Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?
Thanks!
-Frank

Realize that you're trying to record one of the hardest instruments there is
to record. I've been trying different equipment/techniques for 5 years now
and still haven't really figured it out (maybe I'm just slow). Lots depends
on the room acoustics, the way your particular piano's been voiced, and the
style of music you want to record. Many many more details will be necessary
if you want decent help.

Dave

"Frank Mazzola" wrote in message
om...
Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?
Thanks!
-Frank

I have no idea, but ill add you also are going to need decent monitor
speakers if you dont already have them...

Dave
"Frank Mazzola" wrote in message
om...
Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?
Thanks!
-Frank

Well, mics certainly make a difference, and pres make some too, particularly
if you get pres that are intentionally colored, like Joe Meeks. But you
don't really have that problem as much as you have a situation with
placement in the room and what the room sounds like. I really like
recording piano. I use anything from SM57s to Neumann KM 184s. Take your
pick. It's not the mic that makes the music good. The difference is that
when the music is good, you then have an alternative to moving mics
(whichever you choose) around to get the sound that you'd like to represent.
You don't say what type of music you play, and you don't give us any idea of
what the room is like. Some people here won't even like the idea that you
have a Baldwin instead of a Steinway! g

Be a little more specific, please.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Frank Mazzola" wrote in message
om...
Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?
Thanks!
-Frank

Why? I can pretty much know what I'm recording without even having monitors
or headphones, if the room sounds right to me and the piano sounds good.
Big claim, I know, but it's a matter of experience. I've been placing mics
around pianos since maybe 1968. All kinds of pianos, all kinds of mics and
in all kinds of rooms. Can't say that I'd get the absolute BEST sound, but
I'd get reasonably good sound.

But, I will admit, it doesn't hurt to have nice monitors. It's not a
requirement before you try recording a piano, but it certainly doesn't hurt.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio

"Zeppelin4Life" wrote in message
...
I have no idea, but ill add you also are going to need decent monitor
speakers if you dont already have them...

Dave
"Frank Mazzola" wrote in message
om...
Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?
Thanks!
-Frank

"Frank Mazzola" wrote in message
om

Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:

1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?

Here's an amusing approach:

1. Microphones (4):
a. Shure SM93 PZM or equivalent double-sided taped to center of
underside of lid
b. MXL 603 on small boom stand, pointed at the underside the piano,
about 1 foot from far end of piano, wired out of phase with mic a.
c. 2 small diaphragm omnis, pick suitable offerings from DPA,
Earthworks, Audix, or Behringer, suspeded fairly high some distance on
either side of piano to pick up piano with lots of room ambience. Examples
(below) were done with Behringer ECM-8000s.

2. Preamp - let your conscience be your guide, but you need 4 channels.
Examples below were done with a Mackie SR-32

3. Recorder - something that records 4 channels with very high quality.
Examples below were done with a M-Audio Delta 1010

4. Post processing - Mix close-up mics with ambience mics to suit yourself.
Example below were done with Adobe Audition.

Working examples:

Same (live) performance mixed 3 different ways:

www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-intro.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-live.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-close.mp3

Beware of slow server!

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Working examples:

Same (live) performance mixed 3 different ways:

www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-intro.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-live.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-close.mp3

Nice, Arny! Nice playing, too. Me, I like the sound of the first one best.
--


Neil Henderson
Saqqara Records
http://www.saqqararecords.com

1. On a stepladder, find with one ear the piano's "sweet spot" near,
but not over, the front edge of the piano.

2. Place at that spot an ORTF pair of good cardioid sd condensors; KM
184, Rode NT-5, etc. Play with the angle, between 90 and 110 degrees,
to give the right amount of stereo spread.

3. Wrap a condensor omni (Behringer 8000, Audix TR40, or other) in foam
or a towel, and lay it on the soundboard right at the back edge, about
one foot away from the hammers. Bring this up in the mix just enough to
lend weight to the lowest octave, and be prepared to roll off the mids
and highs.

4. Forget about ambience mics because, in any living room, the near
reflections will smear the close mics, creating a hollow piano tone.
With software, add good stereo reverb to taste.

Just my .02


Frank Mazzola wrote:

Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?
Thanks!
-Frank

Arny Krueger wrote:


Same (live) performance mixed 3 different ways:

www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-intro.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-live.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-close.mp3

Beware of slow server!


Not found. Did it die?

S O'Neill wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-intro.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-live.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-close.mp3

Not found. Did it die?

The slashes are backwards, Microsoft style. Turning them into html/URL
style made the difference for me.

/L

--
lars farm // http://www.farm.se

In article writes:

Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?

First, how much experience do you have, and what gear do you already
have? If you're a beginner at this (which I suspect you are since you
asked about DAT and Minidisk) don't spend $1,000 - $2,000 right away.
Work your way up as you learn what you need. Every situation is a
little bit different.

Get a couple of acceptable but not expensive condenser mics, a preamp,
and a record, and start experimenting with mic placement and even
piano placement. When you start getting close, analyze what's missing
and then start asking more questions.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

wrote in message
om
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Working examples:

Same (live) performance mixed 3 different ways:

www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-intro.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-live.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-close.mp3

Nice, Arny! Nice playing, too. Me, I like the sound of the first one
best.

Thanks for the encouragement. The first one was the *final version*. Except
for playing around for this post, it would have been the only version.. The
other two were quickie extreme mixes that I threw together to show the
variation of timbre and imaging that was possible. I also did a mono sum of
the first version that used to check for mono compatibility, but it sounded
a lot like the third version so I didn't bother posting it.

The artist was our organist, who has rarely performed for us as a pianist.

Frank Mazzola wrote:
Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?
Thanks!
-Frank

I both play piano and have recorded many pianos (others playing) over
the last decade and a half, so would like to comment on a few things.

This is not just a difficult task to get a good sound, it also depends
greatly on what kind of sound you want to get out of the piano. For
example, do you want the recording to sound like you are sitting at the
piano or the piano is at a distance in an auditorium? Do you like a
warm sound or a bright sound? Do you want wide stereo separation, or
little stereo separation? Is it to be played back in the living room,
or as a performance background track in a performance hall on a sound
system?

For this reason, you need to try different microphones and microphone
placement until you achieve the sound you personally are looking for.
For recording clients, I usually do a multitrack recording of, maybe six
microphones, then later choose which ones to use and how to post process
it. I often use a combination of boundary microphones (PZMs, PCCs) and
directional conventional microphones in the process.

Many people will give advice on how to mic. a piano. Some good, and
some bad. But among the different advice that can be called good are a
wide assortment of different strategies that produce entirely different
sounds that suit different tastes.

I would like you to listen to the following recording I did of a
Berkeley music student some years back and tell me what you think of the
recording. PLEASE, everyone, I ask that you do not comment on this
recording at all until Frank has done so. I want to hear what he thinks
first. I'm going somewhere with this, and there is more I have to say.

http://www.audiorail.com/piano_demo.mp3

Keep in mind with the above recording that my personal tastes are for a
bright sound, wide stereo, and the perspective of being close to the
piano. This is what I personally like. That sound can easily be made
warmer, narrower, or given a different ambiance.

Lars Farm wrote:

S O'Neill wrote:


Arny Krueger wrote:


www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-intro.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-live.mp3
www.pcavtech.com\test_data\piano-close.mp3


Not found. Did it die?


The slashes are backwards, Microsoft style. Turning them into html/URL
style made the difference for me.

/L



Thanks, I didn't notice that.

Frank Mazzola at wrote on 7/6/04 6:34 PM:

Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
omni

2. Preamp
anything

3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
no mini disc

4. Post-processing- software or hardware?
why?


--
John I-22
(that's 'I' for Initial...)
Recognising what's NOT worth your time, THAT'S the key.
--

Frank Mazzola wrote:

Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room.

OK, we will help you. In a way. First examine whether the room is OK, it
may be relevant to spend some part of the budget on the room acoustics.
You may also have to spend some of it on the piano, too much sustain may
sound messy in what is - for a concert grand - a small room, just my
opinion. Finding the optimum location of the piano in the room is a part
of this.

With $1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please
guide me as
to:

1. Microphones

I think a pair of Octavas will be my suggestion. I'd much rather suggest
DPA or Schoeps, perhaps Sennheiser, perhaps AKG 451, but a good pair
Octava's do a good concert grand and their slight "unsturdyness" is not
an issue for use in a home environment where you probably will make a
one time installation of them suspended from the ceiling once you have
determined where to place them. Lid off, lid on full stick, lid on half
a stick or lid closed, all need different microphone positioning, it is
about getting mics combined with room combined with piano right.

2. Preamp

The Symetrix 302 fits the budget.

3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card

Storage medium is irrelevant, the the first question is: "what
converter, what recording format and should I look for a mic pre with
converter included?"

4. Post-processing- software or hardware?

Thank you for asking such a wonderful question. There is however
something we don't know: what is the purpose of the recording and what
is the end target? - If you just want a CD to put on the shelf and
perhaps to send to Aunt Emma, then all you need after the preamp is a
stand alone CD-recorder, HHB - Fostex - Pioneer, all are probably still
Pioneer, select HHB to get it utility black and HHB to get it in a nice
coffee creme colour. A pair of Octava's, knowing where to position them,
a Symetrix 302 and a CD recorder would be one way of combining a neat
setup for the use in the home.

The general answer to question 4 is: preferably none, record so that not
even the level needs adjustment afterwards.

-Frank


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

Realize that you're trying to record one of the hardest instruments there is
to record.

This is a perception I've never understood, but what I think is meant is that a
good piano is hard to find. I can put any mics anywhere in my room & the piano
sounds wonderful. Different colors, but it never sounds anything other than
very fine. What is so hard about recording piano? Deciding on just what color
you like, maybe?


Scott Fraser

Frank Mazzola wrote:

Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room.

What's the intended purpose of the recordings?

With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones

A pair of Josephson Series 4 cardioid condensers.

2. Preamp

FMR RNP www.fmraudio.com

3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card

Your preference, but what do you want to do with the recordings?

4. Post-processing- software or hardware?

Or not, depending...

--
ha

Frank Mazzola wrote:

Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room.

What's the intended purpose of the recordings?

With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones

A pair of Josephson Series 4 cardioid condensers.

2. Preamp

FMR RNP www.fmraudio.com

3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card

Your preference, but what do you want to do with the recordings?

4. Post-processing- software or hardware?

Or not, depending...

--
ha

Producer Tom Frost recorded Vladimir Horowitz "At Home" album with 2
Schoeps MK2 capsules going to a Sony TCD-D10 Portable DAT with Custom
Apogee AD filters. I'm not sure about post-production techniques
applied, but I know that he used Sonex to block outside noise from the
windows and to reduce some of the reflections in the room.

Recording in his living room was not the first choice venue, of
course, but they did it because too many times, Horowitz would go to
the studio and not feel like it was the best day to record and cancel.
Therefore, they offered to set up a studio in his living room, and
when the time was right, they would go to his apartment and run tape.

Mike



(Frank Mazzola) wrote in message . com...
Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?
Thanks!
-Frank

Producer Tom Frost recorded Vladimir Horowitz "At Home" album with 2
Schoeps MK2 capsules going to a Sony TCD-D10 Portable DAT with Custom
Apogee AD filters. I'm not sure about post-production techniques
applied, but I know that he used Sonex to block outside noise from the
windows and to reduce some of the reflections in the room.

Recording in his living room was not the first choice venue, of
course, but they did it because too many times, Horowitz would go to
the studio and not feel like it was the best day to record and cancel.
Therefore, they offered to set up a studio in his living room, and
when the time was right, they would go to his apartment and run tape.

Mike



(Frank Mazzola) wrote in message . com...
Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones
2. Preamp
3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card
4. Post-processing- software or hardware?
Thanks!
-Frank

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1089162475k@trad...


First, how much experience do you have, and what gear do you already
have? If you're a beginner at this (which I suspect you are since you
Hi Mike,
I am an experienced classical pianist but a beginner at recording. I
want to make decent quality recordings, but only to distribute to Mom
and friends, and to listen to myself. I need a system that will be
responsive to rapid passages and wide tonal colors. As far as the
Baldwin goes.. I really want a Steinway but can't afford it!
Thanks.
-Frank

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1089162475k@trad...


First, how much experience do you have, and what gear do you already
have? If you're a beginner at this (which I suspect you are since you
Hi Mike,
I am an experienced classical pianist but a beginner at recording. I
want to make decent quality recordings, but only to distribute to Mom
and friends, and to listen to myself. I need a system that will be
responsive to rapid passages and wide tonal colors. As far as the
Baldwin goes.. I really want a Steinway but can't afford it!
Thanks.
-Frank

"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote in message ...
PLEASE, everyone, I ask that you do not comment on this
recording at all until Frank has done so. I want to hear what he thinks
first. I'm going somewhere with this, and there is more I have to say.

http://www.audiorail.com/piano_demo.mp3

Keep in mind with the above recording that my personal tastes are for a
bright sound, wide stereo, and the perspective of being close to the
piano. This is what I personally like. That sound can easily be made
warmer, narrower, or given a different ambiance.

OK, I didn't read ahead. I am impressed with the bass response. The
ambience seems a bit artificial to me, and the tones are somewhat
"hollow", as if there is some midrange missing. But I think it suits
the music very well. I was listening to the sound as it would be with
let's say, a Rachmaninov prelude or Chopin etude.

-Frank

"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote in message ...
PLEASE, everyone, I ask that you do not comment on this
recording at all until Frank has done so. I want to hear what he thinks
first. I'm going somewhere with this, and there is more I have to say.

http://www.audiorail.com/piano_demo.mp3

Keep in mind with the above recording that my personal tastes are for a
bright sound, wide stereo, and the perspective of being close to the
piano. This is what I personally like. That sound can easily be made
warmer, narrower, or given a different ambiance.

OK, I didn't read ahead. I am impressed with the bass response. The
ambience seems a bit artificial to me, and the tones are somewhat
"hollow", as if there is some midrange missing. But I think it suits
the music very well. I was listening to the sound as it would be with
let's say, a Rachmaninov prelude or Chopin etude.

-Frank

Frank Mazzola wrote:
"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote in message ...

PLEASE, everyone, I ask that you do not comment on this
recording at all until Frank has done so. I want to hear what he thinks
first. I'm going somewhere with this, and there is more I have to say.

http://www.audiorail.com/piano_demo.mp3

Keep in mind with the above recording that my personal tastes are for a
bright sound, wide stereo, and the perspective of being close to the
piano. This is what I personally like. That sound can easily be made
warmer, narrower, or given a different ambiance.


OK, I didn't read ahead. I am impressed with the bass response. The
ambience seems a bit artificial to me, and the tones are somewhat
"hollow", as if there is some midrange missing. But I think it suits
the music very well. I was listening to the sound as it would be with
let's say, a Rachmaninov prelude or Chopin etude.

So here's the rest of the story on this.

I talked about recording acoustic pianos live with microphones, then
posted a sound file that was not one.

Because of all the hassle and trouble it is to get a good piano
recording, I am finding that my clients (including experienced piano
professionals) are opting more and more often for piano sound modules.

You said that you had "$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend", so here's
an alternative you should consider. I'm not saying that it is right for
you, because everyone's tastes and standards about different aspects of
recording pianos are different, but you should give this idea some
thought and consideration. For example:

MIDI-only keyboard, 88-keys, fully weighted: $500 retail.
Piano sound module: $100 on eBay.
Reverb: $100 on eBay.
Sound card with MIDI and analog line in/out: $200 retail.
Software for MIDI and sound file editing: $50 retail.

Total: $1000. (very roughly)

No, there isn't anything quite like an authentic recording of an
authentic piano. But the authentic piano has its problems. What
happens when the dog barks during your perfect take in your living room?
The sound module is always in tune and there is no ambient noise or
microphone placement to worry about.

Most significantly, you can record the MIDI off the keyboard instead of
sound, and then with point and click convenience edit the individual
notes on a piano roll on the computer. Change or add notes, length of
notes, exact timing of notes, loudness of notes. When you have it to
your liking, you play the MIDI out of the computer back into the piano
module and record the sound file. Then you add reverb to your liking.
In comparison, punch-in/out editing of a real acoustic piano can be
difficult and tedious, and you have to know what you are doing there, as
well. If you are the recording technician and the performer at the same
time, how are you going to juggle things on an acoustic piano?

Then you have the benefit of actually taking this keyboard with you to
another location to perform on it. This is far superior to some of the
cheap upright pianos that you find in various places, out of tune
pianos, or no pianos. You can even take it to someone else's house and
plug it into their stereo. You can take it on vacation with you.

The recording I posted was a Fatar SL-990 MIDI keyboard driving an
Alesis Nanopiano sound module, which consists of samples of a
Bosendorfer grand. The reverb is a combination of hall and room (I used
separate reverb boxes, but this is not necessary.) The Nanopiano is a
personal preference of mine, and it does have some issues (don't go out
and buy one before asking me to elaborate). Most people prefer and
recommend other brands.

Again, I don't want to be construed as categorically recommending that
you go this route. It is a trade off. What I am recommending is that
you consider this route as one possible alternative to taking up the
task of recording your Baldwin with microphones in your living room.

There is more to say, but I'll stop here to see what you'll say (i.e. "I
would never go that route" or "Tell me more").

And keep in mind that mine is just one point of view. I am not setting
myself up as the "expert" of "experts". Consider what other people have
to say, as well.

Frank Mazzola wrote:
"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote in message ...

PLEASE, everyone, I ask that you do not comment on this
recording at all until Frank has done so. I want to hear what he thinks
first. I'm going somewhere with this, and there is more I have to say.

http://www.audiorail.com/piano_demo.mp3

Keep in mind with the above recording that my personal tastes are for a
bright sound, wide stereo, and the perspective of being close to the
piano. This is what I personally like. That sound can easily be made
warmer, narrower, or given a different ambiance.


OK, I didn't read ahead. I am impressed with the bass response. The
ambience seems a bit artificial to me, and the tones are somewhat
"hollow", as if there is some midrange missing. But I think it suits
the music very well. I was listening to the sound as it would be with
let's say, a Rachmaninov prelude or Chopin etude.

So here's the rest of the story on this.

I talked about recording acoustic pianos live with microphones, then
posted a sound file that was not one.

Because of all the hassle and trouble it is to get a good piano
recording, I am finding that my clients (including experienced piano
professionals) are opting more and more often for piano sound modules.

You said that you had "$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend", so here's
an alternative you should consider. I'm not saying that it is right for
you, because everyone's tastes and standards about different aspects of
recording pianos are different, but you should give this idea some
thought and consideration. For example:

MIDI-only keyboard, 88-keys, fully weighted: $500 retail.
Piano sound module: $100 on eBay.
Reverb: $100 on eBay.
Sound card with MIDI and analog line in/out: $200 retail.
Software for MIDI and sound file editing: $50 retail.

Total: $1000. (very roughly)

No, there isn't anything quite like an authentic recording of an
authentic piano. But the authentic piano has its problems. What
happens when the dog barks during your perfect take in your living room?
The sound module is always in tune and there is no ambient noise or
microphone placement to worry about.

Most significantly, you can record the MIDI off the keyboard instead of
sound, and then with point and click convenience edit the individual
notes on a piano roll on the computer. Change or add notes, length of
notes, exact timing of notes, loudness of notes. When you have it to
your liking, you play the MIDI out of the computer back into the piano
module and record the sound file. Then you add reverb to your liking.
In comparison, punch-in/out editing of a real acoustic piano can be
difficult and tedious, and you have to know what you are doing there, as
well. If you are the recording technician and the performer at the same
time, how are you going to juggle things on an acoustic piano?

Then you have the benefit of actually taking this keyboard with you to
another location to perform on it. This is far superior to some of the
cheap upright pianos that you find in various places, out of tune
pianos, or no pianos. You can even take it to someone else's house and
plug it into their stereo. You can take it on vacation with you.

The recording I posted was a Fatar SL-990 MIDI keyboard driving an
Alesis Nanopiano sound module, which consists of samples of a
Bosendorfer grand. The reverb is a combination of hall and room (I used
separate reverb boxes, but this is not necessary.) The Nanopiano is a
personal preference of mine, and it does have some issues (don't go out
and buy one before asking me to elaborate). Most people prefer and
recommend other brands.

Again, I don't want to be construed as categorically recommending that
you go this route. It is a trade off. What I am recommending is that
you consider this route as one possible alternative to taking up the
task of recording your Baldwin with microphones in your living room.

There is more to say, but I'll stop here to see what you'll say (i.e. "I
would never go that route" or "Tell me more").

And keep in mind that mine is just one point of view. I am not setting
myself up as the "expert" of "experts". Consider what other people have
to say, as well.

In article ,
(Frank Mazzola) wrote:

Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones

I had good luck making a piano CD last winter with Octava MC012s in ORTF
configuration. Took a few trials of experimentation with different mic
placements, configurations (ORTF/NOS/XY), piano configurations (lid,
distance from wall, etc), but after a wall I got a sound I was happy
with.

2. Preamp

I have an audio interface with built-in pres, but judging by what I've
heard in the past, you'd probably be best off with a clean pre like an
FMR RNP or a Symetrix 202. If you can step up the money a bit, perhaps a
Grace.

3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card

Don't have much experience with this.

4. Post-processing- software or hardware?

You may find, depending on circumstances, that you need a bit of EQ
and/or reverb. If you're EQing more than just a few "broad strokes" of a
few dB, you probably want to investigate moving your mics. Given that
you're recording in a living room, a bit of nice reverb might soften
things up a bit in a manner that's appropriate for classical music.


If you want to take a listen to my classical piano tracks, they're
online:
http://goldbarterholdings.com/todd/resume/piano/

So you know, my piano is a Yamaha U3 upright (which actually has a great
tone considering it's not a grand, in my opinion). Recording was ORTF
about 2 feet behind and above my head with the piano lid open for some
pieces and closed for others. Piano was located spaced about 2 feet out
from a pine wall, and moving it seemed to tweak the low end a bit.

Also, listen to all the pros in this group, in particular Peter Larsen
-- he advised me a bit last winter and everything he said was spot on.

-Todd

In article ,
(Frank Mazzola) wrote:

Help! My head is spinning with all the different options for
recording my 6'3" Baldwin grand piano in my living room. With
$1,000-2,000 (give or take) to spend, could someone please guide me as
to:
1. Microphones

I had good luck making a piano CD last winter with Octava MC012s in ORTF
configuration. Took a few trials of experimentation with different mic
placements, configurations (ORTF/NOS/XY), piano configurations (lid,
distance from wall, etc), but after a wall I got a sound I was happy
with.

2. Preamp

I have an audio interface with built-in pres, but judging by what I've
heard in the past, you'd probably be best off with a clean pre like an
FMR RNP or a Symetrix 202. If you can step up the money a bit, perhaps a
Grace.

3. DAT vs mini disc vs direct to PC sound card

Don't have much experience with this.

4. Post-processing- software or hardware?

You may find, depending on circumstances, that you need a bit of EQ
and/or reverb. If you're EQing more than just a few "broad strokes" of a
few dB, you probably want to investigate moving your mics. Given that
you're recording in a living room, a bit of nice reverb might soften
things up a bit in a manner that's appropriate for classical music.


If you want to take a listen to my classical piano tracks, they're
online:
http://goldbarterholdings.com/todd/resume/piano/

So you know, my piano is a Yamaha U3 upright (which actually has a great
tone considering it's not a grand, in my opinion). Recording was ORTF
about 2 feet behind and above my head with the piano lid open for some
pieces and closed for others. Piano was located spaced about 2 feet out
from a pine wall, and moving it seemed to tweak the low end a bit.

Also, listen to all the pros in this group, in particular Peter Larsen
-- he advised me a bit last winter and everything he said was spot on.

-Todd

In article ,
"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote:

"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote in message
...
http://www.audiorail.com/piano_demo.mp3


So here's the rest of the story on this.

I talked about recording acoustic pianos live with microphones, then
posted a sound file that was not one.


Good. I'm glad to hear my ears aren't crazy. My first thought was
"that's a really odd sounding piano. It sounds really mechanical." My
second thought was "hmm... this isn't MIDI???" And then I read this
reply. As for it sounding like the midrange is missing, I agree. It's
not so much the midrange of the audio spectrum as much as a sort of
feeling that each note has been scooped out. I get the feeling the notes
are U-shaped rather than O-shaped, if that makes any sense.

For the same ~$800-1000, I'd personally rather get a Digidesign Mbox
($500ish, cheaper used), a pair of Octava Mk012s ($250 for guitar center
variety, which, if you're lucky, sound fine), and the required
stands/cables.

Granted, editing might not be quite as easy as with MIDI, but if you're
willing to put some effort in, it's not hard to edit over a botched note
or two. BUT, I can never get the tone I want out of a MIDI piano. I
don't have much experience with them (only a crappy 49-key keyboard from
when I was 7), but whenever I've tried to play serious music on them
I've been rather disappointed by the whole experience and resulting
sound.

-Todd

In article ,
"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote:

"Garth D. Wiebe" wrote in message
...
http://www.audiorail.com/piano_demo.mp3


So here's the rest of the story on this.

I talked about recording acoustic pianos live with microphones, then
posted a sound file that was not one.


Good. I'm glad to hear my ears aren't crazy. My first thought was
"that's a really odd sounding piano. It sounds really mechanical." My
second thought was "hmm... this isn't MIDI???" And then I read this
reply. As for it sounding like the midrange is missing, I agree. It's
not so much the midrange of the audio spectrum as much as a sort of
feeling that each note has been scooped out. I get the feeling the notes
are U-shaped rather than O-shaped, if that makes any sense.

For the same ~$800-1000, I'd personally rather get a Digidesign Mbox
($500ish, cheaper used), a pair of Octava Mk012s ($250 for guitar center
variety, which, if you're lucky, sound fine), and the required
stands/cables.

Granted, editing might not be quite as easy as with MIDI, but if you're
willing to put some effort in, it's not hard to edit over a botched note
or two. BUT, I can never get the tone I want out of a MIDI piano. I
don't have much experience with them (only a crappy 49-key keyboard from
when I was 7), but whenever I've tried to play serious music on them
I've been rather disappointed by the whole experience and resulting
sound.

-Todd

Well, that was fascinating. I appreciate you comments and candor. As
a classical pianist though, part of my expression is in the nuances in
the music and tone colorations, some of which are spontaneous with
each performance. It's hard for me to believe that the feel of a
keyboard can be the same as that of an acoustic piano, but I haven't
tried any of the more recent ones, so I can't judge.
-Frank

Well, that was fascinating. I appreciate you comments and candor. As
a classical pianist though, part of my expression is in the nuances in
the music and tone colorations, some of which are spontaneous with
each performance. It's hard for me to believe that the feel of a
keyboard can be the same as that of an acoustic piano, but I haven't
tried any of the more recent ones, so I can't judge.
-Frank

Fascinating!

Fascinating!

It's hard for me to believe that the feel of a
keyboard can be the same as that of an acoustic piano, but I haven't
tried any of the more recent ones, so I can't judge.

As a classical pianist, you really needn't bother. There is no MIDI device
available, nor will there ever be, that has anything remotely approaching the
degree of expressiveness you will achieve on your grand piano.


Scott Fraser

It's hard for me to believe that the feel of a
keyboard can be the same as that of an acoustic piano, but I haven't
tried any of the more recent ones, so I can't judge.

As a classical pianist, you really needn't bother. There is no MIDI device
available, nor will there ever be, that has anything remotely approaching the
degree of expressiveness you will achieve on your grand piano.


Scott Fraser

I can't believe some of the suggestions posted here for recording
piano. I'm assuming here you got a grand piano and you're looking for a
nice grand sound, and not a piano sound to overdub on a multitrack
pop/rock/blues song.

Stick a finger in one ear and use the other one to find where you think
your piano sounds wonderful. Put a pair of mics there, the best you
got. Put 'em the same distance for the piano and about 6 - 10 inches
apart. (I like U87's in cardiod. Ya, I know that's over the budget.)

Plug them into the best 2 channel mic pre you can afford. (I like a gml
for this.)

Press record.

If you need to add a little reverb be prepared to go thru every box,
plug-in and program you got, cuz it's gonna take more time than you
think to find something that actually enhances a nice grand piano
recording, rather than using some uninspiring program to just slather
on some soupy reverb. I found my current fave in, of all places, a
Reverb One program in Protools HD.




David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

I can't believe some of the suggestions posted here for recording
piano. I'm assuming here you got a grand piano and you're looking for a
nice grand sound, and not a piano sound to overdub on a multitrack
pop/rock/blues song.

Stick a finger in one ear and use the other one to find where you think
your piano sounds wonderful. Put a pair of mics there, the best you
got. Put 'em the same distance for the piano and about 6 - 10 inches
apart. (I like U87's in cardiod. Ya, I know that's over the budget.)

Plug them into the best 2 channel mic pre you can afford. (I like a gml
for this.)

Press record.

If you need to add a little reverb be prepared to go thru every box,
plug-in and program you got, cuz it's gonna take more time than you
think to find something that actually enhances a nice grand piano
recording, rather than using some uninspiring program to just slather
on some soupy reverb. I found my current fave in, of all places, a
Reverb One program in Protools HD.




David Correia
Celebration Sound
Warren, Rhode Island


www.CelebrationSound.com

Frank Mazzola wrote:
Well, that was fascinating. I appreciate you comments and candor. As
a classical pianist though, part of my expression is in the nuances in
the music and tone colorations, some of which are spontaneous with
each performance. It's hard for me to believe that the feel of a
keyboard can be the same as that of an acoustic piano, but I haven't
tried any of the more recent ones, so I can't judge.
-Frank

And I do appreciate your comments and candor, as well, for you are
correct, and there is nothing quite like a real piano.

My point I think is that the MIDI keyboard has come a long way and
really isn't that bad. I have professional, classical pianists who are
now turning to it, and it is not because I am doing anything to
influence them. It is not the horrible thing it once was, and it is
getting better with time. As for the purely mechanical feel goes, it
is now as good, especially since real pianos vary so much anyway. But
as for the translation of that mechanical action into all the subtly
different nuances of sound, it does have a long way to go.

Getting back to recording a real piano with microphones, my take on it
is that you would be best with microphones driving a preamp driving a
sound card on your PC. This allows you to play something multiple times
while continuously recording, then going into the computer and editing
the takes together after the fact.

If you want a close, warm, wide sound, PZMs ($250 each) mounted to the
underside of the lid will do this. I put one over the center of the
high end strings (i.e. near the hammers) and the second one in the
center of the lower end strings (i.e. much deeper down.) If you want a
more distant, brighter sound, then two condenser microphones ($250 each)
pointed horizontally at the lid at two different positions will do this.
The further away, the more authentic, but the more ambient noise
issues. The closer, the more you pick up internal piano noise.

This is how I generally start out when attacking a piano. But there are
other approaches. You need to listen to different people's advice and
try different things.

A couple of other people mentioned this as well, but your ear carefully
moving around the piano is the best place to start in assessing what
kind of sound you want. You might even try a few sample recordings with
somebody's cheap consumer gear (but not too cheap!), just to see where
you are in the ballpark and do some experimentation, assuming you don't
have access to the pro gear before you buy it.