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James Price[_5_] James Price[_5_] is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 1/13/2018 10:48 PM, James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch?


Yeah. Don't compress them so much that they have no dynamics, hence no
"punch." Or use a multiband compressor and don't compress the "punch"
range (lower mids) as much as the mids and highs.

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

In article ,
James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?


The secret is in the amp and in the room. If it sounds big and full in
the room, that's half the struggle.

I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.

The signal going into the amp transformer might look like a brick, but
once it comes out of the amp loudspeaker it doesn't look anything like
that... it has all kinds of weird overshoot and bouncing around and the
top end is severely rolled off. As always, if you move the mike toward
the center of the speaker it gets brighter and if you move it toward the
edge it gets duller so you can control the top end that way.

Then once you add the room into that (and the room adds a lot of reverb
even if it's all short time reverb) and you get the classic metal sound.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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James Price[_5_] James Price[_5_] is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 10:13:18 AM UTC-6, Scott Dorsey wrote:
James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?


The secret is in the amp and in the room. If it sounds big and full in
the room, that's half the struggle.

I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.

The signal going into the amp transformer might look like a brick, but
once it comes out of the amp loudspeaker it doesn't look anything like
that... it has all kinds of weird overshoot and bouncing around and the
top end is severely rolled off. As always, if you move the mike toward
the center of the speaker it gets brighter and if you move it toward the
edge it gets duller so you can control the top end that way.

Then once you add the room into that (and the room adds a lot of reverb
even if it's all short time reverb) and you get the classic metal sound.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


Thanks for the suggestion.

This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 15/01/2018 9:03 AM, James Price wrote:


This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Well, if 'their sound' is over-compressed and flat at source, there is
little that can be done to get what the person designated as producer wants.

An expander may be able to help resurrect some dynamics, but probably
not. Better still discussing problem with the guitarist.

geoff


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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

James Price wrote:
This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.

Or use whatever junk amp you have around.

It is AMAZING how much better it sounds than those cheese-whiz amp simulators.

Here is the real secret though: the sound that sounds best in isolation is
NOT the sound that sounds best in the mix. So if they get "their sound" it
might be wonderful soloed but it might also be totally wrong for the track.
I know it's hard for people to believe this but sometimes you have to make
them believe it. And sometimes you have to reamp without them seeing it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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[email protected] makolber@yahoo.com is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?



Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.


what is a "pignose"

mark

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Nil[_2_] Nil[_2_] is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Wrote in message:

what is a "pignose"


A small battery-powered guitar amp. Google it.

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

In article ,
wrote:

Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.


what is a "pignose"


It's a solid state guitar amp that practically fits in your pocket.
Transformer output, tiny little speaker. Used to be very popular with
buskers on the subway. Actually gives a great variety of guitar sounds
in the studio and they are still $20 pawnshop items.

There are probably a lot of similar baby amps that will do just as well
but the Pignose is the one most common in pawnshops and dumpsters.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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James Price[_5_] James Price[_5_] is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 4:45:43 PM UTC-6, Scott Dorsey wrote:
James Price wrote:
This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.

Or use whatever junk amp you have around.

It is AMAZING how much better it sounds than those cheese-whiz amp simulators.

Here is the real secret though: the sound that sounds best in isolation is
NOT the sound that sounds best in the mix. So if they get "their sound" it
might be wonderful soloed but it might also be totally wrong for the track.
I know it's hard for people to believe this but sometimes you have to make
them believe it. And sometimes you have to reamp without them seeing it.


Good idea. I'll give that a shot.


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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Scott Dorsey wrote:
James Price wrote:
This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Record the output of the Axe FX, and at the same time record a direct guitar
feed. Afterward, reamp the guitar feed with a pignose lying on its back
on the floor with an SM-57 about three feet in the air pointing down at it.

Or use whatever junk amp you have around.

It is AMAZING how much better it sounds than those cheese-whiz amp simulators.


You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST. There is
a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio - and you load
up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.

80-90% of the time, it's all you need. And at least the impulses
I use take pedals well.

Here is the real secret though: the sound that sounds best in isolation is
NOT the sound that sounds best in the mix. So if they get "their sound" it
might be wonderful soloed but it might also be totally wrong for the track.
I know it's hard for people to believe this but sometimes you have to make
them believe it. And sometimes you have to reamp without them seeing it.
--scott



When people argue without about this, refer them to some of the tones
Davey Johnstone used on Elton John records. You would not want to hear
them soloed.

--
Les Cargill
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?



"Les Cargill" wrote in message news
snip

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST. There is
a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio - and you load
up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.



Just to clarify, PULSE *is* free....but you need the impulse responses which
are $8 a pop.

Poly


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Nil[_2_] Nil[_2_] is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 16 Jan 2018, Les Cargill wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST.
There is a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio -
and you load up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.


That's only a speaker cabinet simulator. It doesn't model the amps
themselves.
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?




You don't have to use amp sims any more, at least not with VST. There is
a free convolution VST - PULSE by Rosen Digital Audio - and you load
up an impulse response of your favorite amp and go.



I bought a Kemper Profiler which "profiles" the sound coming from a mic in front of an amp. They are REALLY, REALLY accurate. There are tons of A?B comparisons to judge for yourself. It ain't cheap at $1700, but I haven't mic'ed an AMP since it arrived last spring. Many of the Michael Britt profiles are free with it...Stunning. And it had bass amp profiles, and dozens of pedals, CRAZY. Where it departs from amp sims are in the clean sounds.. They have the depth and chime of real amps. The sounds are taken from real amps/
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

James Price wrote:
On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 10:13:18 AM UTC-6, Scott Dorsey wrote:
James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?


The secret is in the amp and in the room. If it sounds big and full in
the room, that's half the struggle.

I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.

The signal going into the amp transformer might look like a brick, but
once it comes out of the amp loudspeaker it doesn't look anything like
that... it has all kinds of weird overshoot and bouncing around and the
top end is severely rolled off. As always, if you move the mike toward
the center of the speaker it gets brighter and if you move it toward the
edge it gets duller so you can control the top end that way.

Then once you add the room into that (and the room adds a lot of reverb
even if it's all short time reverb) and you get the classic metal sound.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


Thanks for the suggestion.

This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'. Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Drop an actual DI to go with it. It'll be punchier and at -10-dB to -6dB
of the Axe Fx track you'll only notice it adding definition.

--
Les Cargill


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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 14-01-2018 21:03, James Price wrote:

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 10:13:18 AM UTC-6, Scott Dorsey wrote:


The secret is in the amp and in the room. If it sounds big and full in
the room, that's half the struggle.


I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.


& more wisdom


Thanks for the suggestion.


This particular individual is attached to going direct with an Axe FX II
rather than mic'ing up an amp, namely because the preset they use has
'their sound'.


Probably, but wants to sound louder and punchier. So to Scotts wise
words I will add: use an open back amplifier, set it at an angle to a
rear wall and use a stereophonic version of the close and far microphone
setup ploy.

Since the Axe FX is primarily used to record direct,
any room sound would have to be artificially created. Hardly ideal, but
options are limited.


Yes, they are, musician needs to follow advice to get larger and
punchier sound.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


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Tim Sprout[_2_] Tim Sprout[_2_] is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 1/14/2018 7:13 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
In article ,
James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?


The secret is in the amp and in the room. If it sounds big and full in
the room, that's half the struggle.

I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.

The signal going into the amp transformer might look like a brick, but
once it comes out of the amp loudspeaker it doesn't look anything like
that... it has all kinds of weird overshoot and bouncing around and the
top end is severely rolled off. As always, if you move the mike toward
the center of the speaker it gets brighter and if you move it toward the
edge it gets duller so you can control the top end that way.

Then once you add the room into that (and the room adds a lot of reverb
even if it's all short time reverb) and you get the classic metal sound.
--scott


Do you ever hi-pass shelf the amp or room mic?

Tim Sprout

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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

In article , Tim Sprout wrote:
On 1/14/2018 7:13 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:

I like to put something like a 635A that has no low end on the amp, then
if possible (given leakage considerations) a mike five or ten feet away
so that you get some room sound. The room mike is going to be boomy, and
will have a sustain from the room sound. The amp mike will have a bright
but sharp sound that compensates for the boom.


Do you ever hi-pass shelf the amp or room mic?


The 635A is intended as a TV reporter microphone for use outdoors, so it
has absolutely no low end whatsoever. Just drops like a rock around 120 Hz.
or so. So there's no need to high-pass.

If you're using an SM-57 that has some low end, or you're using a nice
wideband condenser mike for the room mike, you may need to high pass.

A lot of it depends on the instrument and the room... but it certainly
will never hurt to high-pass it and it might do some good, so you might
as well. The nice thing about living in the digital world, though, is
that you can do it at any point in the process and it works the same way.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 22/01/2018 19:53, Scott Dorsey wrote:
The nice thing about living in the digital world, though, is
that you can do it at any point in the process and it works the same way.


Not to mention that if it doesn't work, you're always still at
generation one in the chain for quality when you try again.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

John Williamson wrote:
On 22/01/2018 19:53, Scott Dorsey wrote:
The nice thing about living in the digital world, though, is
that you can do it at any point in the process and it works the same way.


Not to mention that if it doesn't work, you're always still at
generation one in the chain for quality when you try again.


Yes, although the downside of that is that you can be caught ino the trap
of spending months trying different things to get it perfect, when it was
originally almost perfect.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On 14/01/2018 03:48, James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?

Possibly not practical, but DI the clean guitar and add the effects in
post by re-amping the track?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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James Price[_5_] James Price[_5_] is offline
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 10:43:48 AM UTC-6, John Williamson wrote:
On 14/01/2018 03:48, James Price wrote:
When recording distorted guitars (eg. metal) that are heavily compressed, do you have any tips for achieving greater punch? Obviously it's a challenge if the wave form looks like a brick, so I'm guessing the remedy is to turn down the gain at the source?

Possibly not practical, but DI the clean guitar and add the effects in
post by re-amping the track?


Actually very practical since the person insists on using an Axe FX II.
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Default Getting more punch from heavily distorted guitars?

Does arrangement count? Like having
strong but well-spaced jabs at the
strings? Listen to first 30sec of 'Long
Cool Woman(In A Black Dress)' as
example.
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