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megalomando
 
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Default Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020

What's the difference between these two units?

Also, does the 1020 allow a stereo output?

I've looked around & it seems like the 1802 is an older unit. Not sure
what's better with newer ones.

Any advice is appreciated!

Cheers,

MM
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George
 
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Default Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020

In article ,
megalomando wrote:

What's the difference between these two units?

Also, does the 1020 allow a stereo output?

I've looked around & it seems like the 1802 is an older unit. Not sure
what's better with newer ones.

Any advice is appreciated!

Cheers,

MM


I have used MANY of the sabines , from the very first ones through the
current newest models
they all are very application specific
they are not general cure alls for feedback
could you tell us a bit about what you hope the unit will do for you?
I can then guide you as to if the unit is able to do what your thinking
it will do
George
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megalomando
 
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Default Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 03:04:29 GMT, George
wrote:

In article ,
megalomando wrote:

What's the difference between these two units?

Also, does the 1020 allow a stereo output?

I've looked around & it seems like the 1802 is an older unit. Not sure
what's better with newer ones.

Any advice is appreciated!

Cheers,

MM


I have used MANY of the sabines , from the very first ones through the
current newest models
they all are very application specific
they are not general cure alls for feedback
could you tell us a bit about what you hope the unit will do for you?
I can then guide you as to if the unit is able to do what your thinking
it will do
George


Hi,

My mics are a KM84 Moded selected & modified by Klaus Heyne for
smaller stringed instruments and I have a TLM-103 for vocals.
Amplification is via the internal amplifiers in the the Mackie 450's
(300W to bass & 100W to tweeter; 400W in each x 2 = 800W in all).

I currently have a Sabine SM820 (have two SM820s & two SL820s) Solo
which I use for vocal. Mostly I have been using a transducer on the
instruments and there is no feedback to deal with. Now I need to use
the vocal mic and since I will be having my feedback problems again, I
may as well use the KM84 again for the instrument. That means two
lines with mics instead of just the one.

Without the sabineI find that I get marvelous feedback at almost all
settings when it's loud enough to be heard adequately in the listening
area. With the Sabine I use currently I can say the sound is excellent
in fact it's stellar. I have no compressor as I really have developed
no appreciation for artificial sounds. I have no parametric EQ. I do
have an Alesis nanoverb for a small amount of reverb but I use it very
little as it's a lousy reverb. As far as emphasizing bass or treble, I
leave things pretty much neutral as the mics I'm using don't ask for
much balance & I & my peers in the audience like the way they sound.

I find that using these mics seems to generate a lot of feedback & the
solo does a great job of knocking those frequencies out and saves me a
lot of spinning wheels trying to deal with a ringing or wolf when I'm
in the middle of a quiet passage. Using my pick-up-the-world
transducer eliminates my need for dealing with feedback. Going back to
the microphones shows me why I bought the Sabines in the first place.

Since I don't have a soundman to deal with reality, I have to deal
with it before it starts. As to better amplification, I'm sure there's
a lot better than the Mackies but after looking at every available
option to me they sounded far better than anything else I found
anywhere remotely near their price range. I won't be exchanging them
for anything else so I will have to be satisfied with them.

It will be easier for me to have a rack mounted unit than to have two
of the solos & the wall warts. My goal is to not have feedback
problems and to have the fastest assembly/dis-assembly possible when I
gig. I'd like to have a stereo separation when desired so a single in
& out isn't my ideal.

I have a 1402 VLZ Pro & no graphic or parametric. Since I play where
people are moving freely in front of the stage, I can't set it for a
room & let it go as in a concert hall.

Hope this helps. SO the 1802 vs 2020 vs the 1020 vs two SM820s?

Thanks

Gary
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George
 
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Default Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020


Hope this helps. SO the 1802 vs 2020 vs the 1020 vs two SM820s?

Thanks

Gary


Looking at your signal chain I would "Guess" you should have no trouble
getting all the volume you need without a feedback problem, using the
mics
But you clearly say you do have feedback issues
use the 2020 as the most bang for the buck, though my Sabine rep claims
to have the same logic in all these
but only set about 3 or 4 filters then lock it down
NO roaming filters
once you have about 4 filters in place you have achieve the best you
can do with one of these, beyond this , the audible effect of too much
eq will start to gouge your sound
Roaming filters depend on feedback(or long musically sustained notes/or
harmonics) to happen the device can not distinguish one from the other
and once 3 or 4 filters are set you systems is pretty much maxed up any
more gain will cause several frequiecs to all start ringing at about
the same time, the sabine will kill feedback when set up properly
It will not maintain stability in a too loud rig
George
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Mike Rivers
 
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Default Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020


In article writes:

My mics are a KM84 Moded selected & modified by Klaus Heyne for
smaller stringed instruments and I have a TLM-103 for vocals.
Amplification is via the internal amplifiers in the the Mackie 450's


Mostly I have been using a transducer on the
instruments and there is no feedback to deal with. Now I need to use
the vocal mic and since I will be having my feedback problems again, I
may as well use the KM84 again for the instrument. That means two
lines with mics instead of just the one.

Without the sabineI find that I get marvelous feedback at almost all
settings when it's loud enough to be heard adequately in the listening
area.


I know this isn't what you want to hear, but there are other things
that you should be doing to reduce the potential for feedback before
you throw filters at it. The Sabine units work well, but they will
only make the best of a bad situation. It's better to make the system
better - and by "system" I don't just mean the microphones, micer, and
speakers, but the room and the source too.

I have a gut feeling that the next thing you're going to say is that
you have no choice but to place the speakers BEHIND you. That's a
perfect setup for feedback - speakers pointing toward microphones.
It's also absurd that you have no choice in this matter. If this is
the situation, first fix it.

Are you using monitors? That's another feedback generator, but
equalization of the monitors plus proper placement will go a long way
toward reducing feedback potential. Perhaps the place for your Sabine
gadget is in the monitor path rather than the house signal path if
your speakers are actually in a reasonable place.

Finally, mic technique is really important. The more direct signal
from the source that goes into the mic, the more volume you can get
before there's enough gain so that signal from other than the source
(which can cause feedback) gets amplified sufficiently. It's easy to
learn to sing very close to a vocal mic, but it's not so easy (nor
does it usually sound very good) to get an acoustic instrument really
close to a mic. Not only that, but you're going to move, and turning
a guitar a few degrees can change reflections so that sound from the
speakers that was blocked by the guitar or reflected away from the
mics is not reflected toward the mics.

Lastly, just how loud are you running things? Feedback is a result of
too much gain, which is usually what's required to get loud enough.
Perhaps a quieter venue would solve all your problems.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo


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megalomando
 
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Default Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020

hello Mike,


My mics are a KM84 Moded selected & modified by Klaus Heyne for
smaller stringed instruments and I have a TLM-103 for vocals.
Amplification is via the internal amplifiers in the the Mackie 450's


Mostly I have been using a transducer on the
instruments and there is no feedback to deal with. Now I need to use
the vocal mic and since I will be having my feedback problems again, I
may as well use the KM84 again for the instrument. That means two
lines with mics instead of just the one.

Without the sabineI find that I get marvelous feedback at almost all
settings when it's loud enough to be heard adequately in the listening
area.


I know this isn't what you want to hear, but there are other things
that you should be doing to reduce the potential for feedback before
you throw filters at it. The Sabine units work well, but they will
only make the best of a bad situation. It's better to make the system
better - and by "system" I don't just mean the microphones, micer, and
speakers, but the room and the source too.


The room I have no control over. I get hired, I show up, they tell me
where to play and the best I can do is select the best speaker
placement I can find.

I have a gut feeling that the next thing you're going to say is that
you have no choice but to place the speakers BEHIND you. That's a
perfect setup for feedback - speakers pointing toward microphones.
It's also absurd that you have no choice in this matter. If this is
the situation, first fix it.


No, that's thankfully never happened yet. Sometimes the speakers are
to the side but never behind me.

Are you using monitors? That's another feedback generator, but
equalization of the monitors plus proper placement will go a long way
toward reducing feedback potential. Perhaps the place for your Sabine
gadget is in the monitor path rather than the house signal path if
your speakers are actually in a reasonable place.


No monitors. As I play solo what I can hear isn't overshadowed by
something else. Fortunately for me I don't have the luxury of house
speakers. When those times come that there are house monitors I let
the house sound man do the gut work. All I do is diddle & get paid for
it.

Finally, mic technique is really important. The more direct signal
from the source that goes into the mic, the more volume you can get
before there's enough gain so that signal from other than the source
(which can cause feedback) gets amplified sufficiently. It's easy to
learn to sing very close to a vocal mic, but it's not so easy (nor
does it usually sound very good) to get an acoustic instrument really
close to a mic. Not only that, but you're going to move, and turning
a guitar a few degrees can change reflections so that sound from the
speakers that was blocked by the guitar or reflected away from the
mics is not reflected toward the mics.


Yes, so true. I used the transducer for a long time because I had 100%
control over the amplification. Since I'm now using guitar again &
vocals, all recent bets are off & I'm back to feedback experiences as
the mics are coming back into play.

Lastly, just how loud are you running things? Feedback is a result of
too much gain, which is usually what's required to get loud enough.
Perhaps a quieter venue would solve all your problems.


I'm an acoustic freak, I don't thrive on volume. I'd love to be
playing in a small chamber room with attentive listeners. I keep the
volums low. I don't recall having the Mackies at 60% of their analog
volume control maximum, ever.

The strangest thing was when I was outside, with a wall 30 feet in
front of me & me facing the wall. There was a very high wall 100 feet
behind me. The speakers were six feet in front of me facing tangental
to the walls and there were no walls for 300 feet on either side & I
was getting feedback like crazy at very low volumes. I could hear
normal conversations from people 10 feet from the speakers & directly
in the speakers path yet I was getting wolfs & ringings like crazy.
When I turned off the Sabine Solo I sounded like Hendrix. Without the
solo I couldn't get loud enough to be appreciated 50 feet away.

It's maddening. I had the problem with EV condensers, a RE-10 I
brought in for grins and the Neumann's seem to pick up fly farts at 20
feet and are even worse for feedback. The 103's are tougher to tame
than the KM84.

Hope this offers another bit of helpful info for you to help me out.

Thanks for the interest.

P.S. I'm asking another question about mic pre's & I'd appreciate your
input in this too if you wouldn't mind.

Cheers,

MM
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George Gleason
 
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Default Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020


"megalomando" wrote in message
...
hello Mike,

Feedback is not a mysterious demon that appears for no reason
feedback occurs when the amplified sound hits its source transducer at
equal to or greater than the target sound,
there are (about)8ways to deal with feedback

less gain on the mic
move the mic closer to the source
move(point) the speakers farther away from the source
use a (more) directional mic
use(more) directional speakers
turn down the speakers
selectivly reduce hot points with eq at the mic
selectivly reduce hot points with eq at the speakers


but they all resolve down to LESS amplified sound at the mic

accomplish this and you will not have feedback
you will not cheat the laws of physics
and there is a point where it will feedback regardless of what you do(short
of turning it off)

for info on feedback control and suppresion check out the tutorials at
www.rane.com (rane notes)
and
www.prosoundweb.com

george


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Scott Dorsey
 
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Default Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020

megalomando wrote:

It's maddening. I had the problem with EV condensers, a RE-10 I
brought in for grins and the Neumann's seem to pick up fly farts at 20
feet and are even worse for feedback. The 103's are tougher to tame
than the KM84.


None of these mikes are really designed for PA work. The 103 is very
weird off-axis, and anything that is peaky off-axis is going to have
feedback trouble. You want to be using mikes that are as tight as
possible, and have as narrow a pattern as possible. The RE-10s probably
are the closest you've got out of that list.

Try a Sennhesier 441 just for grins. You'll find the difference is like
night and day.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mike Rivers
 
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Default Sabine feedback exterminator 1802 vs 2020


In article writes:

The room I have no control over. I get hired, I show up, they tell me
where to play and the best I can do is select the best speaker
placement I can find.


In this case, you need to be prepared, and have the best speakers and
mics you can use which will help you to overcome your worst enemy,
which will be feedback. In a room like this, the audience will almost
never appreciate the subtle difference between a KM84 and an MD421,
but they might notice the not-subtle less tendency to feed back.

The strangest thing was when I was outside, with a wall 30 feet in
front of me & me facing the wall. There was a very high wall 100 feet
behind me. The speakers were six feet in front of me facing tangental
to the walls and there were no walls for 300 feet on either side & I
was getting feedback like crazy at very low volumes.


So the sound of the speakers bounces off the wall 30 feet in front of
you, and into the rear of the microphones.

P.S. I'm asking another question about mic pre's & I'd appreciate your
input in this too if you wouldn't mind.


Answered. To expand, you really should keep your entire system, which
necessarily includes the performance venues, pretty well matched
across the board. Since no single system will be appropriate for all
venues unless you're very selective about the gigs you take (hard to
do when you're not famous enough to have your own sound crew) there
are certain things that will be fixed - in your case your choice of
speakers, compounded by the fact that you usually can't optimize their
placement. This is so much more significant than any small and
little-appreciated improvement in sound quality that you'll get from a
new mic preamp that it doesn't make sense in investing in one for this
application.

If you were going to buy a mic preamp for the studio and wanted to
take it on live gigs too, that would be another story - it won't HURT
the live gig, but it won't make that much difference either until you
can make a significant improvement on the other end of the chain.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
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