[[email protected]]

I need to tap the experienced audio pros here to try to find the right
mixer for my application:

I am rebuilding a small-ish TV studio. Here are the general
requirements for a new audio board:

INPUTS
8 inputs for mics (mono)

At least 12 STEREO inputs for VTR, Patch 1, Patch 2, Patch 3, Clip 1,
Clip 2, CD, Cassette, Turntable, DigiCart, Remote, etc. Here's the
rub: I'd LOVE these to each be on a single fader, rather than a pair.
I hope I don't have to get a custom modular mixer.

1 Additional line input for telephone hybrid.

All inputs should have a rough level set / trim

OUTPUTS/ROUTING
Usual program outputs, post master fader.

Control room outputs with their own level control

Send mix-minus to studio amp/speakers (everything but mics, so talent
can hear clips and live feeds)

Mix-minus for phone hybrid (to send everything back down the phone
line except the caller audio)

At least one send for EFX.

Another send would be great for IFB (interruptable foldback, to send a
reporter in the field a phone-line signal of eveything except
themselves - the satellite delays and causes an echo for the reporter)

Direct channel outs not necessary, but patch in/out points would be
useful.

No real issue on digital vs. analog, but digital ability to recall
snapshots would be nice.

Price as low as possible. I've checked the usual offerings in music
catalogs, but nothing quite does it.

OK: What's out there? Specifics would be nice.

[Arny Krueger]

wrote in message
...
I need to tap the experienced audio pros here to try to find the right
mixer for my application:

I am rebuilding a small-ish TV studio. Here are the general
requirements for a new audio board:

INPUTS
8 inputs for mics (mono)

At least 12 STEREO inputs for VTR, Patch 1, Patch 2, Patch 3, Clip 1,
Clip 2, CD, Cassette, Turntable, DigiCart, Remote, etc. Here's the
rub: I'd LOVE these to each be on a single fader, rather than a pair.
I hope I don't have to get a custom modular mixer.

IOW 24 mono inputs for line level inputs, plus the 8 mics.

1 Additional line input for telephone hybrid.

That gets you to 33. One more than a classic 32 input console.

All inputs should have a rough level set / trim

OUTPUTS/ROUTING
Usual program outputs, post master fader.

Control room outputs with their own level control

Send mix-minus to studio amp/speakers (everything but mics, so talent
can hear clips and live feeds)

Mix-minus for phone hybrid (to send everything back down the phone
line except the caller audio)

At least one send for EFX.

If a digital console, then there is a lot of EFX in the box.

Another send would be great for IFB (interruptable foldback, to send a
reporter in the field a phone-line signal of eveything except
themselves - the satellite delays and causes an echo for the reporter)

Direct channel outs not necessary, but patch in/out points would be
useful.

No real issue on digital vs. analog, but digital ability to recall
snapshots would be nice.

If there's any pattern to your work, then saved scenes are wonderful
(digital).

Price as low as possible. I've checked the usual offerings in music
catalogs, but nothing quite does it.

Most music catalogs are brain dead when it comes to anything but low end
consoles.

OK: What's out there? Specifics would be nice.

Looks to me like a DM2000 or 02R96 would do the job pretty nicely. You want
33 analog inputs, so you'd need two outboard rack unit expansions, with 7
spares. The 02R96 is not in Yamaha's catalog as a new product, but there are
a number of NOS with factory warranty still kicking around.

The DM1000 could cost substantially less money, but you'd have to put up
with doing more with faders on 2 layers and have more analog inputs and
outputs on expansion rack units. The 01V96 is only expandable to 32 inputs.

[Mike Rivers]

wrote:
I need to tap the experienced audio pros here to try to find the right
mixer for my application:
.. . . . .

Price as low as possible. I've checked the usual offerings in music
catalogs, but nothing quite does it.

I'd recommend that you check in a broadcast forum or newsgroup. This is
a bit out of line for the kind of work that most of us here do. You're
probably looking at a 40-input board, and direct mix-minus (as opposed
to a mix on an auxiliary bus that you create with the send knobs of each
channel but the one that's "minus") is pretty much a broadcast thing.
You could probably do it wiht a Mackie Onyx 80 series (a live sound
board) but it has a lot more outputs than you're likely to ever need.
But you might grow into it. I'll bet it will be cheaper than any board
you'd get from one of the manufacturers that deals exclusively with the
broadcast industry.


--
If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach
me he
double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers
)

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:
I am rebuilding a small-ish TV studio. Here are the general
requirements for a new audio board:

INPUTS
8 inputs for mics (mono)

At least 12 STEREO inputs for VTR, Patch 1, Patch 2, Patch 3, Clip 1,
Clip 2, CD, Cassette, Turntable, DigiCart, Remote, etc. Here's the
rub: I'd LOVE these to each be on a single fader, rather than a pair.
I hope I don't have to get a custom modular mixer.

You want a broadcast console, not a recording or PA console.

You can get nice ones from guys like Radio Systems and Audio Arts,
fancier ones from guys like Arrakis and Wheatstone, and cheaper ones
from guys like LPB. I believe even Soundcraft makes one.

1 Additional line input for telephone hybrid.

All inputs should have a rough level set / trim

Not a problem although with most of these consoles the trim controls
are locked up inside where it takes a screwdriver to get into them.
I suggest taking the regular screws out and putting security torx bits
in, if you're in a typical broadcast environment.

OUTPUTS/ROUTING
Usual program outputs, post master fader.

Control room outputs with their own level control

Send mix-minus to studio amp/speakers (everything but mics, so talent
can hear clips and live feeds)

On most of the broadcast consoles the studio speakers are muted when
the mikes are live. This is a better idea than using a mix minus for
the job.

Mix-minus for phone hybrid (to send everything back down the phone
line except the caller audio)

This is an option on some channel strips for some broadcast consoles,
but not all of them have it.

At least one send for EFX.

Would you be happy with an aux buss instead? Normally you have a switch
on each strip that assigns the input to either the program or aux buss. The
aux buss can be used to loop through into another studio or into an effects
unit.

Another send would be great for IFB (interruptable foldback, to send a
reporter in the field a phone-line signal of eveything except
themselves - the satellite delays and causes an echo for the reporter)

For that, I strongly suggest using a DA on the output, preferably one
with transformer isolation. You probably are going to want the console
output to be routable to a whole bunch of different places sooner or later.

Direct channel outs not necessary, but patch in/out points would be
useful.

No real issue on digital vs. analog, but digital ability to recall
snapshots would be nice.

Price as low as possible. I've checked the usual offerings in music
catalogs, but nothing quite does it.

OK: What's out there? Specifics would be nice.

Stop looking in music catalogues and go to a broadcast equipment supplier
like BSW or Harris-Allied. You might be able to find a used console for
cheap from Mooretronix or in the ads in the back of Radio World magazine
as long as you don't mind something a little clunky with knobs instead of
sliders.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[philper]

When I worked on broadcast these sorts of boards were custom speced by
the manufacturers to the users needs.
There is a lot of used equipment like this around for sale, esp. since
they are not great for regular music/PA/recording work. Maybe check
the auction sites if buying new is too expensive. Most boards I see
from the better known makers are made for PA or recording, and have
way too much of some things, not enough of others, and don't route,
mute and communicate with outboard gear in an efficient fashion.

Philip Perkins

[[email protected]]

On Oct 29, 12:18*pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
wrote:
I am rebuilding a small-ish TV studio. Here are the general
requirements for a new audio board:

INPUTS
8 inputs for mics (mono)

At least 12 STEREO inputs for VTR, Patch 1, Patch 2, Patch 3, Clip 1,
Clip 2, CD, Cassette, Turntable, DigiCart, Remote, etc. Here's the
rub: I'd LOVE these to each be on a single fader, rather than a pair.
I hope I don't have to get a custom modular mixer.

You want a broadcast console, not a recording or PA console.

You can get nice ones from guys like Radio Systems and Audio Arts,
fancier ones from guys like Arrakis and Wheatstone, and cheaper ones
from guys like LPB. *I believe even Soundcraft makes one.

1 Additional line input for telephone hybrid.
All inputs should have a rough level set / trim

Not a problem although with most of these consoles the trim controls
are locked up inside where it takes a screwdriver to get into them.
I suggest taking the regular screws out and putting security torx bits
in, if you're in a typical broadcast environment.



OUTPUTS/ROUTING
Usual program outputs, post master fader.

Control room outputs with their own level control

Send mix-minus to studio amp/speakers (everything but mics, so talent
can hear clips and live feeds)

On most of the broadcast consoles the studio speakers are muted when
the mikes are live. *This is a better idea than using a mix minus for
the job.

Mix-minus for phone hybrid (to send everything back down the phone
line except the caller audio)

This is an option on some channel strips for some broadcast consoles,
but not all of them have it.

At least one send for EFX.

Would you be happy with an aux buss instead? *Normally you have a switch
on each strip that assigns the input to either the program or aux buss. *The
aux buss can be used to loop through into another studio or into an effects
unit.

Another send would be great for IFB (interruptable foldback, to send a
reporter in the field a phone-line signal of eveything except
themselves - the satellite delays and causes an echo for the reporter)

For that, I strongly suggest using a DA on the output, preferably one
with transformer isolation. *You probably are going to want the console
output to be routable to a whole bunch of different places sooner or later.

[WillStG]

wrote:
I need to tap the experienced audio pros here to try to find the right
mixer for my application:

I am rebuilding a small-ish TV studio. Here are the general
requirements for a new audio board:

INPUTS
8 inputs for mics (mono)

At least 12 STEREO inputs for VTR, Patch 1, Patch 2, Patch 3, Clip 1,
Clip 2, CD, Cassette, Turntable, DigiCart, Remote, etc. Here's the
rub: I'd LOVE these to each be on a single fader, rather than a pair.
I hope I don't have to get a custom modular mixer.

1 Additional line input for telephone hybrid.

All inputs should have a rough level set / trim

OUTPUTS/ROUTING
Usual program outputs, post master fader.

Control room outputs with their own level control

Send mix-minus to studio amp/speakers (everything but mics, so talent
can hear clips and live feeds)

Mix-minus for phone hybrid (to send everything back down the phone
line except the caller audio)

At least one send for EFX.

Another send would be great for IFB (interruptable foldback, to send a
reporter in the field a phone-line signal of eveything except
themselves - the satellite delays and causes an echo for the reporter)

Direct channel outs not necessary, but patch in/out points would be
useful.

No real issue on digital vs. analog, but digital ability to recall
snapshots would be nice.

Price as low as possible. I've checked the usual offerings in music
catalogs, but nothing quite does it.

OK: What's out there? Specifics would be nice.

Perhaps a Yamaha DM1000 would be enough, they are small footprint,
full featured, ubiquitous and likely not unfamiliar to the Engineers
and Managers... Not difficult to rent one for a while to check out
either, which companies sometimes like to do before they commit to a
package. The basic config for the 48 input/20 output busses console
is; built in 16 analog Mic/Line, 4 Omni Line inputs, 12 Line outputs,
headphone outs, a couple Stereo digital ins and outs; you add cards
into the 2 slots to round out the I/O configuration needs. I've been
using one for last couple of weeks with 2 digital AES cards (2
connectors per card) which add 32 digital inputs. As you don't seem to
need a whole lot of mix minuses, you can build them from the
available 8 busses or 8 aux sends and still have spares for IFB's.
Isos, I'd use a direct out. While the DM1000 only has 16 faders (+ the
stereo master) on the top layer, you can create pairs of channels
vertically - so Fader/Channel One is the left channel of EVS A, and
the right side of EVS A is on Level Two Fader One (Channel 17). This
way you can have the one fader per VTR/EVS/Other source you want.

Channels have compression/gates/4 band eq and delay. Sounds pretty
good and the delay is important of course for your lip sync
adjustments. Not hard to figure out either.

The output routing of the console is recallable as a Library, not as
part of the main "Scene" recalls. The DM1000 also has 12 user
assignable buttons which you can assign an output library number to,
which is how I get around the console only having one Monitor section
selection section. I save a library recall that changes the output
feed to the Main Control Room (as opposed to the audio room), and
then assign the library number to a user assignable buttons. The Main
Control Room has it's own Volume pot next to the Director who the
levels themselves locally - nice sometimes to NOT have control some
things from Audio (cuts down on distracting requests.... g )

You can save your settings on a usb memory stick too. It's no C100 or
Alpha, but I like it ok. Good luck.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[WillStG]

BTW if the 16 faders on the DM1000 don't do it for you, the next step
up the Yamaha DM2000 has 24 channel control faders per layer and mix
minus Broadcast features built into the latest software. But that has
a larger footprint and it does cost a bit more. A lot of internal
effects on both boards.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

[[email protected]]

Thanks, Will and others, good suggestions.

Actually, MANY boards will do mix-minuses, just by using aux sends.
(For studio: pot up all the aux sends except the mics; for phone
return: pot up all the aux sends except the phone itself).

I was looking for an inexpensive Mackie/Behringer type board. Acually,
anything with 32 channels and at least 4 pre/post aux sends would do
it.

The odd-feature-out was having a bunch of stereo-on-one-fader inputs.
The broadcast boards I looked at - all mostly radio, not TV - were
very expensive and often custom. I'm suprised that the low-cost
manufacturers don't offer such boards: When I do live music, I OFTEN
take many stereo feeds (from guitar, keyboards, effects, etc), but I
have to put each on 2 faders! Greg Mackie, are you listening???

I want a low-cost 32-in board, 8 mono and 12 stereo!!! Or even 16
stereo, and I'll pre-mix the mics on a Shure Automatic Mixer...

And 4 switchable pre-post aux sends.

[Scott Dorsey]

wrote:

The odd-feature-out was having a bunch of stereo-on-one-fader inputs.
The broadcast boards I looked at - all mostly radio, not TV - were
very expensive and often custom. I'm suprised that the low-cost
manufacturers don't offer such boards: When I do live music, I OFTEN
take many stereo feeds (from guitar, keyboards, effects, etc), but I
have to put each on 2 faders! Greg Mackie, are you listening???

Those radio boards are available very cheaply on the surplus market,
though, because so many people are going to digital infrastructure.
So you can pick up a nice console for cheap.

I want a low-cost 32-in board, 8 mono and 12 stereo!!! Or even 16
stereo, and I'll pre-mix the mics on a Shure Automatic Mixer...

Radio Systems makes one. It's not cheap, but they turn up used at
reasonable prices. Also, remember with one of the broadcast console
you usually have three or four inputs per channel strip, switchable.
So as long as you know you're never going to need to fade from one
input to another, you can put them both on a strip. It's very common
to see a console with eight faders that has twenty inputs going into it.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[WillStG]

On Nov 7, 9:30*am, " wrote:
I want a low-cost 32-in board, 8 mono and 12 stereo!!! Or even 16
stereo, and I'll pre-mix the mics on a Shure Automatic Mixer...

And 4 switchable pre-post aux sends.

I saw a Soundcraft Delta for like $500 on craigslist recently, they're
boat anchors these days. Sometimes they have a bunch of stereo faders
depending how they are configured, you might keep an eye out for a
used Venue or Vienna as well. But Broadcasters want digital these
days, and even a used DM1000 will doubtless have fewer problems than
an old analog desk. You need quality breakout cables of course.

I've seen used DM1000's in the $3500 range, but if it was for my
personal use I'd either buy a Tascam DM4800 for around $4000 new, or
I've seen used DM3200's in the $2200 neighborhood. And stacking the
left and right faders vertically across fader layers on a digital
console works ok for ganging faders - unless you have to punch inputs
on and off all the time when you're mixing.

Will Miho
NY TV/Audio Post/Music/Live Sound Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..."