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adam79 adam79 is offline
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Default MS Recording Mics

The band I'm recording is gonna be ready this weekend, so I'm trying to
make my final decision on what mics I'll be renting. From the last post
I wrote on here, it seemed that the consensus what that I should rent
the AKG 414B-EB and 414B-ULS for the MS Recording on the Drums. Even
though they are different variants of the 414, I'll get a more balanced
tone using them instead of a Neumann UM-70S and MCA SP1, right?

I also need to rent an interface for PT since I only have a MBox 2; I
need more than 4 channels. The only PT interface the rental place has is
the ART Pro Channel. I haven't heard any real positive reviews on this
unit, but it'll have to do.

I also need to rent monitors. They have the following:
-Paradigm Mini Monitor v4
-KRK 6000
-Behringer Truth 2031A
-JBL 4401 Control
-Yamaha NS-10
-Samson Resolve 50A

The only active ones are the Behringer and Samson. The only power amp I
have is a QSC RMX that I use for my PA system. If I rent a pair that
needs to be powered, I'll have to run my PA (Mackie VLZ-PRO - QSC RMX).
Would the best way to set this up be connecting the PT interface outputs
into two of the channels on the Mackie and then hook up the Monitors to
the Mackie "Control Room" connection? Should I use the insert
connections so the signal bypasses the channel EQ? It would be way
easier to just rent one of the Active monitors, even though they aren't
as quality as the other choices.

Thanks,
-Adam
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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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Default MS Recording Mics

adam79 writes:

The band I'm recording is gonna be ready this weekend, so I'm trying to
make my final decision on what mics I'll be renting. From the last post
I wrote on here, it seemed that the consensus what that I should rent
the AKG 414B-EB and 414B-ULS for the MS Recording on the Drums. Even
though they are different variants of the 414, I'll get a more balanced
tone using them instead of a Neumann UM-70S and MCA SP1, right?


Are you using ONLY the MS pair for the entire kit, or will you also be tracking
snare and kick?

I missed the original thread, but unless I was in a really good room, with
12+ foot ceilings and plenty of space around the drums (and reasonably good iso on
everything else that's in the room), I'd be hesitant to use MS -- or
be at least prepared to throw away the S mic in the mix.

Why? Because the lobes of the figure-8 will be pointed essentially at whatever walls
or instruments are off to the sides of the kit -- and you might not like at all what
you get. Yes, the drum image will bloom nicely when you bring up a properly
calibrated S+ and S- pair of signals into the mix, but so will room crap and other
nearby instruments.

(I hope you're going to have the raw M and S channels recorded to decode later
during the mix and not decode them on the fly to L and R and record only those,
because then it's hard to unbake the cake. You'll need to figure out a decode
method for monitoring during recording, but try to keep those original M and S
signals recorded separately.)

You can try M-S, but unless the room was good I'd be inclined to have microphones on
kick, snare, and if I only had two more, say the 414s, I'd maybe try stereo
overheads or perhaps a mono overhead with the other mic somewhere in the tom area.
Much depends on the size of the kit and the drummer. You can play with pans and
small channel delays in the mix to get a pretty good stereo image from a non-stereo
situation.

Another crazy idea that I've used before is a mono overhead, but then a figure-8
lower and closer in near the tom area of the kit. I treat it and the distant
overhead as an M-S pair (the figure-8 is delayed a bit to sync with the overhead).
You get a little better iso because the S mic is getting blasted with more signal.
A little funky, YMMV.

You'll have to listen pretty carefully, but make sure you don't burn out the band
and drummer with endless sound checks. Make something happen as quickly as you can.
(In a perfect world, you'd have the kit a day ahead of time -- and a helper who
can swing a drum stick -- and do your own tests and kit tuning well before the band
shows up.

the ART Pro Channel. I haven't heard any real positive reviews on this
unit, but it'll have to do.


I hope it's 24 bit, in which case don't let any drum peaks exceed -14, which means
your drum levels might look low but you're accommodating the likely crap analog path
leading to the converters. Keep the levels tame through there and it might well
sound better than it ought to. Does the ART have pads on the preamps? You'll
probably need them, especially with the 414s.


I also need to rent monitors. They have the following:


Sorry, no help here. Don't know any of those.

connections so the signal bypasses the channel EQ? It would be way
easier to just rent one of the Active monitors, even though they aren't
as quality as the other choices.


Whatever you pick, make sure you have a chance to live with it for a day or so
before the band shows up. Last thing you want are weird things while the band is
recording, such as nuclear-explosion loud pops, bangs, or hard feedback upon
switching things, or anechoic quiet because the signal is lost somewhere. And
there's also the concept of getting a feel for what they sound like in your room
prior to the band showing up.

Good luck with it.

Frank
Mobile Audio

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default MS Recording Mics

adam79 wrote:
The only active ones are the Behringer and Samson. The only power amp I
have is a QSC RMX that I use for my PA system. If I rent a pair that
needs to be powered, I'll have to run my PA (Mackie VLZ-PRO - QSC RMX).
Would the best way to set this up be connecting the PT interface outputs
into two of the channels on the Mackie and then hook up the Monitors to
the Mackie "Control Room" connection? Should I use the insert
connections so the signal bypasses the channel EQ? It would be way
easier to just rent one of the Active monitors, even though they aren't
as quality as the other choices.


Rent monitors that you are familiar with.

If you aren't familiar with any of them, rent them a couple weeks in advance
and spend five or six hours a day listening to material you're familiar with
on them.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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adam79 adam79 is offline
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Default MS Recording Mics

On 9/30/12 5:02 PM, Frank Stearns wrote:

Are you using ONLY the MS pair for the entire kit, or will you also be tracking
snare and kick?


MS, kick and snare.

I missed the original thread, but unless I was in a really good room, with
12+ foot ceilings and plenty of space around the drums (and reasonably good iso on
everything else that's in the room), I'd be hesitant to use MS -- or
be at least prepared to throw away the S mic in the mix.


Well that's lame!

Why? Because the lobes of the figure-8 will be pointed essentially at whatever walls
or instruments are off to the sides of the kit -- and you might not like at all what
you get. Yes, the drum image will bloom nicely when you bring up a properly
calibrated S+ and S- pair of signals into the mix, but so will room crap and other
nearby instruments.

(I hope you're going to have the raw M and S channels recorded to decode later
during the mix and not decode them on the fly to L and R and record only those,
because then it's hard to unbake the cake. You'll need to figure out a decode
method for monitoring during recording, but try to keep those original M and S
signals recorded separately.)


You're talking about waiting until mixdown to reverse the phase, right?


the ART Pro Channel. I haven't heard any real positive reviews on this
unit, but it'll have to do.


I hope it's 24 bit, in which case don't let any drum peaks exceed -14, which means
your drum levels might look low but you're accommodating the likely crap analog path
leading to the converters. Keep the levels tame through there and it might well
sound better than it ought to. Does the ART have pads on the preamps? You'll
probably need them, especially with the 414s.


Forget the ART Pro Channel. I forgot that I only have PT 7.3 LE, which
isn't compatible w/ the ART. Unless I can find an Avid interface, I'm
gonna have to use my KORG D16 for tracking and then import the tracks
into PT for mixdown.


I also need to rent monitors. They have the following:


Whatever you pick, make sure you have a chance to live with it for a day or so
before the band shows up. Last thing you want are weird things while the band is
recording, such as nuclear-explosion loud pops, bangs, or hard feedback upon
switching things, or anechoic quiet because the signal is lost somewhere. And
there's also the concept of getting a feel for what they sound like in your room
prior to the band showing up.


Unfortunately, I will not have this luxury. We are recording next week
and the band only has enough money to rent the mics for one day and the
monitors for one day.

-Adam
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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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Default MS Recording Mics

adam79 writes:

On 9/30/12 5:02 PM, Frank Stearns wrote:

Are you using ONLY the MS pair for the entire kit, or will you also be tracking
snare and kick?


MS, kick and snare.


I missed the original thread, but unless I was in a really good room, with
12+ foot ceilings and plenty of space around the drums (and reasonably good iso on
everything else that's in the room), I'd be hesitant to use MS -- or
be at least prepared to throw away the S mic in the mix.


Well that's lame!


Reality; sorry. With drums in a good room, the room tone would likely be great to
have. But with lower ceilings or nearby surfaces you'll get more "smear" than
bigness and depth.

Why? Because the lobes of the figure-8 will be pointed essentially at whatever walls
or instruments are off to the sides of the kit -- and you might not like at all what
you get. Yes, the drum image will bloom nicely when you bring up a properly
calibrated S+ and S- pair of signals into the mix, but so will room crap and other
nearby instruments.

(I hope you're going to have the raw M and S channels recorded to decode later
during the mix and not decode them on the fly to L and R and record only those,
because then it's hard to unbake the cake. You'll need to figure out a decode
method for monitoring during recording, but try to keep those original M and S
signals recorded separately.)


You're talking about waiting until mixdown to reverse the phase, right?


Yes. I assume you know the M-S decode trick without using a matrix? S gets split to
two channels (labeled S+ and S-), and hard-panned full hard left (S+) and full hard
right (S-). The "S-" is polarity flipped.

The trick is to keep the S channels calibrated. Easily done by temporarily muting
the M channel, panning the S+ and S- channels to dead-center mono, then balancing
the relative levels of the S channels for the most perfect null you can get. So, if
you decide to EQ the S channels, do exactly the same for both. When done, pan the
channels back out.

Or, another trick is to use two post-fader aux sends out of the original S channel
to two new channels (one of them polarity flipped, hard L/R panned respectively).
Take the origin S channel signal OUT of the stereo bus. Calibrate the receive S
channels, and now you just have to EQ the "origin" S channel or change its level as
what you do is reflected to both receive channels.

(You can also do a hybrid, source S channel is in the mix hard left, one post-fade
send goes to a polarity flipped aux input, hard right (S-). How well this works
depends on internal routing whether the hybrid will have the same latency and such.)

Be careful there is NOTHING ELSE on these aux sends, and that you don't
cross-send the two. (This is typically the way to go in a DAW; might not be
practical in hardware unless you have a lot of free channels on your mixer.)

If during calibration you hear part of the frequency spectrum still "poking out of
the null" play with the EQ very slightly, see if you can get a better null.

the ART Pro Channel. I haven't heard any real positive reviews on this
unit, but it'll have to do.


I hope it's 24 bit, in which case don't let any drum peaks exceed -14, which means
your drum levels might look low but you're accommodating the likely crap analog path
leading to the converters. Keep the levels tame through there and it might well
sound better than it ought to. Does the ART have pads on the preamps? You'll
probably need them, especially with the 414s.


Forget the ART Pro Channel. I forgot that I only have PT 7.3 LE, which
isn't compatible w/ the ART. Unless I can find an Avid interface, I'm
gonna have to use my KORG D16 for tracking and then import the tracks
into PT for mixdown.


Tracking to a dedicated recorder might be a little more reliable and less
distracting. It's the preferred work method here (at least on location). My only
concern would be the preamps in the Korg, and whether pads are available. If not,
for sure use the internal pads on the 414s. (Most of the pro-sumer preamps,
whether in an interface, mixer, or portastudio, have their gain structures set for
low-output dynamics. High output condensors can clip the hell out of the front ends,
even with the trim pot all the way down.)


I also need to rent monitors. They have the following:


Whatever you pick, make sure you have a chance to live with it for a day or so
before the band shows up. Last thing you want are weird things while the band is
recording, such as nuclear-explosion loud pops, bangs, or hard feedback upon
switching things, or anechoic quiet because the signal is lost somewhere. And
there's also the concept of getting a feel for what they sound like in your room
prior to the band showing up.


Unfortunately, I will not have this luxury. We are recording next week
and the band only has enough money to rent the mics for one day and the
monitors for one day.


New mics _and_ new monitors, in the same session? Living dangerously! (But that's
part of what makes it fun.) If at all possible, try early on to set aside some chunk
of time to listen to the monitors with material you know to get a sense of what's
happening. During the session think twice about any extreme EQs you might be tempted
to make -- could be that the monitors (with their partner in crime, the room) are
lying to you.

Get every possible piece of gear you already have set up and tested the day(s)
before. Even stupid stuff, like headphone extensions and AC strips for any band
items needing power should be out, tested, and ready to go.

You will need *every second* to deal with the new hardware.

Good luck with it,
Frank
Mobile Audio

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adam79 adam79 is offline
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On 10/2/12 9:57 AM, Frank Stearns wrote:
adam79 writes:

I missed the original thread, but unless I was in a really good room, with
12+ foot ceilings and plenty of space around the drums (and reasonably good iso on
everything else that's in the room), I'd be hesitant to use MS -- or
be at least prepared to throw away the S mic in the mix.


Well that's lame!


Reality; sorry. With drums in a good room, the room tone would likely be great to
have. But with lower ceilings or nearby surfaces you'll get more "smear" than
bigness and depth.


I'm still gonna be renting both 414s, so I'll atleast give the MS setup
a try and see what happens.


Tracking to a dedicated recorder might be a little more reliable and less
distracting. It's the preferred work method here (at least on location). My only
concern would be the preamps in the Korg, and whether pads are available. If not,
for sure use the internal pads on the 414s. (Most of the pro-sumer preamps,
whether in an interface, mixer, or portastudio, have their gain structures set for
low-output dynamics. High output condensors can clip the hell out of the front ends,
even with the trim pot all the way down.)


I'm pretty sure there aren't any pads on the D16. It's a first
generation digital recorder, so it doesn't even have a USB connection.
It also doesn't have phantom power, so I'm gonna have to run the mics
through my Mackie VLZ-PRO mixer, which has the low-cut filter. What type
of pads would you recommend I use? The D16 has 24bit recording, but I
think you can only use up to 6 tracks, so I'll probably have to do the
recording in 16bit.

Thanks,
-Adam
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Phil W[_3_] Phil W[_3_] is offline
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"adam79":

I'm pretty sure there aren't any pads on the D16. It's a first generation
digital recorder, so it doesn't even have a USB connection. It also
doesn't have phantom power, so I'm gonna have to run the mics through my
Mackie VLZ-PRO mixer, which has the low-cut filter. What type of pads
would you recommend I use?
The D16 has 24bit recording, but I think you can only use up to 6 tracks,
so I'll probably have to do the recording in 16bit.


Quote from
http://korg.co.uk/downloads/d16/support/D16_OM.pdf
page 7:

"It [D16] contains a 16 track recorder, a 24-channel 8-bus mixer, and
effects.
When using 16 bit recording/playback:
8 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 16 tracks can be played back simultaneously.

When using 24 bit recording/playback:
4 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 8 tracks can be played back simultaneously."

Consider downloading the PDF manual and taking it with you to the recording
session. ;-)

I wouldn´t worry about 16 bit "only" too much. Still better than running out
of tracks.


Hope, that helps,

Phil

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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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adam79 writes:

On 10/2/12 9:57 AM, Frank Stearns wrote:
adam79 writes:

Reality; sorry. With drums in a good room, the room tone would likely be great to
have. But with lower ceilings or nearby surfaces you'll get more "smear" than
bigness and depth.


I'm still gonna be renting both 414s, so I'll atleast give the MS setup
a try and see what happens.


Good.

low-output dynamics. High output condensors can clip the hell out of the front ends,
even with the trim pot all the way down.)


I'm pretty sure there aren't any pads on the D16. It's a first
generation digital recorder, so it doesn't even have a USB connection.
It also doesn't have phantom power, so I'm gonna have to run the mics
through my Mackie VLZ-PRO mixer, which has the low-cut filter. What type
of pads would you recommend I use? The D16 has 24bit recording, but I
think you can only use up to 6 tracks, so I'll probably have to do the
recording in 16bit.


I'm sure the 414s have pad switches right on the mic; probably -15, maybe -10. If
you're doing drums with them, you'll most likely want to engage those on-mic pads
UNLESS you suddenly seem starved for level at the Mackie (highly unlikely).

And I haven't used that mixer -- does it have switchable input pads for the
microphones? You could use them as an alternative.

Also be aware that some Mackie mic pres had a reputation for a slightly different
tone color at different positions of the trim pot. Not sure if that's the case with
this model, but it's something to keep in mind.

Next thing is to get the channel signals out to the recorder. Typically channel
direct outs (if it has them) are post fader. Usually not good for recording. Next
best are the insert points, which are almost universally pre-fader but might be post
EQ, also not good. But you might have to live with it and bypass the EQs if possible
(certainly set the EQs flat) unless the inserts are configured internally (or can be
switched) to pre EQ.

Now, some folks use the "half-way" insert of a TRS plug to get to the signal, but
that's just so bogus (and risky). Far better to make up your own cables. On the TRS
plug, solder a jumper between the T and R connections; run the other end out to the
line in of the recorder. Doing it like that, you can firmly seat the plug in the
mixer insert jack as it's supposed to be, and still have signal flow through the
rest of the channel. Also, in this configuration, doesn't matter whether the tip or
ring is the gozouta - you're just tapping the flow.

But another poster noted the 4 channel simultaneous record limit of the Korg. If so,
yikes!!! You might find yourself doing a "live to four track" with the instruments
lived mixed to two channels, and maybe any live vocals or instrumental solos on the
other two channels.

I hope that's not the case, but if so you'll get a taste of what recording was like
in the olden days when four track was the standard.

Have fun with it,
Frank
Mobile Audio

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adam79 adam79 is offline
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On 10/3/12 10:45 PM, Phil W wrote:

"It [D16] contains a 16 track recorder, a 24-channel 8-bus mixer, and
effects.
When using 16 bit recording/playback:
8 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 16 tracks can be played back simultaneously.

When using 24 bit recording/playback:
4 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 8 tracks can be played back simultaneously."


They want to record live, so 24 bit ain't happening. They're a punk rock
band and want kind of a low-fi sound, so 16 bit is good enough for this
session.

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Don Pearce[_3_] Don Pearce[_3_] is offline
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On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:45:53 -0400, adam79 wrote:

On 10/3/12 10:45 PM, Phil W wrote:

"It [D16] contains a 16 track recorder, a 24-channel 8-bus mixer, and
effects.
When using 16 bit recording/playback:
8 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 16 tracks can be played back simultaneously.

When using 24 bit recording/playback:
4 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 8 tracks can be played back simultaneously."


They want to record live, so 24 bit ain't happening. They're a punk rock
band and want kind of a low-fi sound, so 16 bit is good enough for this
session.

There is no fidelity difference between 16 and 24 bits. If you want Lo
Fi, use a cassette recorder.

d


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adam79 adam79 is offline
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On 10/4/12 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:

There is no fidelity difference between 16 and 24 bits. If you want Lo
Fi, use a cassette recorder.


I don't have a cassette recorder, but even if I did, I'd still use my
digital equipment.

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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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adam79 wrote:
On 10/4/12 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:

There is no fidelity difference between 16 and 24 bits. If you want Lo
Fi, use a cassette recorder.


I don't have a cassette recorder, but even if I did, I'd still use my
digital equipment.

There are emulators... ;-)

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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On 10/4/12 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:

There is no fidelity difference between 16 and 24 bits. If you want Lo
Fi, use a cassette recorder.


I don't have a cassette recorder, but even if I did, I'd still use my
digital equipment.


Then, you probably don't really want lo fi.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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adam79 adam79 is offline
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On 10/4/12 6:25 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
On 10/4/12 2:16 PM, Don Pearce wrote:

There is no fidelity difference between 16 and 24 bits. If you want Lo
Fi, use a cassette recorder.


I don't have a cassette recorder, but even if I did, I'd still use my
digital equipment.


Then, you probably don't really want lo fi.
--scott


Just wanna make them happy
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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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adam79 wrote:

On 10/3/12 10:45 PM, Phil W wrote:

"It [D16] contains a 16 track recorder, a 24-channel 8-bus mixer, and
effects.
When using 16 bit recording/playback:
8 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 16 tracks can be played back simultaneously.

When using 24 bit recording/playback:
4 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 8 tracks can be played back simultaneously."


They want to record live, so 24 bit ain't happening. They're a punk rock
band and want kind of a low-fi sound, so 16 bit is good enough for this
session.


I think that's not a well thought out way to think of this. The place to
get the sund you want is at the source, not in conversion. **** that
digital recorder, son, and rent a well-used cassette deck. There's your
low-fi.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri


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Ron Capik[_3_] Ron Capik[_3_] is offline
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On 10/5/2012 12:30 AM, hank alrich wrote:
adam79 wrote:

On 10/3/12 10:45 PM, Phil W wrote:

"It [D16] contains a 16 track recorder, a 24-channel 8-bus mixer, and
effects.
When using 16 bit recording/playback:
8 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 16 tracks can be played back simultaneously.

When using 24 bit recording/playback:
4 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 8 tracks can be played back simultaneously."


They want to record live, so 24 bit ain't happening. They're a punk rock
band and want kind of a low-fi sound, so 16 bit is good enough for this
session.


I think that's not a well thought out way to think of this. The place to
get the sund you want is at the source, not in conversion. **** that
digital recorder, son, and rent a well-used cassette deck. There's your
low-fi.

Somehow at this point I'm thinking GIGO. [garbage in garbage out]
==
Later...
Ron Capik
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adam79 adam79 is offline
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On 10/5/12 12:30 AM, hank alrich wrote:
adam79 wrote:

On 10/3/12 10:45 PM, Phil W wrote:

"It [D16] contains a 16 track recorder, a 24-channel 8-bus mixer, and
effects.
When using 16 bit recording/playback:
8 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 16 tracks can be played back simultaneously.

When using 24 bit recording/playback:
4 tracks can be recorded simultaneously,
and 8 tracks can be played back simultaneously."


They want to record live, so 24 bit ain't happening. They're a punk rock
band and want kind of a low-fi sound, so 16 bit is good enough for this
session.


I think that's not a well thought out way to think of this. The place to
get the sund you want is at the source, not in conversion. **** that
digital recorder, son, and rent a well-used cassette deck. There's your
low-fi.


I'm totally with ya, but we're on a real tight budget; a Reel to Reel
rental would put us deep in the RED! Got an $80 budget. Each mic is 20,
the monitor is 20, everything is pretty much 20 bucks. A reel to reel is
$40 for an eight track.
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Mike Rivers Mike Rivers is offline
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On 10/4/2012 1:45 PM, adam79 wrote:

They want to record live, so 24 bit ain't happening. They're
a punk rock band and want kind of a low-fi sound, so 16 bit
is good enough for this session.



Pssssst . . . 16-bit is good enough for any session if you
have good converters and treat them (and your audio) right.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff
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