[chris ruth]

Any recommendations for mics that may be an upgrade from Oktava
MK-012s for recording classical guitar.
Let pre-empt some of your questions

room - ok, treated so kind of 'dead' on purpose
guitar - great!
player - ok (well it's me, i can post some recordings if you want to
gauge that)
equipment - usbpre 2 and laptop...that's it!
I will also do some guitar orchestra (boston guitar orchestra)
recordings live, and spaces vary alot.

thats
Chris

[swanny]

On 9/12/2011 3:38 PM, chris ruth wrote:
Any recommendations for mics that may be an upgrade from Oktava
MK-012s for recording classical guitar.
Let pre-empt some of your questions

room - ok, treated so kind of 'dead' on purpose
guitar - great!
player - ok (well it's me, i can post some recordings if you want to
gauge that)
equipment - usbpre 2 and laptop...that's it!
I will also do some guitar orchestra (boston guitar orchestra)
recordings live, and spaces vary alot.

thats
Chris

AKG C451 ?

[Nate Najar]

schoeps cmc 641

trust me

[Charles Tomaras]

"Nate Najar" wrote in message
news:29676328.378.1323411241479.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqj4...
schoeps cmc 641

trust me

Why would you recommend the Schoeps MK41 capsule for solo classical guitar
in a dead room? Seems an MK4 cardiod would be a better choice.

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 22:33:05 -0800, "Charles Tomaras"
wrote:



"Nate Najar" wrote in message
news:29676328.378.1323411241479.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqj4...
schoeps cmc 641

trust me

Why would you recommend the Schoeps MK41 capsule for solo classical guitar
in a dead room? Seems an MK4 cardiod would be a better choice.

If the room is dead there is no need for a cardioid. Much better to
keep the smoother response of the omni.

d

[Arny Krueger[_4_]]

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 22:33:05 -0800, "Charles Tomaras"
wrote:



"Nate Najar" wrote in message
news:29676328.378.1323411241479.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqj4...
schoeps cmc 641

trust me

Why would you recommend the Schoeps MK41 capsule for solo classical
guitar
in a dead room? Seems an MK4 cardiod would be a better choice.

If the room is dead there is no need for a cardioid. Much better to
keep the smoother response of the omni.

Not only that, but one of the justifications for high priced cardioids is
their allegedly superior off-axis response. With omnis, off-axis response is
strongly defined by the diaphragm's diameter.

Question to the OP - have you tried the omni capsule for your MK-012?

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Don Pearce wrote:

If the room is dead there is no need for a cardioid. Much better to
keep the smoother response of the omni.

Ah, we get to disagree Don, depending of course on whether the room is dead
but nice sounding or dead and boring.

To reap the omni benefits requires a well sounding room.

Also the off axis response doesn't really matter if there is no room sound
that gets influenced by it.

d

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 15:20:02 +0100, "Peter Larsen"
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

If the room is dead there is no need for a cardioid. Much better to
keep the smoother response of the omni.

Ah, we get to disagree Don, depending of course on whether the room is dead
but nice sounding or dead and boring.

To reap the omni benefits requires a well sounding room.

Also the off axis response doesn't really matter if there is no room sound
that gets influenced by it.

d

Kind regards

Peter Larsen



Dead is dead. Considering whether it is nice sounding or not is a
little like asking whether a light that is switched off is better with
a blue bulb or a pink one.

As for off axis not mattering in a dead room - that is exactly why I
suggested using an omni instead. The on-axis response of an omni is
generally much better than that of its cardioid equivalent.

In a live room, of course, the situation is more complex (and much
more fun). If the room sound is good, then moving an omni back a
little might be good. This is not usually the best solution with a
cardioid, because it inevitably has a much more coloured response
off-axis that will not improve things. There are many combinations,
not all of them euphonic.

d

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 09:20:02 -0500, Peter Larsen wrote
(in article ):

Ah, we get to disagree Don, depending of course on whether the room is dead
but nice sounding or dead and boring

+1!

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Scott Dorsey]

Charles Tomaras wrote:
"Nate Najar" wrote in message
news:29676328.378.1323411241479.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqj4...
schoeps cmc 641

trust me

Why would you recommend the Schoeps MK41 capsule for solo classical guitar
in a dead room? Seems an MK4 cardiod would be a better choice.

From my perspective, I will almost always take the MK41 over the MK4. If
you want more ambience, just pull it farther away!
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Charles Tomaras]

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Charles Tomaras wrote:
"Nate Najar" wrote in message
news:29676328.378.1323411241479.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqj4...
schoeps cmc 641

trust me

Why would you recommend the Schoeps MK41 capsule for solo classical
guitar
in a dead room? Seems an MK4 cardiod would be a better choice.

From my perspective, I will almost always take the MK41 over the MK4. If
you want more ambience, just pull it farther away!
--scott

I've not used mine for classical guitar, nor much music for that matter but
I do have many hours of dialog and interview experience with my Schoeps
stuff and almost always prefer the sound of the MK4 over the MK41 if the
room sound and camera headroom will allow.

[chris ruth]

On Dec 9, 12:29*pm, "Charles Tomaras" wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message

...

Charles Tomaras wrote:
"Nate Najar" wrote in message
news:29676328.378.1323411241479.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqj4...
schoeps cmc 641

trust me

Why would you recommend *the Schoeps MK41 capsule for solo classical
guitar
in a dead room? Seems an MK4 cardiod would be a better choice.

From my perspective, I will almost always take the MK41 over the MK4. *If
you want more ambience, just pull it farther away!
--scott

I've not used mine for classical guitar, nor much music for that matter but
I do have many hours of dialog and interview experience with my Schoeps
stuff and almost always prefer the sound of the MK4 over the MK41 if the
room sound and camera headroom will allow.

WAIT. You guys are great but i think i should give some more info (as
usual)

Budget ~ $800.

I'd like the mic to work in a variety of settings since i will be
doing some live recordings, but mainly, for my personal use, it will
be a small room with a lot of dampening material (ala ethan winer's
recommendations).

Maybe i should stick with the Octava MK-012s for the small room
recording and just get another mic for live??
I have omni and cardiod capsules for the octavas.

thanks

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 12:29:58 -0500, Charles Tomaras wrote
(in article ):

I've not used mine for classical guitar, nor much music for that matter but
I do have many hours of dialog and interview experience with my Schoeps
stuff and almost always prefer the sound of the MK4 over the MK41 if the
room sound and camera headroom will allow.


Tried the mk4 and mk41 and went the other way. Liked the mk41 better.

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 01:33:05 -0500, Charles Tomaras wrote
(in article ):



"Nate Najar" wrote in message
news:29676328.378.1323411241479.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqj4...
schoeps cmc 641

trust me

Why would you recommend the Schoeps MK41 capsule for solo classical guitar
in a dead room? Seems an MK4 cardiod would be a better choice.

1. He didn't say totally dead.

2. Pull it back a bit.

I tried both here before going with the cmc641.

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

chris ruth wrote:

Any recommendations for mics that may be an upgrade from Oktava
MK-012s for recording classical guitar.
Let pre-empt some of your questions

room - ok, treated so kind of 'dead' on purpose

This is not good, because it - in my opinion - rules the best choice out,
DPA 4006 or similar.

guitar - great!

This is good.

player - ok (well it's me, i can post some recordings if you want to
gauge that)

For you to fix if not adequate.

equipment - usbpre 2 and laptop...that's it!
I will also do some guitar orchestra (boston guitar orchestra)
recordings live, and spaces vary alot.

Josephson C42, Shure KSM 141/137, AKG CK 451. All need suitable treble eq,
whatever that is. Do NOT go too close, to record an entire instrument you
need to be "instrument size" away from it. My best recordings of guitar in a
room are made with mic higher than players head, ie. angled perhaps 45
degrees down.

KSM 141 is the most useful one of those listed because of its dual
personality, but ambience and perspective tends to be better on the other
two when used for ensemble miking. Getting minimum phase EQ right helps a
lot, but conceptually the Shure seems to be a spot microphone rather than an
ensemble microphone - great for choir tho!

Recording guitar for track use and guitar in a room are two very different
recordings and thus come with different mic choices and placements. Based on
Ty Ford's mic test a - preferably pair of - Neumann tlm 102's ARE on my
"look for list". I do not have any personal experience with the tlm 102 so
while it does appear to be excellent it is premature for me to comment on
its usefulnes but I am thinking track use, comments are appreciated if
available.

And what the other guys said. With my existing setup my first choice would
be C42 for you as well as for the guitar orchestra. You should also check
the MKH 8040, to me it sounds as if Sennheiser have been in the Neumann
design archive, ie. eerily like the KM84 as I _recall_ a pair I borrowed and
stupidly did not buy in 1975 because they clipped my A77. Note: _not_ a
valid AB comparison!

Note: I instinctively dislike laptops for location recordings because they
are independently usable objects that are sellable at a shady beerjoint, the
Good Book says not to tempt ...

Chris

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[PStamler]

I say the Schoepses if you have the money, or perhaps Sennheiser
MKH40s. I also second the recommendation of Neumann TLM102s -- I
suspect they'd make a very good ORTF pair. Likewise Microtech Gefell
M930s.

Peace,
Paul

[Ty Ford]

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 03:29:55 -0500, Peter Larsen wrote
(in article ):

Recording guitar for track use and guitar in a room are two very different
recordings and thus come with different mic choices and placements. Based on
Ty Ford's mic test a - preferably pair of - Neumann tlm 102's ARE on my "look

for list". I do not have any personal experience with the tlm 102 so while it

does appear to be excellent it is premature for me to comment on its
usefulnes but I am thinking track use, comments are appreciated if available.

You're right, Peter. The TLM 102 are contenders along with cmc641 and TLM 67.
Regards,

Ty Ford


--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[hank alrich]

chris ruth wrote:

Any recommendations for mics that may be an upgrade from Oktava
MK-012s for recording classical guitar.
Let pre-empt some of your questions

room - ok, treated so kind of 'dead' on purpose
guitar - great!
player - ok (well it's me, i can post some recordings if you want to
gauge that)
equipment - usbpre 2 and laptop...that's it!
I will also do some guitar orchestra (boston guitar orchestra)
recordings live, and spaces vary alot.

thats
Chris

I think you've omitted one important parameter.

How much are you willing to spend, what's your max outlay for this
upgrade?

If not so much, Arny's suggestion of omni caps for your Oktavas could be
a fine next step. If more but not outrageously more, Ty's Josephson C42
MP's are a good ticket. Up from there the Schoeps are fine tools,
regardless of your choice of caps, omni, card, or hyper.

There are other options, like the Brauner VM1S, or Josephson C700S.

Your playing will turn out to make the biggest difference. After that
mic configuration and placement will be the dominanat factors affecting
recording quality. Feeding into that last item are your budget and the
way different configurations work in your room.

If you you listen now to the recordings you have made with your present
setup, how do you personally rate the playing, and the mic config and
placement?

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

..

[Mark]

Your playing will turn out to make the biggest difference. After that
mic configuration and placement will be the dominanat factors affecting
recording quality.



I was hoping someone would mention that...

Mark

[chris ruth]

On Dec 10, 11:39*am, Mark wrote:
Your playing will turn out to make the biggest difference. After that
mic configuration and placement will be the dominanat factors affecting
recording quality.

I was hoping someone would mention that...

Mark

the playing is fine. The guitar sounds great to the ear.
Again, the problem is, no matter what configuration i try, i need to
pout the mics withing 6 inches of the guitar otherwise it sounds bad.
So i think i'm missing some of the 'sound?' of the whole guitar, as it
would sound if you sat a few feet in front of it.

[Mark]

On Dec 10, 11:59*am, chris ruth wrote:
On Dec 10, 11:39*am, Mark wrote:

Your playing will turn out to make the biggest difference. After that
mic configuration and placement will be the dominanat factors affecting
recording quality.

I was hoping someone would mention that...

Mark

the playing is fine. The guitar sounds great to the ear.
Again, the problem is, no matter what configuration i try, i need to
pout the mics withing 6 inches of the guitar otherwise it sounds bad.
So i think i'm missing some of the 'sound?' of the whole guitar, as it
would sound if you sat a few feet in front of it.

i didn't mean to insult the playing...

my point was that the playing and the mic LOCATION are much more
important compared to the exact model of mic...
except for the choice of omni vs non omni that is also major...


if you have 2 tracks, record one of each and mix to taste.


Mark

[hank alrich]

chris ruth wrote:

On Dec 10, 11:39 am, Mark wrote:
Your playing will turn out to make the biggest difference. After that
mic configuration and placement will be the dominanat factors affecting
recording quality.

I was hoping someone would mention that...

Mark

the playing is fine. The guitar sounds great to the ear.
Again, the problem is, no matter what configuration i try, i need to
pout the mics withing 6 inches of the guitar otherwise it sounds bad.
So i think i'm missing some of the 'sound?' of the whole guitar, as it
would sound if you sat a few feet in front of it.

When I record solo guitar I like to have the mic pair 3' - 5' away.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[hank alrich]

Mark wrote:


Your playing will turn out to make the biggest difference. After that
mic configuration and placement will be the dominanat factors affecting
recording quality.



I was hoping someone would mention that...

Mark

Well, I play guitar and right there is where my own troubles begin. g

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Ty Ford]

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 23:38:56 -0500, chris ruth wrote
(in article
):

Any recommendations for mics that may be an upgrade from Oktava
MK-012s for recording classical guitar.
Let pre-empt some of your questions

room - ok, treated so kind of 'dead' on purpose
guitar - great!
player - ok (well it's me, i can post some recordings if you want to
gauge that)
equipment - usbpre 2 and laptop...that's it!
I will also do some guitar orchestra (boston guitar orchestra)
recordings live, and spaces vary alot.

thats
Chris

Schoeps CMC641
TLM 67

Most classical folks are pretty sensitive about the plasticky sound of the
1st and 2nd strings. Using a mic with a bright top end increases the plink.

The mics I've mentioned above don't.

Regards,

Ty Ford

--Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services
Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com
Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA

[Nate Najar]

I have a new response to this query based on recent experience. My initial response is schoeps mk41. My new response is Aea ku4. Sorry for the increase in price.

N