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Jayson Peterson
 
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Default trying to "reverse engineer" sounds with great difficulty!

Perhaps you pros could give me some advice and tips. I have been trying to
recreate some of the sound effects from an old tv soundtrack I have. I
can't just record directly because the original tracks are too noisy (and
noise filtering hasn't worked), plus I don't want the new sounds to be an
exact copy. The way I have been trying to go about my recreation is to
attempt to match the original frequencies of the sound with modern musical
instruments of a similar pattern. The original track is used as a "vocoder"
for the modern instrument, which tends to filter out everything but
"portions" of the original sound, depending on "how close" the modern
instrument notes are to the original. However, this very slow approach has
been hit and miss. The original tracks have so many harmonics that I can't
seem to mix the modern instruments properly to "match" it. This has been a
project I have been working on for quite some time and I am running out of
time. I've tried various other things... convolution, which didn't get me
anywhere, noise reduction applied somewhat like the above with the vocoder
(but still not getting too far), etc.etc. Someone once told me that it is
impossible to recreate an orchestra without the orchestra (in other words,
it is next to impossible to do all digitally), and I am starting to believe
that. So, how do I do this. I have an original tv sound that's very weak
on a tv soundtrack; I need to recreate this as closely as possible but I
don't have access to an orchestra or synth, but I do have an electric guitar
and some music samples. How in the world can I figure out or calculate the
notes and harmonics I need for the recreation? When I look at FFT graphs of
the original sound effect, there are just too many notes to count; when I
try to apply the aforementioned methods, I tend to make a small "dent" in
the graph and that's all with the sound very very flat. This has become
quite frustrating and I wish there was a better way. Perhaps there is which
is why I am asking.

Thanks, in advance, for any tips or advice.

Jayson Peterson


  #2   Report Post  
Laurence Payne
 
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On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:28:13 GMT, "Jayson Peterson"
wrote:

I have been trying to
recreate some of the sound effects from an old tv soundtrack I have. I
can't just record directly because the original tracks are too noisy (and
noise filtering hasn't worked), plus I don't want the new sounds to be an
exact copy. The way I have been trying to go about my recreation is to
attempt to match the original frequencies of the sound with modern musical
instruments of a similar pattern.


This is a musical score you're trying to recreate? Your question
doesn't use the word "music" :-) Perhaps it should. This may be a
job for a musician, not an engineer.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
  #3   Report Post  
Jayson Peterson
 
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"Laurence Payne" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 00:28:13 GMT, "Jayson Peterson"
wrote:

I have been trying to
recreate some of the sound effects from an old tv soundtrack I have. I
can't just record directly because the original tracks are too noisy (and
noise filtering hasn't worked), plus I don't want the new sounds to be an
exact copy. The way I have been trying to go about my recreation is to
attempt to match the original frequencies of the sound with modern

musical
instruments of a similar pattern.


This is a musical score you're trying to recreate? Your question
doesn't use the word "music" :-) Perhaps it should. This may be a
job for a musician, not an engineer.


Well, I think that's the point of my question: sound redesign. The original
effects were, in fact, musical in nature but the instruments were modified
to produce the effect required. I am trying to recreate the effects by, in
essence, using a "fingerprint" to rescore modern instruments to produce the
desired effect. However, so far my efforts have not been successful which
is why I was looking for suggestions. I would have thought that at least
one digital application might suffice like vocoding, convolution, etc but so
far not. My next step, unless I get some suggestions here, is to use two
speakers to try and zero beat the frequencies of the original audio effect
and the instrument note I want to use. If I zero beat enough frequencies, I
may end up producing a similar sound to the original but this is going to
take a LOT of time.

Jayson


CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect



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U-CDK_CHARLES\\Charles
 
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On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:46:26 GMT, Jayson Peterson
wrote:

job for a musician, not an engineer.


Well, I think that's the point of my question: sound redesign. The original
effects were, in fact, musical in nature but the instruments were modified
to produce the effect required. I am trying to recreate the effects by, in
essence, using a "fingerprint" to rescore modern instruments to produce the
desired effect. However, so far my efforts have not been successful which
is why I was looking for suggestions. I would have thought that at least
one digital application might suffice like vocoding, convolution, etc but so
far not. My next step, unless I get some suggestions here, is to use two
speakers to try and zero beat the frequencies of the original audio effect
and the instrument note I want to use. If I zero beat enough frequencies, I
may end up producing a similar sound to the original but this is going to
take a LOT of time.


You might want to give us some specific examples. Lotsa things are much
simpler than you might think.

Listen to the Rite of Spring, you might think, "How does he make an oboe
sound like that?" when really it's a bassoon played up in the nosebleed
range.

What you're proposing doing is HORRIBLY complex, and probably not worth
the effort. But the solution you seek may, in fact, be much simpler
than any you've considered up until now.

  #5   Report Post  
Jayson Peterson
 
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"U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" "Charles wrote in message
news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03...
On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:46:26 GMT, Jayson Peterson
wrote:

job for a musician, not an engineer.


Well, I think that's the point of my question: sound redesign. The

original
effects were, in fact, musical in nature but the instruments were

modified
to produce the effect required. I am trying to recreate the effects by,

in
essence, using a "fingerprint" to rescore modern instruments to produce

the
desired effect. However, so far my efforts have not been successful

which
is why I was looking for suggestions. I would have thought that at

least
one digital application might suffice like vocoding, convolution, etc

but so
far not. My next step, unless I get some suggestions here, is to use

two
speakers to try and zero beat the frequencies of the original audio

effect
and the instrument note I want to use. If I zero beat enough

frequencies, I
may end up producing a similar sound to the original but this is going

to
take a LOT of time.


You might want to give us some specific examples. Lotsa things are much
simpler than you might think.


From what I can tell, the sounds may in fact be something as simple as a
musical instrument "modulated" or combined. Unfortunately, the samples
would be pretty long but I'll try and see if I can compress them
sufficiently.

Listen to the Rite of Spring, you might think, "How does he make an oboe
sound like that?" when really it's a bassoon played up in the nosebleed
range.

What you're proposing doing is HORRIBLY complex, and probably not worth
the effort.


Yes it is. I've actually been down the path many times. I could literally
zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did in
the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One
thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating harmonics
that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making progress.

But the solution you seek may, in fact, be much simpler
than any you've considered up until now.


That's what I'm hoping for.

Jayson




  #6   Report Post  
Laurence Payne
 
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Default

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 11:46:26 GMT, "Jayson Peterson"
wrote:

The original
effects were, in fact, musical in nature but the instruments were modified
to produce the effect required. I am trying to recreate the effects by, in
essence, using a "fingerprint" to rescore modern instruments to produce the
desired effect. However, so far my efforts have not been successful which
is why I was looking for suggestions.


We're not going to get any further until we hear what you're talking
about, I think. What old TV program? Can you post some examples on
a web page?

I suspect there may be a more simple solution to this than you
envisage.

CubaseFAQ www.laurencepayne.co.uk/CubaseFAQ.htm
"Possibly the world's least impressive web site": George Perfect
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Bob Ross
 
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"Jayson Peterson" wrote in message hlink.net...
"U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" "Charles wrote in message
news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03...



From what I can tell, the sounds may in fact be something as simple as a
musical instrument "modulated" or combined.


There's a recurring event in a piece from Mike Gibbs _The Only Chrome
Waterfall Orchestra_ album that used to fascinate me for its sonic
complexity & unique timbral signature. Turns out to be a tenor sax & a
flugelhorn playing two notes a half-step apart at the extreme upper
end of their register. Ask an electronic sound designer to recreate
that, and they'd be tweaking knobs & parameters for months, trying to
replicate the intricate twisting mobius strip of harmonics that
results. Ask an arranger to recreate that and they'd reach for their
phonebook & have a couple Local 802 horn players nail it in 5 minutes.


I could literally
zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did in
the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One
thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating harmonics
that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making progress.


What is this verb "to zero beat" that you're using? I've never heard
that expression.
  #8   Report Post  
Jayson Peterson
 
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Default


"Bob Ross" wrote in message
om...
"Jayson Peterson" wrote in message

hlink.net...
"U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" "Charles wrote in message
news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03...



From what I can tell, the sounds may in fact be something as simple as a
musical instrument "modulated" or combined.


There's a recurring event in a piece from Mike Gibbs _The Only Chrome
Waterfall Orchestra_ album that used to fascinate me for its sonic
complexity & unique timbral signature. Turns out to be a tenor sax & a
flugelhorn playing two notes a half-step apart at the extreme upper
end of their register. Ask an electronic sound designer to recreate
that, and they'd be tweaking knobs & parameters for months, trying to
replicate the intricate twisting mobius strip of harmonics that
results. Ask an arranger to recreate that and they'd reach for their
phonebook & have a couple Local 802 horn players nail it in 5 minutes.


You know, I think that's really the answer, that of having it recreated live
by players, but I can't figure out why that would be so much different than
me creating it by design? I guess the harmonics, etc combine in "live" ways
that you could never achieve in sound design.


I could literally
zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did

in
the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One
thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating harmonics
that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making

progress.


What is this verb "to zero beat" that you're using? I've never heard
that expression.


I guess you could call this phasing or shifting. Certain frequencies of
each sound tend to cancel when they are close/ identical in pitch. Changing
the one sounds phase helps cancelling much better. Once the notes of the
sound I want are matched to the original, I can use whatever notes matched.
Obviously, this is a very slow and tedious process!



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Jayson Peterson
 
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"Ben Bradley" wrote in message
...
On 4 Nov 2004 04:30:28 -0800, (Bob Ross) wrote:

"Jayson Peterson" wrote in message

hlink.net...
"U-CDK_CHARLES\Charles" "Charles wrote in

message
news:4h6id.6538$o52.820@trndny03...


I could literally
zero beat every note and then "convolve" the note to sound like it did

in
the original recording, but this takes many months to do properly. One
thing that does seem to help is if I have something generating

harmonics
that are somewhat close to the original, then I can start making

progress.


What is this verb "to zero beat" that you're using? I've never heard
that expression.


I suppose it's an old amateur radio term, to tune an oscillator to
something like a WWV transmitter standard frequency. If you listen on
a receiver, as two similar-strength frequencies get within about 10 Hz
of each other, the background noise goes in and out at the difference
frequency, so it's easy to tune an oscillator to within a fraction of
a Hz of the other. Tuning a musical instrument to a frequency standard
(or a pitch on a recording as Jayson os apparently discussing) is done
in a similar way, changing the pitch of one so it matches the other
without any 'phasing' or 'chorusing.'


That's correct and you explained it better than I did above. The
frequencies aren't phasing, they're matching. This can be done with two
different speakers, feeding one with the original signal and the other with
the sound I am trying to match to the original. Then, I change the pitch of
either until they are both matched. I guess this is old fashioned and comes
from Ham radio days, but I know in fact that sound effects from the past
have been lifted from Ham radio frequencies. There is a peculiar
modulation, for example, found within the 80 meter Ham band that is
identical to the Star Trek hand phaser sound from the 1960s series, or the
CHU Canada time station tones used in several of the original Star Wars
movies.

Jayson

-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley


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