[[email protected]]

HI folks,

IT might seem at first blush as though this subject or
similar gets done to death on r.a.p. HOwever I"m looking
for suggestions for a variety of reasons.

First and foremost, my collection was destroyed during the
big wind and resulting fire at my SLidell Louisiana QTH last
summer. IT was modest but growing all the time. IT
consisted of a collection of the uqibuitous SHure 57 and
58's, a couple Sennheiser 421's, A pair Shure sm-81. Also
some old oddball dynamics. My next addition to it was
intended to be a pair of decent large diaphragm condensers.
THough some suggested the knock-offs from the third world I
was looking for the usual recognized names. Also a good
ribbon or two was in the future.

Expecting a windfall of cash within next 6 months for my
partner, and we're planning to outfit as remote audio
recording etc. THIs might mean providing decent stereo mix
for broadcast as well as recording. FOr multi-track
projects that use sr I'd be getting numerous close miced
sources using the microphones placed for sound reinforcement
but shall need some additional microphones of my own.

I'm thinking half a dozen Shure 57's, possibly a SEnn 421 or
two. An Ev re-20 of course. HOwever, I'm going to need some flexibility here to be
able to use the capture technique that best fits room and
performance.

SO as to plan for budgeting and prioritizing I"d like some
thoughts from some of you pros on what you'd consider to be
the contents of the essential mic locker for this
application. Versatility is the watchword for me here as I
can always rent for special circumstances.



Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.

[Paul Stamler]

First and foremost: What do you *expect* to be recording? (I emphasize that
word because I know there are always surprises, but what do you think will
be the most likely?) If you'll mostly be recording Western Swing bands, the
mic locker will be different than if you're mostly planning to record opera.

Peace,
Paul

[[email protected]]

On 2006-07-10 said:
First and foremost: What do you *expect* to be recording? (I
emphasize that word because I know there are always surprises, but
what do you think will be the most likely?) If you'll mostly be
recording Western Swing bands, the mic locker will be different
than if you're mostly planning to record opera.
AGreed. HOwever not sure if we're going to stay in the
Memphis area or relocate back to NEw ORleans area yet. I
suspect the type of things we'd be doing in one place might
differ. Would expect to be doing a wide variety of stuff,
especially while building a rep. Hence, trying to do some
cogitating on what should go into the mic locker first and
what could be put off.
Expect to be doing everything from rock & jazz bands to
chamberensembles etc. I know the bulk of our work
especially at first will be the ubiquitous rock band of
questionable talent wanting to make a demo in their practice
space or at the gig g. However we want to escape that market asap even
if the money doesn't improve.
However, the rock band of questionable talent cfan help us
build the mic locker and add a few other
extras however.
Ideally it would be nice to have a good collection which can
give us a decent m/s setup when desired, the standard xy
pair, ortf etc. My old collection which I lost in the fire
after the hurricane was limited but steadily growing, and as
I noted in my earlier post, a LD condenser or two and a good
ribbon were next on the list. HOwever, starting from
scratch again naturally.

We wouldn't mind getting into audio for broadcast now and
then, but musically we'd rather be doing classical
performances, jazz, bluegrass etc. tHOse are preferrable
gigs to the bar rock bands, but sometimes you take the work
you can get to pay the bills g.




Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.

[Scott Dorsey]

Expecting a windfall of cash within next 6 months for my
partner, and we're planning to outfit as remote audio
recording etc. THIs might mean providing decent stereo mix
for broadcast as well as recording. FOr multi-track
projects that use sr I'd be getting numerous close miced
sources using the microphones placed for sound reinforcement
but shall need some additional microphones of my own.

I'm thinking half a dozen Shure 57's, possibly a SEnn 421 or
two. An Ev re-20 of course. HOwever, I'm going to need some flexibility here to be
able to use the capture technique that best fits room and
performance.

You don't need any of that stuff. The PA guys will have all the 57s you
will ever need and probably some 421s and RE-20s if they are good.

What you need to provide are the mikes that the PA rental place will NOT
have. That means a couple omnis, but mostly it means the most super
directional mikes you can get. You'll get more use out of one Neumann KMS105
than out of a box of eight SM-57s, because the PA guys aren't going to have
a KMS105.

Likewise you know my favorites for the application... 441s, the N/D 468,
the Milabs, etc. And you're going to need a few good ambient mikes; if
you mix like I do with the ambient pair the base of the live mix you need
to spend as much as possible on the ambient pair. If you're not using the
room and just want audience mikes, try 635As out in the audience but use
a bunch of them so you can avoid individual voices poppping out.

Oh yeah, and I think everyone should have an AKG C747 interference tube
mike for announcers and lecterns. They look great on camera and are very
good at feedback rejection.

But don't spend your money duplicating what the PA guys already have.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2006-07-10 (ScottDorsey) said:
You don't need any of that stuff. The PA guys will have all the
57s you will ever need and probably some 421s and RE-20s if they
are good.
What you need to provide are the mikes that the PA rental place
will NOT have. That means a couple omnis, but mostly it means the
most super directional mikes you can get. You'll get more use out
of one Neumann KMS105 than out of a box of eight SM-57s, because
the PA guys aren't going to have a KMS105.
Likewise you know my favorites for the application... 441s, the N/D
468, the Milabs, etc. And you're going to need a few good ambient
mikes; if you mix like I do with the ambient pair the base of the
live mix you need to spend as much as possible on the ambient pair.
My preferred technique is much like yours. I'm thinking
along the same lines as well which tells me that if you're
advising the same I"m where I ought to be.
Was hoping you'd jump in here.


Oh yeah, and I think everyone should have an AKG C747 interference
tube mike for announcers and lecterns. They look great on camera
and are very good at feedback rejection.
I"ll have to check one of those out. I figure that even
weekend warriors wanting the cheap demo done at their
practice space or club gig have plenty of the sm-57 type
stuff. GOt enough other places to spend the $$$ that I want
to spend wisely.



Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.

[Richard Crowley]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Oh yeah, and I think everyone should have an AKG C747
interference tube mike for announcers and lecterns. They
look great on camera and are very good at feedback rejection.

But not as good as an old Electrovoice 644 which can double
as a ray gun (as it did, apparently, in at least one "B" movie :-)

[Scott Dorsey]

Richard Crowley wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
Oh yeah, and I think everyone should have an AKG C747
interference tube mike for announcers and lecterns. They
look great on camera and are very good at feedback rejection.

But not as good as an old Electrovoice 644 which can double
as a ray gun (as it did, apparently, in at least one "B" movie :-)

I actually do have a 644 in the truck, but I am ashamed to admit it.
The main difference is that the C747 actually doesn't sound bad and is
convenient.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

Likewise you know my favorites for the application... 441s, the N/D 468,


Where would you be most inclined to put the 441s and where the
468s?

[Scott Dorsey]

In article .com,
wrote:
Likewise you know my favorites for the application... 441s, the N/D 468,

Where would you be most inclined to put the 441s and where the
468s?

They are both fairly neutral mikes. No presence peak, and both very tight.
I'll use the 441 on all kinds of things, from pianos and vibes to woodwinds.
It's even a wonderful vocal mike if you need to pull the mike way back and
you have a performer who can work it without popping. I've given it to a
couple vocalists who insist on holding the mike at their navel and it's been
great for them.

The 468 isn't as neutral in the upper midrange and it can be a little bit
constricted on vocals, but it's still a workable vocal mike, especially if
you need a low profile mike to tape down next to a PA mike when there is
no splitter available. It's a better choice on acoustic guitars than the
441 because of the lower profile. You can hide it into all kinds of places,
and it's nearly as tight as the 441. And, of course, you can use it as a
drum mike spot (which is what it's sold for). It's a little more colored
than I'd like for piano but it could be workable, and I have used it more
than once as a rear spot mike on an upright.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

Are you in an area where you can rent what you don't have? My
experience working trucks was that they did tend to bring expensive LD
and other condensor mics for special applications that had only to do
with the recording, and let the PA guys handle the buckets of dynamic
mics that are mostly used in sound reinforcement. Up until you get
into the high-end of concert recording (Le Mobile etc) that is pretty
much what is expected. You might get some 57s etc to have as backup if
the PA guy's mics are too beat, or have some new 58s for the lead vox
if their's look like they've been dropped a lot. Otherwise--think
about ambience, audience, acoustic instruments, drum overheads, and get
the sort of condensors that one would use in a studio for this purpose,
as much as you can afford.

It's a very tough business--good luck to you: you deserve it after
Katrina.

Philip Perkins



Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:
Likewise you know my favorites for the application... 441s, the N/D 468,

Where would you be most inclined to put the 441s and where the
468s?

They are both fairly neutral mikes. No presence peak, and both very tight.
I'll use the 441 on all kinds of things, from pianos and vibes to woodwinds.
It's even a wonderful vocal mike if you need to pull the mike way back and
you have a performer who can work it without popping. I've given it to a
couple vocalists who insist on holding the mike at their navel and it's been
great for them.

The 468 isn't as neutral in the upper midrange and it can be a little bit
constricted on vocals, but it's still a workable vocal mike, especially if
you need a low profile mike to tape down next to a PA mike when there is
no splitter available. It's a better choice on acoustic guitars than the
441 because of the lower profile. You can hide it into all kinds of places,
and it's nearly as tight as the 441. And, of course, you can use it as a
drum mike spot (which is what it's sold for). It's a little more colored
than I'd like for piano but it could be workable, and I have used it more
than once as a rear spot mike on an upright.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
Are you in an area where you can rent what you don't have? My
experience working trucks was that they did tend to bring expensive LD
and other condensor mics for special applications that had only to do
with the recording, and let the PA guys handle the buckets of dynamic
mics that are mostly used in sound reinforcement. Up until you get
into the high-end of concert recording (Le Mobile etc) that is pretty
much what is expected. You might get some 57s etc to have as backup if
the PA guy's mics are too beat, or have some new 58s for the lead vox
if their's look like they've been dropped a lot.

The problem is that the PA crew usually HAVE 57s and 58s. If you go in
and replace them with higher grade stage mikes, the PA crew is usually
very grateful, and you get a better recording. So I think there is a
reason to carry some boxes of dynamic mikes around, but if you're going
to do that, you want them to be better mikes than the PA guys typically
have.

Otherwise--think
about ambience, audience, acoustic instruments, drum overheads, and get
the sort of condensors that one would use in a studio for this purpose,
as much as you can afford.

For the most part, though, you are going to be more concerned about pattern
in a live recording situation than in the studio where you can control
leakage better. So things like typical large diaphragm condensers are
usually right out, except for very occasional applications. On the other
hand, small diaphragm hypercardioids are a lifesaver.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article . com,
Scott Fraser wrote:
Oh yeah, and I think everyone should have an AKG C747 interference tube
mike for announcers and lecterns. They look great on camera and are very
good at feedback rejection.

And then later you can replace the AKG 747s with Neumann KM150's when
the new sound guy decides to put the budget to the test. Glad you found
a use for our old 747s. g

I dunno, I suspect the gain before feedback on a C747 is higher than that
a KM150. For a lot of applications, that's more important than good sound.

I really love the things as lectern mikes. You put them up in the corner
and the speaker doesn't have to pay any attention to the mike, he just
stands up and talks. The mike isn't in the shot and doesn't block his
face. No, it's not the most natural vocal sound, and it's a little honky,
but the rejection makes it possible to do stuff you couldn't do otherwise.

I have used them as sax mikes when I was told that the mike absolutely had
to be low profile and the BK-5 and RE-20 were out of the question. Pulled
it way back, and the leakage was still controlled and the sax sound was
not wonderful but entirely usable.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2006-07-10 said:
Are you in an area where you can rent what you don't have? My
WHerever I end up, either the mEmphis area here or back in
La. I'll be able to rent.

experience working trucks was that they did tend to bring expensive
LD and other condensor mics for special applications that had only
to do with the recording, and let the PA guys handle the buckets of
dynamic mics that are mostly used in sound reinforcement.
THat's what I plan to do as much as possible. My current
meager collection of mics is a SEnnheiser e609 dynamic (May
be wrong on the nomenclature) and an old ev 664, still has
the oddball four pin connection. tHInk it's four, I"d have
to take it out of the drawer over here grin.

snippage
You might get some 57s etc to
have as backup if the PA guy's mics are too beat, or have some new
58s for the lead vox if their's look like they've been dropped a
lot. Otherwise--think about ambience, audience, acoustic
instruments, drum overheads, and get the sort of condensors that
one would use in a studio for this purpose, as much as you can
afford.
THat dovetails with my thinking. IF I have a few of the
regular dynamics I can change out anything that's too badly
abused. Also since we're going to be "have rig will travel"
we're going to be doing the odd job where we need them
anyway, such as the band's demo in their practice space.

It's a very tough business--good luck to you: you deserve it after
Katrina.
USed to do some of this type of work back in the day when I
loaded up the analog deck mixer and all the stuff in a van,
dropped my snake and splitter in the door and a cable for
power. I've decided that either way I go I want the known
environment for monitoring, and the ability to rescue the
gear when the biggie comes, and he chances are good that
I"ll return ot hurricane country. I just happen to like
southern Louisiana.




Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.

[Paul Stamler]

You might want to stock a few Beta57s too; they'll be good replacements for
beat-up SM57s, they'll sound better, they won't be totally unfamiliar in
character to the soundguys, and they'll take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.

Peace,
Paul

[[email protected]]

On 2006-07-11 (ScottDorsey) said:
You might get some 57s etc to have as backup if the PA guy's mics
are too beat, or have some new 58s for the lead vox if their's
look like they've been dropped a lot.
The problem is that the PA crew usually HAVE 57s and 58s. If you
go in and replace them with higher grade stage mikes, the PA crew
is usually very grateful, and you get a better recording. So I
think there is a reason to carry some boxes of dynamic mikes around,
but if you're going to do that, you want them to be better mikes
than the PA guys typically have.
True enough. Still it's hard to keep them looking good if
you use them, because "talent" has a habit of abusing them.
THIs means rushing right out when the recording's just about
over and performance winding down to retrieve them asap
while the lady babysits the last of the recording and
prepares to hand media to client.

For the most part, though, you are going to be more concerned about
pattern in a live recording situation than in the studio where you
can control leakage better. So things like typical large diaphragm
condensers are usually right out, except for very occasional
applications. On the other hand, small diaphragm hypercardioids
are a lifesaver.
YEs, and I'd like to get something that's suitable, a good
fig 8 so that I have the possibility of m/s when it's the
right tool. THankfully there's a wide variety of reasonable
sd condensers out there, so by the time we get down to mics
I may be a little strapped for budget but can acquire some
pieces that are still usable but plan to eventually upgrade.
I'm already planning on a pair of the Neumanns Scott
mentioned in a post yesterday. WIll probably be pickier
here than with just about any other piece of kit. AT least
good mics treated properly can provide a lifetime of
service. Media format etc. is all stuff with a lifetime
that is comparatively short.




Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Amazing how much tape is on a 10" reel when it's not.

[[email protected]]

On 2006-07-11 (ScottDorsey) said:
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
In article . com,
Scott Fraser wrote:
I dunno, I suspect the gain before feedback on a C747 is higher
than that a KM150. For a lot of applications, that's more
important than good sound.
I really love the things as lectern mikes. You put them up in the
corner and the speaker doesn't have to pay any attention to the
mike, he just stands up and talks. The mike isn't in the shot and
doesn't block his face. No, it's not the most natural vocal sound,
and it's a little honky, but the rejection makes it possible to do
stuff you couldn't do otherwise.
WIll really give that some consideration as well. SOme good
suggestions in this thread. Thanks folks!!!

Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
On 2006-07-11 (ScottDorsey) said:
You might get some 57s etc to have as backup if the PA guy's mics
are too beat, or have some new 58s for the lead vox if their's
look like they've been dropped a lot.
The problem is that the PA crew usually HAVE 57s and 58s. If you
go in and replace them with higher grade stage mikes, the PA crew
is usually very grateful, and you get a better recording. So I
think there is a reason to carry some boxes of dynamic mikes around,
but if you're going to do that, you want them to be better mikes
than the PA guys typically have.

True enough. Still it's hard to keep them looking good if
you use them, because "talent" has a habit of abusing them.
THIs means rushing right out when the recording's just about
over and performance winding down to retrieve them asap
while the lady babysits the last of the recording and
prepares to hand media to client.

Yes, that's true. Although to be honest, if they work I don't care what
they look like. My KMS105s even have Peavey stickers on them to keep them
from being stolen. But yeah, mikes will get abused and they will get beat
up and that's just part of the cost that you bill to the client.

For the most part, though, you are going to be more concerned about
pattern in a live recording situation than in the studio where you
can control leakage better. So things like typical large diaphragm
condensers are usually right out, except for very occasional
applications. On the other hand, small diaphragm hypercardioids
are a lifesaver.

YEs, and I'd like to get something that's suitable, a good
fig 8 so that I have the possibility of m/s when it's the
right tool. THankfully there's a wide variety of reasonable
sd condensers out there, so by the time we get down to mics
I may be a little strapped for budget but can acquire some
pieces that are still usable but plan to eventually upgrade.
I'm already planning on a pair of the Neumanns Scott
mentioned in a post yesterday. WIll probably be pickier
here than with just about any other piece of kit. AT least
good mics treated properly can provide a lifetime of
service. Media format etc. is all stuff with a lifetime
that is comparatively short.

How about a Beyer M130/M160 pair? They make a good (if not very detailed)
M-S pair together, or you can use the M130 with a condenser mike with a little
more top end as the S mike, or you can use them seperately on all kinds of
things from vocals to fiddle to electric guitar cabinets. Delicate, but not
insanely so.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2006-07-11 (ScottDorsey) said:
How about a Beyer M130/M160 pair? They make a good (if not very
detailed) M-S pair together, or you can use the M130 with a
condenser mike with a little more top end as the S mike, or you can
use them seperately on all kinds of things from vocals to fiddle to
electric guitar cabinets. Delicate, but not insanely so.
SOunds like a thought as well. I"ll keep that in my list of
mics to look for, was considering that or I believe there's
a ROyer as well suited to this application. Have to look
through my archives to find the model nomenclature.



Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



a good captain is hoisting his first drink in a bar
when the storm hits

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
On 2006-07-11 (ScottDorsey) said:
How about a Beyer M130/M160 pair? They make a good (if not very
detailed) M-S pair together, or you can use the M130 with a
condenser mike with a little more top end as the S mike, or you can
use them seperately on all kinds of things from vocals to fiddle to
electric guitar cabinets. Delicate, but not insanely so.

SOunds like a thought as well. I"ll keep that in my list of
mics to look for, was considering that or I believe there's
a ROyer as well suited to this application. Have to look
through my archives to find the model nomenclature.

None of the Royer figure-8 mikes are symmetric... they all have more top end
in one lobe than the other. A good thing for vocal recording since it gives
you more flexibility, a bad thing for M-S.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Fraser]

I dunno, I suspect the gain before feedback on a C747 is higher than that
a KM150.

Might could be, although I always suspected the pattern was awfully
broad for a hypercard.

For a lot of applications, that's more important than good sound.

Yeah. We get away with a lot by keeping levels down & playing a lot
with location & focus of the stacks.

I really love the things as lectern mikes. You put them up in the corner
and the speaker doesn't have to pay any attention to the mike, he just
stands up and talks.

Sorta confirms my impression of the broad pattern then if there's a hot
spot big enough accommodate short & tall talkers.

The mike isn't in the shot and doesn't block his
face. No, it's not the most natural vocal sound, and it's a little honky,
but the rejection makes it possible to do stuff you couldn't do otherwise.

I have used them on a couple of talking head industrials, & I remember
getting ridiculous gain before feedback in ballrooms after taking the
first 4 or 5 notches out. Pretty thin, but intelligible, when
intelligibility is more critical than fidelity.

I have used them as sax mikes when I was told that the mike absolutely had
to be low profile and the BK-5 and RE-20 were out of the question.

Now you're starting to make my head hurt.

Pulled
it way back, and the leakage was still controlled and the sax sound was
not wonderful but entirely usable.
--scott

I think we've all used lavs for things that should get our licenses
revoked.

Scott Fraser

[[email protected]]

On 2006-07-11 (ScottDorsey) said:
How about a Beyer M130/M160 pair? They make a good (if not
very detailed) M-S pair together, or you can use the M130 with
a condenser mike with a little more top end as the S mike, or
you can use them seperately on all kinds of things from vocals
to fiddle to electric guitar cabinets.
snippage
SOunds like a thought as well. I"ll keep that in my list of
mics to look for, was considering that or I believe there's
a ROyer as well suited to this application. Have to look
through my archives to find the model nomenclature.
None of the Royer figure-8 mikes are symmetric... they all have
more top end in one lobe than the other. A good thing for vocal
recording since it gives you more flexibility, a bad thing for M-S.
Thanks, I"d heard good things about them but hadn't played
with one, so that's a good thing to keep in mind. BUmps
the Beyers up on my list g.



Richard webb,
Electric Spider Productions
Replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real
email address.



Great audio is never heard by the average person, but bad
audio is heard by everyone.

[[email protected]]

None of the Royer figure-8 mikes are symmetric... they all have more top end
in one lobe than the other. A good thing for vocal recording since it gives
you more flexibility, a bad thing for M-S.
--scott


If a person has a figure-8 mic, what's the best way to
find out if it is symmetrical or not?

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
None of the Royer figure-8 mikes are symmetric... they all have more top end
in one lobe than the other. A good thing for vocal recording since it gives
you more flexibility, a bad thing for M-S.

If a person has a figure-8 mic, what's the best way to
find out if it is symmetrical or not?

Plug it into a console with a phase reverse switch. Jingle your keys on
one side, then swap polarity and jingle your keys on the other side. The
closer the two lobes sound to one another, the more symmetric the mike is.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."