[Nate Najar]

I have a local gallery space that presents drama, music and art.
They're doing more and more music and I'm being increasingly
involved. I'd like to set up a permanent pro tools situation there
for archival purposes and also possible commercial uses (of the
recordings, not the facility as a recording space). I'm all squared
away in terms of computer, hardware, etc... but i need tan unobtrusive
way to run lines for the rig. The gallery is pretty much a big open
space, usually with art showing of some sort on all the walls. The
administrative offices are upstairs. There is no good space
downstairs to put the rig but there is a perfect location upstairs.
For most presentations, no sound reinforcement is needed, music is
presented acoustically and rarely is an emcee microphone needed
although it does occur occasionally. For that they have a small mixer
and a pair of powered speakers in the truss space.

So what I'm thinking is to get a few splitter boxes for times when
sound reinforcement is needed, and then putting a patch panel in the
wall downstairs and running balanced lines to a patch panel in the
wall upstairs near where I'll locate the DAW. I think 8 xlr and 4 trs
should give me plenty to work with. I'll run a return line over the
trs to a stereo channel on the mixer so any talkback during setups,
etc... can be done right over the house pa system. I'll set up an
ortf pair of josephson c42 (i'm donating the use of my mic collection
since money's tight but i want to do it right the first time)
somewhere in a semi permanent location for main pickup of anything
going on in the room and then spot mic things as they become necessary
depending on the program. I'm going to get a grant to cover the costs
of the equipment but i don't know how much money i can get.

So after that long backstory, my main question is what kind of wire/
cable do I buy to run int eh walls/truss space to go from downstairs
to upstairs? do i just get some gepco "install cable" and run one for
each patch point and bundle them together in the wall? or is there a
multipair cable I should get to run it all? I want something easy to
strip and solder, as that's a lot of soldering- 12 channels balanced
both ways is 72 solder points that i have to do right without cold
joints. ouch!

I won't mix critical things there (the control room situation will be
in the corner of the director's office!) but i can always take the
hard drive home and do things on my rig. I'm going to do an maudio
profire 2626 (i just got one for my home rig)- it sounds really good
for the price and has high functionality and pro tools 8 is nice to
work with for audio. the mic preamps are useable, but when i do my
own music there or if something critical is going on, I'll bring in my
millennia pres.

So the big question is what wire/how do i wire the place up? other
than that, now that you have the whole story, if you have any other
suggestions or input I'd be happy to hear it. thanks!

N

[Mike Rivers]

Nate Najar wrote:

what kind of wire/
cable do I buy to run int eh walls/truss space to go from downstairs
to upstairs? do i just get some gepco "install cable" and run one for
each patch point and bundle them together in the wall? or is there a
multipair cable I should get to run it all?

I'd look for foil shielded multipair cable, more pairs than you need
now, but
don't get unreasonable. If you're really thinking forward, you might want to
consider running digital-capable cable (100 ohm twisted pairs) in case you
should want to run AES/EBU through it some day. Belden 9732 is 9 pairs
with Beldfoil shields, 100 ohm nominal impedance, #24 wire.

If 100 feet is enough for your run and want to save some money and time,
you
might want to look for a used snake. You'll probably need to cut off the
"squid" end
to be able to pull the cable through the wall and then re-solder it in
the "control
room" but you can attach the stage box end to the wall and you'll have your
connectors at the "stage" without a mess.

You might want to check about local ordinances given that this is a public
space. There may be a requirement for cable that has insulation that doesn't
make anything poisonous when it burns, or is flame retardant. Belden's
catalog
is about two inches thick, but if you were to e-mail Steve Lampen, Belden's
friend-of-the-people, at , and tell him your requirements,
he can recommend the best cable for the job, and you can trust his
recommendation.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Arny Krueger]

"Nate Najar" wrote in message


I have a local gallery space that presents drama, music
and art. They're doing more and more music and I'm being
increasingly involved. I'd like to set up a permanent
pro tools situation there for archival purposes and also
possible commercial uses (of the recordings, not the
facility as a recording space). I'm all squared away in
terms of computer, hardware, etc... but i need tan
unobtrusive way to run lines for the rig.


So what I'm thinking is to get a few splitter boxes for
times when sound reinforcement is needed, and then
putting a patch panel in the wall downstairs and running
balanced lines to a patch panel in the wall upstairs near
where I'll locate the DAW.

If by "splitter boxes" you mean audio distribution amplifier, then hold that
thought. DA's are big problem solvers because they isolate the loads from
the sources and provide a common point of control. If you short one output
of a DA, all the others will still work. I've used DAs by Rane and
Behringer, and I wouldn't be without them. Any remote equipment should have
a balanced input, if you want a slam dunk solution to noise pickup. That
can be a pair of transfomers, another DA, a cheap small mixer with balanced
inputs, or whatever.

So after that long backstory, my main question is what
kind of wire/ cable do I buy to run int eh walls/truss
space to go from downstairs to upstairs?

I think you will find that most installers go with standard or plenum grade
2 conductor shielded cable. Belden, West Penn, everybody in the audio game
seriously has something that will work just fine.

do i just get
some gepco "install cable" and run one for each patch
point and bundle them together in the wall?

That is pretty much what you will see in a typical professional
installation. Lots of shielded, twisted pair in bundles.

or is there
a multipair cable I should get to run it all? I want
something easy to strip and solder, as that's a lot of
soldering- 12 channels balanced both ways is 72 solder
points that i have to do right without cold joints.

IME, most cable that is sold for this purpose is designed to be highly
usable. However, if you can't solder in your sleep, you may not find it that
easy to use until you are up to speed.

So the big question is what wire/how do i wire the place
up? other than that, now that you have the whole story,
if you have any other suggestions or input I'd be happy
to hear it. thanks!

Putting cabling into an existing building can be a real head scratcher.
You'll need to understand the insides of the walls and how to bridge rooms
and hallways inconspicuously. If you've got a drop ceiling, then you are
pretty golden, but you'll still have to navigate the walls. Either that or
wiremold and surface-mount boxes. It's not a party, either way.

Common tools - a 50' or 100' wire-pulling snake, hole saws, drywall knives
and saws, rasp, fiberglass wire-pulling wands fro drop ceilings, tie wraps,
cutters, strippers, soldering equipment... You'll probably need to put in
wall boxes designed for existing work and low voltages.

[Don Pearce[_2_]]

On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 08:10:06 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Nate Najar" wrote in message


I have a local gallery space that presents drama, music
and art. They're doing more and more music and I'm being
increasingly involved. I'd like to set up a permanent
pro tools situation there for archival purposes and also
possible commercial uses (of the recordings, not the
facility as a recording space). I'm all squared away in
terms of computer, hardware, etc... but i need tan
unobtrusive way to run lines for the rig.


So what I'm thinking is to get a few splitter boxes for
times when sound reinforcement is needed, and then
putting a patch panel in the wall downstairs and running
balanced lines to a patch panel in the wall upstairs near
where I'll locate the DAW.

If by "splitter boxes" you mean audio distribution amplifier, then hold that
thought. DA's are big problem solvers because they isolate the loads from
the sources and provide a common point of control. If you short one output
of a DA, all the others will still work. I've used DAs by Rane and
Behringer, and I wouldn't be without them. Any remote equipment should have
a balanced input, if you want a slam dunk solution to noise pickup. That
can be a pair of transfomers, another DA, a cheap small mixer with balanced
inputs, or whatever.

So after that long backstory, my main question is what
kind of wire/ cable do I buy to run int eh walls/truss
space to go from downstairs to upstairs?

I think you will find that most installers go with standard or plenum grade
2 conductor shielded cable. Belden, West Penn, everybody in the audio game
seriously has something that will work just fine.

do i just get
some gepco "install cable" and run one for each patch
point and bundle them together in the wall?

That is pretty much what you will see in a typical professional
installation. Lots of shielded, twisted pair in bundles.

or is there
a multipair cable I should get to run it all? I want
something easy to strip and solder, as that's a lot of
soldering- 12 channels balanced both ways is 72 solder
points that i have to do right without cold joints.

IME, most cable that is sold for this purpose is designed to be highly
usable. However, if you can't solder in your sleep, you may not find it that
easy to use until you are up to speed.

So the big question is what wire/how do i wire the place
up? other than that, now that you have the whole story,
if you have any other suggestions or input I'd be happy
to hear it. thanks!

Putting cabling into an existing building can be a real head scratcher.
You'll need to understand the insides of the walls and how to bridge rooms
and hallways inconspicuously. If you've got a drop ceiling, then you are
pretty golden, but you'll still have to navigate the walls. Either that or
wiremold and surface-mount boxes. It's not a party, either way.

Common tools - a 50' or 100' wire-pulling snake, hole saws, drywall knives
and saws, rasp, fiberglass wire-pulling wands fro drop ceilings, tie wraps,
cutters, strippers, soldering equipment... You'll probably need to put in
wall boxes designed for existing work and low voltages.


One more invaluable tool for drop ceilings is a light-pull pistol
crossbow with some blunt weight-ended bolts. One of these will send a
pulling line across a ceiling without having to lift every tile on the
way.

d

[Arny Krueger]

Don Pearce wrote in message
news:498e9625.98045937@localhost

One more invaluable tool for drop ceilings is a
light-pull pistol crossbow with some blunt weight-ended
bolts. One of these will send a pulling line across a
ceiling without having to lift every tile on the way.

In the US I see that we have the Greenlee cable caster for about $60 that
does a similar thing.

I've been pulling communication cables for over 20 years. I used just an
underhand toss and a snake for the first 15 or so. I have never ever had to
lift every tile, even when they were 2' x 4'. My last upgrade was a set of
fiberglass poles.

[Nate Najar]

On Feb 4, 7:54*am, Mike Rivers wrote:


I'd look for foil shielded multipair cable, more pairs than you need
now, but
don't get unreasonable. If you're really thinking forward, you might want to
consider running digital-capable cable (100 ohm twisted pairs) in case you
should want to run AES/EBU through it some day. Belden 9732 is 9 pairs
with Beldfoil shields, 100 ohm nominal impedance, #24 wire.

thanks that makes sense



If 100 feet is enough for your run and want to save some money and time,
you
might want to look for a used snake. You'll probably need to cut off the
"squid" end
to be able to pull the cable through the wall and then re-solder it in
the "control
room" but you can attach the stage box end to the wall and you'll have your
connectors at the "stage" without a mess.



that's a great idea, I think that's probably the winner. I really
only need about 50 feet- I could get a stage snake and mount the box
to the way, cut off the fantail, run the snake to the new location
upstairs and solder the pairs to a wall plate. that cuts the
soldering in half and gives a real clean job. good idea!

thanks for everything everyone,

N