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#1
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Behringer UCA202
Behringer makes a contraption for $30 that provides a USB sound card perfect for
use with a notebook computer, particularly since it has RCA jacks instead of 1/8" stereo jacks. Does anyone know if the noise performance of this unit is any better than the motherboard audio cards built into typical notebooks? For a particular application I'm working on, noise is more important than fidelity (assuming reasonable fidelity.) |
#2
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Behringer UCA202
mcp6453 wrote:
Behringer makes a contraption for $30 that provides a USB sound card perfect for use with a notebook computer, particularly since it has RCA jacks instead of 1/8" stereo jacks. Does anyone know if the noise performance of this unit is any better than the motherboard audio cards built into typical notebooks? For a particular application I'm working on, noise is more important than fidelity (assuming reasonable fidelity.) ask the question you want to ask, is this about recording on the notebook or playback from it? Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#3
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Behringer UCA202
"mcp6453" wrote in message
Behringer makes a contraption for $30 that provides a USB sound card perfect for use with a notebook computer, particularly since it has RCA jacks instead of 1/8" stereo jacks. I own one, and have used it for gigs. It's my 2nd string backup. First string backup is a Microtrack. Primary for this kind of gig is a regular CD-Recorder/mic preamp setup. Does anyone know if the noise performance of this unit is any better than the motherboard audio cards built into typical notebooks? Depends which laptop, and which noise. My laptop lacks proper line level inputs. The only audio input is for a mono electret mic. For a particular application I'm working on, noise is more important than fidelity (assuming reasonable fidelity.) There are a lot of problems with laptops and ground loops. If the noise goes away when you go on battery power, the UCA 202 or something like it probably won't help. More details, please? |
#4
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Behringer UCA202
On 11/27/2010 10:47 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
Behringer makes a contraption for $30 that provides a USB sound card perfect for use with a notebook computer, particularly since it has RCA jacks instead of 1/8" stereo jacks. Is that such a big deal? In a contest to see which is worst, the 1/8" stereo jack would probably get my vote, but RCAs aren't so great either. It's a definite -10 dBV device. There's no input level control so you need to keep the level going into pretty wimply if you're used to using modern mixers or mic preamps. Does anyone know if the noise performance of this unit is any better than the motherboard audio cards built into typical notebooks? What noise performance and what's a typical notebook? I have one and mostly use it with my "bench" laptop for running the RightMark analyzer program when I want to make measurements that my hardware test equipment doesn't make very well. I trust it for that. I've also used it for recording and it works fine. For a particular application I'm working on, noise is more important than fidelity What's your application? Should you even be considering something like this at all? Is this a $1,000 application that you're trying to save $970 on? -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#5
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Behringer UCA202
On 11/28/2010 7:42 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
"mcp6453" wrote in message My laptop lacks proper line level inputs. The only audio input is for a mono electret mic. This particular laptop also lacks proper line level inputs. We're feeding the input with mix-minus from a Behringer mixer. Even with mic boost turned off, it's really easy to overdrive the input. My Griffin iMic works well in this application, but it is in use, and I would prefer RCA ins and outs. For a particular application I'm working on, noise is more important than fidelity (assuming reasonable fidelity.) There are a lot of problems with laptops and ground loops. If the noise goes away when you go on battery power, the UCA 202 or something like it probably won't help. Interesting. I discovered that we did, in fact, have a ground loop with the laptop (I isolated both in and out with transformers - problem solved) even though we did not have a ground loop with a desktop sitting beside it. We did not test it on battery. What I don't understand is how there can be a ground loop on a laptop that uses a wall wart. It seems that the DC to the laptop should be isolated from the mains. I thought the ground loop might be through the Ethernet cable. (We didn't test wirelessly, either.) It sounds like you don't have any particular criticisms for the Behringer UCA202. Isolation doesn't matter as I will continue to use the isolation transformers since mains, Ethernet, and audio don't always play together nicely. |
#6
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Behringer UCA202
"mcp6453" wrote in message
On 11/28/2010 7:42 AM, Arny Krueger wrote: "mcp6453" wrote in message My laptop lacks proper line level inputs. The only audio input is for a mono electret mic. This particular laptop also lacks proper line level inputs. We're feeding the input with mix-minus from a Behringer mixer. Most Behringer mixers have RCA ins and outs, and they are the appropriate connecting point for the UCA 202. This has worked for me. Even with mic boost turned off, it's really easy to overdrive the input. My Griffin iMic works well in this application, but it is in use, and I would prefer RCA ins and outs. IME the Griffin iMic is fine as an output device, but IME my iMic is noisy and has frequency response issues for recording. You don't want to look at the Audio Rightmark for mine in loopback mode. The problem with mine is ia design issue an inherent - they used a very cheap low power IC as a mic preamp, and attenuate line level signals to mic levels. But, what do you expect for $30? Answer: the UCA 202 is the far better choice at that price point. There have been several different versions of the iMic and the one you have may be better than the one I tested a number of years back. For a particular application I'm working on, noise is more important than fidelity (assuming reasonable fidelity.) There are a lot of problems with laptops and ground loops. If the noise goes away when you go on battery power, the UCA 202 or something like it probably won't help. Interesting. I discovered that we did, in fact, have a ground loop with the laptop (I isolated both in and out with transformers - problem solved) even though we did not have a ground loop with a desktop sitting beside it. We did not test it on battery. What I don't understand is how there can be a ground loop on a laptop that uses a wall wart. It seems that the DC to the laptop should be isolated from the mains. I thought the ground loop might be through the Ethernet cable. (We didn't test wirelessly, either.) Ethernet over twisted pair is transformer coupled. That's what that little rectangular black epoxy box on every ethernet card is - a quad isolation transformer. In theory, it can't complete a ground loop. Twisted pair ethernet is supposed to tolerate thousands of volts in common mode. It sounds like you don't have any particular criticisms for the Behringer UCA202. Other than being a consumer-level device, it is pretty close to being CD quality. It's not a the kind of true overkill device I prefer for production, but it can be used to produce what are IMO commercial results. Mostly, you just have to watch those levels, as it has no analog attenuation of its own. Isolation doesn't matter as I will continue to use the isolation transformers since mains, Ethernet, and audio don't always play together nicely. Ethernet over twisted pair should be moot for audio and grounding. What effects the networking has inside the PC is different set of issues. But it is supposed to be grounding-friendly unlike CATV or 3-wire power. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Behringer UCA202
On 11/29/2010 7:24 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
Most Behringer mixers have RCA ins and outs, and they are the appropriate connecting point for the UCA 202. This has worked for me. Mechanical, yes. Electrical, not so yes. I commented in a review of a small Behringer mixer which included a UCA200 (UCA202 without the headphone output) in the box. Output level at clipping at the mixer's RCA Tape Output jacks is +20 dBu. Input level before clipping for the UCA200 (and UCA202 as well - I have one of those too) is +12 dBu. Given the propensity of users to run the mixer's meters pretty close to the top of the scale, it's easy to clip the UCA200 while the mix output is still clean. An 8-10 dB pad at the RCA jacks would solve this problem, but then people would complain that their tracks aren't hot enough. No pleasing everyone. Perhaps this mixer should come with a piece of black tape to put over the CLIP LED so it would look like the top of the meter scale was +10 VU. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Behringer UCA202
On 11/29/2010 7:24 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
"mcp6453" wrote in message On 11/28/2010 7:42 AM, Arny Krueger wrote: "mcp6453" wrote in message My laptop lacks proper line level inputs. The only audio input is for a mono electret mic. This particular laptop also lacks proper line level inputs. We're feeding the input with mix-minus from a Behringer mixer. Most Behringer mixers have RCA ins and outs, and they are the appropriate connecting point for the UCA 202. This has worked for me. Even with mic boost turned off, it's really easy to overdrive the input. My Griffin iMic works well in this application, but it is in use, and I would prefer RCA ins and outs. IME the Griffin iMic is fine as an output device, but IME my iMic is noisy and has frequency response issues for recording. You don't want to look at the Audio Rightmark for mine in loopback mode. The problem with mine is ia design issue an inherent - they used a very cheap low power IC as a mic preamp, and attenuate line level signals to mic levels. But, what do you expect for $30? Answer: the UCA 202 is the far better choice at that price point. There have been several different versions of the iMic and the one you have may be better than the one I tested a number of years back. For a particular application I'm working on, noise is more important than fidelity (assuming reasonable fidelity.) There are a lot of problems with laptops and ground loops. If the noise goes away when you go on battery power, the UCA 202 or something like it probably won't help. Interesting. I discovered that we did, in fact, have a ground loop with the laptop (I isolated both in and out with transformers - problem solved) even though we did not have a ground loop with a desktop sitting beside it. We did not test it on battery. What I don't understand is how there can be a ground loop on a laptop that uses a wall wart. It seems that the DC to the laptop should be isolated from the mains. I thought the ground loop might be through the Ethernet cable. (We didn't test wirelessly, either.) Ethernet over twisted pair is transformer coupled. That's what that little rectangular black epoxy box on every ethernet card is - a quad isolation transformer. In theory, it can't complete a ground loop. Twisted pair ethernet is supposed to tolerate thousands of volts in common mode. It sounds like you don't have any particular criticisms for the Behringer UCA202. Other than being a consumer-level device, it is pretty close to being CD quality. It's not a the kind of true overkill device I prefer for production, but it can be used to produce what are IMO commercial results. Mostly, you just have to watch those levels, as it has no analog attenuation of its own. Isolation doesn't matter as I will continue to use the isolation transformers since mains, Ethernet, and audio don't always play together nicely. Ethernet over twisted pair should be moot for audio and grounding. What effects the networking has inside the PC is different set of issues. But it is supposed to be grounding-friendly unlike CATV or 3-wire power. Okay, I ordered three of them. They seem like handy little devices. Since the UCA202 is as good or better than the iMic, we're good to go. The inputs and outputs will be transformer coupled to the mixer. I noticed that the UCA202 is USB 1.1, which must mean that USB 1.1 is fast enough to get the job done. I have no feel for how much audio you can stuff through a USB 1.1 port. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Behringer UCA202
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
On 11/29/2010 7:24 AM, Arny Krueger wrote: Most Behringer mixers have RCA ins and outs, and they are the appropriate connecting point for the UCA 202. This has worked for me. Mechanical, yes. Electrical, not so yes. I commented in a review of a small Behringer mixer which included a UCA200 (UCA202 without the headphone output) in the box. Output level at clipping at the mixer's RCA Tape Output jacks is +20 dBu. Input level before clipping for the UCA200 (and UCA202 as well - I have one of those too) is +12 dBu. Valuable information. The implication is that the RCA jacks are at the same professional line level as the rest of the mixer. Given the propensity of users to run the mixer's meters pretty close to the top of the scale, it's easy to clip the UCA200 while the mix output is still clean. Silly me - I tend to run mixers with 0 dB = peak levels. That is a consequence of years of experience with digital recording and digital mixers. An 8-10 dB pad at the RCA jacks would solve this problem, but then people would complain that their tracks aren't hot enough. I don't know offhand what the UCA 202 uses for analog levels related to FS. I would expect something around 1 volt RMS. Spec sheet says 2 dBv or about 1.2 volts. Your 8-10 dB pad would be relevant for people who let peaks slip past 0 dB. There should be -10 dB switch(es) on the UCA 202, like many mics have. That would make the box more consumer and pro friendly. Maybe they could call that one the UCA 210. ;-) No pleasing everyone. Perhaps this mixer should come with a piece of black tape to put over the CLIP LED so it would look like the top of the meter scale was +10 VU. Note that audio interfaces for the audio production market generally put FS some place between 2 and 8 volts RMS with 6 being a common. |
#10
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Behringer UCA202
"mcp6453" wrote in message
Okay, I ordered three of them. They seem like handy little devices. Since the UCA202 is as good or better than the iMic, we're good to go. The inputs and outputs will be transformer coupled to the mixer. The matching transformers are Radio Shack "Ground Isolators" http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...ductId=2062214 I posted some tech tests I did on these little gems here a few years back. Execuitive summary is "no fear". What I didn't say then is that I ran my tests using a small Behringer mixer to set up the test environment. I think the audio interface was a M-Audio AP 24192. I noticed that the UCA202 is USB 1.1, which must mean that USB 1.1 is fast enough to get the job done. I have no feel for how much audio you can stuff through a USB 1.1 port. Full duplex 16/44 fits well into USB 1.1. The big plus is that both current and one or two generations back of the Windows and Mac OS come with very servicable drivers already loaded. |
#11
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Behringer UCA202
On 11/29/2010 8:28 AM, mcp6453 wrote:
I noticed that the UCA202 is USB 1.1, which must mean that USB 1.1 is fast enough to get the job done. I have no feel for how much audio you can stuff through a USB 1.1 port. The generally accepted number is six simultaneous 24-bit streams at 48 kHz. A stream is one mono channel or half a stereo channel, going in one direction (either in or out). -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#12
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Behringer UCA202
On 11/30/2010 9:36 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
The UC 200 user manual says that FS = 2.0 volts. That's +6 dBv or about +8.2 dBu. And my measurement says what I said it was. Either way, it's well under the maximum output level of the mixer with which it comes bundled. So, the UC200 is more idealized for the application for which it is sold. I don't know that it's sold at all, at least not in the US. But I haven't looked since I got this one along with the mixer, and that was maybe 3 years ago. They could probably sell the model with switches for $50. Then they'd have to spend $10,000 in documentation and tech support to tell people how to set that switch correctly. A goodly number of products do provide -10 dBv/+4 dBu switching. Some do, usually with the switch implemented in software. But I haven't seen a real input sensitivity adjustment knob since my DAT recorder. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#13
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Behringer UCA202
On 11/28/2010 7:42 AM, Arny Krueger wrote:
There are a lot of problems with laptops and ground loops. If the noise goes away when you go on battery power, the UCA 202 or something like it probably won't help. I got three of these a few days ago. Results of initial tests are that they do exactly what I want. So far, so good. |
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