[Carey Carlan]

I'm going to be recording one of my usual clients at their annual fund-
raising gala next weekend. They've asked me to provide sound reinforcement
as well as recording. I hate doing both at once, but they're good clients.

My 24-track Mackie has enough channels to record the concert. I want to
send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations? How about amp and speakers? What gotchas to look for?

Room is typical large hotel ballroom. Full symphony orchestra (not amp'ed)
with a dozen or so spot mics for combo, soloists, podium, etc. A room full
of audience eating dinner during the performance with the usual clinking
glasses and conversation during the program.

[Scott Dorsey]

Carey Carlan wrote:
I'm going to be recording one of my usual clients at their annual fund-
raising gala next weekend. They've asked me to provide sound reinforcement
as well as recording. I hate doing both at once, but they're good clients.

My 24-track Mackie has enough channels to record the concert. I want to
send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations? How about amp and speakers? What gotchas to look for?

Room is typical large hotel ballroom. Full symphony orchestra (not amp'ed)
with a dozen or so spot mics for combo, soloists, podium, etc. A room full
of audience eating dinner during the performance with the usual clinking
glasses and conversation during the program.

Rent a speaker system with a nice wide pattern, and as clean a vocal
quality as you can find locally. You want to match the coverage of the
orchestra and you aren't going to have a whole lot of low end in the mains.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Lugnuts]

What kind of work do you do for them usually? recording? Are they
usually going through mics to a speaker system? How close to the
stage is the audience? How early can you show up etc? Is there
vocals? I did a recording of a three piece at a wedding. It came out
awful. The main problems were they were very close to the audience
and right back against a wall which included a large window. The drums
were in a corner and the drummer had an open ended kick drum with no
damping and was next to the upright bassist. The only thing going to
the speaker system was vocals but the bassist was feeding back (he
claimed it never happened before). I think the feedback might have
been a combination of the resonant frequency of the window and the
undamped kick speaker which was angled towards him.

Conversely I've done full rock band recording while providing sound
reinforcement under similar circumstances that came out well. The
volume to crowd noise ratio is much more favorable and crowd noise in
a rock recording is often seen as an enhancement (if they are
enthusiastic).

But the thing is, if you have to show up and set up the PA, Mics,
recording equipment etc at a venue you are not use to working and/or
you are not use to doiong live sound it can be a bear. Might be good
to get the most directional cardiod patterns possible on your mics.

Mike

On Feb 16, 5:26 am, Carey Carlan wrote:
I'm going to be recording one of my usual clients at their annual fund-
raising gala next weekend. They've asked me to provide sound reinforcement
as well as recording. I hate doing both at once, but they're good clients.

My 24-track Mackie has enough channels to record the concert. I want to
send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations? How about amp and speakers? What gotchas to look for?

Room is typical large hotel ballroom. Full symphony orchestra (not amp'ed)
with a dozen or so spot mics for combo, soloists, podium, etc. A room full
of audience eating dinner during the performance with the usual clinking
glasses and conversation during the program.

[kooz]

On Feb 16, 9:52 am, "Lugnuts" wrote:
What kind of work do you do for them usually? recording? Are they
usually going through mics to a speaker system? How close to the
stage is the audience? How early can you show up etc? Is there
vocals? I did a recording of a three piece at a wedding. It came out
awful. The main problems were they were very close to the audience
and right back against a wall which included a large window. The drums
were in a corner and the drummer had an open ended kick drum with no
damping and was next to the upright bassist. The only thing going to
the speaker system was vocals but the bassist was feeding back (he
claimed it never happened before). I think the feedback might have
been a combination of the resonant frequency of the window and the
undamped kick speaker which was angled towards him.

Conversely I've done full rock band recording while providing sound
reinforcement under similar circumstances that came out well. The
volume to crowd noise ratio is much more favorable and crowd noise in
a rock recording is often seen as an enhancement (if they are
enthusiastic).

But the thing is, if you have to show up and set up the PA, Mics,
recording equipment etc at a venue you are not use to working and/or
you are not use to doiong live sound it can be a bear. Might be good
to get the most directional cardiod patterns possible on your mics.

Mike

On Feb 16, 5:26 am, Carey Carlan wrote:

I'm going to be recording one of my usual clients at their annual fund-
raising gala next weekend. They've asked me to provide sound reinforcement
as well as recording. I hate doing both at once, but they're good clients.

My 24-track Mackie has enough channels to record the concert. I want to
send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations? How about amp and speakers? What gotchas to look for?

Room is typical large hotel ballroom. Full symphony orchestra (not amp'ed)
with a dozen or so spot mics for combo, soloists, podium, etc. A room full
of audience eating dinner during the performance with the usual clinking
glasses and conversation during the program.

Print your live mix to track(s) as a reference for later.

To keep overhead for you low (time-wise, financially and complexity),
tap into the ballroom's sound system as fill...and ask for the hotel A/
V team's help/advice. They know the room better than you ever will,
if they're worth their paycheque.

"Carey Carlan" wrote in message
...
I'm going to be recording one of my usual clients at their annual fund-
raising gala next weekend. They've asked me to provide sound
reinforcement
as well as recording. I hate doing both at once, but they're good
clients.

My 24-track Mackie

24 track mackie what? Mixer? Recorder?

has enough channels to record the concert. I want to
send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations? How about amp and speakers? What gotchas to look for?

Are you bringing 24 preamps, too? Or are you using board preamps? Will the
board have inserts? Do you have to provide monitor mixes for the musos? Live
mix to tape/HD only, or are you multitracking for a later mix?

I've done this type of gig. Unless you want a 16-hour day, I'd highly
recommend hiring an assistant.

If you are familiar with a particular digital board with ADAT outs, rent it.
If you aren't, don't use a digital board.

Many questions. Need the info... :^)

Mikey Wozniak
Nova Music Productions
This sig is haiku

Room is typical large hotel ballroom. Full symphony orchestra (not
amp'ed)
with a dozen or so spot mics for combo, soloists, podium, etc. A room
full
of audience eating dinner during the performance with the usual clinking
glasses and conversation during the program.

[Carey Carlan]

"Lugnuts" wrote in
oups.com:

What kind of work do you do for them usually? recording?

Yes, recording live "symphony" concerts.

Are they usually going through mics to a speaker system?

No
How close to the stage is the audience?

The dance floor abuts the stage, but closest tables are about 30' away.

How early can you show up etc?

Early enough

Is there vocals? I don't think so. Just speaking.

I did a recording of a three piece at a wedding. It came out
awful. The main problems were they were very close to the audience
and right back against a wall which included a large window. The drums
were in a corner and the drummer had an open ended kick drum with no
damping and was next to the upright bassist. The only thing going to
the speaker system was vocals but the bassist was feeding back (he
claimed it never happened before). I think the feedback might have
been a combination of the resonant frequency of the window and the
undamped kick speaker which was angled towards him.

This is a large, young symphony orchestra. Acoustics are horrid, noise
is repressive, but expectations are low. The bass should have his own
amp.

Conversely I've done full rock band recording while providing sound
reinforcement under similar circumstances that came out well. The
volume to crowd noise ratio is much more favorable and crowd noise in
a rock recording is often seen as an enhancement (if they are
enthusiastic).

I'm not reinforcing the whole group, just spots and solos.

But the thing is, if you have to show up and set up the PA, Mics,
recording equipment etc at a venue you are not use to working and/or
you are not use to doiong live sound it can be a bear. Might be good
to get the most directional cardiod patterns possible on your mics.

This is an annual affair. It's always a bear. I'm OK with setting up
the mics. I just conflict on recording vs SR. The two are usually at
odds.

[Carey Carlan]

wrote in
nk.net:

My 24-track Mackie

24 track mackie what? Mixer? Recorder?

recorder. SDR 24/96.

has enough channels to record the concert. I want to
send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations? How about amp and speakers? What gotchas to look
for?

Are you bringing 24 preamps, too? Or are you using board preamps? Will
the board have inserts? Do you have to provide monitor mixes for the
musos? Live mix to tape/HD only, or are you multitracking for a later
mix?

The signal going to the PA mixer will be line level captures out of my
recorder. Nothing goes to the speakers that I don't already have on disc.

I've done this type of gig. Unless you want a 16-hour day, I'd highly
recommend hiring an assistant.

It's usually a 16 hour day.

If you are familiar with a particular digital board with ADAT outs,
rent it. If you aren't, don't use a digital board.

OK, if not a digital board then a TRS snake and analog.

[Andy Eng]

Carey Carlan wrote:

snip

This is a large, young symphony orchestra. Acoustics are horrid, noise
is repressive, but expectations are low.

I think this is your pivot point....

Do your setup and come showtime, let somebody else run the SR...

If you located the recorder close enough and things run amuck, just
reach over and hit the mutes...

Best,
Andy

[Arny Krueger]

"Carey Carlan" wrote in message

I'm going to be recording one of my usual clients at
their annual fund- raising gala next weekend. They've
asked me to provide sound reinforcement as well as
recording. I hate doing both at once, but they're good
clients.

My 24-track Mackie has enough channels to record the
concert. I want to send the three ADAT output to a 24
channel board that I must rent. Recommendations?

The Yamaha digital boards have ADAT I/O with the right plug-in board
installed.

"Carey Carlan" wrote in message
...
wrote in
nk.net:

My 24-track Mackie

24 track mackie what? Mixer? Recorder?

recorder. SDR 24/96.

has enough channels to record the concert. I want to
send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations? How about amp and speakers? What gotchas to look
for?

Are you bringing 24 preamps, too? Or are you using board preamps? Will
the board have inserts? Do you have to provide monitor mixes for the
musos? Live mix to tape/HD only, or are you multitracking for a later
mix?

The signal going to the PA mixer will be line level captures out of my
recorder. Nothing goes to the speakers that I don't already have on disc.

You have line level mics going into the recorder? :^)

Mikey
Nova Music Productions

[TimPerry]

Carey Carlan wrote:
I'm going to be recording one of my usual clients at their annual
fund- raising gala next weekend. They've asked me to provide sound
reinforcement as well as recording. I hate doing both at once, but
they're good clients.

My 24-track Mackie has enough channels to record the concert. I want
to send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations?

is this just to monitor recorded channels?

How about amp and speakers?

you are probably going to have to settle for what is available locally. if
you have several choices folks can steer you to what has worked best for
them in the past.


What gotchas to look for?

the gotchas are the rental equipment. checking a large mixer is a time
consuming project. it seldom is done between rentals by typical music
stores. if it has dead or intermittent channels life will be hell for you.

i think probably you could run the mackie live and use direct outs for
recording (assuming it's the 24.8).

another gotcha is condenser mics. those fine sounding babies that sound so
great in recording often become feedback hell when live speakers are
present. i would in this circumstance use both graphic EQ and active
feedback suppression on the mains. my latest toy the Behringer DEQ 2496 puts
it all in one package.

if you are used to setting up side stage i would suggest you change your
set up to be in the sound field of the speakers. if you cant hear, you cant
mix.


Room is typical large hotel ballroom. Full symphony orchestra (not
amp'ed) with a dozen or so spot mics for combo, soloists, podium,
etc. A room full of audience eating dinner during the performance
with the usual clinking glasses and conversation during the program.

if you can get them to do a technical rehearsal before the show you can work
out the bugs and everyone will shine.

[hank alrich]

Carey Carlan wrote:

My 24-track Mackie has enough channels to record the concert. I want to
send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations? How about amp and speakers? What gotchas to look for?

Can you monitor inputs from the recorder, or only playback?

--
ha
"Iraq" is Arabic for "Vietnam"

[Carey Carlan]

(hank alrich) wrote in news:1htnb8e.1kkgiyi1nq5iznN%
:

Carey Carlan wrote:

My 24-track Mackie has enough channels to record the concert. I want to
send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations? How about amp and speakers? What gotchas to look for?

Can you monitor inputs from the recorder, or only playback?

Yes, I can lock it to monitor the inputs. No latency.

[Carey Carlan]

"TimPerry" wrote in
:

Carey Carlan wrote:
I'm going to be recording one of my usual clients at their annual
fund- raising gala next weekend. They've asked me to provide sound
reinforcement as well as recording. I hate doing both at once, but
they're good clients.

My 24-track Mackie has enough channels to record the concert. I want
to send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I must rent.
Recommendations?

is this just to monitor recorded channels?

I wasn't clear. It's an SDR 24/96 recorder. All channels to PA (and
several not) go through the recorder, then line levels out of the
recorder to a PA mixer.

What gotchas to look for?

the gotchas are the rental equipment. checking a large mixer is a time
consuming project. it seldom is done between rentals by typical music
stores. if it has dead or intermittent channels life will be hell for
you.

Good point.

another gotcha is condenser mics. those fine sounding babies that
sound so great in recording often become feedback hell when live
speakers are present. i would in this circumstance use both graphic EQ
and active feedback suppression on the mains. my latest toy the
Behringer DEQ 2496 puts it all in one package.

I'm expecting (hoping) that the levels won't be high enough to feed back.
The primary sound source (the orchestra) won't be amplified--just spot
mics and solos. The speakers must be in front of the group simply
because there's no room behind, above, or to the side.

if you are used to setting up side stage i would suggest you change
your set up to be in the sound field of the speakers. if you cant
hear, you cant mix.

I must set up out front at this program because the 100 piece orchestra
takes up the entire end of the hall. There's no room back there for me.

Room is typical large hotel ballroom. Full symphony orchestra (not
amp'ed) with a dozen or so spot mics for combo, soloists, podium,
etc. A room full of audience eating dinner during the performance
with the usual clinking glasses and conversation during the program.

if you can get them to do a technical rehearsal before the show you
can work out the bugs and everyone will shine.

There's a full dress rehearsal 4 hours before performance.

[Carey Carlan]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in
:

Rent a speaker system with a nice wide pattern, and as clean a vocal
quality as you can find locally. You want to match the coverage of
the orchestra and you aren't going to have a whole lot of low end in
the mains. --scott

I'm thinking two speakers, one either side of the conductor's podium (in
front of the first violins and cellos) running mono and angled away from
center, angle determined by the speaker pattern.

[Scott Dorsey]

Carey Carlan wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote in
:

Rent a speaker system with a nice wide pattern, and as clean a vocal
quality as you can find locally. You want to match the coverage of
the orchestra and you aren't going to have a whole lot of low end in
the mains.

I'm thinking two speakers, one either side of the conductor's podium (in
front of the first violins and cellos) running mono and angled away from
center, angle determined by the speaker pattern.

They may need to be pulled farther to the sides in order to improve gain
before feedback. But do a test... if there's a problem, you'll know.

Having the speakers front and center will give a more natural effect,
though, if you can get away with it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Carey Carlan]

(Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:er7815$api$1
@panix2.panix.com:

Carey Carlan wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote in
:

Rent a speaker system with a nice wide pattern, and as clean a vocal
quality as you can find locally. You want to match the coverage of
the orchestra and you aren't going to have a whole lot of low end in
the mains.

I'm thinking two speakers, one either side of the conductor's podium (in
front of the first violins and cellos) running mono and angled away from
center, angle determined by the speaker pattern.

They may need to be pulled farther to the sides in order to improve gain
before feedback. But do a test... if there's a problem, you'll know.

Having the speakers front and center will give a more natural effect,
though, if you can get away with it.

The conductor will be speaking from the podium. If I center them I have to
put them low. My minimal experience with SR tells me that kills the high
end to the back of the hall.

[TimPerry]

Carey Carlan wrote:
I'm going to be recording one of my usual clients at their annual
fund- raising gala next weekend. They've asked me to provide sound
reinforcement as well as recording. I hate doing both at once, but
they're good clients.

My 24-track Mackie has enough channels to record the concert. I
want to send the three ADAT output to a 24 channel board that I
must rent. Recommendations?

is this just to monitor recorded channels?

I wasn't clear. It's an SDR 24/96 recorder. All channels to PA (and
several not) go through the recorder, then line levels out of the
recorder to a PA mixer.


i wouldn't have considered that approach, but if the recording hat and FOH
hat is on the same head i don't see why it couldn't work. usually the
record tweaks and live tweaks end up fighting each other. id go with a split
snake for the mics and run the boards separately... or use one board with
the record outs that are pre-EQ. then fix the record eq later.


I'm expecting (hoping) that the levels won't be high enough to feed
back.

it's good to have a positive outlook.

The primary sound source (the orchestra) won't be
amplified--just spot mics and solos. The speakers must be in front
of the group simply because there's no room behind, above, or to the
side.

that's the right place for them.

if you can get them to do a technical rehearsal before the show you
can work out the bugs and everyone will shine.

There's a full dress rehearsal 4 hours before performance.

best of luck and watch out for lighting guys and caterers who like to plug
into "your" circuit.