Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
James Price[_5_] James Price[_5_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?
  #2   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,190
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 1/13/2018 10:48 PM, James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch?


Yeah. Don't compress them so much that they have no dynamics, hence no
"punch." Or use a multiband compressor and don't compress the "punch"
range (lower mids) as much as the mids and highs.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
  #3   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,853
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

In article ,
James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?


The secret is in the amp and in the room. If it sounds big and full in
the room, that's half the struggle.

I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.

The signal going into the amp transformer might look like a brick, but
once it comes out of the amp loudspeaker it doesn't look anything like
that... it has all kinds of weird overshoot and bouncing around and the
top end is severely rolled off. As always, if you move the mike toward
the center of the speaker it gets brighter and if you move it toward the
edge it gets duller so you can control the top end that way.

Then once you add the room into that (and the room adds a lot of reverb
even if it's all short time reverb) and you get the classic metal sound.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #4   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
John Williamson John Williamson is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,753
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 14/01/2018 03:48, James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?

Possibly not practical, but DI the clean guitar and add the effects in
post by re-amping the track?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
  #5   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
James Price[_5_] James Price[_5_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 10:13:18 AM UTC-6, Scott Dorsey wrote:
James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?


The secret is in the amp and in the room. If it sounds big and full in
the room, that's half the struggle.

I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.

The signal going into the amp transformer might look like a brick, but
once it comes out of the amp loudspeaker it doesn't look anything like
that... it has all kinds of weird overshoot and bouncing around and the
top end is severely rolled off. As always, if you move the mike toward
the center of the speaker it gets brighter and if you move it toward the
edge it gets duller so you can control the top end that way.

Then once you add the room into that (and the room adds a lot of reverb
even if it's all short time reverb) and you get the classic metal sound.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


Thanks for the suggestion.

This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


  #6   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
James Price[_5_] James Price[_5_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 10:43:48 AM UTC-6, John Williamson wrote:
On 14/01/2018 03:48, James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?

Possibly not practical, but DI the clean guitar and add the effects in
post by re-amping the track?


Actually very practical since the person insists on using an Axe FX II.
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
geoff geoff is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,481
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 15/01/2018 9:03 AM, James Price wrote:


This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Well, if 'their sound' is over-compressed and flat at source, there is
little that can be done to get what the person designated as producer wants.

An expander may be able to help resurrect some dynamics, but probably
not. Better still discussing problem with the guitarist.

geoff
  #8   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,853
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

James Price wrote:
This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.

Or use whatever junk amp you have around.

It is AMAZING how much better it sounds than those cheese-whiz amp simulators.

Here is the real secret though: the sound that sounds best in isolation is
NOT the sound that sounds best in the mix. So if they get "their sound" it
might be wonderful soloed but it might also be totally wrong for the track.
I know it's hard for people to believe this but sometimes you have to make
them believe it. And sometimes you have to reamp without them seeing it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
[email protected] makolber@yahoo.com is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 614
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?



Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.


what is a "pignose"

mark

  #10   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Nil[_2_] Nil[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 251
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Wrote in message:

what is a "pignose"


A small battery-powered guitar amp. Google it.

--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
James Price[_5_] James Price[_5_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 110
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 4:45:43 PM UTC-6, Scott Dorsey wrote:
James Price wrote:
This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.

Or use whatever junk amp you have around.

It is AMAZING how much better it sounds than those cheese-whiz amp simulators.

Here is the real secret though: the sound that sounds best in isolation is
NOT the sound that sounds best in the mix. So if they get "their sound" it
might be wonderful soloed but it might also be totally wrong for the track.
I know it's hard for people to believe this but sometimes you have to make
them believe it. And sometimes you have to reamp without them seeing it.


Good idea. I'll give that a shot.
  #12   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,853
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

In article ,
wrote:

Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.


what is a "pignose"


It's a solid state guitar amp that practically fits in your pocket.
Transformer output, tiny little speaker. Used to be very popular with
buskers on the subway. Actually gives a great variety of guitar sounds
in the studio and they are still $20 pawnshop items.

There are probably a lot of similar baby amps that will do just as well
but the Pignose is the one most common in pawnshops and dumpsters.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #13   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
[email protected] makolber@yahoo.com is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 614
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On Monday, January 15, 2018 at 1:13:00 PM UTC-5, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.


what is a "pignose"


It's a solid state guitar amp that practically fits in your pocket.
Transformer output, tiny little speaker. Used to be very popular with
buskers on the subway. Actually gives a great variety of guitar sounds
in the studio and they are still $20 pawnshop items.

There are probably a lot of similar baby amps that will do just as well
but the Pignose is the one most common in pawnshops and dumpsters.
--scott


thanks
  #14   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

James Price wrote:
On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 10:13:18 AM UTC-6, Scott Dorsey wrote:
James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?


The secret is in the amp and in the room. If it sounds big and full in
the room, that's half the struggle.

I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.

The signal going into the amp transformer might look like a brick, but
once it comes out of the amp loudspeaker it doesn't look anything like
that... it has all kinds of weird overshoot and bouncing around and the
top end is severely rolled off. As always, if you move the mike toward
the center of the speaker it gets brighter and if you move it toward the
edge it gets duller so you can control the top end that way.

Then once you add the room into that (and the room adds a lot of reverb
even if it's all short time reverb) and you get the classic metal sound.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


Thanks for the suggestion.

This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Drop an actual DI to go with it. It'll be punchier and at -10-dB to -6dB
of the Axe Fx track you'll only notice it adding definition.

--
Les Cargill
  #15   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Scott Dorsey wrote:
James Price wrote:
This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.

Or use whatever junk amp you have around.

It is AMAZING how much better it sounds than those cheese-whiz amp simulators.


You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST. There is
a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio - and you load
up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.

80-90% of the time, it's all you need. And at least the impulses
I use take pedals well.

Here is the real secret though: the sound that sounds best in isolation is
NOT the sound that sounds best in the mix. So if they get "their sound" it
might be wonderful soloed but it might also be totally wrong for the track.
I know it's hard for people to believe this but sometimes you have to make
them believe it. And sometimes you have to reamp without them seeing it.
--scott



When people argue without about this, refer them to some of the tones
Davey Johnstone used on Elton John records. You would not want to hear
them soloed.

--
Les Cargill


  #16   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
polymod polymod is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 584
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?



"Les Cargill" wrote in message news
snip

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST. There is
a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio - and you load
up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.



Just to clarify, PULSE *is* free....but you need the impulse responses which
are $8 a pop.

Poly


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

  #17   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
[email protected] makolber@yahoo.com is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 614
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 9:12:36 AM UTC-5, polymod wrote:
"Les Cargill" wrote in message news
snip

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST. There is
a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio - and you load
up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.



from a technical point of view, if that is literally an IMPULSE RESPONSE, I don't see how an impulse response can define the sound of a guitar amp.

an impulse response captures the linear characteristics like frequency response and reverberation, but does NOT capture non linearity characteristics like clipping and distortion.

Non linearity is obviously an important part of a guitar amp sound and is not captureed by impulse response.

Perhaps they are mis-using the term impulse response.

mark



  #19   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Phil W Phil W is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 146
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

"polymod":
"Les Cargill" wrote in message news
snip

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST. There is
a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio - and you load
up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.



Just to clarify, PULSE *is* free....but you need the impulse responses
which are $8 a pop.

Poly


They did offer some free impulse responses IIRC, currently only of the
"Rosen American Custom guitar cabinet", but some time ago, they had more
free ones.
Anyway, there are quite a few other websites that definitely offer free
impulse responses of guitar amps/speaker cabs - the stuff is out there, one
just needs to search a bit.


Phil

  #20   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Nil[_2_] Nil[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 251
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 16 Jan 2018, Les Cargill wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST.
There is a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio -
and you load up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.


That's only a speaker cabinet simulator. It doesn't model the amps
themselves.


  #22   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,853
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Nil wrote:
On 16 Jan 2018, Les Cargill wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST.
There is a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio -
and you load up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.


That's only a speaker cabinet simulator. It doesn't model the amps
themselves.


If that is true, and if it does only do impulse responses, then it would
miss most of what is interesting about the cabinet. Which is to say the
driver and box nonlinearities, especially the cone breakup and how that
changes with level. And, of course, there are the room effects which
may not may not be significant depending on how the amp was miked to get
that impulse response.

I don't understand the reluctance by so many people today to just use an
amp in a room.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #23   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
geoff geoff is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,481
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 18/01/2018 10:32 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:


I don't understand the reluctance by so many people today to just use an
amp in a room.
--scott



Often "neighbours".

geoff
  #24   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

polymod wrote:


"Les Cargill"Â* wrote in message news
snip

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST. There is
a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio - and you load
up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.



Just to clarify, PULSE *is* free....but you need the impulse responses
which are $8 a pop.

Poly

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus



You don't have to use their impulses. Free ones abound and you can
make your own.

--
Les Cargill

  #26   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Geoff wrote:
On 18/01/2018 3:31 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 9:12:36 AM UTC-5, polymod wrote:
"Les Cargill"Â* wrote in message news
snip

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST. There is
a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio - and you load
up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.



from a technical point of view,Â* if that is literally an IMPULSE
RESPONSE, I don't see how an impulse response canÂ* define the sound of
a guitar amp.

an impulse response captures the linear characteristics like frequency
response and reverberation, but does NOT capture non linearity
characteristics like clipping and distortion.

Non linearity is obviously an important part of a guitar amp sound and
is not captureed by impulse response.

Perhaps they are mis-using the term impulse response.

mark



An impulse response sample could not capture anything that varies widely
with guitar amp input or master level - just an instantaneous snapshot
of one particular sound setting and level.

geoff



If there was some way to demonstrate, I would do so. It won't
capture every single aspect of a guitar amp - like I said,
sometimes you have to reamp - but it is at least for me a
great starter.

--
Les Cargill
  #27   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Nil wrote:
On 16 Jan 2018, Les Cargill wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST.
There is a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio -
and you load up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.


That's only a speaker cabinet simulator. It doesn't model the amps
themselves.



It does if the impulse response is of both an amp and speaker.

--
Les Cargill
  #28   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Nil wrote:
On 16 Jan 2018, Les Cargill wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST.
There is a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio -
and you load up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.


That's only a speaker cabinet simulator. It doesn't model the amps
themselves.


If that is true, and if it does only do impulse responses, then it would
miss most of what is interesting about the cabinet. Which is to say the
driver and box nonlinearities, especially the cone breakup and how that
changes with level.


I don't own any guitar speakers that break up any more. They've kind of
gone out of style, except in classic older configurations. A Twin
is still a Twin; that sort of thing. My 18W amp
drives a 75 W speaker.

For live, IMO, speaker breakup is bad news unless you're still
pursuing the power trio ... paradigm.

I see a lot of people using Kemper rigs into in-ears or
into small PA speakers.

And, of course, there are the room effects which
may not may not be significant depending on how the amp was miked to get
that impulse response.

I don't understand the reluctance by so many people today to just use an
amp in a room.
--scott



I don't have any reluctance to do that. This is just a first pass thing
that generally works, and the results sit better in a mix. But it's
kind of unusual now to need to track live into an amp.

I haven't run into people playing "bl00z" live for going on a decade
now. It's kind of come and gone.

--
Les Cargill
  #29   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
geoff geoff is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,481
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 18/01/2018 1:12 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
Geoff wrote:



An impulse response sample could not capture anything that varies
widely with guitar amp input or master level - just an instantaneous
snapshot of one particular sound setting and level.

geoff



If there was some way to demonstrate, I would do so. It won't
capture every single aspect of a guitar amp -


Indeed. In fact only one snippet of a small aspect.

but it is at least for me a
great starter.


Indeed. No harm in at least giving everything possible at least a try.

geoff
  #30   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
geoff geoff is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,481
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 18/01/2018 1:25 PM, Les Cargill wrote:


I haven't run into people playing "bl00z" live for going on a decade
now. It's kind of come and gone.


Not where I am. Remains popular, alongside many other genres - some that
have come and indeed gone.

geoff


  #31   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
geoff geoff is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,481
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 18/01/2018 1:13 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
Nil wrote:
On 16 Jan 2018, Les Cargill wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST.
There is a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio -
and you load up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.


That's only a speaker cabinet simulator. It doesn't model the amps
themselves.



It does if the impulse response is of both an amp and speaker.


Valid for one frequency (or group of), at one particular volume.

geoff
  #32   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Geoff wrote:
On 18/01/2018 1:13 PM, Les Cargill wrote:
Nil wrote:
On 16 Jan 2018, Les Cargill wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST.
There is a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio -
and you load up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.

That's only a speaker cabinet simulator. It doesn't model the amps
themselves.



It does if the impulse response is of both an amp and speaker.


Valid for one frequency (or group of), at one particular volume.

geoff


Not so much. It works at all the frequencies. You run a swept sine or
single-sample "tick" to the amp to be "modelled" and then use a
deconvolver to derive the impulse response.

Unless 1) you're using the amp as an extremely non-linear, in-the-
soundfield feedback leg or it's a 2) Champ or 3) a Dumble-type amp
it'll recreate a nicely-behaved clean amp well.

I have run a DI into one channel, a miced amp into the other.
Then I use an impulse response of the same amp on the DI track.
If you line out all the delays, they sound almost completely the same.
Of course there are subtle difference, but I swear the impulse
mixes better.

Perhaps Pete can explain it better than I?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i770M9pM0_k

he does a comparison about 7:30 in.

--
Les Cargill
  #33   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Nil wrote:
On 16 Jan 2018, Les Cargill wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST.
There is a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio -
and you load up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.


That's only a speaker cabinet simulator. It doesn't model the amps
themselves.


If that is true, and if it does only do impulse responses, then it would
miss most of what is interesting about the cabinet. Which is to say the
driver and box nonlinearities, especially the cone breakup and how that
changes with level. And, of course, there are the room effects which
may not may not be significant depending on how the amp was miked to get
that impulse response.

I don't understand the reluctance by so many people today to just use an
amp in a room.
--scott


I forgot to mention:

A thing that happens a lot these days is that *live*, people expect side
players to use Kemper and other high-end modellers to control stage
level. It's all IEM, all the time. The logistical advantages -
especially if the FOH and monitor guys use a USB drive on a digital
console setup for the monitor and FOH setup - should be pretty apparent.
Roll it, rack it, fly it, ring out the room and you have the same show
you had last night - to the limits of the room.

once that has a foothold, it's not hard to see why there's an emphasis
on direct sound in recording these days. Plus, people can get a sound
without waking up the neighbors, so the home recordists like it.

--
Les Cargill
  #34   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Nil[_2_] Nil[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 251
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 17 Jan 2018, Les Cargill wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

It does if the impulse response is of both an amp and speaker.


Perhaps, but the one you reference does not.
  #35   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Trevor Trevor is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,820
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 18/01/2018 11:10 AM, Les Cargill wrote:
wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 9:12:36 AM UTC-5, polymod wrote:
"Les Cargill"Â* wrote in message news
snip

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST.
There is a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio -
and you load up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.



from a technical point of view,Â* if that is literally an IMPULSE
RESPONSE, I don't see how an impulse response canÂ* define the sound
of a guitar amp.

an impulse response captures the linear characteristics like
frequency response and reverberation, but does NOT capture non
linearity characteristics like clipping and distortion.


No, you use other things for that.

Non linearity is obviously an important part of a guitar amp sound
and is not captureed by impulse response.


While that's true, there are lots of other ways to
get nonlinearity. Pedals for one, waveshapers
for another. FuncShaper does well and is also
free.

Perhaps they are mis-using the term impulse response.


Nope. It's a deconvolution and that's by definition an
impulse response.



Bit hard to see how that can be better than a *good* amp simulation then
which may consider a dozen other parameters as well.
IMO the only thing that matters is whether you get the sound you are
after, not how you obtained it though.

Trevor.



  #36   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,383
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Nil wrote:
On 17 Jan 2018, Les Cargill wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

It does if the impulse response is of both an amp and speaker.


Perhaps, but the one you reference does not.



FWIW, my main go-to is of both. I was pointing to the playback
engine for impulse responses. It's quite seperable from the responses
themselves.

--
Les Cargill
  #37   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,853
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Geoff wrote:
On 18/01/2018 10:32 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

I don't understand the reluctance by so many people today to just use an
amp in a room.


Often "neighbours".


That made sense years ago, but this is the 21st century! You can track
with a DI, then take it somewhere else to reamp. You can track with a DI
at 4 AM, and then reamp it during the day when the neighbors are at work.

Today you have the ability to pick and choose the best of new and old
technology and use them together at the same time and to my mind that
makes things more flexible than ever.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  #38   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
[email protected] makolber@yahoo.com is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 614
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?



That's only a speaker cabinet simulator. It doesn't model the amps
themselves.



It does if the impulse response is of both an amp and speaker.

--
Les Cargill


no

Impulse response is not used to capture non-linearity characteristics.

The impulse response may include the amp, but only the frequency and phase response characteristics of the amp, not the clipping and overdrive characteristics of the amp.


mark



  #39   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Tim Sprout[_2_] Tim Sprout[_2_] is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 1/14/2018 7:13 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?


The secret is in the amp and in the room. If it sounds big and full in
the room, that's half the struggle.

I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.

The signal going into the amp transformer might look like a brick, but
once it comes out of the amp loudspeaker it doesn't look anything like
that... it has all kinds of weird overshoot and bouncing around and the
top end is severely rolled off. As always, if you move the mike toward
the center of the speaker it gets brighter and if you move it toward the
edge it gets duller so you can control the top end that way.

Then once you add the room into that (and the room adds a lot of reverb
even if it's all short time reverb) and you get the classic metal sound.
--scott


Do you ever hi-pass shelf the amp or room mic?

Tim Sprout

  #40   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.pro
Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 16,853
Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

In article , Tim Sprout wrote:
On 1/14/2018 7:13 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.


Do you ever hi-pass shelf the amp or room mic?


The 635A is intended as a TV reporter microphone for use outdoors, so it
has absolutely no low end whatsoever. Just drops like a rock around 120 Hz.
or so. So there's no need to high-pass.

If you're using an SM-57 that has some low end, or you're using a nice
wideband condenser mike for the room mike, you may need to high pass.

A lot of it depends on the instrument and the room... but it certainly
will never hurt to high-pass it and it might do some good, so you might
as well. The nice thing about living in the digital world, though, is
that you can do it at any point in the process and it works the same way.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DI Box distorted through amp Hugh Verdam Pro Audio 13 December 27th 06 05:41 PM
NAD amp distorting heavily after running a bass guitar through it. [email protected] High End Audio 3 January 19th 05 05:22 AM
NAD amp distorting heavily after running a bass guitar through it. [email protected] Tech 2 January 17th 05 12:16 PM
NAD amp distorting heavily after running a bass guitar through it. [email protected] Audio Opinions 3 January 16th 05 11:36 PM
NAD amp distorting heavily after running a bass guitar through it. [email protected] General 0 January 16th 05 10:08 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:17 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"