[upalong]

I have downloaded Audacity software but cannot understand the
instructions. i want to record internet radio broadcasts and then
transfer them to my iTunes library. Is there a step-by-step guide
anywhere to help?

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 28, 11:35 am, upalong wrote:
I have downloaded Audacity software but cannot understand the
instructions.

Don't feel bad. I've been doing this sort of thing for 40 years and I
haven't found anything surrounding Audacity that I'd call
"instructions."

Is there a step-by-step guide anywhere to help?

1. Buy and install a copy of Total Recorder ( http://totalrecorder.com/index.htm
)

2. Start the Internet broadcast using Winamp, Real Player, Media
Player, or whatever you usually use to listen to it.

3. Select "digital" as the record source for Total Recorder and start
recording. You can set a timer to stop at a specific time.

Whenever someone mentions Total Recorder around here, people usually
come up with another program or two with similar capabilities, some of
which are even free. So you might wait for those responses if you
really want to not spend any money on this project (I can understand
that).

[Richard Crowley]

"upalong" wrote ...
I have downloaded Audacity software but cannot understand the
instructions. i want to record internet radio broadcasts and then
transfer them to my iTunes library. Is there a step-by-step guide
anywhere to help?

Products like "Total Recorder" (http://www.highcriteria.com/)
are made for that kind of recording. It is not free, but it is very
cheap and worth it for that kind of application.

[Lucky[_3_]]

Audio Hijack

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 28, 1:24 pm, Lucky wrote:
Audio Hijack

Obsolete, and for Mac only. But Radio Shift might be appropriate if
the Audacity user is on a Mac. http://www.rogueamoeba.com/radioshift/

Not free, though, and more expensive than Total Recorder.

[robertjwarren]

upalong wrote:
I have downloaded Audacity software but cannot understand the
instructions. i want to record internet radio broadcasts and then
transfer them to my iTunes library. Is there a step-by-step guide
anywhere to help?
download freecorder instead and it's insanely easy to do what you want

[Lucky[_3_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On Sep 28, 1:24 pm, Lucky wrote:
Audio Hijack

Obsolete, and for Mac only.

Why is it obsolete?

But Radio Shift might be appropriate if
the Audacity user is on a Mac. http://www.rogueamoeba.com/radioshift/

Not free, though, and more expensive than Total Recorder.


I'll check it out. Paying for stuff is OK.

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 28, 5:04 pm, Lucky wrote:

Why is it obsolete?

Because it's not supported any longer.

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 28, 3:24 pm, robertjwarren wrote:

download freecorder instead and it's insanely easy to do what you want

Why would anyone want to download a program with a review like this
from cnet, usually a fairly reliable resource:

"All Freecorder can do is record sound into the MP3 format at a bit
rate of 64Kbps, but that is too low for decent music recording. The
program can't automatically name files. The Advanced Recording Options
buttons just lead to Web pages hawking the publisher's other products.
When you try to choose the 128 Kbps bit rate or check the Eliminate
Silence box, a registration reminder pops up, and another nag appears
when you exit. The actual recording interface looks nice enough, but
it unfortunately displays ads. As long as you don't care about sound
quality or convenience, Freecorder might do the job."

By the way, it's free to try, but $19.95 to buy.

They no longer make that version and there's a new version that
installs as a browser toolbar. It looks a little messy, though
apparently it's free.
http://www.applian.com/sound-recorder/

The same company has a different program, Replay A/V, that includes a
timer so you can set it up to automatically record a program at a
given time, but it's not clear how difficult (if not impossible) it is
to add a source to the pre-installed program list. It's $50.

For the PC, Total Recorder is really hard to beat. Mac users, go
fish.

[Lucky[_3_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On Sep 28, 5:04 pm, Lucky wrote:

Why is it obsolete?

Because it's not supported any longer.


Pro is. Besides, I don't need no stinkin' support!

The program you mentioned is geared specifically to stations they're
affiliated with, rather than any audio on the computer.

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

For the PC, Total Recorder is really hard to beat. Mac users, go
fish.

Okay:

http://www.cycling74.com/products/soundflower

http://www.rogueamoeba.com/audiohijack/

http://tinyurl.com/2jczzt

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Getting Older and Grumpier Gear Minion]

On Sep 28, 11:35*am, upalong wrote:
I have downloaded Audacity software but cannot understand the
instructions. i want to record internet radio broadcasts and then
transfer them to my iTunes library. Is there a step-by-step guide
anywhere to help?

I use audacity to record streaming audio.
Set your Audacity program recording preferences.
If your using a PC, select recording source
as mono mix in the sound settings.
Start your audacity recording,
Start your audio stream,
Edit the start-up lag in the recording when
the radio show is over and you have saved
the project. Good luck

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 28, 9:03 pm, Getting Older and Grumpier Gear Minion westpase-
wrote:

I use audacity to record streaming audio.
Set your Audacity program recording preferences.
If your using a PC, select recording source
as mono mix in the sound settings.
Start your audacity recording,
Start your audio stream,
Edit the start-up lag in the recording when
the radio show is over and you have saved
the project. Good luck

Geez, no wonder upalong can't understand the instructions. I can't
understand a thing you wrote there except "start your audio stream"

I guess some got it and some ain't.

[TimR]

On Sep 28, 11:10*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Sep 28, 9:03 pm, Getting Older and Grumpier Gear Minion westpase-

wrote:
I use audacity to record streaming audio.
Set your Audacity program recording preferences.
If your using a PC, select recording source
as mono mix in the sound settings.
Start your audacity recording,
Start your audio stream,
Edit the start-up lag in the recording when
the radio show is over and you have saved
the project. Good luck

Geez, no wonder upalong can't understand the instructions. I can't
understand a thing you wrote there except "start your audio stream"

I guess some got it and some ain't.

I am a long way from being an expert, or even being computer literate,
but I've been able to make Audacity work.

I can record from a microphone. Or I can record from anything going
to the PC's speakers (yes I'm stuck with a PC, probably buy a Mac next
though). You can't do both at once because you have to select your
recording source both in Audacity and in the Control Panel. Once
you've done that the rest is fairly intuitive. Basically it just
works.

Except with Vista. I've given up, I can't make Audacity work with
Vista. Well, I did get it to clip pieces off a CD playing, but I've
never got it to recognize a mike.

[Lucky[_3_]]

TimR wrote:

I can record from a microphone. Or I can record from anything going
to the PC's speakers (yes I'm stuck with a PC, probably buy a Mac next
though). You can't do both at once because you have to select your
recording source both in Audacity and in the Control Panel. Once
you've done that the rest is fairly intuitive. Basically it just
works.

I've also tried looping out and in. There is a slapback effect, probably
due to latency.


Except with Vista. I've given up, I can't make Audacity work with
Vista. Well, I did get it to clip pieces off a CD playing, but I've
never got it to recognize a mike.


Mojave!

[Moshe Goldfarb.]

On Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:42:01 -0700 (PDT), Mike Rivers wrote:

On Sep 28, 11:35 am, upalong wrote:
I have downloaded Audacity software but cannot understand the
instructions.

Don't feel bad. I've been doing this sort of thing for 40 years and I
haven't found anything surrounding Audacity that I'd call
"instructions."

Is there a step-by-step guide anywhere to help?

1. Buy and install a copy of Total Recorder ( http://totalrecorder.com/index.htm
)

2. Start the Internet broadcast using Winamp, Real Player, Media
Player, or whatever you usually use to listen to it.

3. Select "digital" as the record source for Total Recorder and start
recording. You can set a timer to stop at a specific time.

Whenever someone mentions Total Recorder around here, people usually
come up with another program or two with similar capabilities, some of
which are even free. So you might wait for those responses if you
really want to not spend any money on this project (I can understand
that).

Welcome to the world of Linux and Open Source programs Mike.

You've got 10 years on me though

I started with a Teac 3340+dbx and migrated to a Tascam 80-8(model number
may be wrong)....and went up from there.

One thing I learned along the way is that Linux and open source, as they
call it, software sucks......

You post a message complaining or asking for help about some issues and
these eggheads are asking you about what flags you used to compile the
program!!!!!

WTF?

Then there is the elitist attitude these Linux lusers seem to have....
Who the fsk cares if I can compile a kernel?
I surely don't.
I want to make music.

Forget it...
Go Reaper/Sonar/Cubase/Nuendo/Protools/etc and never look back on this Open
Source ****....

--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Please Visit www.linsux.org

[Richard Crowley]

"Lucky" wrote...
TimR wrote:
Except with Vista. I've given up, I can't make Audacity work with
Vista.

There is a long and growing list of things users ("Vista Victims")
can't get to work.

Well, I did get it to clip pieces off a CD playing, but I've
never got it to recognize a mike.


Mojave!

Yeah, that will be better. If Vista has such a poor reputation, then
change the name to "Mojave". It might be enough to distract or
confuse the users who aren't really paying attention. If there was
any doubt that Microsoft has lost its way....

[tymmytj]

Try Radiotracker, easy to use and works for recording internet radios.

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 28, 11:19 pm, TimR wrote:

I can record from a microphone. Or I can record from anything going
to the PC's speakers (yes I'm stuck with a PC, probably buy a Mac next
though). You can't do both at once because you have to select your
recording source both in Audacity and in the Control Panel. Once
you've done that the rest is fairly intuitive. Basically it just
works.

Yes, basically. g But a lot of that is dependent on the sound card
and the Windows "mixer" control panel. I have Audacity loaded on most
of my computers and use it for recording from line inputs on whatever
audio hardware is on the computer.

When the discussion of recording an on-line stream comes up (and I
can assure you, this isn't the first time) people toss it off as
simply "click on 'record what you hear' in the control panel" but I've
never had a sound card that had that choice. In the old days, I'd just
loop the analog audio around with a cable - connect the sound card's
line output to its line input, started a broadcast stream playing in a
media player, and set up Audacity to record, with all the recording
inputs muted but the line input. Clumsy but it worked.

Total Recorder's trick is that they have a driver that passes the
digital audio stream captured by the media player directly to the
recording program. That way, there are no cables to connect and no
levels to adjust.

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 29, 12:54 am, Lucky wrote:

I've also tried looping out and in. There is a slapback effect, probably
due to latency.

What you need to do with that setup is turn off record monitoring, and
there's usually a button for this in the Windows mixer, but it might
be in Audacity. If it wasn't for latency, you'd have howling feedback.

[Mike Rivers]

On Sep 29, 1:47 am, "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote:

I started with a Teac 3340+dbx and migrated to a Tascam 80-8(model
number may be wrong)....and went up from there.

I had an 80-8 as well. After I got rid of the Ampex MM-1100 which
replaced it, it's all been down from there. g Actually, I do like
my Mackie HDR24/96 (what's essentially replaced the MM-1100) and I
appreciate the capabilities of a DAW for editing material once it's
mixed down to stereo, but I still haven't really warmed to a
combination recorder/mixer/editor/processor all built out of a cheap
computer.

One thing I learned along the way is that Linux and open source, as they
call it, software sucks......

I think that open source software is really a good idea, but not
necessarily for end users. Harrison saved a lot of money in software
development when they built a digital console with a recording
"sidecar" around the open source program Ardour. But if you have a
Harrison console, you don't go to the Ardour support forum for help,
you go to Harrison.

But suppose you don't want to spend a few hundred bucks on Cubase or
Cakewalk, or you've decided that you've used your last Microsoft
operating system. You set up an Ardour system, and when you go to the
forum for assistance, while you'll be talking to people who are very
knowledgeable about the inner workings of the program and Linux, few
of them are up to date on the latest audio hardware and may not
actually be doing productive work using the program. (A few do,
actually, but they don't usually hang out on the support forum.)

I use Mozilla products for my mail and web browsing. While they come
to us pre-compiled, when I ask for help, I don't often get practical
suggestions, and usually end up either fixing the problem myself or
learning to ignore it. When it comes to recording, particularly since
I almost always work on other people's projects rather than my own
(where I don't want to waste their time), I just feel more comfortable
using hardware and software that has enough money behind it (including
some of mine) so that the seller can afford to give me support when I
need it.

Getting back to Audacity, it works OK for basic tasks. It doesn't
stick very closely with Windows (or anyone else's) user interface
conventions, so if you've used other programs, there are some things
that you have to remember to do differently, or are named differently.
But Audacity isn't the only one guilty of that.

[Getting Older and Grumpier Gear Minion]

On Sep 28, 11:10*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:
On Sep 28, 9:03 pm, Getting Older and Grumpier Gear Minion westpase-

wrote:
I use audacity to record streaming audio.
Set your Audacity program recording preferences.
If your using a PC, select recording source
as mono mix in the sound settings.
Start your audacity recording,
Start your audio stream,
Edit the start-up lag in the recording when
the radio show is over and you have saved
the project. Good luck

Geez, no wonder upalong can't understand the instructions. I can't
understand a thing you wrote there except "start your audio stream"

I guess some got it and some ain't.

Sorry Mike, I'm not a technical copy writer.
I was doing this from memory.
This laptop has Audacity, but won't record
streaming audio due to lack of recording
source on the mixer control panel.
I guess that's the rub when your trying to
use free software rather than purchased.
I'll see if I can revise the procedure to make
better sense. I don't know if upalong could
follow what I posted,or if his computer is
one that doesn't have the drivers to get from
steaming audio to Audacity line-in.
BTW I'm using the beta version of Audacity
and there is the help menu on the toolbar
that seems to be fairly straight forward on
getting a track recorded, it's your source on
OS sound mixer panel that is the variable.
YMMV apparently.

[hank alrich]

Mike Rivers wrote:

I think that open source software is really a good idea, but not
necessarily for end users.

I think it depends what one wants/needs to do. I've recently been using
NeoOffice, a Mac-GUI version of OpenOffice, and it works fine. It deals
with all the types of files my Windows friends and business associates
send me, and allows me to send them stuff that realiably opens on their
end. I browse in Firefox, and when I ocassionally meet a site that won't
work I'll try Safari. If the site still doesn't work, I don't need to go
there.

My son started last year learning GIMP, an open source app that's like
Photoshop. He quickly got up to basic speed, and again, it all seems to
work fine.

OTOH, while I'm sure Jay Kadis gets around in Linux DAW's, most of us
haven't much success there. I've gone and taken a look at what's
offerred for download and met that "build" thing, of which I know
nothing. I've also watched guys who program for a living try to get some
simple Linux audio stuff working, only for playback at a dance studio.
After a couple of part-time weeks they talked with another programmer
who's been there and done that and learned that such-and-such is broken
and it won't work.

I'm sure a programmer of a certain skill set could go in there and code
what's broken until it works. I am not that person.

Logic might be a pain in the ass sometimes, but even I can get my work
done in it.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam

[Mike Rivers]

hank alrich wrote:

I think it depends what one wants/needs to do. I've recently been using
NeoOffice, a Mac-GUI version of OpenOffice, and it works fine. It deals
with all the types of files my Windows friends and business associates
send me, and allows me to send them stuff that realiably opens on their
end.

Good point. It's OK for mainstream applications that have had some time
to evolve. They probably aren't making changes and coming up with bug
fixes every couple of days, or at least not ones that you see any good
reason to install. But there just aren't enough users of audio programs
who area also good programmers for me to trust my reputation on them.

OTOH, while I'm sure Jay Kadis gets around in Linux DAW's, most of us
haven't much success there. I've gone and taken a look at what's
offerred for download and met that "build" thing, of which I know
nothing. I've also watched guys who program for a living try to get some
simple Linux audio stuff working, only for playback at a dance studio.
After a couple of part-time weeks they talked with another programmer
who's been there and done that and learned that such-and-such is broken
and it won't work.

My friend Don dabbles in audio and is very serious about Unix operating
systems and programming. I keep encouraging him to build up an Ardour
system mostly so I can play with it, and he keeps stalling because
whatever version of Unix he has on whatever machine he could install the
program on is missing this and such library and he'd have to find it,
and then he'd need to update the compiler and get something else. I
think when he put together a memorial CD of recordings he had of a
musician friend who died recently, he used his Mac Mini (the only
computer he'll trust to connect to the net but only after he
hyper-secured it, which was possible for him to do to his satisfaction
because of his Unix knowledge) and Garage Band.




--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Emiliano Grilli]

(hank alrich) writes:

Mike Rivers wrote:

I think that open source software is really a good idea, but not
necessarily for end users.

I think it depends what one wants/needs to do. I've recently been using
NeoOffice, a Mac-GUI version of OpenOffice, and it works fine. It deals
with all the types of files my Windows friends and business associates
send me, and allows me to send them stuff that realiably opens on their
end. I browse in Firefox, and when I ocassionally meet a site that won't
work I'll try Safari. If the site still doesn't work, I don't need to go
there.

My son started last year learning GIMP, an open source app that's like
Photoshop. He quickly got up to basic speed, and again, it all seems to
work fine.

OTOH, while I'm sure Jay Kadis gets around in Linux DAW's, most of us
haven't much success there. I've gone and taken a look at what's
offerred for download and met that "build" thing, of which I know
nothing. I've also watched guys who program for a living try to get some
simple Linux audio stuff working, only for playback at a dance studio.
After a couple of part-time weeks they talked with another programmer
who's been there and done that and learned that such-and-such is broken
and it won't work.

Linux low latency audio can be very tricky to configure, expecially if
you don't know how. That's why there are distributions that are custom
made for this task. 64studio[1] and "planet ccrma"[2] are the best two
in my opinion.

It's entirely possible to have a rock-solid audio workstation at no
cost. Linux audio applications are far younger that proprietary
softwares, and there is far less money involved, but they're advancing
steadily and getting better every year.

You can easily go as low as 5.8 (and lower) ms of latency with a
system well configured and a cheap soundcard. Unfortunately, not many
pro-level cards are supported. But some are, and performing well
(delta series, rme hdsp..)

With JACK, the Jack Audio Connection Kit[3], you get a very flexible
routing system for audio: between applications and the outside
world. For the problem the OP posed, I could have used any of the
players available to play the stream, and connect it to any of the
available recorders (as long they support JACK) through the audio
patchbay "qjackctl"[4].

I'm sure a programmer of a certain skill set could go in there and code
what's broken until it works. I am not that person.

I never wrote a line of C code in my whole life, but I "built" many
pieces of software, including the linux kernel. It's not that
difficult. And there are lots of helpful people around.

Many users are scared by the command line. There are distros today
that you can use without ever seeing one (as my mother my brother and
others I know do on a daily basis). But the command line is just
another powerful tool you have, and gives you the complete control of
the system and applications and how to use them for your specific
purposes.

Logic might be a pain in the ass sometimes, but even I can get my work
done in it.

Sure there is nothing comparable to logic in the linux arena,
especially MIDI-wise. But ardour[5] is already an excellent HDR and I
never lost a bit of audio with it. And there are tons of other
softwares (like the lilypond[6] music typesetting system, just to cite
one) that form a very good toolkit for any musician IMHO. At no cost,
and perfectly legal.

I'm not a professional (call me an advanced hobbyst), but for my needs
gnu/linux fits very nicely and it's a pleasure to use and explore. The
knowledge I gained using GNU in the last 10 years is actually what
puts the bread on my table today

--
ha


Best regards,

[1] http://64studio.com/
[2] http://ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/
[3] http://jackaudio.org/
[4] http://qjackctl.sourceforge.net/
[5] http://ardour.org/
[6] http://lilypond.org/

--
Emiliano Grilli
Linux user #209089
http://www.emillo.net

[philicorda[_6_]]

On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 07:05:45 -0700, hank alrich wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:

I think that open source software is really a good idea, but not
necessarily for end users.

I think it depends what one wants/needs to do. I've recently been using
NeoOffice, a Mac-GUI version of OpenOffice, and it works fine. It deals
with all the types of files my Windows friends and business associates
send me, and allows me to send them stuff that realiably opens on their
end. I browse in Firefox, and when I ocassionally meet a site that won't
work I'll try Safari. If the site still doesn't work, I don't need to go
there.

My son started last year learning GIMP, an open source app that's like
Photoshop. He quickly got up to basic speed, and again, it all seems to
work fine.

OTOH, while I'm sure Jay Kadis gets around in Linux DAW's, most of us
haven't much success there. I've gone and taken a look at what's
offerred for download and met that "build" thing, of which I know
nothing.

It would be unusual to download or build the software manually.

The normal way to install software on Linux is to use the package
manager, which pretty much involves clicking on 'Ardour' then clicking
'install'.

I've also watched guys who program for a living try to get some
simple Linux audio stuff working, only for playback at a dance studio.
After a couple of part-time weeks they talked with another programmer
who's been there and done that and learned that such-and-such is broken
and it won't work.

Seems a little odd. Every distro comes with a music player you can cue up
a collection of tracks in. I'd be astonished if anyone could mess this up.


I'm sure a programmer of a certain skill set could go in there and code
what's broken until it works. I am not that person.

Logic might be a pain in the ass sometimes, but even I can get my work
done in it.

In the end, that's all that really matters.

[Lucky[_3_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On Sep 29, 12:54 am, Lucky wrote:

I've also tried looping out and in. There is a slapback effect, probably
due to latency.

What you need to do with that setup is turn off record monitoring, and
there's usually a button for this in the Windows mixer, but it might
be in Audacity. If it wasn't for latency, you'd have howling feedback.


Windows? Silly boy.

[Mike Rivers]

Lucky wrote:

Windows? Silly boy.

OK, turn off monitoring in the mixer control panel. You find it.

--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Lucky[_3_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
Lucky wrote:

Windows? Silly boy.

OK, turn off monitoring in the mixer control panel. You find it.

I'm good thank you. I was just sharing an anecdote about a way that I
don't want to do something.

I'm just as much of a pro as you - just slightly younger, and almost as
handsome. ;-)

[Tessera]

On Sep 28, 12:35 pm, upalong wrote:
I have downloaded Audacity software but cannot understand the
instructions. i want to record internet radio broadcasts and then
transfer them to my iTunes library. Is there a step-by-step guide
anywhere to help?

The last time I worked with Audacity it had a lot of issues. The main
one being it could not record a longer length audio source(pretty much
rules out radio streams). I had constant crashes and gave up on it - I
am running Blaze Media Pro now and love it - works great for recording
and editing streams and other media sources.

[Getting Older and Grumpier Gear Minion]

On Sep 30, 10:30*am, Tessera wrote:
On Sep 28, 12:35 pm, upalong wrote:

I have downloaded Audacity software but cannot understand the
instructions. i want to record internet radio broadcasts and then
transfer them to my iTunes library. Is there a step-by-step guide
anywhere to help?

The last time I worked with Audacity it had a lot of issues. The main
one being it could not record a longer length audio source(pretty much
rules out radio streams). I had constant crashes and gave up on it - I
am running Blaze Media Pro now and love it - works great for recording
and editing streams and other media sources.

Hi, I'm recording radio show segments that are running
in WMP10 with Audacity, usually 1 hour cuts so I'm in
a commercial to stop, save and start a new project for the
second hour, but have run one recording at least 1.5
hours when I forgot about it. I'm pretty sure it's the
1.3.5 Beta version on a XPpro.SP3 Dell laptop.
Took a couple of tries to find the right source
on the Recording Control Panel of the OS.
They are 44.1-16 recordings and haven't had an
issue with them crashing.
I'll check out Blaze Media Pro though.
Thanks.

"upalong" wrote in message
...
I have downloaded Audacity software but cannot understand the
instructions. i want to record internet radio broadcasts and then
transfer them to my iTunes library. Is there a step-by-step guide
anywhere to help?

Here's how I do it:

I use Screamer Radio to pick up the station. I then click on the REC button
and the MUTE button. After you've recorded everything you're interested in,
open the resulting file with mp3DirectCut. Find the beginning of the part
you want to keep and click on Set begin; find the end and click on Set End.
Drop down the File menu and click on Save Selection; name the file and Save
it.

I've done this 1000's of times.

Norm Strong