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#1
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Help in Arranging
I am making my own album - two actually one with my compositions and a
cover or two and a Christmas Album. I am not doing a very good job of telling musicians what I want...I'm wondering how good albums are built...in terms of (1) arranging and (2) recording process: (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - so I just say to a Pianist, put some stuff in like Hornsby or Dave Grusin - I give em scratch tracks with my versions/ideas of strings, bass, flute or what ever - but when they get here they haven't really nailed the performance - Some parts sound cool, but there are mistakes or weak spots. I can't pay them to come back twice. Now I don't have many studio musicians around Bloomington, IL - though I have used some from chicago and st. louis. So how do you get good - tight arrangements and get the musicians "in the pocket" so to speak? Do you some how chart everyting out? (2) So I'm recording this track by track - I had a drummer come in and lay down rythym tracks along with my scratch guitar and vocal; I had a pianist then add some stuff then I'll add some parts and so on...It sounds alright - just not tight - Do you recommend like doing the bass and drums together? Also Do you recommend using a click track on everything? You all have taught me how to record, eq, compress..and you have told me what to buy...now bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record! Thanks, John |
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#2
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"bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record!"
LOL......Tallent,skill,and a good set of ears. john muir wrote in message om... I am making my own album - two actually one with my compositions and a cover or two and a Christmas Album. I am not doing a very good job of telling musicians what I want...I'm wondering how good albums are built...in terms of (1) arranging and (2) recording process: (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - so I just say to a Pianist, put some stuff in like Hornsby or Dave Grusin - I give em scratch tracks with my versions/ideas of strings, bass, flute or what ever - but when they get here they haven't really nailed the performance - Some parts sound cool, but there are mistakes or weak spots. I can't pay them to come back twice. Now I don't have many studio musicians around Bloomington, IL - though I have used some from chicago and st. louis. So how do you get good - tight arrangements and get the musicians "in the pocket" so to speak? Do you some how chart everyting out? (2) So I'm recording this track by track - I had a drummer come in and lay down rythym tracks along with my scratch guitar and vocal; I had a pianist then add some stuff then I'll add some parts and so on...It sounds alright - just not tight - Do you recommend like doing the bass and drums together? Also Do you recommend using a click track on everything? You all have taught me how to record, eq, compress..and you have told me what to buy...now bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record! Thanks, John |
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#3
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"bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record!"
LOL......Tallent,skill,and a good set of ears. john muir wrote in message om... I am making my own album - two actually one with my compositions and a cover or two and a Christmas Album. I am not doing a very good job of telling musicians what I want...I'm wondering how good albums are built...in terms of (1) arranging and (2) recording process: (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - so I just say to a Pianist, put some stuff in like Hornsby or Dave Grusin - I give em scratch tracks with my versions/ideas of strings, bass, flute or what ever - but when they get here they haven't really nailed the performance - Some parts sound cool, but there are mistakes or weak spots. I can't pay them to come back twice. Now I don't have many studio musicians around Bloomington, IL - though I have used some from chicago and st. louis. So how do you get good - tight arrangements and get the musicians "in the pocket" so to speak? Do you some how chart everyting out? (2) So I'm recording this track by track - I had a drummer come in and lay down rythym tracks along with my scratch guitar and vocal; I had a pianist then add some stuff then I'll add some parts and so on...It sounds alright - just not tight - Do you recommend like doing the bass and drums together? Also Do you recommend using a click track on everything? You all have taught me how to record, eq, compress..and you have told me what to buy...now bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record! Thanks, John |
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#4
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Lots of money and good session players dosen't hurt either
Troy wrote in message news:%FDld.214509$Pl.136281@pd7tw1no... "bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record!" LOL......Tallent,skill,and a good set of ears. john muir wrote in message om... I am making my own album - two actually one with my compositions and a cover or two and a Christmas Album. I am not doing a very good job of telling musicians what I want...I'm wondering how good albums are built...in terms of (1) arranging and (2) recording process: (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - so I just say to a Pianist, put some stuff in like Hornsby or Dave Grusin - I give em scratch tracks with my versions/ideas of strings, bass, flute or what ever - but when they get here they haven't really nailed the performance - Some parts sound cool, but there are mistakes or weak spots. I can't pay them to come back twice. Now I don't have many studio musicians around Bloomington, IL - though I have used some from chicago and st. louis. So how do you get good - tight arrangements and get the musicians "in the pocket" so to speak? Do you some how chart everyting out? (2) So I'm recording this track by track - I had a drummer come in and lay down rythym tracks along with my scratch guitar and vocal; I had a pianist then add some stuff then I'll add some parts and so on...It sounds alright - just not tight - Do you recommend like doing the bass and drums together? Also Do you recommend using a click track on everything? You all have taught me how to record, eq, compress..and you have told me what to buy...now bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record! Thanks, John |
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#5
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Lots of money and good session players dosen't hurt either
Troy wrote in message news:%FDld.214509$Pl.136281@pd7tw1no... "bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record!" LOL......Tallent,skill,and a good set of ears. john muir wrote in message om... I am making my own album - two actually one with my compositions and a cover or two and a Christmas Album. I am not doing a very good job of telling musicians what I want...I'm wondering how good albums are built...in terms of (1) arranging and (2) recording process: (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - so I just say to a Pianist, put some stuff in like Hornsby or Dave Grusin - I give em scratch tracks with my versions/ideas of strings, bass, flute or what ever - but when they get here they haven't really nailed the performance - Some parts sound cool, but there are mistakes or weak spots. I can't pay them to come back twice. Now I don't have many studio musicians around Bloomington, IL - though I have used some from chicago and st. louis. So how do you get good - tight arrangements and get the musicians "in the pocket" so to speak? Do you some how chart everyting out? (2) So I'm recording this track by track - I had a drummer come in and lay down rythym tracks along with my scratch guitar and vocal; I had a pianist then add some stuff then I'll add some parts and so on...It sounds alright - just not tight - Do you recommend like doing the bass and drums together? Also Do you recommend using a click track on everything? You all have taught me how to record, eq, compress..and you have told me what to buy...now bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record! Thanks, John |
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#6
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Hi.
john muir wrote: sounds alright - just not tight - Do you recommend like doing the bass and drums together? Also Do you recommend using a click track on everything? I'm not that pro (doing all in my livingroom), but I have a few experiences with drummers. You see, sometimes, it's not all about tightness, but feeling and "groove". The few "pop-ish" tracks I made, I made the drummer play by click-track, but in the end I cut everything up and placed things myself to get the right sound. On the other hand I've done some jobs for a local rock-band, and I really noticed how the drummers groove was essential to the sound of the band. I tried click-track, and he somehow lost his feeling and there was a LOT of re-takes. In the end I told him to play like he would do on a live gig, and that worked much better. The rest of the band was used to follow him on the live-set and they did so in the "studio" too. When you've found your drummer you might consider why you use him: is it because of the nice grooveness or because you need to get real drum-sounds on your tracks. -- Mvh. Rolf Hansen |
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#7
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Hi.
john muir wrote: sounds alright - just not tight - Do you recommend like doing the bass and drums together? Also Do you recommend using a click track on everything? I'm not that pro (doing all in my livingroom), but I have a few experiences with drummers. You see, sometimes, it's not all about tightness, but feeling and "groove". The few "pop-ish" tracks I made, I made the drummer play by click-track, but in the end I cut everything up and placed things myself to get the right sound. On the other hand I've done some jobs for a local rock-band, and I really noticed how the drummers groove was essential to the sound of the band. I tried click-track, and he somehow lost his feeling and there was a LOT of re-takes. In the end I told him to play like he would do on a live gig, and that worked much better. The rest of the band was used to follow him on the live-set and they did so in the "studio" too. When you've found your drummer you might consider why you use him: is it because of the nice grooveness or because you need to get real drum-sounds on your tracks. -- Mvh. Rolf Hansen |
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#8
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How many takes are you recording of each musician? I recommend at least
three or more. Especially if you only get them to come over once. My experience has been that when you take the "best take" it may still have a foible or two in it. But if you have a couple other takes you can cut pieces from - you can patch together a complete performance that is pretty decent. Unless they keep screwing up the same spot, although I have been known to cut out say a guitar riff from the first verse and pasting it into the second verse if need be. You may then have to crossfade into and out of the pasted section from the better take. The more care you take in selecting a precise moment between notes or better between phrases the more seamless it will be (I actually rarely have to resort to crossfading). The important thing is to record all the takes of one instrumentalist without changing any recording settings so that all the takes have the same general tone which makes the cutting and pasting unnoticeable. I've been assuming you are recording digitally, but you can still do this with tape you just might not get as many takes and you'll have to manually mix them to another track to get your final track. Hope this helps SteveS |
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#9
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How many takes are you recording of each musician? I recommend at least
three or more. Especially if you only get them to come over once. My experience has been that when you take the "best take" it may still have a foible or two in it. But if you have a couple other takes you can cut pieces from - you can patch together a complete performance that is pretty decent. Unless they keep screwing up the same spot, although I have been known to cut out say a guitar riff from the first verse and pasting it into the second verse if need be. You may then have to crossfade into and out of the pasted section from the better take. The more care you take in selecting a precise moment between notes or better between phrases the more seamless it will be (I actually rarely have to resort to crossfading). The important thing is to record all the takes of one instrumentalist without changing any recording settings so that all the takes have the same general tone which makes the cutting and pasting unnoticeable. I've been assuming you are recording digitally, but you can still do this with tape you just might not get as many takes and you'll have to manually mix them to another track to get your final track. Hope this helps SteveS |
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#10
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It really depends on your drummer wether you need a click track or not. In a
perfect world you could record everyone at the same time but isolated. This is rarely feasible. Second best for me is a click track for all the instrumentalists and record drums last -IF THE DRUMMER CAN DO THIS! Not all can... Otherwise the drummer should be first then after each track is recorded try to play the guitar along with it to make sure it's workable before considering it "in the can". |
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#11
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It really depends on your drummer wether you need a click track or not. In a
perfect world you could record everyone at the same time but isolated. This is rarely feasible. Second best for me is a click track for all the instrumentalists and record drums last -IF THE DRUMMER CAN DO THIS! Not all can... Otherwise the drummer should be first then after each track is recorded try to play the guitar along with it to make sure it's workable before considering it "in the can". |
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#12
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Steve wrote:
It really depends on your drummer wether you need a click track or not. In a perfect world you could record everyone at the same time but isolated. This is rarely feasible. Second best for me is a click track for all the instrumentalists and record drums last -IF THE DRUMMER CAN DO THIS! Not all can... Otherwise the drummer should be first then after each track is recorded try to play the guitar along with it to make sure it's workable before considering it "in the can". Not many drummers can play to prerecorded tracks (some can't even play to a click track---even though it should be a similar challenge). So if you are working with a limited budget, this is where you might want spend a lot of it. Trying to find which drummer merits this money will be your challenge. I only know one or two locally who can handle it. Rob R. |
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#13
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Steve wrote:
It really depends on your drummer wether you need a click track or not. In a perfect world you could record everyone at the same time but isolated. This is rarely feasible. Second best for me is a click track for all the instrumentalists and record drums last -IF THE DRUMMER CAN DO THIS! Not all can... Otherwise the drummer should be first then after each track is recorded try to play the guitar along with it to make sure it's workable before considering it "in the can". Not many drummers can play to prerecorded tracks (some can't even play to a click track---even though it should be a similar challenge). So if you are working with a limited budget, this is where you might want spend a lot of it. Trying to find which drummer merits this money will be your challenge. I only know one or two locally who can handle it. Rob R. |
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#14
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I live in an area where there are not many 'Nashville cats' and what
I've done is find a few good players and teach them how to play for a recording. You must chart the songs at least in a basic fashion - I use the basic Nashville number system - chords, i.e.; 1, 6m, 2m, 5, etc. - but know what you want for intro, verse, chorus, turnarounds, outro, etc. You have to know where you want that arrangement to go and you have to communicate it to your players. There's nothing wrong with running a song down and having them take notes of what to play where. If there's a particular piano part that you want in a particular place show or tell the piano player that's what you want. If you want a fill that sounds like the fill in a known redording, play them that recording and tell them that you want that fill. Nothing wrong with that if it gets the point across. But, be open to what they DO play. You might be surprised and get something better than the fill you had in your head, if you're open and listening. Use a click and know where you want the tempo. But, be aware of what that tempo is doing to the groove. Or to the vocals. A couple of ticks one way or the other may make the track really gel, or not. Having people play together at the same time should increase tightness, if they are good players to begin with. If they aren't good players, you may never get it tight. If the project requires top talented players, then you have to go where those players are and spend the money to hire them. If you can't hire 'A List' players, you may have to accept the limitations of the players you do hire and work around those limitations, if possible. Not necessarily 'dumb down' your chart, but a simple arrangement played well is far better than a complicated arrangement executed poorly. Hope some of this helps. will "Troy" wrote in message news:qHDld.218657$%k.63693@pd7tw2no... Lots of money and good session players dosen't hurt either Troy wrote in message news:%FDld.214509$Pl.136281@pd7tw1no... "bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record!" LOL......Tallent,skill,and a good set of ears. john muir wrote in message om... I am making my own album - two actually one with my compositions and a cover or two and a Christmas Album. I am not doing a very good job of telling musicians what I want...I'm wondering how good albums are built...in terms of (1) arranging and (2) recording process: (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - so I just say to a Pianist, put some stuff in like Hornsby or Dave Grusin - I give em scratch tracks with my versions/ideas of strings, bass, flute or what ever - but when they get here they haven't really nailed the performance - Some parts sound cool, but there are mistakes or weak spots. I can't pay them to come back twice. Now I don't have many studio musicians around Bloomington, IL - though I have used some from chicago and st. louis. So how do you get good - tight arrangements and get the musicians "in the pocket" so to speak? Do you some how chart everyting out? (2) So I'm recording this track by track - I had a drummer come in and lay down rythym tracks along with my scratch guitar and vocal; I had a pianist then add some stuff then I'll add some parts and so on...It sounds alright - just not tight - Do you recommend like doing the bass and drums together? Also Do you recommend using a click track on everything? You all have taught me how to record, eq, compress..and you have told me what to buy...now bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record! Thanks, John |
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#15
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I live in an area where there are not many 'Nashville cats' and what
I've done is find a few good players and teach them how to play for a recording. You must chart the songs at least in a basic fashion - I use the basic Nashville number system - chords, i.e.; 1, 6m, 2m, 5, etc. - but know what you want for intro, verse, chorus, turnarounds, outro, etc. You have to know where you want that arrangement to go and you have to communicate it to your players. There's nothing wrong with running a song down and having them take notes of what to play where. If there's a particular piano part that you want in a particular place show or tell the piano player that's what you want. If you want a fill that sounds like the fill in a known redording, play them that recording and tell them that you want that fill. Nothing wrong with that if it gets the point across. But, be open to what they DO play. You might be surprised and get something better than the fill you had in your head, if you're open and listening. Use a click and know where you want the tempo. But, be aware of what that tempo is doing to the groove. Or to the vocals. A couple of ticks one way or the other may make the track really gel, or not. Having people play together at the same time should increase tightness, if they are good players to begin with. If they aren't good players, you may never get it tight. If the project requires top talented players, then you have to go where those players are and spend the money to hire them. If you can't hire 'A List' players, you may have to accept the limitations of the players you do hire and work around those limitations, if possible. Not necessarily 'dumb down' your chart, but a simple arrangement played well is far better than a complicated arrangement executed poorly. Hope some of this helps. will "Troy" wrote in message news:qHDld.218657$%k.63693@pd7tw2no... Lots of money and good session players dosen't hurt either Troy wrote in message news:%FDld.214509$Pl.136281@pd7tw1no... "bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record!" LOL......Tallent,skill,and a good set of ears. john muir wrote in message om... I am making my own album - two actually one with my compositions and a cover or two and a Christmas Album. I am not doing a very good job of telling musicians what I want...I'm wondering how good albums are built...in terms of (1) arranging and (2) recording process: (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - so I just say to a Pianist, put some stuff in like Hornsby or Dave Grusin - I give em scratch tracks with my versions/ideas of strings, bass, flute or what ever - but when they get here they haven't really nailed the performance - Some parts sound cool, but there are mistakes or weak spots. I can't pay them to come back twice. Now I don't have many studio musicians around Bloomington, IL - though I have used some from chicago and st. louis. So how do you get good - tight arrangements and get the musicians "in the pocket" so to speak? Do you some how chart everyting out? (2) So I'm recording this track by track - I had a drummer come in and lay down rythym tracks along with my scratch guitar and vocal; I had a pianist then add some stuff then I'll add some parts and so on...It sounds alright - just not tight - Do you recommend like doing the bass and drums together? Also Do you recommend using a click track on everything? You all have taught me how to record, eq, compress..and you have told me what to buy...now bring it home baby, and tell me how to make a realy good record! Thanks, John |
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#16
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"john muir" wrote in message
om... I am making my own album - two actually one with my compositions and a cover or two and a Christmas Album. I am not doing a very good job of telling musicians what I want...I'm wondering how good albums are built...in terms of (1) arranging and (2) recording process: (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - Blues guitarist Albert King had the same problem, he took night classes in music theory , so he took write for horns . I remember reading that in my guitar player mag.about 30 years ago (ouch) Peace, Ed Bridge Brooklyn N.Y. http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/ |
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#17
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"john muir" wrote in message
om... I am making my own album - two actually one with my compositions and a cover or two and a Christmas Album. I am not doing a very good job of telling musicians what I want...I'm wondering how good albums are built...in terms of (1) arranging and (2) recording process: (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - Blues guitarist Albert King had the same problem, he took night classes in music theory , so he took write for horns . I remember reading that in my guitar player mag.about 30 years ago (ouch) Peace, Ed Bridge Brooklyn N.Y. http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/ |
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#18
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"john muir" wrote in message
om... (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - so This is why you hire an arranger. Their job is to turn your ideas into charts that competent musicians can easily make sound beautiful. In most cases you'll save the cost of a great arranger in studio time and musician fees. -- Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined! 615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com |
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#19
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"john muir" wrote in message
om... (1) Arranging - I know how I want it arranged in general, but I can't write scores - so This is why you hire an arranger. Their job is to turn your ideas into charts that competent musicians can easily make sound beautiful. In most cases you'll save the cost of a great arranger in studio time and musician fees. -- Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined! 615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com |
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#20
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Separate arranging time from recording time and have the players
rehearse as a band. The natural interaction will do a lot for your arrangement naturally. Do two track recordings or even acassette recordings, listen back and make note of whatever changes you'd like to make and then start recording. |
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#21
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Separate arranging time from recording time and have the players
rehearse as a band. The natural interaction will do a lot for your arrangement naturally. Do two track recordings or even acassette recordings, listen back and make note of whatever changes you'd like to make and then start recording. |
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#22
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Getting really good advice in this post. Bob, what would be a
reasonable fee to pay for arranging 10 songs? Do you need to meet face to face with arrangers?? Any suggestions/names who do good work? Thanks, John |
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#23
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Getting really good advice in this post. Bob, what would be a
reasonable fee to pay for arranging 10 songs? Do you need to meet face to face with arrangers?? Any suggestions/names who do good work? Thanks, John |
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#24
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#25
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Linear Mode
