Hi,

I have a project for which I need to have live music recorded for a
touring band using a different house's soundboard over several weeks.
The interface and recording device has been decided upon and it
accepts both XLR and 1/4" grounded inputs in a single combo jack (it's
the Aardvark Q10).

I've been told to expect to see both XLR and 1/4" outputs from the
various soundboards we will be using. I can only buy one set of
snake/patch cords--one with either XLR or 1/4" grounded connectors.
Depending on which I buy, I will also be buying adaptors for use with
the different soundboards. The run of cable needed is relatively
short, under 10 feet.

Questions:

1) What's best? XLR cable with 1/4" adaptors or the other way around?
Or does it make no difference?

2) Speaking of what's best--should I buy snake or separate patch
cables? I could cable-tie the separates for convienience. Since the
run (under 10ft) is so short, the separates wouldn't take up too much
room.

3) Sound quality is critical and so I don't mind spending extra money
on the cables. Brand recommendations are much appreciated.

Sounds like you will need an isolated splitter box. If you just take
outputs from the house mixer your level will change as the mixer changes
levels. You will want to sent all the mic and line sends to a splitter
that sends you and the house seperate feeds. I would say XLR. How will
you moniter your signals to make sure you are getting a good signal? I
would try to set up somewhere away from all the main pa sound. You might
need more than 10 feet. I would think any well made quality splitter
would do the job well. Todd F.

Todd Fitzgerald
Chief Engineer
OarFin Studios Minneapolis
www.oarfinrecords.com

(t fitzgerald) wrote in message ...
Sounds like you will need an isolated splitter box. If you just take
outputs from the house mixer your level will change as the mixer changes
levels. You will want to sent all the mic and line sends to a splitter
that sends you and the house seperate feeds. I would say XLR. How will
you moniter your signals to make sure you are getting a good signal? I
would try to set up somewhere away from all the main pa sound. You might
need more than 10 feet. I would think any well made quality splitter
would do the job well. Todd F.

Todd Fitzgerald
Chief Engineer
OarFin Studios Minneapolis
www.oarfinrecords.com

I see what you mean about the mix levels changing and the benefits of
a splitter box. Although I've never heard of a splitter box, its
purpose seems pretty obvious.

The touring sound guy will monitor the recordings during the show. His
primary responsibility is the soundboard and I know that this is a
huge disadvantage. But we will set levels during sound check and
hopefully they won't vary much during the show.

The two live ambient mics are going to provide the foundation for the
recordings. We're recording the six other tracks in the event that
something is lacking in those tracks. We definitely want the live
shows to sound "live".

We are recording every show on the tour. I am hoping to come away with
just a handful of well-recorded shows. That's a success rate of about
one-in-seven. If it is apparant that we haven't succeeded in our
mission during the last weeks of the tour, I will have to budget for
the hiring of a dedicated recordist and rent whatever gear he deems
necessary. That will put me in the hole financially, but it pales to
the hole I will be in if I don't come away with good live audio from
the tour.

Will Mercer wrote:

I see what you mean about the mix levels changing and the benefits of
a splitter box. Although I've never heard of a splitter box, its
purpose seems pretty obvious.

The cost of a splitter box might be prohibitive (though it is an
excellent way to do this). Do you know enough about the consoles that
will be used to know if they offer direct outputs on a per-cahnnel
basis, and if those can be set pre-fader? Because if so, that'd be where
I would take the feed into storage.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

Will Mercer wrote:

I see what you mean about the mix levels changing and the benefits of
a splitter box. Although I've never heard of a splitter box, its
purpose seems pretty obvious.

It makes things MUCH easier to split the signals out to a truck or a
location backstage to mix seperately

The touring sound guy will monitor the recordings during the show. His
primary responsibility is the soundboard and I know that this is a
huge disadvantage. But we will set levels during sound check and
hopefully they won't vary much during the show.

Will he be making you a seperate mix on an aux buss, or will you be forced
to use the PA mix?

The two live ambient mics are going to provide the foundation for the
recordings. We're recording the six other tracks in the event that
something is lacking in those tracks. We definitely want the live
shows to sound "live".

If you have six tracks available, I would recommend pulling some signals
from the PA console inserts for them. At least record the vocals, and
maybe lead guitar. How many total channels on the console are being
used?

We are recording every show on the tour. I am hoping to come away with
just a handful of well-recorded shows. That's a success rate of about
one-in-seven. If it is apparant that we haven't succeeded in our
mission during the last weeks of the tour, I will have to budget for
the hiring of a dedicated recordist and rent whatever gear he deems
necessary. That will put me in the hole financially, but it pales to
the hole I will be in if I don't come away with good live audio from
the tour.

If you find yourself in Virginia on the last leg, give me a call.
I've got the full rig, digital or analogue, seperate preamps and
splits for everything.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message . com...
(Will Mercer) wrote in message . com...
snip much-appreciated and thoughtful advice
Do yourself a favor and get two separate pairs of cables. They don't
cost that much, and since you're Santa, maybe you can get the elves to
make them up for you.

I did buy two sets (on your advice, which made a lot of sense).

You probalby won't find two-channel snakes in the configurations you
need, so I'd just use individual cables.

I bought two sets of 8-channel snakes (even though I'm only going to
utilize six of the eight connectors).

3) Sound quality is critical and so I don't mind spending extra money
on the cables. Brand recommendations are much appreciated.

You can spend too much money on cables, but it's unlikely that this
will improve your quality. Reliability is the most important thing
here, and most cables are pretty good as long as you don't make things
worse by stringing adapters in line rather than using the proper
mating connectors.

To accommodate the greatest number of possibilities, I'd suggest that
the 1/4" connectors on your cables be T-S (unbalanced) and wired with
the shield connected to pins 1 and 3 on the XLR end (with the center
conductor connected to pin 2 of course). You'll be making an
unbalanced connection, but at the length and signal level you're
talking about, it almost certainly won't matter. Giving up a balanced
connection is better than having an open wire because you've plugged a
"balanced" cable into an unbalanced output jack. There are at least
four different ways you could make XLR-1/4" cables, but this one will
work nearly all the time.

Man, I wish I could say I followed all of that, but honestly, it went
over my head with the spelling out of the wiring diagram. What I ended
up getting was:

1) an 8-channel snake, XLR-M to XLR-F, and
2) an 8-channel snake, XLR-M to 1/4" TRS.

Hopefully that will cover me for most of the shows. And if not, the
shows are almost all in major cities and I'm sure a quick run to a
local shop can always be managed.

Thanks to all for the advice--I really appreciate it. It's crazy how
much a person can learn because of great folks like you who'll take
the time out of your day to answer a complete novice's questions.

I have a Soundcraft Series 400 (old enough) and the tape send connectors are
XLR male, so the cable that goes in there is female. On my console, what
goes in (mics, instruments, tape returns, etc.) need cables with male XLR
and goes out from the console (aux sends, tape sends, power amps, etc) need
cables with female XLR, I don't know if it's a standard but most newer
consoles uses 1/4 balanced for auxiliaries and tapes.

Hope it helps
Dominique

"Will Mercer" a écrit dans le message news:
...
(Will Mercer) wrote in message
. com...
Hi,

I have a project for which I need to have live music recorded for a
touring band using a different house's soundboard over several weeks.
The interface and recording device has been decided upon and it
accepts both XLR and 1/4" grounded inputs in a single combo jack (it's
the Aardvark Q10).

I've been told to expect to see both XLR and 1/4" outputs from the
various soundboards we will be using. I can only buy one set of
snake/patch cords--one with either XLR or 1/4" grounded connectors.
Depending on which I buy, I will also be buying adaptors for use with
the different soundboards. The run of cable needed is relatively
short, under 10 feet.

Questions:

1) What's best? XLR cable with 1/4" adaptors or the other way around?
Or does it make no difference?

2) Speaking of what's best--should I buy snake or separate patch
cables? I could cable-tie the separates for convienience. Since the
run (under 10ft) is so short, the separates wouldn't take up too much
room.

3) Sound quality is critical and so I don't mind spending extra money
on the cables. Brand recommendations are much appreciated.

Hey guys, thanks for all the help so far on all my questions. But now
I have to ask a potentially very stupid question, but I've never let
that stop me before so...

When recording feeds from soundboards with XLR outputs, do I need XLR
cables with male or female ends? It would seem to make sense to me
that I would need male ends, because that is what the boards with 1/4"
outputs require...But there are so many snakes with female ends that
now I'm worried I won't have the right type of cable.

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1063545428k@trad...
In article writes:

I've been told to expect to see both XLR and 1/4" outputs from the
various soundboards we will be using. I can only buy one set of
snake/patch cords--one with either XLR or 1/4" grounded connectors.

Why? Are you on such a tight budget?

C'mon guys, let's help Santa out here. Donate your old cables to his
cause.

Ha, I appreciate the shout-out, but I'll have to depend on myself on
this one. The advice I'm getting in forums like this one is better
than free cables, that's for sure.

snip great advice

2) Speaking of what's best--should I buy snake or separate patch
cables? I could cable-tie the separates for convienience. Since the
run (under 10ft) is so short, the separates wouldn't take up too much
room.

Two-channel snakes are pretty uncommon. Unless you get something
custom made, you'll be buying individual cables.

I must have not been clear in my original post. I'm going to be
recording a combination of two live ambient mic's (matched pair, xy
stereo setup) and up to six board feeds. What exactly the combination
of board feeds we ("we" most likely meaning a combination of 1) the
soundguy, 2) the one guy in the band who is technically
proficient/interested in such things, and 3) myself nodding like a
chicken at everything that the other two guys say) will use will be an
ever-evolving thing. Those eight tracks will later be mixed down into
two stereo tracks.

Will Mercer wrote:

Those eight tracks will later be mixed down into
two stereo tracks.

And you will time-shift the ambinet tracks to align with the board
tracks, which didn't travel as far through to get to the mics.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

(LeBaron & Alrich) wrote in message ...
Will Mercer wrote:

Those eight tracks will later be mixed down into
two stereo tracks.

And you will time-shift the ambinet tracks to align with the board
tracks, which didn't travel as far through to get to the mics.

Right! I understand that part, for sure. That's what so great about
mixing in a digital environment, it's so easy to line up the
waveforms. I do it all the time when editing dialog-driven film/video.

In article writes:

I must have not been clear in my original post. I'm going to be
recording a combination of two live ambient mic's (matched pair, xy
stereo setup) and up to six board feeds.

Ah, I see. So you need 6 cables between your computer interface and
whatever you might find on the board. There are no 6-channel snakes
that I know of, but 8-channel cable is pretty common.

Here's my suggestion, though it isn't something that you can buy off
the shelf, it's something you'll have to build or have someone build
for you. It goes along with my thought that the most likely to work
most of the time is UNbalanced connections on the computer end, which
will necessarily unbalance the console end. For short runs and all but
some really silly console output stage designs this will work fine.

Use 8-channel two-conductor (balanced) shielded cable for your snake.

On the computer end, put 1/4" TS plugs. You can do this on all 8
cables, or just for a little variation, put TRS plugs on two of the
cable pairs. Just to have something to talk about, I'll call the "hot"
wire white and the "cold" wire black. Connect the TS plugs with the
white wire to the plug tip and the black wire and shield to the
sleeve. If you make a couple of balanced pairs, connect the white wire
to the tip, the black wire to the ring, and the shield to the sleeve.

On the opposite end, put 1/4" TRS plugs. Wire them with the white wire
to the tip, the black wire to the ring, and the shield to the sleeve.
This will assure that the you'll get signal from either a balanced or
an unbalanced 1/4" jack to your computer interface.

Get a half a dozen adapters (hard wired, not transformer) between XLR
and 1/4" TRS. That way, if you have XLR outputs on the console, you
can adapt them to your 1/4" plugs. An XLR adapter with a 1/4" plug on
it will be far less stressful to the console connector than a 1/4"
plug with an XLR adapter on it.

It might also be a good idea to get a couple of 1:1 in-line
transformers in an XLR body so that if you run into a console that
doesn't want to work with one side of a balanced output grounded, you
can lift it. Also, get a couple of RCA-1/4" cables to run alongside
your snake in the event that you have to use RCA outputs from the
console.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

In article ,
(Will Mercer) writes:

When recording feeds from soundboards with XLR outputs, do I need XLR
cables with male or female ends? It would seem to make sense to me
that I would need male ends, because that is what the boards with 1/4"
outputs require...But there are so many snakes with female ends that
now I'm worried I won't have the right type of cable.

Just buy some gender-changers (male-to-male or female-to-female). Neutrik and
Switchcraft both make them. You can even save a buck or two by wiring them
yourself. Most commonly inputs on boards are female, outputs are male.

Steve Lampen
Belden Electronics Division

In article ,
(Mike Rivers) writes:

You probalby won't find two-channel snakes in the configurations you
need, so I'd just use individual cables.

Belden makes a number of two-channel snakes. Each have two twisted pairs,
individually shielded, with a color coded jacket and an overall jacket. Do you
want low noise, fire-rated, ultra-flexible, rugged, or ultra-performance? We
have 2-pair cables in each category. Here they a

7884A Starquad snake. If you want to get rid of 60Hz noise (and in many
venues, this is a real problem) this will do it. Flexible French Braid shield.

1509C CM-rated moderately flexible install cable. The cheapest (oops! I mean
"cost-effective") alternative on this list.

1902A Ultra-flexible. If you're going to wind and unwind cables every night,
this would be a lot easier. French braid shield.

1814R Riser-rated (very high fire rating), 22AWG. If I were going for rugged,
this would be my choice.

7891A Digital audio, 13pF/ft. makes this the best performer for analog too. 26
AWG means not very rugged.

Hope this helps!

Steve Lampen
Belden Electronics Division

In article writes:

(Mike Rivers) writes:
You probalby won't find two-channel snakes in the configurations you
need, so I'd just use individual cables.

Belden makes a number of two-channel snakes.

Belden makes two-channel cable. When people think of "snake" however,
they usually think of a cable assembly with connectors on both ends.
Have you started making those too, or are you leaving that to
companies like Whirlwind?



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )