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#1
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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A little help for a newbie?
Hi,
I recently picked up a Grundig console stereo with hi fi. It turns on and I can get reception, but makes loud popping noises when I switch between bands. Also, after running for a few minutes the sound starts to go in and out and will sometimes die altogether. I'd like to get it repaired so that at least the FM band works consistently. Due to the size however, I'd prefer a house call or do the repair myself. But I don't know where to begin in diagnosing what is wrong. Can anyone help me out here? I'm in Arlington, VA outside of DC. The following on EBay is the same (or very similar) radio, although housed in a different console. http://tinyurl.com/jnaob Will trade freshly roasted (home roasted) coffee in exchange for your repair or diagnosing expertise. Thanks Chris |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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A little help for a newbie?
Peter Wieck wrote: These commonly suffer from "lazy cathode", the radio being left on AM or SW all the time with the tube hot and not emitting, contaminating the cathode... whether this is the exact process, it is certainly a common result. You mean no anode ( plate ) volts ? Graham |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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A little help for a newbie?
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#5
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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A little help for a newbie?
Eeyore wrote: Peter Wieck wrote: These commonly suffer from "lazy cathode", the radio being left on AM or SW all the time with the tube hot and not emitting, contaminating the cathode... whether this is the exact process, it is certainly a common result. You mean no anode ( plate ) volts ? Graham Yes. The filament is hot, but no other voltage is applied. Many AM/FM Zeniths with the same tube suffered from the same failure for the same reason. Occasionally, one can overheat the tube and get it to operate, but that is iffy at best. Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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A little help for a newbie?
Peter Wieck wrote: Eeyore wrote: Peter Wieck wrote: These commonly suffer from "lazy cathode", the radio being left on AM or SW all the time with the tube hot and not emitting, contaminating the cathode... whether this is the exact process, it is certainly a common result. You mean no anode ( plate ) volts ? Yes. The filament is hot, but no other voltage is applied. Many AM/FM Zeniths with the same tube suffered from the same failure for the same reason. Occasionally, one can overheat the tube and get it to operate, but that is iffy at best. I follow you. Graham |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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A little help for a newbie?
Eeyore said:
These commonly suffer from "lazy cathode", the radio being left on AM or SW all the time with the tube hot and not emitting, contaminating the cathode... whether this is the exact process, it is certainly a common result. You mean no anode ( plate ) volts ? Yes. The filament is hot, but no other voltage is applied. Many AM/FM Zeniths with the same tube suffered from the same failure for the same reason. Occasionally, one can overheat the tube and get it to operate, but that is iffy at best. I follow you. There's also something called "Sleeping Sickness" where the reverse may cause trouble as well. .. Here's a post by DesertBob from a while ago about this subject: [quote] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob, are you sure "Sleeping sickness" also occurs when B+ is applied without "filament" power? I never heard of that before, although that clearly doesn't mean it doesn't happen. snip Yes, it does! I witnessed this happen one time which resulted in an supervisor earning a little unpaid vacation time. Old multiplex equipment associated with Types J, K and L carrier systems used by AT&T's various companies built in the '40s and '50s used basically two tubes...the 311B triode, and the 310A sharp cutoff pentode, essentially a five prong, 5 V filament 6C6, for anything below the mastergroup MUX level. Above that, the 404A (basically a 5V 6AK5) and the 417A single triode were used for mastergroup gain and stacking. One day, a migration to IC-based equipment on another floor occurred in our office, the largest carrier office in the US, rendering an entire floor's worth of antique channel modems, group demods, supergroup demods and all associated equipment such as carrier supplies to be relegated to "spare" status. A transmission man working that floor, trying to earn a few "brownie" points, disconnected all the -24V filament battery at the BDFB to all this gear. Laziness and timidity precluded him from removing the +130 and +315 plate supplies. Thus, over 750 311B and 310A tubes were left in situ with their usual B+ on the plates and cold filaments. About three months later, a surge in traffic demand prompted the circuit provision bureau to reassign new multiplex facilities to this equipment, and within a short lead time. When such work happens, the "circuit order" worker tests the gear both directions, sets levels as appropriate and checks for basic transmission impediments. In this case, the equipment didn't pass tone anywhere and wouldn't mod or demod anything at all, and a trip to the BDFB found boxes of 1 1/3 amp grasshopper fuses all placed neatly on the floor in front of the fuse bay. After replacing all the filament supply fuses, the equipment still failed, but some of it would pass modulated/demodulated signal, but at bad levels and with not nearly enough gain to meet specifications. After some checking, they called me down to try to figure what happened. Western Electric gear from that era used an "in service" tube test regimen that looked basically at plate and filament current and "filament activity" (an old term that really meant "cathode activity" in anything other than direct heated tubes.) The in service tests showed acceptable filament current, but the plate current was either gone or very weak. In cases where there was at least some plate current, dropping the filament current 10% wouldn't cause a dip in the plate current...odd. A trip to the Hickok Cardmatic (KS version, of course) showed all the tubes on the entire floor to be "dead" for Gm. That's when the "brownie" said, "Oh...well, I took all the filament fuses out of everything to save power. I reported it to my boss, and he put an attaboy in my folder." A little investigation proved this to be true, and the supervisor was given some time off for being an idiot. A look at the Bell System Practices relating to vacuum tubes specifically stated that at no time should any tube of any configuration, except for cold cathode tubes, be allowed to stand with B+ on any element without the filament being hot. Some further investigation with the folks at the Littleton, CO WECO tube plant confirmed that running any tube with the plates energized and no filament will cause the same, or worse, symptoms as "sleeping sickness" generally attributed to having a tube run in cutoff for long periods of time. In short, what happens in either case of "sleeping sickness" is that the plate winds up acting as a getter, thus becoming unreceptive to electron reception from the cathode after being plated with contaminents within the envelope. That explained immediately why the tubes, while testing bad for Gm, tested good for cathode activity. This was further confirmed by the fact that newer tubes were still at least conducting something, while tubes that were some 30-40 years old were completely dead on test, although the records showed their last "in service" current test to be well within specs. Conversations with retiring engineers at the tube plant confirmed that no "real life" vacuum tube had a very good vacuum in it, and even if it had one, it would be partially destroyed during the initial aging process by gasification of the tungsten on the filament and thorium from the hot plates. That's why tubes have getters in them, after all. As the fellow told me, "You cut off electron flow, and that plate makes a really attractive getter...the higher the B+, the more it "gets!" Add to this that the cathode, grids and filaments are all at or near ground potential, and you see how this can happen to the plates. In the final tally for this goof, over 350 310A tubes, at $150 a pop, and 200 some odd 311Bs, at $75 a pop, had to be replaced on an emergency basis. At the time, Western Electric was getting out of tube manufacturing altogether, and the assembly and aging lines for the old ST envelope tubes were out of commission while the equipment was being sold to Richardson Electronics. As it turned out, a canvass of toll offices across the country had to be done to mine every available 310A and 311B, even old "pulls" from retired equipment, to get the MUX gear back into service. As it was, the due date for the facility additions was jeopardized by over two months, and the carrier group responsible for the gear (ours) had to buy all new Richardson tubes for the offices which gave up their spares. Total cost of the fiasco: over $130,000. There was little solace in the fact that the removal of the filament battery saved about $500 in power costs. To add insult to injury, the equipment only carried the service for another six months before being finally retired and scrapped. "Audiophools" worrying about "cathode stripping" has nothing whatever to do with "sleeping sickness." I've yet to see any "audiophool" who actually knows how a tube works, anyway. You have to expect this from people who refer to audio phenomina as "air," "stage," "detail," "crispness" and other assorted laughable terms. dB Sidebar: On that particular floor resided many old pieces of gear from the 1930s, including bays of voice order wire equipment associated with long gone J and K carrier systems. In them were rows of bayonet based 101D triodes and 201As, most dating from the 1930s, some from the '40s. All tested good when pulled after 45+ years of continuous service. I shudder to think what these old things would've brought today on fraudBay. The secret to long tube life at the phone company? Running filaments 10% below rated voltage and excellent quality elements. The Richardson replacements which came later were nowhere near the quality of any old WECO tube, and WECO tubes made in the early '80s were almost as bad. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [/ quote] -- "Due knot trussed yore spell chequer two fined awl miss steaks." |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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A little help for a newbie?
Peter Wieck wrote: Eeyore wrote: Peter Wieck wrote: These commonly suffer from "lazy cathode", the radio being left on AM or SW all the time with the tube hot and not emitting, contaminating the cathode... whether this is the exact process, it is certainly a common result. This was a common problem with earlier tube computers which used standard tubes. I believe the later tube varients developed for computers had modifications to the cathode formulation to prevent lazy cathode, as well as reliability, etc. Bob H. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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A little help for a newbie?
Bob H. wrote:
Peter Wieck wrote: Eeyore wrote: Peter Wieck wrote: These commonly suffer from "lazy cathode", the radio being left on AM or SW all the time with the tube hot and not emitting, contaminating the cathode... whether this is the exact process, it is certainly a common result. This was a common problem with earlier tube computers which used standard tubes. I believe the later tube varients developed for computers had modifications to the cathode formulation to prevent lazy cathode, as well as reliability, etc. From the E88CC data sheet: "The E88CC ... will maintain its emission capabilities after long periods of operation under cutoff conditions." |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tubes
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A little help for a newbie?
Hmmm... You guys are all speaking Greek to me. Is there a good basic
beginner's book for this sort of thing that I could pick up at the library? I have almost zero electronics knowledge. I know the basic elements from Engineering 101, but that's about it. I'm in Arlington, VA and I bought the 'beast' off of Craigslist. Thanks chris Peter Wieck wrote: wrote: Hi, I recently picked up a Grundig console stereo with hi fi. It turns on and I can get reception, but makes loud popping noises when I switch between bands. Also, after running for a few minutes the sound starts to go in and out and will sometimes die altogether. I'd like to get it repaired so that at least the FM band works consistently. Due to the size however, I'd prefer a house call or do the repair myself. Can't drink coffee... violently allergic (I get violent, not sick). But my wife does. OK. Where are you? Did you snag this beast recently at Kutztown? Start with cleaning the bejesus out of the controls. Next, acquire a 6AQ8 (or several) (US-sub for ECC85) and swap it out. This tube is one of the most peculiar ever made in terms of what works in which radio, so you may have to try a couple. Bluntly, this may be all you need. If this fails, then follow Sander's advice. On no account follow Bret's advice, it ain't nohow rocket science, and these radios are rather well built if not overly meddled with by well-meaning amateurs. It MAY need recapping in any case, but don't go down that road until you have exhausted all other means and have the diagosis confirmed. Keep also in mind that a complete recapping will require re-alignment, both of AM and FM for best performance. Then you will need to trot out Bret's instruments for the FM side. If you are getting sound at all, it indicates filthy controls and a weak 6AQ8/ECC85. These commonly suffer from "lazy cathode", the radio being left on AM or SW all the time with the tube hot and not emitting, contaminating the cathode... whether this is the exact process, it is certainly a common result. Enjoy, Peter Wieck Wyncote, PA |
#11
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