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#41
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wrote in message ... "My point is .... I needed to find a business model where, at minimum, I made my money back." Wouldn't it be smart if record companies did the same thing? jb |
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#42
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1089124078k@trad... Actually one assumes that paying the admission price is supporting the band. I wouldn't go that far, Mike. Most local bars have tons of groups come through and often it's a $5 or $10 door charge which goes to the band. Whether the person gives a **** about the band or not makes less difference than whether the person simply goes to that bar because the bartender knows him or he runs a tab (forget the gender specific here). Not as a general case, but there are some people who are doing that. The rare few make a real living at it (usually they have already done the grunt work over the past 20 years to establish themselves and now do a little touring) - Tom Rush is a good example, someone who went the DIY route even before web sites were common. The real point being that using the internet for the SOLE purpose of selling product is probably a bad idea. If one can't support sales in Pittsburgh, who cares if they live in Atlanta? So the web, even though it is a world wide situation, can reasonably help support a group/artist if one is able and willing to perform and has music worth the effort of the fans. In the case of the original point of the thread, it's such an esoteric concept to think that a composer/arranger would be able to perform live that it's almost negligable. But for artists looking to work their way out of the proverbial regional basement, a decent website with full contact information and numerous other ways to encourage fans to pursue the act, well, it's an open field. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio In article writes: One assumes that if you're at a concert listening to the band, you can determine whether you want to support the band through a $15 purchase. Obviously the point is that one simply can't make music and put it up on the net and make money. But the chances of a total unknown putting music up on a web site and making a living selling it are very tiny, no matter how good the music is. But even the relatively small effort to send promo copies to appropriate publishers who will give it a mention can help. -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
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#43
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Yeah, but you have to give it too her. She keeps coming back. I like
mental puzzles in the morning! g -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio "EggHd" wrote in message ... People make money recording music without having to sell it in album form, there are so many other avenues to market music to, music is everywhere. Do you ever get to any substance in your posts? --------------------------------------- "I know enough to know I don't know enough" |
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#44
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"Jay Kadis" wrote in message
... You can't become "unfamous" very easily. Damn, that's a good statement. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio In article znr1089124334k@trad, (Mike Rivers) wrote: This is very true. But a large number of people who write and play music want to be stars, if only little stars. Commercial musicians and writers can indeed make a decent living but nobody will ever know their names. This might not be a bad thing. The few "famous" artists I've met pay a price for their fame that I would not be willing to pay. I'd certainly rather make a moderate living and be able to go anywhere I want any time than make millions and live in a fish bowl. -Jay -- x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ------x x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x |
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#45
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"Uncle Russ" wrote in message ... I completely agree with Bob Olhsson ... having learned the hard way what he so succinctly wrote. For some reason, a very few people that did what you did manage to sell a lot more records than you did, starting out in the same situation. Among other things, they tend to be very, very, very good at what they do in one way or another. That's not to say that you aren't, I have no idea, but I think people should avoid making blanket statements like 'you can't do it without a deal', because a very few people have, or 'nobody with a deal really makes money' because a very few people really have. You have to realize that very few people are successful in music or any kind of business. My opinion about your situation is that 9 months isn't very long and you might need to look at how you could do business differently, and in business one of the most important things is actually attitiude, as well as commitment. jb I'm lucky enough to own a small magazine publishing company that earns me a decent living. When I returned to jazz, I expanded my company to include music CD production. I bought good gear and discovered my photography studio doubles as a good music studio. With the help of Ben Maas (whom I met on this group), I recorded and produced my own album. I used my writing, photographic, and computer graphics skills to create artwork, liner notes, and a website with free sample downloads. The album is for sale not only on my own site and from advertising in my own publications, but also online at Amazon, Tower Records, CD Baby, and half a dozen Internet download sites (like Apple I-Tunes). I sent a copy to Fred Kaplan, the author of the article at the beginning of this thread, and he failed to acknowledge receipt of -- let alone review -- the CD. A couple of less well known people did review it (very positively). Even without paying a publicist, I even got my fair share of air play on a few all-jazz FM stations around North America. Big deal. After 9 months, I doubt I have sold as many as 60 albums. It doesn't matter how good you are, how pretty your album looks and sounds, who plays on it, or how cool your website may be. Without tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in advertising and promotion and without strong industry connections, you ain't going nowhere! You won't even get much chance to play live because even small, parochial festivals want performers their audience has heard of. Without a lot of live performances, your greatest hope of sales -- from the bandstand -- will never materialize. Luckily, I don't care about "stardom"; I'm in it for the music, the creativity, and the fun. Maybe someday I'll be able to play at a few festivals and finally sell off my remaining 900 CDs. And I'll certainly record others, make a few copies of the masters, and probably give most away to friends (and my half dozen fans). Unless somebody else -- somebody with money and connections and knowhow -- makes you a "star" (or at least a somewhat familiar name) you will never become one. And without name recognition, your music will barely leave the studio. Kaplan did admit up front that ArtistShare is probably only for people with an established name and following. Also, I might add, for people who don't know what end of a computer is up. Because, for a lot less money, you can do it yourself at least as well, and attain the same results. But you'll make more money mowing lawns. Uncle Russ WESTLAKE PUBLISHING COMPANY www.finescalerr.com WESTLAKE RECORDS www.westlakerecords.com Bob Olhsson wrote: It's been an avenue many artists have used all along! This isn't necessarily such a great deal since all of the production, promotion, music licensing and sales efforts are left up to the artist! The main thing record labels do is promoting, publicizing and selling recordings. Somebody's got to do it and the less known an artist is, the more difficult and expensive it is to do. Another very tangible benefit from being on a recognized label is the amountof live performance fees one can ask. Until somebody such as ArtistShare raises an unknown artist to having an international profile, we are comparing apples to oranges. -- Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined! 615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com |
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#46
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"Roger W. Norman" wrote in message
... "Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1089124078k@trad... The real point being that using the internet for the SOLE purpose of selling product is probably a bad idea. Gonna have to disagree with you there, in my case (with my own music) I'm using the internet exclusively - all my sales have been via the web, and at least half have been from countries other than the US. Also, in my case, I don't gig, don't have a band that I play with, etc., so that's a little bit different scenario, too, but there you have it. Have I sold a ton? No, I've still got a couple hundred left from the 1,000 I originally ordered, and a couple hundred have gone out as promos - it's been available since July of '02, so you can do the math on the rest. I think if you're someone like me - doing niche music for one, and not attempting to earn a living at it, for another - the web is the way to go... I've more than broken even, and am nearly (fingers crossed, LOL!) done with my 2nd CD. Roger, I remember you mentioning that you've heard some of my stuff before, but for anyone else who wants to see what I'm talking about, you can go here if you want to check it out: http://www.saqqararecords.com/html/N...son%20Home.htm On the OTHER hand, for more mainstream bands like this... http://www.saqqararecords.com/html/Abinormal%20Home.htm ....your position is right on; they gig, sell CD's at their gigs, and as we try to get them shopped to someone who can take them to the next level, they use the web to promote themselves & keep in touch with their fans. In fact, I think they do a pretty good job of it, and if anyone reading this thread would like to see a good example of that, you can link to their website from the navbar at the left side of the page on the previous link, or you can go there directly... he http://www.abinormal.com Now, we just released the Abinormal CD, and judging from the pace of sales, these guys will sell more of their CD's at their gigs in a few months than I've sold of mine since it's release; so, depending on what you're trying to accomplish, there's a place for the web as a sales tool alone, and a place for it as mainly a promotional tool, IMO. Just two little small-time success stories... in any event, you still have to have a label with some clout that can generate enough noise to get you into the realm of the big-time success stories, however (again, IMO). -- Neil Henderson Saqqara Records http://www.saqqararecords.com So the web, even though it is a world wide situation, can reasonably help support a group/artist if one is able and willing to perform and has music worth the effort of the fans. In the case of the original point of the thread, it's such an esoteric concept to think that a composer/arranger would be able to perform live that it's almost negligable. But for artists looking to work their way out of the proverbial regional basement, a decent website with full contact information and numerous other ways to encourage fans to pursue the act, well, it's an open field. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio In article writes: One assumes that if you're at a concert listening to the band, you can determine whether you want to support the band through a $15 purchase. Obviously the point is that one simply can't make music and put it up on the net and make money. But the chances of a total unknown putting music up on a web site and making a living selling it are very tiny, no matter how good the music is. But even the relatively small effort to send promo copies to appropriate publishers who will give it a mention can help. -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
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#47
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Exception that proves the rule! g
-- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio wrote in message om... "Roger W. Norman" wrote in message ... "Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1089124078k@trad... The real point being that using the internet for the SOLE purpose of selling product is probably a bad idea. Gonna have to disagree with you there, in my case (with my own music) I'm using the internet exclusively - all my sales have been via the web, and at least half have been from countries other than the US. Also, in my case, I don't gig, don't have a band that I play with, etc., so that's a little bit different scenario, too, but there you have it. Have I sold a ton? No, I've still got a couple hundred left from the 1,000 I originally ordered, and a couple hundred have gone out as promos - it's been available since July of '02, so you can do the math on the rest. I think if you're someone like me - doing niche music for one, and not attempting to earn a living at it, for another - the web is the way to go... I've more than broken even, and am nearly (fingers crossed, LOL!) done with my 2nd CD. Roger, I remember you mentioning that you've heard some of my stuff before, but for anyone else who wants to see what I'm talking about, you can go here if you want to check it out: http://www.saqqararecords.com/html/N...son%20Home.htm On the OTHER hand, for more mainstream bands like this... http://www.saqqararecords.com/html/Abinormal%20Home.htm ...your position is right on; they gig, sell CD's at their gigs, and as we try to get them shopped to someone who can take them to the next level, they use the web to promote themselves & keep in touch with their fans. In fact, I think they do a pretty good job of it, and if anyone reading this thread would like to see a good example of that, you can link to their website from the navbar at the left side of the page on the previous link, or you can go there directly... he http://www.abinormal.com Now, we just released the Abinormal CD, and judging from the pace of sales, these guys will sell more of their CD's at their gigs in a few months than I've sold of mine since it's release; so, depending on what you're trying to accomplish, there's a place for the web as a sales tool alone, and a place for it as mainly a promotional tool, IMO. Just two little small-time success stories... in any event, you still have to have a label with some clout that can generate enough noise to get you into the realm of the big-time success stories, however (again, IMO). -- Neil Henderson Saqqara Records http://www.saqqararecords.com So the web, even though it is a world wide situation, can reasonably help support a group/artist if one is able and willing to perform and has music worth the effort of the fans. In the case of the original point of the thread, it's such an esoteric concept to think that a composer/arranger would be able to perform live that it's almost negligable. But for artists looking to work their way out of the proverbial regional basement, a decent website with full contact information and numerous other ways to encourage fans to pursue the act, well, it's an open field. -- Roger W. Norman SirMusic Studio In article writes: One assumes that if you're at a concert listening to the band, you can determine whether you want to support the band through a $15 purchase. Obviously the point is that one simply can't make music and put it up on the net and make money. But the chances of a total unknown putting music up on a web site and making a living selling it are very tiny, no matter how good the music is. But even the relatively small effort to send promo copies to appropriate publishers who will give it a mention can help. -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over, lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo |
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#49
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#51
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You, and maybe some others, might have misunderstood my statements:
Assuming you have something to sell the public wants, it is possible, with a lot of work and maybe a lot of expense, to establish a business selling it. And, yes, you must approach any business with the right attitude. I think 20 years of successful self employment have provided me with some insights you may have assumed I and others might lack. I was referring to selling traditional small combo jazz CDs as a profitable business. To me, that means something that provides an income of about 50,000 dollars per year at the very minimum. Less than that and you are better off investing your time in something else to earn money. Some people have earned that much and more from offering more popular kinds of music such as rock or hip-hop. Some people can make $100,000 per year selling their wares at swap meets, street festivals, and similar events. Some musicians may earn $80,000 per year playing and selling CDs in the New York subways. Some of us, though, find such venues unsuitable for personal or business reasons. The majority of jazz musicians, and probably many other musicians, are out of their element in such situations. And many people cannot afford to devote full time to such risky ventures. Some people are natural salesmen; most musicians aren't. That is why record companies, promoters, publicists, and agents exist. Your comments are valid insofar as they address the exceptions to the rule. As a successful independent publisher, my background and training is well suited to producing and marketing music CDs. But I don't have industry connections, my catalog is much to small to interest a distributor, and the jazz market is far too ill defined to permit focussed advertising. A small businessman also doesn't gamble with his money; he invests it. Tossing $100,000 into a publicity campaign for traditional jazz in today's climate is a risk nobody would take unless he easily could afford to lose every penny. Your comments suggest you may not have completely thought through the specific situation I described. I do agree with you that some level of success is possible or I never would have invested anything. But most people with real world experience would realize my comments about marketing traditional small combo jazz are very typical of what most responsible businessmen could expect in today's climate. Not gamblers; businessmen. Uncle Russ WESTLAKE PUBLISHING COMPANY www.finescalerr.com WESTLAKE RECORDS www.westlakerecords.com "reddred" wrote in message ... I think people should avoid making blanket statements like 'you can't do it without a deal', because a very few people have, or 'nobody with a deal really makes money' because a very few people really have. You have to realize that very few people are successful in music or any kind of business. My opinion about your situation is that 9 months isn't very long and you might need to look at how you could do business differently, and in business one of the most important things is actually attitiude, as well as commitment. jb |
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#52
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#53
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"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1089200478k@trad... In article OSPAM writes: Have I sold a ton? No, I've still got a couple hundred left from the 1,000 I originally ordered, and a couple hundred have gone out as promos - it's been available since July of '02, so you can do the math on the rest. OK, I did. In two years, you've made about enough to pay for a pretty decent mic. This perfectly reasonable for a hobby, Well, a pretty decent mic, and a few other things too, and it's enough to motivate me to do it again with a follow-up CD. I enjoy the hell out of the whole process from start to finish, and my listeners enjoy what they get out if it... it's a win-win, even though it's at a small, minor-league level. And for me, that level of success is fine... I have no illusions of becoming a rock star in my early fourties, ferchrissakes! Now, in the case of my little label itself, I wouldn't mind at all if I can build that into something a but more substantial than just the current two artists on the roster that I currently have, and I am working towards that... talking to a few more bands & seeing if we can put something together that makes sense for all parties involved. That's a hobby at this stage too, of course, but we'll see where that can go. If nothing else, it affords me the ability to contribute to the creative process with regard to music other than my own, and it affords the artist the ability to get a product out there that's better than what they could put together on their own. but believe it or not, there are people who actually think that they deserve a living from their music and all they need to do is create and the world will appreciate their efforts enough to sustain them. Yeah, no kidding...believe it or not there are people in other industries that feel the same way; but then you've probably encountered them as well, so you know what I'm saying. -- Neil Henderson Saqqara Records http://www.saqqararecords.com |
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#54
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"Andrea" wrote in message
om... (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1089124334k@trad... In article writes: People make money recording music without having to sell it in album form, there are so many other avenues to market music to, music is everywhere. This is very true. But a large number of people who write and play music want to be stars, if only little stars. Commercial musicians and writers can indeed make a decent living but nobody will ever know their names. Thanks to all the people who have diverted all of thier talents and energies into trying to be stars, there is more money and less competition for the real money in music... Wellllll... my "musical integrity meter" wants to lean in the direction you're espousing, but my "reality-check meter" tends to hard-peg over to the other side... there's certainly some room for what you're alluding to, but you have to admit, the BIG levels of success are found in those who are stars (most of whom have to work on it & divert some of their talents to it, to some extent), and have the star-making machine behind them - and ideally those who can combine the two. -- Neil Henderson Saqqara Records http://www.saqqararecords.com |
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#55
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wrote in message om...
"Andrea" wrote in message om... (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1089124334k@trad... In article writes: People make money recording music without having to sell it in album form, there are so many other avenues to market music to, music is everywhere. This is very true. But a large number of people who write and play music want to be stars, if only little stars. Commercial musicians and writers can indeed make a decent living but nobody will ever know their names. Thanks to all the people who have diverted all of thier talents and energies into trying to be stars, there is more money and less competition for the real money in music... Wellllll... my "musical integrity meter" wants to lean in the direction you're espousing, but my "reality-check meter" tends to hard-peg over to the other side... there's certainly some room for what you're alluding to, but you have to admit, the BIG levels of success are found in those who are stars (most of whom have to work on it & divert some of their talents to it, to some extent), and have the star-making machine behind them - and ideally those who can combine the two. It feels like a lot of people have "lotto fever",when it comes to making music, and have shoved thier "reality-check meters" in a dusty box in the back of the closet. They are so consumed by the rockstar meme that there is no room for the "musical integrity meter", or the "art for arts sake and art for making a living meter" either. Andrea http://www.andrearogers.com |
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#56
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"they're a major indie label."
Where does the indie stop and the major start? "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#57
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"they're a major indie label."
Where does the indie stop and the major start? "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#58
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Andrea wrote:
wrote in message om... "Andrea" wrote in message .com... (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1089124334k@trad... In article writes: People make money recording music without having to sell it in album form, there are so many other avenues to market music to, music is everywhere. This is very true. But a large number of people who write and play music want to be stars, if only little stars. Commercial musicians and writers can indeed make a decent living but nobody will ever know their names. Thanks to all the people who have diverted all of thier talents and energies into trying to be stars, there is more money and less competition for the real money in music... Wellllll... my "musical integrity meter" wants to lean in the direction you're espousing, but my "reality-check meter" tends to hard-peg over to the other side... there's certainly some room for what you're alluding to, but you have to admit, the BIG levels of success are found in those who are stars (most of whom have to work on it & divert some of their talents to it, to some extent), and have the star-making machine behind them - and ideally those who can combine the two. It feels like a lot of people have "lotto fever",when it comes to making music, and have shoved thier "reality-check meters" in a dusty box in the back of the closet. They are so consumed by the rockstar meme that there is no room for the "musical integrity meter", or the "art for arts sake and art for making a living meter" either. I remember talking with a friend in Austin a few years back, speaking about a particular band whose members were earning enough that "they didn't have to have day jobs." It was one of *very* few groups in town doing so. For those of you who aren't familiar with Austin, the town has a voracious appetite for live music. |
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#59
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Andrea wrote:
wrote in message om... "Andrea" wrote in message .com... (Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1089124334k@trad... In article writes: People make money recording music without having to sell it in album form, there are so many other avenues to market music to, music is everywhere. This is very true. But a large number of people who write and play music want to be stars, if only little stars. Commercial musicians and writers can indeed make a decent living but nobody will ever know their names. Thanks to all the people who have diverted all of thier talents and energies into trying to be stars, there is more money and less competition for the real money in music... Wellllll... my "musical integrity meter" wants to lean in the direction you're espousing, but my "reality-check meter" tends to hard-peg over to the other side... there's certainly some room for what you're alluding to, but you have to admit, the BIG levels of success are found in those who are stars (most of whom have to work on it & divert some of their talents to it, to some extent), and have the star-making machine behind them - and ideally those who can combine the two. It feels like a lot of people have "lotto fever",when it comes to making music, and have shoved thier "reality-check meters" in a dusty box in the back of the closet. They are so consumed by the rockstar meme that there is no room for the "musical integrity meter", or the "art for arts sake and art for making a living meter" either. I remember talking with a friend in Austin a few years back, speaking about a particular band whose members were earning enough that "they didn't have to have day jobs." It was one of *very* few groups in town doing so. For those of you who aren't familiar with Austin, the town has a voracious appetite for live music. |
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#61
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#62
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A label that has its own distribution network is a major. This covers
the 5 bigs, (Sony, BMG, EMI, Universal, and Warner) and their subsidiaries. Any label not owned by one of the three big majors, is an indie label. They use outside distribution. lahblah (knud) wrote in message ... "they're a major indie label." Where does the indie stop and the major start? "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#63
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A label that has its own distribution network is a major. This covers
the 5 bigs, (Sony, BMG, EMI, Universal, and Warner) and their subsidiaries. Any label not owned by one of the three big majors, is an indie label. They use outside distribution. lahblah (knud) wrote in message ... "they're a major indie label." Where does the indie stop and the major start? "I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is the gap between what you say and what you think you have said." -george (paraphrased) |
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#64
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Any label not owned by one of the three big majors, is an indie label.
They use outside distribution. Even if they are distributed by a major. --------------------------------------- "I know enough to know I don't know enough" |
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#65
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Any label not owned by one of the three big majors, is an indie label.
They use outside distribution. Even if they are distributed by a major. --------------------------------------- "I know enough to know I don't know enough" |
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