Okay, I've read and reread all the info I could and am still having a
hard time wrapping my head around it all. What I have is this.... I
have 2 MTX Thunder 6000 10' subs in a sealed box, front door speakers,
back speakers, and a Tantrum 400.4. I'm running the back speakers off
of deck poiwer, the front speakers off of 2 channels of the amp and
currently have the other two channels bridged to the subs.

The real question is how do I maximize my performance of the subs. I'm
more interested in quality than quantity. I like to hear what I'm
supposed to be hearing rather than shake my neighbors paintings off the
wall. Now, with that said.... of course I want to maximize the bass as
well... but if I'm in the position of choosing, I'd pick sound quality
over being louder.

I'm reading about series vs. parallel wiring. I bought the subs and
amp off a friend who doesn't know anything about the equipment. I
can't find info on the amp but will assume that a PG amp will be stable
at 2 ohms and have a friend tell me it's he's pretty certain .5 ohm
would be okay too (I hope... if anyone knows different, please let me
know).

1) What way should I wire the subs and voice coils?
2) Why should I wire them that way?
3) Given what you know about this setup, what ohm value would you
suggest running the amp at?

Any other suggestions or comments are welcome!

That particular amp is stable only to 2 ohms bridged. This means, you
really have only ONE choice if you don't want to risk destroying your amp,
and trust me, YOU CAN destroy an amp this way, I've done it w/ a RF Punch
75. You should wire your subs up to present a 4 ohm load. You can do this
by wiring both voice-coils of each sub in series, and then wiring both subs
together in parallel. If you wired all four voice-coils in parallel, this
would present a 1 ohm load. Of course, this will not fully optimize the
power that can be obtained from this amp, and this is probably the source of
your frustration/confusion about this. But trust me, this will still
produce lots of good, healthy power. As you are not into "ground pounding",
I'm sure you will be more than satisfied. That is a VERY capable amp.

MOSFET

wrote in message
ups.com...
Okay, I've read and reread all the info I could and am still having a
hard time wrapping my head around it all. What I have is this.... I
have 2 MTX Thunder 6000 10' subs in a sealed box, front door speakers,
back speakers, and a Tantrum 400.4. I'm running the back speakers off
of deck poiwer, the front speakers off of 2 channels of the amp and
currently have the other two channels bridged to the subs.

The real question is how do I maximize my performance of the subs. I'm
more interested in quality than quantity. I like to hear what I'm
supposed to be hearing rather than shake my neighbors paintings off the
wall. Now, with that said.... of course I want to maximize the bass as
well... but if I'm in the position of choosing, I'd pick sound quality
over being louder.

I'm reading about series vs. parallel wiring. I bought the subs and
amp off a friend who doesn't know anything about the equipment. I
can't find info on the amp but will assume that a PG amp will be stable
at 2 ohms and have a friend tell me it's he's pretty certain .5 ohm
would be okay too (I hope... if anyone knows different, please let me
know).

1) What way should I wire the subs and voice coils?
2) Why should I wire them that way?
3) Given what you know about this setup, what ohm value would you
suggest running the amp at?

Any other suggestions or comments are welcome!

Thanks..... so there is no way to create a stable 2 ohm load to the
amp? What is the difference in reversing your suggestion..... DVC in
parallel and subs in series? Is there a schematic showing the wiring
suggestion you proposed?

My friend (who will remain nameless) was talking about loudness vs.
wattage. He said that technically, the wattage doesn't increase or
decrease when ohms go up or down.... instead, the "loudness" changes.
I couldn't argue because my electrical engineering know-how is so rusty
(I haven't really been into stereos since high school).

Thanks for the quick response.....

http://www.lalena.com/audio/faq/wiring/seriesDVC.gif

Is this the way to wire the subs in the configuration you suggested?

My friend (who will remain nameless) was talking about loudness vs.
wattage. He said that technically, the wattage doesn't increase or
decrease when ohms go up or down.... instead, the "loudness" changes.

Your friend is wrong, though that sounds pretty funny. The loudness goes
up, but the wattage doesn't? Hmmm.... I've never heard that one before. In
fact, wattage DOES go up as you lower impedance. As the name implies, you
are "impeding " the flow of current less with a lower impedance, hence, more
watts. A direct short-circuit would, of course, have an impedance of zero.
I hope this make sense, impedance is a measure of how the flow of electrons
will be "impeded" as they move from positive to negative. Impede them less,
and more current will flow.

As far as a way to present a 2 ohm impedance, I'm afraid there is no way to
do it. Sorry. This is why I always recommend to friends they consider this
BEFORE making their subwoofer purchase (or, if they bought the subs first,
before they make the amp purchase).

It makes no difference whether you wire the coils of each sub in series and
then the two subs in parallel OR if you wire the two coils of each sub in
parallel and then wire the two subs together in series. It will make no
difference as far as power or sound quality.

As far as a diagram, check out the FAQ (frequently asked questions) for this
group. Check out:

http://www.mobileaudio.com/rac-faq/

Good luck.

MOSFET

YES! Exactly right!

MOSFET

wrote in message
oups.com...
http://www.lalena.com/audio/faq/wiring/seriesDVC.gif

Is this the way to wire the subs in the configuration you suggested?

Yeah, he tends to belive he's right all the time. He's kinda like me
in the fact that he has a rather healthy does of "confidence".
Anywho... His explaination didn't make much sense to me.

Question: He ended up wiring the DVC subs series series. Claimed that
this would help "control" the subs (ie less distortion). What ohm load
am I show the amp with it wired currently and what can I expect when I
rewire it?

Question: He ended up wiring the DVC subs series series. Claimed that
this would help "control" the subs (ie less distortion). What ohm load
am I show the amp with it wired currently and what can I expect when I
rewire it?

When you say "series series", I assume you mean that all four voice coils
are connected in series. This would give you a 16 ohm impedance. That is
DEFINITELY NOT recommended (though not dangerous, of course). When you
connect it the way that diagram shows you will get a four ohm impedance and
it should QUADRUPLE your power!!! You will DEFINITELY hear a difference.

As far as a higher impedance providing more "control" than a lower
impedance, well, actually there is some truth in this, but this depends
greatly on the amplifier. That Phoenix Gold amp is a VERY good product (I
used to work at Phoenix Gold, actually) and it will sound great with a
bridged four ohm load. In other words, along with more power, there WILL
NOT be any degradation in sound quality.

MOSFET

In article . com,
wrote:

Okay, I've read and reread all the info I could and am still having a
hard time wrapping my head around it all. What I have is this.... I
have 2 MTX Thunder 6000 10' subs in a sealed box, front door speakers,
back speakers, and a Tantrum 400.4. I'm running the back speakers off
of deck poiwer, the front speakers off of 2 channels of the amp and
currently have the other two channels bridged to the subs.

The real question is how do I maximize my performance of the subs. I'm
more interested in quality than quantity. I like to hear what I'm
supposed to be hearing rather than shake my neighbors paintings off the
wall. Now, with that said.... of course I want to maximize the bass as
well... but if I'm in the position of choosing, I'd pick sound quality
over being louder.

I'm reading about series vs. parallel wiring. I bought the subs and
amp off a friend who doesn't know anything about the equipment. I
can't find info on the amp but will assume that a PG amp will be stable
at 2 ohms and have a friend tell me it's he's pretty certain .5 ohm
would be okay too (I hope... if anyone knows different, please let me
know).

1) What way should I wire the subs and voice coils?
2) Why should I wire them that way?
3) Given what you know about this setup, what ohm value would you
suggest running the amp at?

Any other suggestions or comments are welcome!


IMO The enclosure the subs are in will have more of an effect on how
they sound, all else being equal.

However the correct impedance will give you the power for that
enclosure, while keeping your amp alive.

If each VC is 4ohm, wire them series-parallel. Series per driver,
parallel that pair.

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*

In article ,
"MOSFET" wrote:

Question: He ended up wiring the DVC subs series series. Claimed that
this would help "control" the subs (ie less distortion). What ohm load
am I show the amp with it wired currently and what can I expect when I
rewire it?

When you say "series series", I assume you mean that all four voice coils
are connected in series. This would give you a 16 ohm impedance. That is
DEFINITELY NOT recommended (though not dangerous, of course). When you
connect it the way that diagram shows you will get a four ohm impedance and
it should QUADRUPLE your power!!! You will DEFINITELY hear a difference.

As far as a higher impedance providing more "control" than a lower
impedance, well, actually there is some truth in this, but this depends
greatly on the amplifier. That Phoenix Gold amp is a VERY good product (I
used to work at Phoenix Gold, actually) and it will sound great with a
bridged four ohm load. In other words, along with more power, there WILL
NOT be any degradation in sound quality.

MOSFET



I concur. Most name brands of amplifier nowadays will run into lower
impedances without affecting SQ, thermal problems are another matter.

--
Cyrus

*coughcasaucedoprodigynetcough*

Thanks for all your info. I found it very very helpful. Here's
another question:

What advantage would I get (besides using a smaller enclosure) from
using an isobaric configuration on the subs? I know this would require
a large amount of box work and precise measuring.... but would I
actually hear a difference (assuming I don't use a bandpass box)?

What advantage would I get (besides using a smaller enclosure) from
using an isobaric configuration on the subs? I know this would require
a large amount of box work and precise measuring.... but would I
actually hear a difference (assuming I don't use a bandpass box)?


Precise measuring? I could be wrong, but my understanding with isobaric
enclosures is that you just halve the enclosure size.

As far as advantages, well, you already named it, a smaller enclosure.
IMHO, isobaric deigns are not very practical UNLESS you have a VERY small
car OR you have LOADS of money. I mean, think about it, you are effectively
cutting your cone area in half!!! So your bass volume WILL be lower using
two subwoofers in an isobaric configuration versus two subwoofers mounted
rationally. Of course, you will only need halve the box volume of one
single subwoofer. Now if you had money to burn you could buy two or four
more subs and mount four or six in an isobaric configuration. That would
give you back your lost SPL's.

MOSFET

Yeah.... I'm just thinking....

What I meant was I couldn't use a sealed box. It would have to be
vented and/or bandpass. Then I'd have to make sure vent volume, magnet
volume, vent location, etc. were all in place to optimize the setup.
Just thinking.... hehehe....

I imagine that control of the cone would be alot better, thus a cleaner
sound but you're right about the volume. I'd lose volume..... I'm
hoping that I have enough wiring and connections left to try out the
DVC series, subs parallel setup. Hmmm... I'll let you know how it
sounds!!!

I imagine that control of the cone would be alot better, thus a cleaner
sound but you're right about the volume.

Yes, you're right. Control of the cone would be better, but would this be a
difference you could hear? I don't know. Frankly, I haven't heard too many
isobaric configurations in my life and NONE in the last 10 years!!!

Isobaric configurations were much more popular back in the day before they
started building woofers that worked in very small enclosures. Back in the
late eighties to early 90's, most woofers large woofers (10", 12", 15")
required a 2-3 cubic foot box for even a sealed enclosure, 3-5 for a ported
enclosure!!! So back then, isobaric enclosures made a whole lot of sense.
But over the last 10 years, the industry has moved towards woofers that work
best in small enclosures, and the isobaric design just isn't practical.
Frankly, with a high quality woofer, I really doubt you will hear any SQ
improvement in mounting two woofers in an isobaric configuration. But what
you WILL hear is a drop in SPL as your effective cone area is cut in half.

Anyway, that's my $.02,

MOSFET

I imagine that control of the cone would be alot better, thus a cleaner
sound but you're right about the volume.

You know, on second thought you very well might notice a SQ improvement with
an isobaric configuration. Since the two combined woofers are essentially
forming a single woofer, many of the performance characteristics (like the
T/S specs) would be completely different, in a sense like a completely
different woofer. I suppose this would make for noticeable differences in
SQ.

MOSFET

Hmmm..... I might play around w/ it at a later date..... but probably
not.....

Since I've been outta the field for so long, what brand mids and highs
are acclaimed as high end? I suppose that goes along w/ deck, amps,
x-overs, and EQ's. Are the same big players around from the 90's (when
I was into it)? What new technology has come out since then that I
should be aware of (besides the obvious MP3, iPod, etc)?

Hmmm..... I might play around w/ it at a later date..... but probably
not.....

Since I've been outta the field for so long, what brand mids and highs
are acclaimed as high end? I suppose that goes along w/ deck, amps,
x-overs, and EQ's. Are the same big players around from the 90's (when
I was into it)? What new technology has come out since then that I
should be aware of (besides the obvious MP3, iPod, etc)?

Since I've been outta the field for so long, what brand mids and highs
are acclaimed as high end? I suppose that goes along w/ deck, amps,
x-overs, and EQ's. Are the same big players around from the 90's (when
I was into it)? What new technology has come out since then that I
should be aware of (besides the obvious MP3, iPod, etc)?

Many of the same players are still around from the nineties. MB Quart still
makes quality mids and tweets, but I recently switched from MB Quart 6.5"s
(from a set of PSD216's) to the JL VR series. I believe JL makes better
midrange speakers and I have heard GREAT things about their new tweeters. I
would definitely check out JL. Focal and Dynaudio are generally considered
the cream of the crop when it comes to high-end separates these days.
Diamond, Boston, Polk, MB Quart, and JL also make great products (though I
would have to say that MB Quart is NOT the end-all-be-all it was in the
nineties). With speakers, the best advice I can POSSIBLY give you is to
listen to as many speakers as you can (with YOUR type of music) before
making your purchasing decision.

As far as changes in speaker technology, I would say the biggest changes
have been in the world of subwoofers. I'm sure you can't help but notice
that subwoofers have become much, much larger, and much, much more powerful.

As far as amplifiers, they have continuously gotten more powerful and
cheaper as the years have gone by (which is GREAT for us consumes). Class D
amps have become de-rigueur for driving high-power subs.

However, overall, I would say the BIGGEST change in the autosound industry
has occurred in the HU (head unit) market. Today, your HU can perform all
the functions that used to take a whole bunch of extra processors. Besides
playing CD's and MP3's, your HU is also a line-driver, X-over, equalizer,
time-alignment processor, spatial-enhancer, and the list goes on and on.
It's truly wonderful to have all these functions right at your fingertips,
and it makes installations much more simple. HU's have also gotten much
cooler to look at. With the addition of LCD screens and other advanced
display technologies, the days of hard to read LED segmented letters is
OVER. Alpine is still a GREAT manufacturer of HU's. I am on my 3rd
Alpine, the 9853, and I simply LOVE it. It has ALL the functions I could
possibly want, all in one neat little package. Eclipse, Kenwood, Sony, and
Pioneer also make very good HU's.

Great.... this is all rekindling the child like audiophile in me! I
just may invest in some higher end equip when I have the money. So,
I'm not into the ear piercing highs that some tweets give.... I like
accurate reproduction of sound with emphasis on good soundstage. I
would like to "experience" the music rather than just listen to it. I
seem to remember MB's being rather bright in their sound. I'm using an
old pair of DDDrive Alpine 6.5 separates (minus the tweets that only
work intermitently).

What do you think of your own setup? What were you aiming for when you
purchased your equipment and how satisfied are you now? What about
buying used equipment? Any suggestions besides the obvious caveat
emptor?

What do you think of your own setup? What were you aiming for when you
purchased your equipment and how satisfied are you now? What about
buying used equipment? Any suggestions besides the obvious caveat
emptor?

I must say that I HAVE NEVER been as pleased with my system as I am right
now!! I have had COUNTLESS different systems over the last 17 years
(including a really clean professionally installed system in a '95 Maxima
back in the middle nineties that won me many trophies at local IASCA shows).
My gear consists of an Alpine 9853, a Clarion EQ750, a vintage RF Punch
225.2 (112.5 x 2 RMS) driving a pair of JL VR 650 6.5" midbass drivers; a
Jensen (the model number escapes me) amp (100 watts x 2 RMS) driving my
tweets up front, a pair of MB Quart 1" PSD's; a Prestige Model PA-440 4
channel amp (4 X 50 RMS) bridged to two channels driving my rear-fill, a set
of Kenwood KFC-X167 coaxials; a Soundstream Reference 700 bridged driving a
pair of MTX MXS 12" subs in a ported enclosure. I use four caps in my
system (I just bought a bigger one for my sub-amp, but it is not installed
yet) for a total of 3.5 farads, and a Optima Yellow-top battery. I use all
Phoenix Gold twisted pair interconnects, and 4 gauge Monster Cable power
wire. Of course, there's also lots of sound dampening material applied
throughout the car. The thing that I think makes this system so great is
the amount of power I have, especially because of bi-amping my front
separates. One thing I have learned over the years is that there is no
substitute for power. Lot's of power IS NOT about blasting at ear-bleeding
levels. Lots of power allows my system to sound INCREDIBLY dynamic, punchy
and clear even at moderate to high volume levels. I have this incredibly
OPEN sound that NEVER sounds compressed no matter what volume I play it at.
Every instrument is always perfectly etched in the soundstage. The
time-correction in my Alpine also helps achieve this great sound. For the
FIRST time in any of my systems, I FINALLY have a rock-solid center-image
thanks to time-correction.

I guess if I had to choose a weak link in my system, I would have to say
it's my tweeters. I like them, but I do notice that they can be a bit
fatiguing after extended listening periods. Now, at FIRST they SOUND
incredible with frequency response flat out to 22kHz. But those titanium
tweeters can be a bit harsh after a while. I will likely change out my
tweeters in the next six months.

I have been VERY lucky buying used equipment. You can find INCREDIBLE deals
on Ebay and it is possible to build a high-end system, completely from
scratch, for less than $1000 buying used equipment on Ebay. I would say
about half my gear is new (like my HU and MB Quarts), and half my gear is
used.

You can see some pictures of my system at:

http://www428.pair.com/mosfet/mtx.html

Good luck on your own system. If you have any other questions, let me know!

MOSFET

Oh, I forgot, I also have video as well. I use a Magnavox portable DVD
player as my video source. It fits PEFECTLY in the middle dash compartment
of my Suburu Forester (I swear, it looks like it was MADE for a portable DVD
player!), and plugs right into my Alpine. I frequently play music videos in
my car instead of CD's and MP3's. Of course, I don't WATCH the videos while
I drive (OK, I sneak looks). I also have a 128MB small portable MP3 player
that I use when I want to jsut take several songs from my computer to my car
WITHOUT burning an entire disc. It also resides in that middle dash
compartment and plugs into the Alpine in the same place as the DVD player.

MOSFET
MOSFET

Sounds great.... lots of power with some stuff I wouldn't have expected
(coaxials and Jensen?). What do you know about high end cars and
installs? I "may" be in the market for a '03 Mercedes later this year.
If I do make a purchase, I'm thinking of putting in some audio stuff
(and if I can afford it, video). I know that MB will have their own
stuff like Bose or something.... I've heard that some shops won't even
work on higher end cars. If I do put some stufff in it, I'm thinking
high quality separates in front (6.5's, 5's, and tweets), separates in
the back deck, high quality sub(s), and a couple high end amps. I
don't know the factory speaker locations, how many, or how it's wired.
Do you have any experience with this stuff? Also, what can I do and
keep a car under warranty?

Sounds great.... lots of power with some stuff I wouldn't have expected
(coaxials and Jensen?).

I don't blieve coaxials for rear-fill is that unusual. The great thing
about time correction is that by delaying my rear-fill about 9 milliseconds,
you can have high-freuqnecies and it still sounds like everything is coming
from the front. The ear has this ability to zero in on the sounds that come
in first as the source of the sound, so I can actually have my rear-fills up
louder than I typically would, yet all the sound seems clearly in front. I
also run my rear-fill in mono, I think this helps my imaging. If I take the
rear-fill away, the soundstage seems to drop, with the rear-fill the
soundstage seems at be centered at the top of the dash, just perfect.

One thing I've found with amplifiers over the years is that THEY ALL SOUND
THE SAME. This is true ESPECIALLY in a car where any minute tonal
characteristic will be lost to road and engine noise. I have been VERY
happy with my Jensen and Prestige amps, but I know, they don't exactly
scream "high-quality". But, if you notice, both of these amps perform what
I would call "light-duty", powering the tweeters and rear-fill. For the
REAL WORK (midbass and subs), I use the better made 8 year old Fosgate amp
and the 10 year old Soundstream amp. These are incredible amps, with loads
of clean power always on tap.

Coincidentally, I have owned 3 Mercedes in my life and had big systems in
all of them. This was in the early 90's and these were 80's style Mercedes.
The most difficult issue with these cars was that there was a fuel tank
located BETWEEN the trunk and passenger cabin. This made a trunk-mounted
subwoofer system difficult. What I did was use a duct that ran up through
that "FIrst Aid Kit" that Mercedes always had in the back. Now I'm sure
this has changed by now, but these cars were built with 6"x4" speakers in
the dash. I used Boston Accoustics coaxials of this size in the dash.

But I really don't know much about the newer Mercedes, though I have always
thought that Mercedes is an AWESOME car to build a system in as the cabins
are always built to be so quite, perfect to hear a good system.

MOSFET

What do you know about high end cars and
installs? I "may" be in the market for a '03 Mercedes later this year.
If I do make a purchase, I'm thinking of putting in some audio stuff
(and if I can afford it, video). I know that MB will have their own
stuff like Bose or something.... I've heard that some shops won't even
work on higher end cars. If I do put some stufff in it, I'm thinking
high quality separates in front (6.5's, 5's, and tweets), separates in
the back deck, high quality sub(s), and a couple high end amps. I
don't know the factory speaker locations, how many, or how it's wired.
Do you have any experience with this stuff? Also, what can I do and
keep a car under warranty?