[muzician21]

Delving into the universe of what I sense I don't know about acoustics
and recording technology, I wonder if there are any considerations for
panning tracks besides seat-of-the-pants "what sounds good".

Say you've got horns and/or harmony vocals - possibly any mathematical
relationships that determine an ideal panning position relative to
other tracks? How type & amount of reverb or other FX might fit into
the picture, etc.

Thanks

[Scott Dorsey]

muzician21 wrote:
Delving into the universe of what I sense I don't know about acoustics
and recording technology, I wonder if there are any considerations for
panning tracks besides seat-of-the-pants "what sounds good".

If you put low end near the edges instead of in the center, you have
effectively reduce your bass headroom. (And obviously for an LP you have
a disaster). That's the only technical limitation.

Say you've got horns and/or harmony vocals - possibly any mathematical
relationships that determine an ideal panning position relative to
other tracks? How type & amount of reverb or other FX might fit into
the picture, etc.

Walk into the studio, listen to the band. Then go into the control room
and adjust the knobs so it sounds like it did in the studio.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2010-12-06 (ScottDorsey) said:
muzician21 wrote:
Delving into the universe of what I sense I don't know about
acoustics and recording technology, I wonder if there are any
considerations for panning tracks besides seat-of-the-pants "what
sounds good".
If you put low end near the edges instead of in the center, you have
effectively reduce your bass headroom. (And obviously for an LP
you have a disaster). That's the only technical limitation.
right, and even on cd it just sounds better with your low
freq stuff more centered.

Say you've got horns and/or harmony vocals - possibly any
mathematical relationships that determine an ideal panning
position relative to other tracks? How type & amount of reverb or
other FX might fit into the picture, etc.
Walk into the studio, listen to the band. Then go into the control
room and adjust the knobs so it sounds like it did in the studio.
Right, if you're actually recording a band all at once, but
I have a feeling this is a lot of midi based, and primarily
overdubs, probably home studio. Hence he probably isn't
able to walk into the studio and "listen to the band" all
playing at once.

OTher than the guidance above Scott gave, just so it sounds
good. Arrangement has as much to do with that. TOo many
variables. Play with possibilities, and when it's right
lock 'er down there and go for a print of the mix.





Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[PStamler]

What Scott said, but there are a couple of useful principles. One is
symmetry: if you have two guitars, pan them leftward and rightward. If
you have several backing vocals, group them symmetrically around the
center. If you have a violin and a flute (or synth patches that sound
like a violin and flute) place one leftward, the other rightward. Et
cetera.

It's usually a good idea to avoid unbalancing the picture so that
everything leans to one side. Sometimes it happens, though, especially
if you have only a couple of instruments.

These rules are made to be broken, of course, but they're a good place
to start.

Peace,
Paul

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

Paul Stamler writes:
What Scott said, but there are a couple of useful principles. One is
symmetry: if you have two guitars, pan them leftward and rightward.
If you have several backing vocals, group them symmetrically around
the center. If you have a violin and a flute (or synth patches that
sound like a violin and flute) place one leftward, the other
rightward. Et cetera.

Right, which is why I said in an earlier post listen,
experiment.

Part of what might help if you're from the world of the
basement studio is to go observe large ensembles, usually
those that utilize a conductor or director. Observe how
they set up, and notice when you listen to them, especially
if they're not using sound reinforcement what they sound
like, and correlate it to why they set up that way. YOu
never see all the soprano sounds on one side, nor altos, nor tenors. Bass instruments and voices are usually centered,
and in the rear. tHere's a reason it's done that way.

It's usually a good idea to avoid unbalancing the picture so that
everything leans to one side. Sometimes it happens, though,
especially if you have only a couple of instruments.

YEp, which is why some of the early stereo mixes frustrate
me so much, I'd just as soon hear good mono.


Regards,
Richard
.... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[jrdrum28]

A lot of good advice here... But, it really comes down to what works for the project at hand, because every project is different. Don't get lost in all the buzzers and whistles of the modern recording world panning or anything else for that matter. Always have it right at the source and that's half the battle right there. Reference A LOT, on tons of different playback medians. Keep it simple and trust your ears. Everyone will tell you something different, but only YOU know what works for your gear, your mixing skills, and your project....

Mix on...
JR

[Mark]

YEp, which is why some of the early stereo mixes frustrate
me so much, I'd just as soon hear good mono.


I actually prefer the early stereo "hard panned" mixes of the
Beatles and 4 Seasons etc....

I'd like to see that style come back..

The individual sounds really stand out.

Mark

[[email protected]]

On 2010-12-07 said:
YEp, which is why some of the early stereo mixes frustrate
me so much, I'd just as soon hear good mono.
I actually prefer the early stereo "hard panned" mixes of the
Beatles and 4 Seasons etc....
I'd like to see that style come back..
The individual sounds really stand out.
sOmetimes, but sometimes the decisions made didn't quite
dovetail with reality of how one listens to music, i.e. all
the rhythm track on one side, and vocals or the lead
instrument hard panned to the other. At the time I thought
it was cool, but in later life not so much so. Just isn't
the way one hears an ensemble when actually listening in the
same space with it.


But, the individual elements do indeed stand out which is
what I originally liked about them.



Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[Nil]

On 07 Dec 2010, Mark wrote in rec.audio.pro:

I actually prefer the early stereo "hard panned" mixes of the
Beatles and 4 Seasons etc....

I'd like to see that style come back..

The individual sounds really stand out.

I hear it done occasionally, usually as a conscious attempt to sound
retro. It's a special effect.

I'm sure it will never come back as a general popular style. It just
sounds too unnatural.

[cedricl[_2_]]

On Dec 7, 11:09*am, Nil wrote:
On 07 Dec 2010, Mark wrote in rec.audio.pro:

I actually prefer the early stereo *"hard panned" *mixes of the
Beatles and 4 Seasons etc....

I'd like to see that style come back..

The individual sounds really stand out.

I hear it done occasionally, usually as a conscious attempt to sound
retro. It's a special effect.

I'm sure it will never come back as a general popular style. It just
sounds too unnatural.

What is still strange sounding to me are recordings (usually jazz)
that pan instruments that we've come to normally mic with more than
one mic (piano, drums) all the way to one side or the other. My brain
has a hard time wrapping itself around that concept. It just sounds
strange to hear a recording with the drums all the way left and the
piano all the way right. I know thats the way it would be in a small
club if that was the relationship when the set up, but, a studio
recording just seems strange mixed like that.

[Mike Rivers]

On 12/7/2010 5:16 PM, cedricl wrote:

What is still strange sounding to me are recordings (usually jazz)
that pan instruments that we've come to normally mic with more than
one mic (piano, drums) all the way to one side or the other. My brain
has a hard time wrapping itself around that concept.

That's the way the band sets up, or, if it was a studio
recording, the way that the producer thought that they
should set up. The piano isn't in the center, filling up the
width of the room, with the rest of the band sitting inside it.

In real life, unless you're standing inside the piano, you
don't hear the bass strings on one side and the treble
strings on the other. Similarly, you don't hear the toms all
in different places.

--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Nil]

On 07 Dec 2010, cedricl wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

What is still strange sounding to me are recordings (usually jazz)
that pan instruments that we've come to normally mic with more than
one mic (piano, drums) all the way to one side or the other. My brain
has a hard time wrapping itself around that concept. It just sounds
strange to hear a recording with the drums all the way left and the
piano all the way right. I know thats the way it would be in a small
club if that was the relationship when the set up, but, a studio
recording just seems strange mixed like that.

But I haven't heard new recordings like that for decades. I agree it
does sound strange, especially with recordings of acoustic instruments
like small jazz ensembles. It's more acceptable to me ears with pop
music like the early Beatles stuff, because I've already accepted that
it's a studio creation, so the unnatural panning doesn't bother me so
much. But a recording of a jazz combo that sounds like it's live in a
room, except that the band is way over there and the soloist is way
over in the opposite there... well, I have a hard time with it and I
wish my amplifier had a Mono button. In fact, I made myself stereo-
collapsed-to-mono versions of a couple of my jazz albums because I
found the panning too distracting.

[cedricl[_2_]]

On Dec 7, 3:36*pm, Mike Rivers wrote:

That's the way the band sets up, or, if it was a studio
recording, the way that the producer thought that they
should set up. The piano isn't in the center, filling up the
width of the room, with the rest of the band sitting inside it.

In real life, unless you're standing inside the piano, you
don't hear the *bass strings on one side and the treble
strings on the other. Similarly, you don't hear the toms all
in different places.

I hear what you're saying, but, listening to most modern recordings,
which is what you do if you're buying/downloading current music of any
genre, then you'll hear the piano spread across the sound stage, and
the drum solos going from one speaker to the other. Having grown up
with that sound, listening to new recordings sounding like old style
recordings, is strange to my ears. If I'm mixing live sound and the
band isn't the main focus but part of a theatrical setting, I use one
mic on the piano just so I can pan him to where he is, visually.

[Scott Dorsey]

cedricl wrote:
I hear what you're saying, but, listening to most modern recordings,
which is what you do if you're buying/downloading current music of any
genre, then you'll hear the piano spread across the sound stage, and
the drum solos going from one speaker to the other.

God how I hate that. It's like your head is jammed inside the piano.
I don't know why people persist in doing this, even for acoustic music.
It bears no connection to what you hear in an actual performance.

Having grown up
with that sound, listening to new recordings sounding like old style
recordings, is strange to my ears. If I'm mixing live sound and the
band isn't the main focus but part of a theatrical setting, I use one
mic on the piano just so I can pan him to where he is, visually.

Try listening to actual live performances without PA and get a sense of
what it's supposed to sound like live.

Then add PA, if desired.

Just please, keep me away from the Attack Of The Fifty-Foot Piano.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[[email protected]]

On 2010-12-08 (ScottDorsey) said:
I hear what you're saying, but, listening to most modern
recordings, which is what you do if you're buying/downloading
current music of any genre, then you'll hear the piano spread
across the sound stage, and the drum solos going from one speaker
to the other.
God how I hate that. It's like your head is jammed inside the
piano. I don't know why people persist in doing this, even for
acoustic music. It bears no connection to what you hear in an
actual performance.
YEah I know, but I hear it a lot. I've even done it, at a
client's request, but never liked it.
even when I use multiple microphones on a piano I still
don't do the 50 foot wide piano thing. yEs I also got into
the 50 foot wide drum kit phase in my younger days. I can
still tolerate the panning of toms, etc. though, but the 50
foot wide piano still gets me.


Try listening to actual live performances without PA and get a
sense of what it's supposed to sound like live.
Then add PA, if desired.
tHIs is what I suggested to the original poster. THis will
give him some good rules to live by when choosing placement
of elements when they're all recorded by overdubs in the
studio.





Richard webb,

replace anything before at with elspider
ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com

[Mike Rivers]

On 12/8/2010 6:54 PM, cedricl wrote:

I hear what you're saying, but, listening to most modern recordings,
which is what you do if you're buying/downloading current music of any
genre, then you'll hear the piano spread across the sound stage, and
the drum solos going from one speaker to the other.

Well, if you want to make your mixes sound like the modern
recordings that you listen to, then go ahead and do that.
There's nothing wrong with creating the image that you want
to hear.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[hank alrich]

muzician21 wrote:

Delving into the universe of what I sense I don't know about acoustics
and recording technology, I wonder if there are any considerations for
panning tracks besides seat-of-the-pants "what sounds good".

Say you've got horns and/or harmony vocals - possibly any mathematical
relationships that determine an ideal panning position relative to
other tracks? How type & amount of reverb or other FX might fit into
the picture, etc.

Thanks

For a different take on this, you might enjoy perusing this thread about
Terry Manning's use of his Cardinal Points Pan Law. Food for thought.

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/13724/0/

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman

[Richard Webb[_3_]]

Mike Rivers writes:
snip

Well, if you want to make your mixes sound like the modern
recordings that you listen to, then go ahead and do that.
There's nothing wrong with creating the image that you want to
hear.

This is true, but remember that many of us commenting in
this thread are endeavoring to answer the op's query. YEs,
make it sound like you, and the guy paying the bill wish it
to. But, knowing why things are done a certain way can help you bend things a bit intelligently without totally breaking them. This is why I keep coming back to my suggestion to
the op that he have a listen to larger ensembles sans sound
reinforcement, and note how they physically arrange elements for performance.


Regards,
Richard
.... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com
--
| Remove .my.foot for email
| via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.

[Mike Rivers]

On 12/9/2010 12:35 PM, hank alrich wrote:

For a different take on this, you might enjoy perusing this thread about
Terry Manning's use of his Cardinal Points Pan Law. Food for thought.

This is an old and long thread which I got lost in after a
short time. Is it all about choosing left, center or right
for any source's position in the mix and (I assume this is
in there somewhere) balance to taste? Would you care to
summarize the "Cardinal Points Panning" method, if there's
more to it than that?

I have the perfect tool in my rack for that job, an Ampex
MX-10 mixer. With only four channels and only two that can
be switched to the center, it'll save me from having to put
up a lot of mics or record a lot of tracks. And it's got
toobs, too.


--
"Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be
operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although
it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge
of audio." - John Watkinson

http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and
interesting audio stuff

[Bill Graham]

wrote:
On 2010-12-08 (ScottDorsey) said:
I hear what you're saying, but, listening to most modern
recordings, which is what you do if you're buying/downloading
current music of any genre, then you'll hear the piano spread
across the sound stage, and the drum solos going from one speaker
to the other.
God how I hate that. It's like your head is jammed inside the
piano. I don't know why people persist in doing this, even for
acoustic music. It bears no connection to what you hear in an
actual performance.
YEah I know, but I hear it a lot. I've even done it, at a
client's request, but never liked it.
even when I use multiple microphones on a piano I still
don't do the 50 foot wide piano thing. yEs I also got into
the 50 foot wide drum kit phase in my younger days. I can
still tolerate the panning of toms, etc. though, but the 50
foot wide piano still gets me.


Try listening to actual live performances without PA and get a
sense of what it's supposed to sound like live.
Then add PA, if desired.
tHIs is what I suggested to the original poster. THis will
give him some good rules to live by when choosing placement
of elements when they're all recorded by overdubs in the
studio.

We sometimes mike our piano at the senior citizen dance band gigs, but we
run it to its own amp and sit it on the stage right near the piano. It helps
the other musicians hear the piano which they need in order to play along by
ear.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

muzician21 wrote:

Delving into the universe of what I sense I don't know about acoustics
and recording technology, I wonder if there are any considerations for
panning tracks besides seat-of-the-pants "what sounds good".

What sounds good, no - what really sounds good, also on the tenth listen,
extreme choices rarely do.

Say you've got horns and/or harmony vocals - possibly any mathematical
relationships that determine an ideal panning position relative to
other tracks? How type & amount of reverb or other FX might fit into
the picture, etc.

You have a gazillion good answers already. I don't think this has a "right
or wrong" answer, but it may have a "plausible mimic of an actual acoustic
event" answer.

Go to a concert, chamber music will do fine and is likely affordable,
something with a pa will not do. Close you eyes and listen.

What you will hear is a sonic image that has the room at the extremes, not
the sound sources, except when you are a participating sound source in the
applause. In a classical context I tend allow only the main pair a full
left-right pan, ambience- and supporting, for instance choir, pairs usually
get less than a full left-right pan.

Depending on the actual setup - one does not have a lot of say about
placement of sound sources in the context of a live concert - I try to keep
the spot miking symmetric, but usually can't. It tends to be somewhat
possible to move a spot mike around in the mix, but not to put in on the
other side of the rooms center-line, if that means all the soloists go left
of center in the mix, then that is where they go. One can not contradict
what the main pair delivers, only amend to it.

Thanks

If you want a credible image from a pop multitrack mix with totally
artificial ambience, then you still have to apply the above strategy and you
have to get the arrival time of the sounds right, whatever that is in the
actual context.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

cedricl wrote:

What is still strange sounding to me are recordings (usually jazz)
that pan instruments that we've come to normally mic with more than
one mic (piano, drums) all the way to one side or the other. My brain
has a hard time wrapping itself around that concept.

You need to listen to some live music some day.

It just sounds
strange to hear a recording with the drums all the way left and the
piano all the way right. I know thats the way it would be in a small
club if that was the relationship when the set up, but, a studio
recording just seems strange mixed like that.

When I support a concert grand at a classical live recording I use items 1
(one) microphone on it. And I still have a great stereophonic image of it, I
neither need nor want the added sonic mush from putting a pair on it. Also
you need to understand that some of the time a single microphone is likely
to have a much smoother frequency response on the actual sound source than a
pair, especially if you end up panning the pair close together anyway.

As for putting one mic on a jazz-classical avant-garde drumkit, I plead
guilty, still got adequate stereo width because the concert grand pair also
did a good main pair job at that event.

A pan pot is not a tool for creating stereo, it is a tool for determining
where to put the mono.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen