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#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out
there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from adistance?
On 12/6/2016 10:15 AM, John Abnarthy wrote:
I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. Nothing will make it sound like a studio recording, but one thing you might try is to play the recording back through a speaker (or pair of speakers) in a reasonably good sounding room, and set up a spaced pair of omni mics and record the sound in the room. Think Capitol Studio's famous echo chambers. Or if you just want to buy something, assuming you've already played with some reverb plugins, you might take a look at Zynaptiq's Adaptaverb. I saw a demo of it at the last AES show and it lets you play with a lot of stuff that ordinary reverbs don't. They offer a free 30 day trial, though you need an iLok account (you can sign up for one even if you don't have an iLok dongle or any software that uses it). http://www.zynaptiq.com/adaptiverb/ -- For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
John Abnarthy wrote:
I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. Well, there are so many different reasons that the synthesizers don't sound like the real instrument. But applying fake reverb can help somewhat. It's not going to be just a matter of applying fake reverb overall to the whole mix, more one of adding individually tailored reverb to each one. When you listen in a concert hall, each of the instruments has their own radiation pattern and so the sound coming out of them is striking the hall differently. Each instrument produces different sounds in different directions; the piano is producing a lot of low end out the bottom but all of the treble is coming out of the top and directed to the side (which is part of why moving to the short stick changes the tone so much). As the instrument is moved around in space, that changes too. All of that is summed down to make the sound that you hear. With the synthesizer, there's only one sound coming out, not lots of different ones, and all you can do is put that into a fake reverb algorithm that emulates the room.... but the effect is very crude because it's only one sound in all directions. Current technology doesn't allow you to get synthesized orchestras that sound very much like the real thing, but they are good enough for a demo to give to the conductor of a real orchestra to demonstrate what you want it to sound like. You can hire top notch orchestras in eastern Europe for quite reasonable prices. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 10:15:27 AM UTC-5, John Abnarthy wrote:
I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. Maybe add echo!! Jack |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
Scott,
That is one of the best explanations I have seen. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from adistance?
On 7/12/2016 4:15 a.m., John Abnarthy wrote:
I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. Any reverb plug-in and some eq maybe ? More sophisticated reverbs have freq-dependant settings and built-in EQ that may offer potentially better results than a simple one. geoff |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from adistance?
On 7/12/2016 4:48 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
John Abnarthy wrote: Well, there are so many different reasons that the synthesizers don't sound like the real instrument. But applying fake reverb can help somewhat. It's not going to be just a matter of applying fake reverb overall to the whole mix, more one of adding individually tailored reverb to each one. Who said synthesiser ? I assumed 'sampler' or sample-based orchestral instrument like Garritan. ..... which can be quite impressie, but still hardly the 'real thing'. And sophisticate convolution reverbs based on real spaces can be fantastic on some sources, but huge individual tweaking of multiple instances would be involved (taking huge computing power that may not even be usable for real-time preview) to emulate spacial diversity of the source instruments, if the source application allows them to be realistically made as individual tracks in the first place. Depends on the purpose of the excercise and expectations of the end result. geoff |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from adistance?
geoff wrote:
On 7/12/2016 4:48 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote: John Abnarthy wrote: Well, there are so many different reasons that the synthesizers don't sound like the real instrument. But applying fake reverb can help somewhat. It's not going to be just a matter of applying fake reverb overall to the whole mix, more one of adding individually tailored reverb to each one. Who said synthesiser ? I assumed 'sampler' or sample-based orchestral instrument like Garritan. That's a synthesizer. Even if it's not chopping the sample up to alter the length of a note or anything and strictly playing back unaltered samples. It's still playing back a scalar sound pressure rather than a 3-space representation of the sound field. And sophisticate convolution reverbs based on real spaces can be fantastic on some sources, but huge individual tweaking of multiple instances would be involved (taking huge computing power that may not even be usable for real-time preview) to emulate spacial diversity of the source instruments, if the source application allows them to be realistically made as individual tracks in the first place. Computation is cheap; it's not unusual to see folks using sectional reverb on fake orchestras at the minimum. But it's still limited to the fact that you're starting only with a one-dimensional representation of the instrument. Often it'll be done in layers with reverb added to the tracks put into the stems and then the stems themselves re-reverbed. Depends on the purpose of the excercise and expectations of the end result. Indeed. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
On 06 Dec 2016, John Abnarthy wrote in
rec.audio.pro: I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. I have a very old plugin that came with an early version of Cakewalk Sonar. It's called "Cakewalk FX3 SoundStage". It's a room simulator, a form of reverb, but what's cool about it is you can graphically design your room and place your source and microphones within it. The effect is surprisingly realistic. I just looked around a little and it doesn't seem to be available any longer. Also, it used the ancient DX interface which long ago lost out in the marketplace in favor of VST. Otherwise a good alternative might be a convolution reverb, which uses recorded samples of room reverbs to digitally simulate various room and mic characteristics. I use one called "Perfect Space" that, again, came with my old version of Sonar. There are many others but I don't know enough about them to recommend one. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from adistance?
John Abnarthy wrote:
I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. Uhhh.... reverb? Maybe more than one reverb. -- Les Cargill |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
"Nil" wrote in message ... On 06 Dec 2016, John Abnarthy wrote in rec.audio.pro: I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. I have a very old plugin that came with an early version of Cakewalk Sonar. It's called "Cakewalk FX3 SoundStage". It's a room simulator, a form of reverb, but what's cool about it is you can graphically design your room and place your source and microphones within it. The effect is surprisingly realistic. Agreed....I still use it from time to time. Poly |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
In article ,
Nate Najar wrote: Scott, That is one of the best explanations I have seen. Thank you. 25 years of repeating it over and over again to customers has given me opportunities to refine it as time has passed. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from adistance?
On 06-12-2016 16:15, John Abnarthy wrote:
I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. CoolEdit / Audition has/had a room emulation verb that is reasonably credible IF you know how to position source and mics in the real world. i don't know what the capabilities of the recent version are, but it is likely that there still is a functioning demo in the download section on adobe's website. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:15:27 AM UTC-6, John Abnarthy wrote:
I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. No, but a good convolution reverb would probably help. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
John Abnarthy:
I know of a plugin that emulates distance micing - yet doesn't require a computer. There might be at least two or three in your home town. |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from adistance?
On 12/6/2016 10:48 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
John Abnarthy wrote: I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. Well, there are so many different reasons that the synthesizers don't sound like the real instrument. But applying fake reverb can help somewhat. It's not going to be just a matter of applying fake reverb overall to the whole mix, more one of adding individually tailored reverb to each one. When you listen in a concert hall, each of the instruments has their own radiation pattern and so the sound coming out of them is striking the hall differently. Each instrument produces different sounds in different directions; the piano is producing a lot of low end out the bottom but all of the treble is coming out of the top and directed to the side (which is part of why moving to the short stick changes the tone so much). As the instrument is moved around in space, that changes too. All of that is summed down to make the sound that you hear. With the synthesizer, there's only one sound coming out, not lots of different ones, and all you can do is put that into a fake reverb algorithm that emulates the room.... but the effect is very crude because it's only one sound in all directions. Current technology doesn't allow you to get synthesized orchestras that sound very much like the real thing, but they are good enough for a demo to give to the conductor of a real orchestra to demonstrate what you want it to sound like. You can hire top notch orchestras in eastern Europe for quite reasonable prices. --scott I generally agree with everything you've written, here. However, I would like to expand on a couple of points. "With the synthesizer, there's only one sound coming out, not lots of different ones..." IMO, that is too much of a generalization. Even classic basic synths of the early Moog era were capable of generating multiple sounds, and how those waveforms are processed is determined by the user. Many current-day software synths typically have this capability for any single 'instrument', and the electronic musician can easily build 'instruments' from multiple sources, be they individual waveforms or ..wav files, and in 2D or 3D space, so the complexity of the signal is pretty much a non-issue. Now for some nit-picking, I read the OP's question as meaning whether his dry synth mix could be made to sound like it was mic'd. IOW, I agree that to make any synth sound like a physical instrument would be a challenge, but anyone capable of getting into the ballpark of that one would be unlikely to ask such a question. ;-) One thing that happens when a physical instrument is mic'd is that many of the complexities of its sound are lost due to many factors, including such things as the mic characteristics, limitations of mic positions, all the 'back-end' electronics, etc., so a lot of subtleties are gone anyway. Once it's recorded, it's perceptibly different than live. If one gets the basic room reverb qualities worked out (not a simple task in itself), then properly 'places' the 'instrument' in the mix along with some resonances characteristic of the physical instrument, one can achieve quite pleasing results (again, you're right about this having to be done for each instrument). It won't sound like a person playing a physical instrument, but more because of the extremely complex nuances between instrument and player. Even two players playing the identical instrument at the same location in the room will be distinct, so there is a bit of latitude for synthesis, but, this aspect would have to be addressed for each instrument in the mix as well. ;-) However, is the OP trying for that level of sophistication? I'm skeptical. Perhaps some basic information about room acoustics is an acceptable starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_field_synthesis http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.142.2233&rep=rep1&type=pdf Choose the tools that address some of these issues and go as far as one needs to get a satisfactory result. -- best regards, Neil |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
John Abnarthy:
I know of a plugin that emulates distance micing - yet doesn't require a computer. There might be at least two or three in your home town. A large, reflective heavily-tiled public restroom! |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from a distance?
thekma @gmail.com wrote in message
... A large, reflective heavily-tiled public restroom! So you like to spend your time in public restrooms. Do you also like gladiator movies? |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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plug-in to remix a computer mix to emulate micing from adistance?
On 2016-12-06, John Abnarthy wrote:
I hope the subject makes sense. I see a lot of sound design tools out there nowadays and have only played with some of them. I'm wondering if there's anything out there these days that would let me take a PC mixed orchestral recording (no mics used at all, made with a MIDI keyboard with wave file inputs) and make it sound like it was recorded in a studio? Some sort of Win standalone or plug-in. Thanks. I knew I had come across some free VST plugins that seem to match the capabilities you're asking for. http://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/ Proximity: Several models can be combined: Distance signal delay by speed of sound Distance gain loss Absorption of high-frequencies in air Stereo width manipulation Proximity effect of virtual microphone Distance based early reflections http://www.experimentalscene.com/software/spatialverb/ ES SpatialVerb: A free plugin that uses raytracing to generate a realistic early impulse response. You can control the size of the room, location of two virtual source speakers and two destination microphones. The late impulse response is governed by a Circulant Feedback Delay Network (CFDN) which in contrast to many other reverb filters has a very low amount of ringing. You can control the FDN by setting feedback, cutoff and gain. You can adjust the feedback and gain of the FDN so that it's response is a natural progression from the early response of the room. |
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