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William Eckle
 
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Default Biwiring ?

The following is a statement by Robert Harley in the current issue of
"The Perfect Vision".
Quote:

Connecting your speakers with two runs of loudspeaker cable
(if your speakers have two sets of input terminals) provides
a small but significant improvement in sound quality.
One pair of the speaker's input terminals is connected to the
woofer,and the other pair to the midrange and tweeter (or just the
tweeter in a two-way speaker). In a bi-wired system, the power
amplifier "sees" a higher impedance on the tweeter cable at low
frequencies and a lower impedance at high frequencies. The opposite is
true on the woofer half of the bi-wired pair. This causes the signal
to be split up, with high frequencies traveling mostly in the cable
driving the tweeter circuit, and low frequencies conduced by the pair
connected to the loudspeaker's woofer circuit. This frequency
splitting reduces magnetic interaction in the cable, resulting in
better sound.
If you have the ability to bi-wire, it's worth the cost of an extra
run of speaker cable. You can buy bi-wired cables with a single pair
of terminations on the amplifier end and dual termination pairs on the
speaker end. Be sure to remove the "jumpers" that connect the
pairs of speaker input terminal.
Unquote.

Is this true about the amp seeing the differences in impedance ?
And is it audible ?

-=Bill Eckle=-

Vanity Web Page at:
http://www.wmeckle.com
  #2   Report Post  
Gene Poon
 
Posts: n/a
Default

William Eckle wrote:

The following is a statement by Robert Harley in the current issue of
"The Perfect Vision".
Quote:

Connecting your speakers with two runs of loudspeaker cable
(if your speakers have two sets of input terminals) provides
a small but significant improvement in sound quality.
One pair of the speaker's input terminals is connected to the
woofer,and the other pair to the midrange and tweeter (or just the
tweeter in a two-way speaker). In a bi-wired system, the power
amplifier "sees" a higher impedance on the tweeter cable at low
frequencies and a lower impedance at high frequencies. The opposite is
true on the woofer half of the bi-wired pair. This causes the signal
to be split up, with high frequencies traveling mostly in the cable
driving the tweeter circuit, and low frequencies conduced by the pair
connected to the loudspeaker's woofer circuit. This frequency
splitting reduces magnetic interaction in the cable, resulting in
better sound.
If you have the ability to bi-wire, it's worth the cost of an extra
run of speaker cable. You can buy bi-wired cables with a single pair
of terminations on the amplifier end and dual termination pairs on the
speaker end. Be sure to remove the "jumpers" that connect the
pairs of speaker input terminal.
Unquote.

Is this true about the amp seeing the differences in impedance ?
And is it audible ?

================================

To me the key paragraph, where all the important information in this
post is found, is:

One pair of the speaker's input terminals is connected to the
woofer,and the other pair to the midrange and tweeter (or just the
tweeter in a two-way speaker). In a bi-wired system, the power
amplifier "sees" a higher impedance on the tweeter cable at low
frequencies and a lower impedance at high frequencies. The opposite is
true on the woofer half of the bi-wired pair. This causes the signal
to be split up, with high frequencies traveling mostly in the cable
driving the tweeter circuit, and low frequencies conduced by the pair
connected to the loudspeaker's woofer circuit. This frequency
splitting reduces magnetic interaction in the cable, resulting in
better sound.


================================================== ===

Up to the last sentence, it's all true, assuming a passive crossover in
the loudspeaker that actually behaves as described (not all of them do).
That last sentence is the one where unproven assumptions are used by
Mr. Harley to come to a conclusion. Those assumptions include the
actual existence of magnetic interaction, its amount, and the true,
audible effect of such "interaction."

Acceptance of those assumptions results in Mr. Harley's recommendation,
where he makes a value judgment that rightfully belongs to the buyer:
"If you have the ability to bi-wire, it's worth the cost of an extra run
of speaker cable." Given the price of speaker cable that Harley's
magazine would recommend, I'd find the money better spent on more
software...that is, more music to listen to; at the price of that wire,
a LOT more music. But that's MY value judgment.

-GP
  #3   Report Post  
Uptown Audio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Biwiring ?

Great response and absolutely true in most respects. It is still your
opinion that differs from the authors here as neither of you have
presented evidence to support your assertions. I do mean conclusive
evidence as we have all heard enough evidence to gag a maggot. One
thing that I think everyone agrres on is that it does lower the
resistance figures by nearly half. That may or may not be significant
depending upon the associated equipment and of course the hearing
ability of the listener. In general, I don't recommend its use either.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Gene Poon" wrote in message
...
William Eckle wrote:

The following is a statement by Robert Harley in the current issue
of
"The Perfect Vision".
Quote:

Connecting your speakers with two runs of loudspeaker cable
(if your speakers have two sets of input terminals) provides a
small but significant improvement in sound quality.
One pair of the speaker's input terminals is connected to the
woofer,and the other pair to the midrange and tweeter (or just the
tweeter in a two-way speaker). In a bi-wired system, the power
amplifier "sees" a higher impedance on the tweeter cable at low
frequencies and a lower impedance at high frequencies. The opposite
is
true on the woofer half of the bi-wired pair. This causes the
signal
to be split up, with high frequencies traveling mostly in the cable
driving the tweeter circuit, and low frequencies conduced by the
pair
connected to the loudspeaker's woofer circuit. This frequency
splitting reduces magnetic interaction in the cable, resulting in
better sound.
If you have the ability to bi-wire, it's worth the cost of an
extra
run of speaker cable. You can buy bi-wired cables with a single
pair
of terminations on the amplifier end and dual termination pairs on
the
speaker end. Be sure to remove the "jumpers" that connect the
pairs of speaker input terminal.
Unquote.
Is this true about the amp seeing the differences in impedance ?
And is it audible ?

================================

To me the key paragraph, where all the important information in this
post is found, is:

One pair of the speaker's input terminals is connected to the
woofer,and the other pair to the midrange and tweeter (or just the
tweeter in a two-way speaker). In a bi-wired system, the power
amplifier "sees" a higher impedance on the tweeter cable at low
frequencies and a lower impedance at high frequencies. The
opposite is
true on the woofer half of the bi-wired pair. This causes the
signal
to be split up, with high frequencies traveling mostly in the
cable
driving the tweeter circuit, and low frequencies conduced by the
pair
connected to the loudspeaker's woofer circuit. This frequency
splitting reduces magnetic interaction in the cable, resulting in
better sound.


================================================== ===

Up to the last sentence, it's all true, assuming a passive crossover
in the loudspeaker that actually behaves as described (not all of
them do). That last sentence is the one where unproven assumptions
are used by Mr. Harley to come to a conclusion. Those assumptions
include the actual existence of magnetic interaction, its amount,
and the true, audible effect of such "interaction."

Acceptance of those assumptions results in Mr. Harley's
recommendation, where he makes a value judgment that rightfully
belongs to the buyer: "If you have the ability to bi-wire, it's
worth the cost of an extra run of speaker cable." Given the price
of speaker cable that Harley's magazine would recommend, I'd find
the money better spent on more software...that is, more music to
listen to; at the price of that wire, a LOT more music. But that's
MY value judgment.

-GP


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mp
 
Posts: n/a
Default Biwiring ?

Uptown Audio wrote:

Great response and absolutely true in most respects. It is still your
opinion that differs from the authors here as neither of you have
presented evidence to support your assertions. I do mean conclusive
evidence as we have all heard enough evidence to gag a maggot. One
thing that I think everyone agrres on is that it does lower the
resistance figures by nearly half. That may or may not be significant
depending upon the associated equipment and of course the hearing
ability of the listener. In general, I don't recommend its use either.



Not "in general"? What about, specifically?


In fine, one cannot discount psychological factors. If the typical naive
audiophile feels some satisfaction after he has spent, say, $400 for a set
of the latest and greatest Loge FireMusic cables from Valhalla labs (or
possibly even laid out twice that for the Wotan series), then such a person
can probably be convinced that doubling his investment will produce more
(but likely not twice as much) satisfaction. And there are those with more
money than sense who will not only go for it, but feel good about the
purchase.


But if bi-wiring is such a good thing, then why stop with just two runs.
Why not tri, or quad wiring?


Years ago, when Noel Lee walked into his first "high end" store with a roll
of rather large diameter, but pretty, orange OEM cable, who could have
guessed it would come to this?


mp
  #5   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Biwiring ?

"Uptown Audio" wrote in message
...
Great response and absolutely true in most respects. It is still your
opinion that differs from the authors here as neither of you have
presented evidence to support your assertions. I do mean conclusive
evidence as we have all heard enough evidence to gag a maggot. One
thing that I think everyone agrres on is that it does lower the
resistance figures by nearly half. That may or may not be significant
depending upon the associated equipment and of course the hearing
ability of the listener. In general, I don't recommend its use either.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250


Bi-wiring doesn't "lower the resistance figures by half." In fact it might
be said that it increases the resistance. Remember, to test bi-wiring you
have to use the same amount of wire for both mono and bi wiring. Otherwise
you're testing the effect of heavier wire instead of the concept of
bi-wiring. In order to get a true test, you must bi-wire the speakers
first. Then to compare bi with mono-wiring, just install the shorting strap
at the speaker.

Norm Strong



  #6   Report Post  
Uptown Audio
 
Posts: n/a
Default Normal Biwiring

Well that certainly tips the scale in the favor of the non-believers
now doesn't it? What I am talking about is an answer to the question
asked in real world terms. For instance, if you have a spool of 14ga
wire and use one run to the speakers, when you want to try bi-wiring
you don't run out and get some smaller wire to do that with, you
simply connect another length of the same wire. Two runs of the same
wire is what most people are asking about. When you do that, you halve
the resistance. In applications where longer runs, higher currents are
used into reactive loads then it should be at least a theoretical
advantage. Whether you can hear the difference or not is another
issue. Again, I am not recommending it, just commenting on it without
prejustice.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

wrote in message
...
"Uptown Audio" wrote in message
...
Great response and absolutely true in most respects. It is still
your
opinion that differs from the authors here as neither of you have
presented evidence to support your assertions. I do mean conclusive
evidence as we have all heard enough evidence to gag a maggot. One
thing that I think everyone agrres on is that it does lower the
resistance figures by nearly half. That may or may not be
significant
depending upon the associated equipment and of course the hearing
ability of the listener. In general, I don't recommend its use
either.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250


Bi-wiring doesn't "lower the resistance figures by half." In fact
it might
be said that it increases the resistance. Remember, to test
bi-wiring you
have to use the same amount of wire for both mono and bi wiring.
Otherwise
you're testing the effect of heavier wire instead of the concept of
bi-wiring. In order to get a true test, you must bi-wire the
speakers
first. Then to compare bi with mono-wiring, just install the
shorting strap
at the speaker.

Norm Strong


  #7   Report Post  
Uptown Audio
 
Posts: n/a
Default muddy waters

I would not specifically recommend it unless the user had a very high
current amplifier and a demanding set of speakers that was designed to
be bi-amplified or bi-wired AND was not yet bi-amplifying. It makes
bi-amplifying a snap as the cables are already there and it eliminates
the brass jumpers for a better connection (electrically balanced) to
each section of the crossover at a very low cost.
I never even suggested anything expensive. That was all your idea.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"mp" wrote in message
...
Uptown Audio wrote:

Great response and absolutely true in most respects. It is still
your
opinion that differs from the authors here as neither of you have
presented evidence to support your assertions. I do mean conclusive
evidence as we have all heard enough evidence to gag a maggot. One
thing that I think everyone agrres on is that it does lower the
resistance figures by nearly half. That may or may not be
significant
depending upon the associated equipment and of course the hearing
ability of the listener. In general, I don't recommend its use
either.



Not "in general"? What about, specifically?


In fine, one cannot discount psychological factors. If the typical
naive
audiophile feels some satisfaction after he has spent, say, $400 for
a set
of the latest and greatest Loge FireMusic cables from Valhalla labs
(or
possibly even laid out twice that for the Wotan series), then such a
person
can probably be convinced that doubling his investment will produce
more
(but likely not twice as much) satisfaction. And there are those
with more
money than sense who will not only go for it, but feel good about
the
purchase.


But if bi-wiring is such a good thing, then why stop with just two
runs.
Why not tri, or quad wiring?


Years ago, when Noel Lee walked into his first "high end" store with
a roll
of rather large diameter, but pretty, orange OEM cable, who could
have
guessed it would come to this?


mp


  #8   Report Post  
mp
 
Posts: n/a
Default muddy waters

Uptown Audio wrote:


I never even suggested anything expensive. That was all your idea.
-Bill



Not my idea. I never use anything but the plain Jane stuff. It is an idea
of people who find an OEM to make the stuff for them, and then enjoy huge
profits selling mystery wire to naive consumers through a network of HiFi
shops and magazines. A network that also shares in either direct profits
from retail sales or, in the case of the slicks, ad revenue.


mp
  #9   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Normal Biwiring

"Uptown Audio" wrote in message
...
Well that certainly tips the scale in the favor of the non-believers
now doesn't it? What I am talking about is an answer to the question
asked in real world terms. For instance, if you have a spool of 14ga
wire and use one run to the speakers, when you want to try bi-wiring
you don't run out and get some smaller wire to do that with, you
simply connect another length of the same wire. Two runs of the same
wire is what most people are asking about. When you do that, you halve
the resistance. In applications where longer runs, higher currents are
used into reactive loads then it should be at least a theoretical
advantage. Whether you can hear the difference or not is another
issue. Again, I am not recommending it, just commenting on it without
prejudice.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250


Remarkably enough, doing what you advocate does not halve the resistance,
except close to the crossover frequency. Outside of that frequency, the
signal must travel through one wire or the other, not both, and therefore
sees no reduction in resistance of the wire. If you short the wires
together at the speaker end you will get a halving of resistance--but then
of course you're no longer biwiring.

Norm Strong

  #10   Report Post  
Stewart Pinkerton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Normal Biwiring

On 16 Oct 2005 23:19:08 GMT, Uptown Audio wrote:

Well that certainly tips the scale in the favor of the non-believers
now doesn't it? What I am talking about is an answer to the question
asked in real world terms. For instance, if you have a spool of 14ga
wire and use one run to the speakers, when you want to try bi-wiring
you don't run out and get some smaller wire to do that with, you
simply connect another length of the same wire. Two runs of the same
wire is what most people are asking about. When you do that, you halve
the resistance.


No, you don't, that's the whole point. You make no difference at all
to the resistance of the wire, the wires are *not* connected in
parallel - because that's what the crossover is *for*.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering


  #11   Report Post  
John Richards
 
Posts: n/a
Default Biwiring ?

"Uptown Audio" wrote in message
...
Great response and absolutely true in most respects. It is still your
opinion that differs from the authors here as neither of you have
presented evidence to support your assertions. I do mean conclusive
evidence as we have all heard enough evidence to gag a maggot. One
thing that I think everyone agrres on is that it does lower the
resistance figures by nearly half.


I may be wrong, but I don't think it would lower the impedance seen by the
amplifier since at higher frequencies, the amplifier is looking only at the
single cable connected to the tweeter/midrange and at lower frequencies only
at the single cable connected to the woofer.

That may or may not be significant
depending upon the associated equipment and of course the hearing
ability of the listener. In general, I don't recommend its use either.
-Bill
www.uptownaudio.com
Roanoke VA
(540) 343-1250

"Gene Poon" wrote in message
...
William Eckle wrote:

The following is a statement by Robert Harley in the current issue
of
"The Perfect Vision".
Quote:

Connecting your speakers with two runs of loudspeaker cable
(if your speakers have two sets of input terminals) provides a
small but significant improvement in sound quality.
One pair of the speaker's input terminals is connected to the
woofer,and the other pair to the midrange and tweeter (or just the
tweeter in a two-way speaker). In a bi-wired system, the power
amplifier "sees" a higher impedance on the tweeter cable at low
frequencies and a lower impedance at high frequencies. The opposite
is
true on the woofer half of the bi-wired pair. This causes the
signal
to be split up, with high frequencies traveling mostly in the cable
driving the tweeter circuit, and low frequencies conduced by the
pair
connected to the loudspeaker's woofer circuit. This frequency
splitting reduces magnetic interaction in the cable, resulting in
better sound.
If you have the ability to bi-wire, it's worth the cost of an
extra
run of speaker cable. You can buy bi-wired cables with a single
pair
of terminations on the amplifier end and dual termination pairs on
the
speaker end. Be sure to remove the "jumpers" that connect the
pairs of speaker input terminal.
Unquote.
Is this true about the amp seeing the differences in impedance ?
And is it audible ?

================================

To me the key paragraph, where all the important information in this
post is found, is:

One pair of the speaker's input terminals is connected to the
woofer,and the other pair to the midrange and tweeter (or just the
tweeter in a two-way speaker). In a bi-wired system, the power
amplifier "sees" a higher impedance on the tweeter cable at low
frequencies and a lower impedance at high frequencies. The
opposite is
true on the woofer half of the bi-wired pair. This causes the
signal
to be split up, with high frequencies traveling mostly in the
cable
driving the tweeter circuit, and low frequencies conduced by the
pair
connected to the loudspeaker's woofer circuit. This frequency
splitting reduces magnetic interaction in the cable, resulting in
better sound.


================================================== ===

Up to the last sentence, it's all true, assuming a passive crossover
in the loudspeaker that actually behaves as described (not all of
them do). That last sentence is the one where unproven assumptions
are used by Mr. Harley to come to a conclusion. Those assumptions
include the actual existence of magnetic interaction, its amount,
and the true, audible effect of such "interaction."

Acceptance of those assumptions results in Mr. Harley's
recommendation, where he makes a value judgment that rightfully
belongs to the buyer: "If you have the ability to bi-wire, it's
worth the cost of an extra run of speaker cable." Given the price
of speaker cable that Harley's magazine would recommend, I'd find
the money better spent on more software...that is, more music to
listen to; at the price of that wire, a LOT more music. But that's
MY value judgment.

-GP


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