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#1
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PZM mics and pianos
I recently bought a used Milab MP30 PZM mic at low cost....it seems to work
fine, I'm just wondering what it's best application might be in a live recording situation for acoustic music. Perhaps in front of a double bass or cello on the floor, or inside a grand piano ? Does having just the one Milab (as well as a variety of other SD mics) make it unusable for a piano without a twin for stereo, or can it work in conjunction with conventional mics in such a scenario (perhaps as a 'bass end mic') ? Where is the best location for a plate mic.... inside or underneath a piano ? Finally, I've often read of pairs of PZM's being 'taped under the lid' .....but what sort of tape is acceptable to the owner of a high priced Steinway or Yamaha grand.....surely not gaffa ? Imagine the fallout after lifting off even a small chip of lid timber, or leaving residue that's hard to remove ? Does anyone have guidance about attaching PZM's to pianos, since I can't imagine they'd stay still if left to resonate on the frame ? Thanks, Ray |
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#2
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PZM mics and pianos
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#3
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PZM mics and pianos
"Ray Thomas" wrote in message
I recently bought a used Milab MP30 PZM mic at low cost....it seems to work fine, I'm just wondering what it's best application might be in a live recording situation for acoustic music. Perhaps in front of a double bass or cello on the floor, or inside a grand piano ? Does having just the one Milab (as well as a variety of other SD mics) make it unusable for a piano without a twin for stereo, or can it work in conjunction with conventional mics in such a scenario (perhaps as a 'bass end mic') ? Where is the best location for a plate mic.... inside or underneath a piano ? Finally, I've often read of pairs of PZM's being 'taped under the lid' .....but what sort of tape is acceptable to the owner of a high priced Steinway or Yamaha grand.....surely not gaffa ? Imagine the fallout after lifting off even a small chip of lid timber, or leaving residue that's hard to remove ? Does anyone have guidance about attaching PZM's to pianos, since I can't imagine they'd stay still if left to resonate on the frame ? My ancient Shure PZM is taped in place on the underside of the Kawai grand's lid with Scotch industrial-strength double-sided adhesive tape. Right over the middle of the metal frame. The tape came from Staples and is very effective at everything but being removable. I don't know if it will ever be removed. When the piano went in for a thorough rebuild, the mic was left in place. It's been there for at least 5 years. I spent about a year using carpet tape to attach the mic, moving it around for best sound. Carpet tape would start loosening after a few weeks. I eventually found the current attachment point. It takes a ton of parametric eq to make the signal from the PZM have nearly the same tone as the live tone of that piano, but it is worth it the trouble. Right now, all that happens when I boost the gain on the PZM is that it gets louder. All the gain I want and no problems with feedback on that mic. It blends almost perfectly with its natural sound out in the room. |
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#4
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PZM mics and pianos
"Ray Thomas" wrote in message ... I recently bought a used Milab MP30 PZM mic at low cost....it seems to work fine, I'm just wondering what it's best application might be in a live recording situation for acoustic music. Perhaps in front of a double bass or cello on the floor, or inside a grand piano ? Does having just the one Milab (as well as a variety of other SD mics) make it unusable for a piano without a twin for stereo, or can it work in conjunction with conventional mics in such a scenario (perhaps as a 'bass end mic') ? Where is the best location for a plate mic.... inside or underneath a piano ? Finally, I've often read of pairs of PZM's being 'taped under the lid' .....but what sort of tape is acceptable to the owner of a high priced Steinway or Yamaha grand.....surely not gaffa ? Imagine the fallout after lifting off even a small chip of lid timber, or leaving residue that's hard to remove ? Does anyone have guidance about attaching PZM's to pianos, since I can't imagine they'd stay still if left to resonate on the frame ? Thanks, Ray I've used Gaffer's tape on my lacquer finish Yamaha... Never any residue left behind, but the timber is protected by the finish, so I can't comment on the risk of that sort of damage. I've used a single PZMs in the piano in conjunction with a main pair capturing an entire ensemble, to give a bit more clarity/focus to the piano sound and liked the results. I've never liked the sound of PZMs in pianos on their own however. |
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#5
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PZM mics and pianos
Ray Thomas wrote:
I recently bought a used Milab MP30 PZM mic at low cost....it seems to work fine, I'm just wondering what it's best application might be in a live recording situation for acoustic music. Perhaps in front of a double bass or cello on the floor, or inside a grand piano ? Does having just the one Milab (as well as a variety of other SD mics) make it unusable for a piano without a twin for stereo, or can it work in conjunction with conventional mics in such a scenario (perhaps as a 'bass end mic') ? Where is the best location for a plate mic.... inside or underneath a piano ? Finally, I've often read of pairs of PZM's being 'taped under the lid' .....but what sort of tape is acceptable to the owner of a high priced Steinway or Yamaha grand.....surely not gaffa ? Imagine the fallout after lifting off even a small chip of lid timber, or leaving residue that's hard to remove ? Does anyone have guidance about attaching PZM's to pianos, since I can't imagine they'd stay still if left to resonate on the frame ? The way I think about these things is that they exist to deal with slap echo. If you have a performance with a very live stage and you can hear the slap echo coming off the stage making for a boxy sound, putting a pair of PZMs on the stage can deal with the problem. Likewise if you have people around a conference table with a lot of echo from the table, or weird echos from the front of a balcony. I don't like the sound of the PZM taped under a piano lid, but if you want to try it, use a good quality gaff tape like Anchor #22. It won't damage the lacquer on the piano. You can get the little booklet from Crown about PZM applications... I think it's totally over the top and most of their suggestions aren't very good ones, but you can give them a try. There was a huge fad for using PZMs for all kinds of work back in the seventies and I am glad that has finally died down, but they are still useful tools for dealing with echo problems. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#6
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PZM mics and pianos
David Grant wrote:
I've used Gaffer's tape on my lacquer finish Yamaha... Never any residue left behind, but the timber is protected by the finish, so I can't comment on the risk of that sort of damage. It's not all the same. I will sadly say that the "Pro Gaff" brand which a certain DC area festival purchases in bulk is stickier but _will_ turn to goo if left on cables for more than a week or so. The Permacel tape seems to be better than that. For a long time I used to use an Anchor brand tape which was weaker than most gaffer's tape, but which consequently had less chance of damage when removed. Tape Warehouse has stopped carrying that, though. I've used a single PZMs in the piano in conjunction with a main pair capturing an entire ensemble, to give a bit more clarity/focus to the piano sound and liked the results. I've never liked the sound of PZMs in pianos on their own however. The comb filtering on the top end of the PZM gives a sort of airy quality that some people seem to like. I don't really, but that's just me. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#7
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PZM mics and pianos
"Ray Thomas" wrote ...
I recently bought a used Milab MP30 PZM mic at low cost....it seems to work fine, I'm just wondering what it's best application might be in a live recording situation for acoustic music. Perhaps in front of a double bass or cello on the floor, or inside a grand piano ? Does having just the one Milab (as well as a variety of other SD mics) make it unusable for a piano without a twin for stereo, or can it work in conjunction with conventional mics in such a scenario (perhaps as a 'bass end mic') ? Where is the best location for a plate mic.... inside or underneath a piano ? Finally, I've often read of pairs of PZM's being 'taped under the lid' ..... This seems to be the fate of the PZM fad. A "solution" in search of a problem. They are *indispensible* in very particular applications, and ridiculous in most others. The very embodiment of a "one-trick-pony". Perhaps the most ridiculous I saw early in the fad era was an outdoor orchestra concert where the sound guys put up a couple of huge lighting stands and suspended 4-foot square pieces of plexiglas with a Crown PZM mic in the center. I can't imagine what they thought they were benefitting from it. But then the wind picked up and brought one of the plexi pieces down like a spinning war kite. They were lucky it didn't decapitate someone in the audience. but what sort of tape is acceptable to the owner of a high priced Steinway or Yamaha grand.....surely not gaffa ? Genuine gaffer's tape (where did this word "gaffa" came from?) is purposely made with lower-tac adhesive so that it will NOT harm the surfaces it is stuck to. The modern product was invented many decades ago for Hollywood productions and they use it by the mile for everything. It is available in dozens of colors and it is always handy to keep some black, white, gray, and yellow (for safety marking, etc.) on hand. Not everything that claims to be "gaffer's tape" (or "gaffa") is the real thing. And it bears only the slightest resemblance to any kind of "duct tape" that you would find at a hardware or home improvement store. If you don't have a vendor in your area that rents lights, stands and other serious production equipment (not a "party supply" place), then buy gaffer's tape online from a reputable vendor who specializes in real production supplies for professionals. If there is any doubt about your tape and a sensitive surface (such as a piano, etc.) it is prudent to test the tape performance on some hidden area where possible damage won't be significant. |
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#8
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PZM mics and pianos
On Feb 3, 11:53*am, "Richard Crowley" wrote:
"Ray Thomas" wrote ... I recently bought a used Milab MP30 PZM mic at low cost....it seems to work fine, I'm just wondering what it's best application might be in a live recording situation for acoustic music. Perhaps in front of a double bass or cello on the floor, or inside a grand piano ? Does having just the one Milab (as well as a variety of other SD mics) *make it unusable for a piano without a twin for stereo, or can it work in conjunction with conventional mics in such a scenario (perhaps as a 'bass end mic') ? *Where is the best location for a plate mic.... inside or underneath a piano ? *Finally, I've often read of pairs of PZM's being 'taped under the lid' ..... This seems to be the fate of the PZM fad. A "solution" in search of a problem. They are *indispensible* in very particular applications, and ridiculous in most others. The very embodiment of a "one-trick-pony". Perhaps the most ridiculous I saw early in the fad era was an outdoor orchestra concert where the sound guys put up a couple of huge lighting stands and suspended 4-foot square pieces of plexiglas with a Crown PZM mic in the center. *I can't imagine what they thought they were benefitting from it. But then the wind picked up and brought one of the plexi pieces down like a spinning war kite. They were lucky it didn't decapitate someone in the audience. but what sort of tape is acceptable to the owner of a high priced Steinway or Yamaha grand.....surely not gaffa ? Genuine gaffer's tape (where did this word "gaffa" came from?) is purposely made with lower-tac adhesive so that it will NOT harm the surfaces it is stuck to. The modern product was invented many decades ago for Hollywood productions and they use it by the mile for everything. It is available in dozens of colors and it is always handy to keep some black, white, gray, and yellow (for safety marking, etc.) on hand. Not everything that claims to be "gaffer's tape" (or "gaffa") is the real thing. *And it bears only the slightest resemblance to any kind of "duct tape" that you would find at a hardware or home improvement store. *If you don't have a vendor in your area that rents lights, stands and other serious production equipment (not a "party supply" place), then buy gaffer's tape online from a reputable vendor who specializes in real production supplies for professionals. If there is any doubt about your tape and a sensitive surface (such as a piano, etc.) it is prudent to test the tape performance on some hidden area where possible damage won't be significant. As long as we are on the subject, i have a question about PZM mics. I think I understand the concept, the mic is placed at the boundry where the incident and reflected wave can combine contructivley and that eliminates and comb filtering or echo from the reflection from the boundry. My question is about pickup of vibration of the boundry, i.e in the case of the piano, the lid will certainly vibrate, does the PCM mic respond to the vibration.. In another case, on a stage, you want the mic to pick up the incidnet and reflected waves of the voices, but what about the vibration from foot noise conducted through the stage. Is a PZM mic mounted on a stage designed somehow like a standard mic on a stand designed to be isolated from the vibrations of the base (stand) it is mounted upon? Mark |
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#9
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PZM mics and pianos
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#10
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PZM mics and pianos
wrote:
I think I understand the concept, the mic is placed at the boundry where the incident and reflected wave can combine contructivley and that eliminates and comb filtering or echo from the reflection from the boundry. My question is about pickup of vibration of the boundry, i.e in the case of the piano, the lid will certainly vibrate, does the PCM mic respond to the vibration.. Yes, and not only THAT, but the rest of the signal is slightly frequency-modulated by the vibration. Vibration pickup in microphones is bad! In another case, on a stage, you want the mic to pick up the incidnet and reflected waves of the voices, but what about the vibration from foot noise conducted through the stage. Is a PZM mic mounted on a stage designed somehow like a standard mic on a stand designed to be isolated from the vibrations of the base (stand) it is mounted upon? No, that would defeat the whole PZM thing. You can put it on a sheet of rubber for isolation, but the only real solution is a solid stage with a lot of mass. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#11
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PZM mics and pianos
GregS wrote:
I was just thinking about a case where a PZM element is in a corner. Its at the intersection of 3 boundries. It ceases to be a PZM in that case. It's something else.. and Crown actually sold a microphone built with three boundaries into a corner in the early days although I forget what they call it. Sure the mic will vibrate, but it should be isolated somewhat and the plate itself should be isolated somewhat. And the boundary effect is dramatically increased over a microphone on a single panel. I never made a test, but it would seem a PZM is directional, at least front to back when used with a plate, but it seems to me there is also a sensitivity to angle ?? When sounds are arriving in phase at 90 degrees from center of the plate its at peak ?? There isn't supposed to be, but there is a change in the comb filtering as you move on and off-axis. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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#13
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PZM mics and pianos
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#14
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PZM mics and pianos
On Feb 3, 7:33 am, "Ray Thomas" wrote:
I recently bought a used Milab MP30 PZM mic at low cost....it seems to work fine, I'm just wondering what it's best application might be in a live recording situation for acoustic music. Perhaps in front of a double bass or cello on the floor, or inside a grand piano ? Does having just the one Milab (as well as a variety of other SD mics) make it unusable for a piano without a twin for stereo, or can it work in conjunction with conventional mics in such a scenario (perhaps as a 'bass end mic') ? Where is the best location for a plate mic.... inside or underneath a piano ? Finally, I've often read of pairs of PZM's being 'taped under the lid' .....but what sort of tape is acceptable to the owner of a high priced Steinway or Yamaha grand.....surely not gaffa ? Imagine the fallout after lifting off even a small chip of lid timber, or leaving residue that's hard to remove ? Does anyone have guidance about attaching PZM's to pianos, since I can't imagine they'd stay still if left to resonate on the frame ? Thanks, Ray Permacel Gaffer's tape comes off easily, and no rental company I've heard of has ever bitched here in NY about using it on their pianos. I have the same Milab PZM as you, and a good application is also in front of a kick drum as a second mic. I have used it on a piano lid, but you do need to add a bit of EQ sometimes. But DPA makes these little magnetic mounts for some it's miniature omni mics that attach inside the piano and I think that for jazz piano that's one of the sounds I've been most happy with - even for live sound. BTW, I always remove all tape from instruments, mic stands and cables after a gig. Tape left on mic cables, that can get messy and is my second typical complaint about equipment handling, right after people who "over" when they should have "undered" (you have to wrap cables like a lariat rope.) Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#15
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PZM mics and pianos
"WillStG" wrote in message ... On Feb 3, 7:33 am, "Ray Thomas" wrote: I recently bought a used Milab MP30 PZM mic at low cost....it seems to work fine, I'm just wondering what it's best application might be in a live recording situation for acoustic music. Perhaps in front of a double bass or cello on the floor, or inside a grand piano ? Does having just the one Milab (as well as a variety of other SD mics) make it unusable for a piano without a twin for stereo, or can it work in conjunction with conventional mics in such a scenario (perhaps as a 'bass end mic') ? Where is the best location for a plate mic.... inside or underneath a piano ? Finally, I've often read of pairs of PZM's being 'taped under the lid' .....but what sort of tape is acceptable to the owner of a high priced Steinway or Yamaha grand.....surely not gaffa ? Imagine the fallout after lifting off even a small chip of lid timber, or leaving residue that's hard to remove ? Does anyone have guidance about attaching PZM's to pianos, since I can't imagine they'd stay still if left to resonate on the frame ? Thanks, Ray Permacel Gaffer's tape comes off easily, and no rental company I've heard of has ever bitched here in NY about using it on their pianos. I have the same Milab PZM as you, and a good application is also in front of a kick drum as a second mic. I have used it on a piano lid, but you do need to add a bit of EQ sometimes. But DPA makes these little magnetic mounts for some it's miniature omni mics that attach inside the piano and I think that for jazz piano that's one of the sounds I've been most happy with - even for live sound. BTW, I always remove all tape from instruments, mic stands and cables after a gig. Tape left on mic cables, that can get messy and is my second typical complaint about equipment handling, right after people who "over" when they should have "undered" (you have to wrap cables like a lariat rope.) Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits Thanks Will (and everyone else for your replies) I'd forgotten about the kick drum capability, and about the radical eq-ing often needed to get these devices to sound good. I'll try for the good quality, but low-medium stick tape....and rest assured I won't be leaving the mic attached there, even 5 mins longer than the end of the concert ! I'm sure it's also a reasonable room ambience mic...and of course would excel at conference table pickup ? Ray |
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#16
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PZM mics and pianos
In article ,
"Ray Thomas" wrote: I recently bought a used Milab MP30 PZM mic at low cost....it seems to work fine, I'm just wondering what it's best application might be in a live recording situation for acoustic music. Perhaps in front of a double bass or cello on the floor, or inside a grand piano ? Does having just the one Milab (as well as a variety of other SD mics) make it unusable for a piano without a twin for stereo, or can it work in conjunction with conventional mics in such a scenario (perhaps as a 'bass end mic') ? Where is the best location for a plate mic.... inside or underneath a piano ? Finally, I've often read of pairs of PZM's being 'taped under the lid' .....but what sort of tape is acceptable to the owner of a high priced Steinway or Yamaha grand.....surely not gaffa ? Imagine the fallout after lifting off even a small chip of lid timber, or leaving residue that's hard to remove ? Does anyone have guidance about attaching PZM's to pianos, since I can't imagine they'd stay still if left to resonate on the frame ? Thanks, Ray My advice would be to avoid the pzm for piano, unless you have no other choice. My Crown PZM's were not cheap, and I never liked their high end on our grand piano. I'd use them in a live concert venue 'tho. I pretty much only use a PZM for a room sound these days. Stick it on a wall with a loud guitar amp in the room to capture some natural ambience. David Correia www.Celebrationsound.com |
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#17
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PZM mics and pianos
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:12:28 -0500, david correia
wrote: My advice would be to avoid the pzm for piano, unless you have no other choice. My Crown PZM's were not cheap, and I never liked their high end on our grand piano. I think they're often used in positions where they're thought to LOOK good, without too much thought of whether it's appropriate. "Oh look, that piano's got a big flat wooden surface. You mount PZM's on big flat surfaces, don't you?" |
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#18
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PZM mics and pianos
On Feb 4, 5:46 am, Laurence Payne wrote:
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 01:12:28 -0500, david correia wrote: My advice would be to avoid the pzm for piano, unless you have no other choice. My Crown PZM's were not cheap, and I never liked their high end on our grand piano. I think they're often used in positions where they're thought to LOOK good, without too much thought of whether it's appropriate. "Oh look, that piano's got a big flat wooden surface. You mount PZM's on big flat surfaces, don't you?" Well if you ever have to record drums in a small drumbooth or a room with a really low ceiling, PZM's are great because the boundary surface receives the least amount of reflections. But if you have one on the floor for the kick and two on the ceiling, reverse polarity on the kick or you'll have a mess. Will Miho MY TV/Audio Posat/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#19
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PZM mics and pianos
In article , (Don Pearce) wrote:
On 3 Feb 2009 14:54:40 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: I was just thinking about a case where a PZM element is in a corner. Its at the intersection of 3 boundries. It ceases to be a PZM in that case. It's something else.. and Crown actually sold a microphone built with three boundaries into a corner in the early days although I forget what they call it. No, it actually becomes a true PZM. A standard PZM on a flat surface is only in the pressure zone for waves approaching normal to the surface. For waves approaching from the side it is effectively a normal mic, and can even be made with directivity, using the velocity as well as the pressure. Once you are in a corner, pressure is all you have. I was thinking after I made the comment. A mic in the corner gets multiple (3) bounces at high frequencies. In my mind, a PZM is trying to eliminate bounces as much as possible. greg |
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#20
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PZM mics and pianos
wrote in message
As long as we are on the subject, i have a question about PZM mics. I think I understand the concept, the mic is placed at the boundary where the incident and reflected wave can combine constructively and that eliminates and comb filtering or echo from the reflection from the boundary. So goes the advocate's story, My question is about pickup of vibration of the boundary, i.e in the case of the piano, the lid will certainly vibrate, does the PZM mic respond to the vibration.. To some degree, yes. However, you have to consider what a piano case is. It is a big minimally-resonant, minimally-absorptive, minimally-transmittive box that has an open bottom and a top that you open and shut to adjust the sound. While not free of vibration, the case is not vibrating a lot. In another case, on a stage, you want the mic to pick up the incident and reflected waves of the voices, but what about the vibration from foot noise conducted through the stage. To a large degree yes. If you search around, you will find that picking up footfalls is supposedly one of their strengths. Obviously not so much a strength if you don't want to pick up the sound of foot falls, which is the more usual situation. Is a PZM mic mounted on a stage designed somehow like a standard mic on a stand designed to be isolated from the vibrations of the base (stand) it is mounted upon? IME, not often. |
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#21
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PZM mics and pianos
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:07:07 GMT, (GregS)
wrote: In article , (Don Pearce) wrote: On 3 Feb 2009 14:54:40 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: I was just thinking about a case where a PZM element is in a corner. Its at the intersection of 3 boundries. It ceases to be a PZM in that case. It's something else.. and Crown actually sold a microphone built with three boundaries into a corner in the early days although I forget what they call it. No, it actually becomes a true PZM. A standard PZM on a flat surface is only in the pressure zone for waves approaching normal to the surface. For waves approaching from the side it is effectively a normal mic, and can even be made with directivity, using the velocity as well as the pressure. Once you are in a corner, pressure is all you have. I was thinking after I made the comment. A mic in the corner gets multiple (3) bounces at high frequencies. In my mind, a PZM is trying to eliminate bounces as much as possible. greg No, a mic in a corner doesn't get any bounces - there is no surface facing it as a mirror. d |
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#22
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PZM mics and pianos
On Feb 4, 3:00*pm, (Don Pearce) wrote:
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:07:07 GMT, (GregS) wrote: In article , (Don Pearce) wrote: On 3 Feb 2009 14:54:40 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: I was just thinking about a case where aPZMelement is in a corner. Its at the intersection of 3 boundries. It ceases to be aPZMin that case. *It's something else.. and Crown actually sold a microphone built with three boundaries into a corner in the early days although I forget what they call it. No, it actually becomes a truePZM. A standardPZMon a flat surface is only in the pressure zone for waves approaching normal to the surface. For waves approaching from the side it is effectively a normal mic, and can even be made with directivity, using the velocity as well as the pressure. Once you are in a corner, pressure is all you have. I was thinking after I made the comment. A mic in the corner gets multiple (3) bounces at high frequencies. In my mind, aPZMis trying to eliminate bounces as much as possible. greg No, a mic in a corner doesn't get any bounces - there is no surface facing it as a mirror. d My newsreader can NOT handle this post, using Google. I was referring to a high frequency skip over 90 degrees. If the sound source is near a wall, its going to first go direct, then the later bounce from the wall. at least I have a word spell check here !!!! greg |
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#23
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PZM mics and pianos
On Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:13:30 -0800 (PST), G wrote:
On Feb 4, 3:00*pm, (Don Pearce) wrote: On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:07:07 GMT, (GregS) wrote: In article , (Don Pearce) wrote: On 3 Feb 2009 14:54:40 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote: I was just thinking about a case where aPZMelement is in a corner. Its at the intersection of 3 boundries. It ceases to be aPZMin that case. *It's something else.. and Crown actually sold a microphone built with three boundaries into a corner in the early days although I forget what they call it. No, it actually becomes a truePZM. A standardPZMon a flat surface is only in the pressure zone for waves approaching normal to the surface. For waves approaching from the side it is effectively a normal mic, and can even be made with directivity, using the velocity as well as the pressure. Once you are in a corner, pressure is all you have. I was thinking after I made the comment. A mic in the corner gets multiple (3) bounces at high frequencies. In my mind, aPZMis trying to eliminate bounces as much as possible. greg No, a mic in a corner doesn't get any bounces - there is no surface facing it as a mirror. d My newsreader can NOT handle this post, using Google. Normally I don't see posts from Google, but I am not on my usual PC so I don't have my filters in. Use a proper news service and all will be well. I was referring to a high frequency skip over 90 degrees. If the sound source is near a wall, its going to first go direct, then the later bounce from the wall. The mic is flush to all three walls - sound can not bounce off any wall and hit the mic. at least I have a word spell check here !!!! I'm glad to hear it, but what are you talking about? d -- Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
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#24
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PZM mics and pianos
In article
, WillStG wrote: Well if you ever have to record drums in a small drumbooth or a room with a really low ceiling, PZM's are great because the boundary surface receives the least amount of reflections. But if you have one on the floor for the kick and two on the ceiling, reverse polarity on the kick or you'll have a mess. Will Miho MY TV/Audio Posat/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits Actually, you won't know whether you should flip the polarity until you flip it and listen. And if you are working with drums, you'd better check every mic. I use the kick as the phase standard. And typically my overheads get flipped. It gets real interesting with double mic-ing some of the toms ; You'll be amazed when all that bottom shows up with no eq. Will's reminder is a valuable one. And it's a necessity whether you're in a small room or a big one. *Always check the polarity of any instrument that you use more than on mic on!* If you don't have pre's with them, buy some xlr adapters that will do it. http://www.fullcompass.com/product/300349.html I'd say this 7 bucks is the best value in the world of recording that I can think of if you don't have any polarity/phase buttons on your mic pre's. David Correia www.Celebrationsound.com |
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#26
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PZM mics and pianos
I'd say this 7 bucks is the best value in the world of recording that I can think of if you don't have any polarity/phase buttons on your mic pre's. (or a phase flip feature in your DAW software) |
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#27
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PZM mics and pianos
On Feb 4, 4:15 pm, david correia wrote:
Actually, you won't know whether you should flip the polarity until you flip it and listen. And if you are working with drums, you'd better check every mic. I use the kick as the phase standard. And typically my overheads get flipped. It gets real interesting with double mic-ing some of the toms ; You'll be amazed when all that bottom shows up with no eq. Well generally I think the fewer mics the better. And I guess it depends somewhat on whether you start with the overheads and use the kick mic to fill in, or if you build the drum kit sound from the kick up. For live sound I always have to start from the kick up, but for some TV and Recording situations I have often gotten a better sound with 1 to 4 kit mics then I ever did with 8-10, and it's a lot faster too, I had a lot of difficulty learning to get a good drum kit sound, probably because I started with spot micing without the foundation of knowing what a single mic moved around the room sounded like. And I was observing some pretty good engineers too, documenting exact placement of gear in the room, where mics were, etc.. In retrospect it would likely have saved me a lot of learning time had I started with minimalist techniques first, but maybe that's just me, some kids today have a great sense of what good sound is coming in. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#28
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PZM mics and pianos
On Wed, 04 Feb 2009 03:01:30 GMT, Chris Hornbeck
wrote: On Tue, 3 Feb 2009 09:53:01 -0800 (PST), wrote: My question is about pickup of vibration of the boundry, i.e in the case of the piano, the lid will certainly vibrate, does the PCM mic respond to the vibration.. You have provided a very useful input to Ethan's "woody" thread. Maybe two surfaces' responses to an acoustic impulse could be compared by sticking a PZM on each and firing away. Some big, bad, repeatable acoustic impulse like the Don Pearce device is probably the minimum that would give usable results, and even that might well prove iffy. But as Woody Allen said in _Annie Hall_ "I'm starting to have very mixed feelings about this." Much thanks, as always, Chris Hornbeck Big and bad is so true. In the end I made the electrodes from a couple of steel dressmaking pins for longevity. Here's what six impulses has so far done to them: http://81.174.169.10/odds/electrodes.jpg d |
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#29
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PZM mics and pianos
In article ,
"David Grant" wrote: I'd say this 7 bucks is the best value in the world of recording that I can think of if you don't have any polarity/phase buttons on your mic pre's. (or a phase flip feature in your DAW software) Yes, a great feature after the fact. But in Protools at least, you gotta open a plugin to do that, which adds a bit of delay whether flipped or not. It's tiny but too often for my tastes I can hear it. Try it with 2 mics on an acoustic guitar. Of course you can add the same plug to 2 channels, but it's a pita for every drumkit mic while tracking. And even if you're running an HD system, the client may hear and be affected by this delay. I never print tracks using plug ins. I use outboard gear, which I prefer anyway. David Correia www.Celebrationsound.com |
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#30
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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PZM mics and pianos
In article
, WillStG wrote: On Feb 4, 4:15 pm, david correia wrote: Actually, you won't know whether you should flip the polarity until you flip it and listen. And if you are working with drums, you'd better check every mic. I use the kick as the phase standard. And typically my overheads get flipped. It gets real interesting with double mic-ing some of the toms ; You'll be amazed when all that bottom shows up with no eq. Well generally I think the fewer mics the better. And I guess it depends somewhat on whether you start with the overheads and use the kick mic to fill in, or if you build the drum kit sound from the kick up. For live sound I always have to start from the kick up, but for some TV and Recording situations I have often gotten a better sound with 1 to 4 kit mics then I ever did with 8-10, and it's a lot faster too, I had a lot of difficulty learning to get a good drum kit sound, probably because I started with spot micing without the foundation of knowing what a single mic moved around the room sounded like. And I was observing some pretty good engineers too, documenting exact placement of gear in the room, where mics were, etc.. In retrospect it would likely have saved me a lot of learning time had I started with minimalist techniques first, but maybe that's just me, some kids today have a great sense of what good sound is coming in. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits Documenting what mics and where is a good start. But the whole wonderful thing about drum sounds are 3 very independent variables: the kit itself, the drummer, and the room. (The 4th variable is the skill and gear of the engineer.) The *exact* kit, room, and mic set up with a second drummer will sound quite different. Which is why it takes years to conquer recording rock/pop drums. The problem with minimal mic-ing is what do you do if, while you're mixing, the client says he/she wants a little more floor tom. And how about a little less bottom on one of the rack toms? And maybe a little more hat. And can your turn down those overheads a bit ... ; I always tell budding engineers - and they think I'm kidding - if they want great drum sounds, they should hire great drummers with great kits who have lots of studio experience. Drummers are like vocalists. They make noise. What you want is people that make really good sounding noise. David Correia www.Celebrationsound.com |
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#31
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PZM mics and pianos
(or a phase flip feature in your DAW software) Yes, a great feature after the fact. But in Protools at least, you gotta open a plugin to do that, which adds a bit of delay whether flipped or not. It's tiny but too often for my tastes I can hear it. Try it with 2 mics on an acoustic guitar. Never used Protools, but Cubase has a phase flip switch on each channel in the mixer, so it certainly doesn't hamper workflow in that sense. |
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#32
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PZM mics and pianos
We use black paper tape for mics on instruments--like what painters
use but more expensive and black. Leaves surfaces unharmed. Beware of gaffer or duct tape especially if the tape is left on for long (days) or gets hot. There was a period in which I did a lot of piano recording with PZMs under the lid (closed). Good for isolation--wasn't ever very happy with the sound. We also used them for many years as "air" and "floor" mics in group discussions with people sitting in bleachers. Helpful, low profile, wouldn't have used them if I could have gotten something else in the shot. Also use them for a long time as crowd mics (taped to walls) and as live theatre mics (taped to lip of the stage). The walls often weren't where I wanted the mics to be, so we don't do that anymore, but the stage lip thing still works very well. The major use I have for PZMs now (now Sanken Cub-1s) is as plant mics in cars--for which they are THE BOMB. Best sounding car-interior dialog I've ever done. Also useful (though much less so) as low-profile instrument mics where mics can't be seen. I think the PZM fad is well over, in general. Philip Perkins |
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#33
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PZM mics and pianos
On Feb 7, 1:37 pm, david correia wrote:
In article , WillStG wrote: On Feb 4, 4:15 pm, david correia wrote: Actually, you won't know whether you should flip the polarity until you flip it and listen. And if you are working with drums, you'd better check every mic. I use the kick as the phase standard. And typically my overheads get flipped. It gets real interesting with double mic-ing some of the toms ; You'll be amazed when all that bottom shows up with no eq. Well generally I think the fewer mics the better. And I guess it depends somewhat on whether you start with the overheads and use the kick mic to fill in, or if you build the drum kit sound from the kick up. For live sound I always have to start from the kick up, but for some TV and Recording situations I have often gotten a better sound with 1 to 4 kit mics then I ever did with 8-10, and it's a lot faster too, I had a lot of difficulty learning to get a good drum kit sound, probably because I started with spot micing without the foundation of knowing what a single mic moved around the room sounded like. And I was observing some pretty good engineers too, documenting exact placement of gear in the room, where mics were, etc.. In retrospect it would likely have saved me a lot of learning time had I started with minimalist techniques first, but maybe that's just me, some kids today have a great sense of what good sound is coming in. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits Documenting what mics and where is a good start. But the whole wonderful thing about drum sounds are 3 very independent variables: the kit itself, the drummer, and the room. (The 4th variable is the skill and gear of the engineer.) The *exact* kit, room, and mic set up with a second drummer will sound quite different. Which is why it takes years to conquer recording rock/pop drums. The problem with minimal mic-ing is what do you do if, while you're mixing, the client says he/she wants a little more floor tom. And how about a little less bottom on one of the rack toms? And maybe a little more hat. And can your turn down those overheads a bit ... ; I always tell budding engineers - and they think I'm kidding - if they want great drum sounds, they should hire great drummers with great kits who have lots of studio experience. Drummers are like vocalists. They make noise. What you want is people that make really good sounding noise. David Correiawww.Celebrationsound.com Well I multimic when recording but use as few faders as possible. You can always bring in the spot. And you have to pay attention to the direction the mics are facing of course. That little bit of out phase you might get from one mic could add up to a whole lot of slosh when stretched out over a whole kit. Minimalist micing (or listening?) does help you to figure out what's going on with all that a little more clearly though. Will Miho NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy "The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits |
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#34
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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PZM mics and pianos
In article
, WillStG wrote: That little bit of out phase you might get from one mic could add up to a whole lot of slosh when stretched out over a whole kit. Minimalist micing (or listening?) does help you to figure out what's going on with all that a little more clearly though. Proper phase means the whole kit. It's one instrument. Lotsa mics but one instrument. The phase reference is always listening with the other mics. That's why I said it gets hairy when you double mic a tom. I was taught to capture real bottom when recording drums with mic placement and phase and tuning the drums - not eq. I think it's fun actually. And sure, I will add bottom with eq if I need to. You build it slowly. For me, first the kick (never reversed, it will be the standard), then overheads to the kick, then snare to oh and k, then room mics to k,oh,s, then each tom to k,oh,s,room. I usually do the hat last. I wouldn't want to have to record a drumkit without having a phase reverse on every pre. It makes a *huge* difference. One very, very simple button. Sometimes my jaw drops when I press it. David Correia www.Celebrationsound.com |
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