote in message
...
I have never seen a car audio amp with tube outputs to begin with, but I
guess there could be. Why anyone would want it is another story.

You "guess there could be", huh.



Yes. What about that statement do you not like? I have never seen one, nor
read about one. But someone could have made one somewhere. But it wouldn't
be practical for use in a car. There is a tube mixing console and yet I
would be that most people wouldn't know about it, but it still exists.

Les

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"MZ" wrote in message
news
Don't mess in Les's playground or he'll get mad! If he says you can't
talk
about tube amps, you can't! Of course, you could use a tube car amp,
but
don't confuse him with facts like that. This is rec.AUDIO.car.

Tube car amp? Is that anything like your class B car amp?

No. What's your point other than getting excited about your post show up
on
Usenet?



Well, you brought in Class B amps into the discussion as if it were
relevant, which it wasn't. And yet we have not seen any examples from you of
Class B car amps. So why did you even bring it into the discussion?

Les
Now waiting for his reply of "follow along" or some other way to not answer
the question and still post.

What quote? I didn't write a quote. Having trouble reading again?

"That a class A/B amplifier exhibits an audible level of crossover
distortion?" Show me where.

I never put that in quotes. I was summarizing your argument. I based it
on this quote (note the quotation marks):

"Class A/B amps have something in common with class B amps -
crossover distortion"

So you're saying it exhibits crossover distortion, and you must also be
saying that it's audible because you took issue with me characterizing it
as insignificant.

I have never seen a car audio amp with tube outputs to begin with, but I
guess there could be. Why anyone would want it is another story.

You "guess there could be", huh.

Yep. But it's improbable. I haven't kept up with the "2005 models"
though. If you know of one, I'd love to see it.

Tube car amp? Is that anything like your class B car amp?

No. What's your point other than getting excited about your post show up on
Usenet?

My point is that such an animal doesn't exist. You felt the need to
introduce crossover distortion into the conversation, even though class B
designs aren't available in the car. Now it appears you'll be going the
same route with the tube amp argument, since you hassled Les about
excluding them from the conversation.

Neither of those fly in the car audio realm. Class A is just way too
inefficient, and to my knowledge there aren't any car audio amplifiers
that employ tube output stages.

Oh my. Another one. Keep playing with our oscilloscope, you're learning a
lot.

Which part of my post do you disagree with? That class A amps are too
inefficient for car use, or that tube output stages don't appear in car
amplifiers?

I suspect this is yet another one of your posts where you reply just to
take the focus off of your ignorance. The mark of a stupid person is a
refusal to try to learn from people who actually have EXPERIENCE and know
more about certain subjects. You've had experts weigh in on the issue
(have you ever even heard of Tom Nousaine?), people who get paid to do
this stuff for a living (Eddie and Les), yet you still insist on remaining
closed-minded.

Hey, Les, where do you suppose he snips this post? And how far off do you
think he is from taking single words from my sentences and connecting them
with ellipses to make it look like I said something else? After all, he's
already begun LYING about quotes, attributing quotes to me that I never
said.

"MZ" wrote in message
news

I never put that in quotes. I was summarizing your argument. I based it
on this quote (note the quotation marks):

"Class A/B amps have something in common with class B amps -
crossover distortion"

So you're saying it exhibits crossover distortion, and you must also be
saying that it's audible because you took issue with me characterizing it
as insignificant.

Oh, now you're assuming what I meant. Well you certainly have made an ASS
out of U.

"Les" wrote in message
...

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Les" wrote in message
...
I have never seen a car audio amp with tube outputs to begin with, but
I
guess there could be. Why anyone would want it is another story.

You "guess there could be", huh.



Yes. What about that statement do you not like? I have never seen one, nor
read about one. But someone could have made one somewhere.

In other words, you're just plain ignorant on the issue, but you can't jump
into the debate fast enough.

"MZ" wrote in message
news
I have never seen a car audio amp with tube outputs to begin with, but
I
guess there could be. Why anyone would want it is another story.

You "guess there could be", huh.

Yep. But it's improbable. I haven't kept up with the "2005 models"
though. If you know of one, I'd love to see it.

Do a web search. It's not that hard, really.

"Les" wrote in message
...

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"MZ" wrote in message
news
Don't mess in Les's playground or he'll get mad! If he says you
can't
talk
about tube amps, you can't! Of course, you could use a tube car
amp,
but
don't confuse him with facts like that. This is rec.AUDIO.car.

Tube car amp? Is that anything like your class B car amp?

No. What's your point other than getting excited about your post show
up
on
Usenet?



Well, you brought in Class B amps into the discussion as if it were
relevant, which it wasn't. And yet we have not seen any examples from you
of
Class B car amps. So why did you even bring it into the discussion?

To show the design idea, and the design idea is shared with A/B amps. You
guys can't get more subtle idea, so I have to make it as clear as possible.

"MZ" wrote in message
news
Tube car amp? Is that anything like your class B car amp?

No. What's your point other than getting excited about your post show
up on
Usenet?

My point is that such an animal doesn't exist. You felt the need to
introduce crossover distortion into the conversation, even though class B
designs aren't available in the car.

And you felt the need to argue again like a little child, even though class
A/B designs are available in the car. Which means crossover distortion
exists in a car.

"MZ" wrote in message
news
Neither of those fly in the car audio realm. Class A is just way too
inefficient, and to my knowledge there aren't any car audio amplifiers
that employ tube output stages.

Oh my. Another one. Keep playing with our oscilloscope, you're
learning a
lot.

Which part of my post do you disagree with?

Why would you assume I disagreed with anything you said?

I suspect this is yet another one of your posts where you reply just to
take the focus off of your ignorance.

Now you're getting warm! The point of the post was to point out your
ignorance on the issue of tube amps in cars. You're a hoot!

"jeffc" wrote in message
.. .

"Les" wrote in message
...

"jeffc" wrote in message
...

"Les" wrote in message
...
I have never seen a car audio amp with tube outputs to begin with,
but
I
guess there could be. Why anyone would want it is another story.

You "guess there could be", huh.



Yes. What about that statement do you not like? I have never seen one,
nor
read about one. But someone could have made one somewhere.

In other words, you're just plain ignorant on the issue, but you can't
jump
into the debate fast enough.



I wasn't debating with the guy, idiot. I told him that our discussion was
focused on Solid state amps, the part which you snipped out. The addition of
tube amps into the discussion would have confused most readers, yourself
included.
I then added that as far as I know there is not an amp designed for car
audio with tube outputs.

It was never a debate, you should really try and brush up on your reading
skills before saying asinine things like you just did just so you can post
to the newsgroup. But if you know of one then let us all know!

Les

"jeffc" wrote in message
.. .

"MZ" wrote in message
news
I have never seen a car audio amp with tube outputs to begin with,
but
I
guess there could be. Why anyone would want it is another story.

You "guess there could be", huh.

Yep. But it's improbable. I haven't kept up with the "2005 models"
though. If you know of one, I'd love to see it.

Do a web search. It's not that hard, really.



Then name some tube amps for car audio. You are the one that has a problem
with Mark and I saying that as far as we know there are not any pure tube
amps for car audio, so prove that there are or otherwise shut up about it.

Les

"jeffc" wrote in message
.. .

"MZ" wrote in message
news
Tube car amp? Is that anything like your class B car amp?

No. What's your point other than getting excited about your post show
up on
Usenet?

My point is that such an animal doesn't exist. You felt the need to
introduce crossover distortion into the conversation, even though class
B
designs aren't available in the car.

And you felt the need to argue again like a little child, even though
class
A/B designs are available in the car. Which means crossover distortion
exists in a car.

But not enough for the human ear to detect, therefore it is insignifigant
and not relevant.

Les

jeffc wrote:

Talking to you is
waste of time.

jeffc wrote:

You're a real ****head.

jeffc wrote:

"A little like your love affair with Eddie. But hey, sometimes things in
life.... you just can't explain.

jeffc wrote:


Oh, now you're assuming what I meant. Well you certainly have made an ASS
out of U.

jeffc wrote:

you're just plain ignorant

jeffc wrote:

again like a little child

jeffc wrote:

You're a hoot!

I never put that in quotes. I was summarizing your argument. I based
it
on this quote (note the quotation marks):

"Class A/B amps have something in common with class B amps -
crossover distortion"

So you're saying it exhibits crossover distortion, and you must also be
saying that it's audible because you took issue with me characterizing
it
as insignificant.

Oh, now you're assuming what I meant. Well you certainly have made an ASS
out of U.

There's nothing else you could have possibly meant. If that's not what you
meant, then why would you take issue over my characterizing it as
insignificant?

Do a web search. It's not that hard, really.

Yep. And it turns up nothing. So I guess there STILL aren't any.

To show the design idea, and the design idea is shared with A/B amps.

In terms of crossover distortion (the point that YOU brought up), no, they
don't share design ideas. In fact, class A/B was devised specifically to
set the two classes apart.

Oh my. Another one. Keep playing with our oscilloscope, you're
learning a
lot.

Which part of my post do you disagree with?

Why would you assume I disagreed with anything you said?

Because you responded to it with a snide comment.

I suspect this is yet another one of your posts where you reply just to
take the focus off of your ignorance.

Now you're getting warm! The point of the post was to point out your
ignorance on the issue of tube amps in cars. You're a hoot!

I'm also ignorant of purple unicorns. Like tube amps in cars, they don't
exist.

"Les" wrote in message ...

Then name some tube amps for car audio. You are the one that has a problem
with Mark and I saying that as far as we know there are not any pure tube
amps for car audio, so prove that there are or otherwise shut up about it.

Why should I? I'm having too much fun listen to you 2 cyborgs make fools out of
yourselves.

"MZ" wrote in message
...
Do a web search. It's not that hard, really.

Yep. And it turns up nothing. So I guess there STILL aren't any.

First page of my search
http://www.milbert.com/
Then there are of course any number of tube amps people made for their cars
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1965/caramp.html
etc.
Apology accepted.