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  #41   Report Post  
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Geoff@work
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced
a 500mA 250v fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the


Aren't you the sick ******* that was collecting all sorts of kiddie
porn, and falsely accused others of sending it to you?



Pretty clear than from this little slip that rladchap is really a troll.

After all, nobody could really be quite that thick.

geoff


  #42   Report Post  
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Arny Krueger
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

wrote in message
ps.com
wrote:

Then both you AND Bernard Andre are fools.


Oh right, right. Why don't we add to that the names of
countless other audio engineers and enthusiasts who are
all aware of the audibility of fuses. I'm still waiting
for that list of "world class amps" that you designed,
that qualifies you to put yourself above Yves Bernard
André.


Yves Bernard André?

Yves Bernard André!

Oh, I get it, YBA brand name equipment.

YBA has been around for at least a decade.

http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/831/

YBA rose to ignominity when they came out with a CD player that *improved*
the sound of CDs by illuminating a certain colored LED in its disc
compartment.

http://www.audaud.com/audaud/JAN02/E...uip3JAN02.html

"In addition to the triple beam red laser there is a blue laser which floods
the underside of the CD in blue light which actually adds optical noise. As
Yves himself says " the optical noise created by the blue laser (known as
"stochastic resonance".......a great name for a heavy metal band in my
humble opinion!) actually permits the recovery of some information whose
energy was not sufficient to drive a 0 to a 1 or the other way around".

Let's not get too hung up on the fact that "stochastic resonance" is an
oxymoron if there ever was one.

The problem with the YBA optical players is that there are objective
standards for correct recovery of the audio data on a CD. Needless to say,
ideal recovery of audio data from CDs is possible without "stochastic
resonance", and indeed there is no discernable benefit from this "stochastic
resonance".


  #43   Report Post  
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Arny Krueger
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

"Geoff@work" wrote in
message
wrote in message
oups.com...

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I
replaced a 500mA 250v fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and
found the


Aren't you the sick ******* that was collecting all
sorts of kiddie porn, and falsely accused others of
sending it to you?



Pretty clear than from this little slip that rladchap is
really a troll.
After all, nobody could really be quite that thick.


Not only that, but he's obviously a sockpuppet that is being manipulated by
someone that we are already being subjected to - a friend of Middius as it
were.


  #44   Report Post  
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GregS
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

In article .com, wrote:

GregS wrote:
In article .com,

wrote:


Anyway, not sure what you mean by "changing a fuse should do a bunch
more than replacing a cord". Bunch more soundwise? Replacing one fuse
for the same fuse, or for that of a different rating? As mentioned in
my message, I didn't try replacing one fuse for another of the same
type, but for that of a different type. I did try reversing the amps
original fuse, and found that made an audible difference as well.


Many change the replacable line cord which does very little
in the big picture.


Yes, I know about that. I've changed line cords on tape decks,
turntables, etc.... always found significant differences. Didn't always
like the difference, since so many characteristics change. Not easy to
experiment with, unless you play around with IEC replaceable cords.


I do like soldered line cords. A line cord normally
has less resistance than a fuse, except slow blowing fuses under
1 amp will show definate resistance increases. The equipment should
be built to go around these issues and perform OK.

If you think you hear a difference, then a difference could possibly exist.


The difference is tremendous (to me), and I have no doubt it exists,
but then, I really didn't come here to prove that to anybody or debate
this issue (especially with those who have preconceived notions about
what can and can't be perceived in audio...)... only to find out what
the "real risk" was of substituting the fuse for something else that
would maintain the current, as the fuse did, but sound better. I don't
claim to have an engineering background, which is why I came asking
questions.

What I was comparing was the silver solder that I used in place of the
fuse (I dont nkow the percentage, but Im sure its very low, I nkow it
contains lead and its from RadioShack), vs. the wire filament in the
glass fuse tube. I'm thinking that if the wire filament is designed to
cut off the current during an overload or short by breaking from the
heat generated, would not the solder have the same effect of melting
during an overload and thereby cutting off the current and preventing
the amp from melting down or "catching fire"? The electronic solder
used does not seem to have a particularly high melting point, but I
don't know if it is much lower than that of a fuse filament. However, I
understand you to say most solders have high resistance, and that
resistance is what helps the filament in a fuse melt itself. Would this
not make it easy for the Radio Shack silver (probly mostly lead!)
solder to melt under overload conditions and prevent further damage?


You don't know what the fusing current will be, but it will be very erratic
using a piece of solder. It is likely to be in the 10's of amps to fuse
your solder. Fusing equipment is a little bit of engineering and a little bit
of practical testing. The exact value can vary. One thing for
sure, if any damage occurs, the insurance Co. could refrain from paying
you.

There is also the ladder effect. I once was sitting down and pushed a button, and a breaker
2 miles away tripped shutting down a complete satelite tracking station.
Its quite an experiance. I pushed a button triggering a 75 HP electric motor,
which shorted, tried to trip but fused the first breaker. This went to the next
really big big breaker. Can you imagine the silence and darkness having pushed
the button. It was really bright and very noisey with racks and racks of equipment
and air handlers until pushing that button. So if you have a fusing problem, it can escalate
problems at times.

greg




What I'm still unsure about is:

- What is the exact risk involved of changing the rating of a fuse (in
my case, 1.6a 125v for a 500mA 250v)?


Some fire potential. A fuse does not guarantee anything except current

overflow.


So you're saying even the RIGHT fuse installed does not guarantee the
amp wont catch on fire? Intersting, because all the crazy little boys
here have been screaming at me that my amp will send me and family to a
burning hell the minute I replace the fuse with anything but the rated
type. Some are even prearing hot dogs to roast at my family's
"personal barbecue", from what I've read.


You probably mean silver solder vs silver bearing solder. It does not
melt at too low of a temperature, but lower than copper. A fuse is made
to have resistance and cause heat melting itself. The lower the rating, the
more the resistance. Silver bearing solder could have at least 1 % silver
content. Most of the non-lead solders have a higher melting temperature,
but most solders have high resistance.


- How can I check to be sure my metal case is properly grounded?


It might have a 3 wire AC connector. Thats normally the only way to ground,

but
there are other ways. Most consumer audio equipment does not have a grounded
case. Grounding it may cause ground loop noise.


I guess my metal preamp isnt grounded then. Theres some kind of
grounding going on inside of it, but the plug is a two prong ungrounded
type.




In non grounded equipment, a voltmeter connected to a resistor and parallel

capacitor is normally
attached from the equipment to earth ground. There is a limit on passing

current,
normally less than 100 uA.


  #45   Report Post  
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mick
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse? - reply to rladbury

(I really can't believe I'm replying to this... ;-) It's in the
interests of safety.)


rladbury asked:

What I'm still unsure about is:

- What is the exact risk involved of changing the rating of a fuse (in my
case, 1.6a 125v for a 500mA 250v)?


Probably no "risk" as in danger to you, providing you pull the plug first!
A fuse has a voltage rating because that is the maximum voltage that it is
guaranteed to break, without flashing over inside. So you can't put a 125V
fuse in a 250v system, but you can put a 250v fuse in a 125v system. If
you use too low a voltage rating and the right sort of fault occurs then
the fuse will blow, but won't actually break the current because it can
pass through the now silvered layer on the inside - its like not having a
fuse.

The current rating is the maximum that the fuse can carry continuously
without "blowing". So, if you put a 500mA fuse (i.e. 0.5A) fuse in instead
of a 1.6A one it could very well blow immediately as the equipment could
be taking up to 1.6A. Putting a 1.6A fuse in where it should be 500mA is
giving you 1/3 of the protection that you should have. You are increasing
the risk of permanent damage to the transformer primary in the event of a
fault on the secondary (such as a blown rectifier going short-circuit).
Note that the difference in resistance of a 500mA fuse and a 1.6A fuse is
negligable as the rating depends on the composition of the wire as well as
its cross-sectional area. The contact resistance is way higher.


- What is the exact risk involved in using solder wire instead of the
original fuse and its filament wire? (Seems to me the solder would burn at
an even lower temperature,


You may as well stick a nail in - effectively you don't have a fuse. The
solder has a low enough resistance to not heat up enough to melt in most
cases. There is a very real danger of fire in the event of a fault if you
do this. If you try to use solder as a fuse it tends to explode in small
firey globules of hot metal in the event of a fault. Not what you want...


- Would a transformer damaged by the absence of the original fuse be
audibly apparent before leaking currents and creating a risk of shock?


Do you mean that the original fuse blew? If so it would probably blow a
new fuse immediately. After all, that's why the original fuse blew isn't
it? It *could* make the chassis live if there is an earth problem though,
so the transformer should be properly tested before re-use.


- How can I check to be sure my metal case is properly grounded?


Are you using a 3pin mains plug? If so, a resistance test between the
case and the earth pin is as close as you are going to get. It should be
close to 0 ohms.


It is *not safe* to do things like shorting out fuses or wrapping them in
silver paper. There is no danger until a fault occurs, but then there is a
very real danger of fire and even getting someone killed.

Remember that the fuse has the job of breaking the current. It takes a
finite time for the fuse element to heat up and blow. During that time the
current into the fault is climbing higher and higher, up to a limit set by
the resistance of the fault. It is quite possible to draw tens of amps
through a 1A fuse for a small fraction of a second. Without the fuse that
current goes through the load. Normally house wiring will have a bigger
fuse further back, but that is designed to let enough current through to
blow the fuse in the appliance. Consequently, if you short out a 500mA
fast-blow fuse and you get a fault in the transformer primary (or in the
wiring to it) it could put over a hundred amps through, say, a 13A fuse,
down the lead and into the fault. You had better hope that the bigger fuse
blows or the lead could set fire to your carpet or the transformer could
explode (ok, its a worst case scenario, but these things *can* happen).
Even worse, if the amp has a bad earth the fault could "silently" break it
completely and make the case, and everything connected to it, live. That
can easily kill someone but you won't know about it until you touch
something and by then it could be too late.

Just think of one thing to finish off though, suppose the resistance of
the fuse and its connections is 0.5 ohm (*way* too high, even for a bad
contact). The transformer primary impedance could be about 70 ohms for a
200VA transformer so it swamps the fuse's resistance even in that extreme
case. If the maximum primary current is about 1.6A at 120V the fuse will
drop 0.8 of a volt *at full power* - probably less drop than you'll get
from putting the kettle on. You won't hear the difference at all if the
fuse contacts are clean as the series resistance will simply be too low.
If you think you can hear a difference the clean the contacts or clean
your ears! Ignore anyone who tells you that there is a difference - there
isn't.

Don't ignore safety warnings - don't put people's lives at risk for an
imaginary increase in sound quality which can be proved false both by
measurement and by double-blind listening tests.

--
Mick
(no M$ software on here... :-) )
Web: http://www.nascom.info




  #46   Report Post  
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Walt
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

Arny Krueger wrote:

Yves Bernard André?

Yves Bernard André!

Oh, I get it, YBA brand name equipment.

YBA has been around for at least a decade.

http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/831/

YBA rose to ignominity when they came out with a CD player that *improved*
the sound of CDs by illuminating a certain colored LED in its disc
compartment.

http://www.audaud.com/audaud/JAN02/E...uip3JAN02.html


Wow. This is some really funny stuff. From the review:

It is a little known secret that inverting your source component
and bringing back absolute phase by reversing your speaker cables
gives gains in sound quality........I have experimented with this
and sometimes depending on the source recording there is a dramatic
difference...

I guess if you think reversing the polarity twice makes a difference,
you'll believe anything.

//Walt
  #50   Report Post  
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


Per Stromgren wrote:
On 24 Jan 2006 11:55:29 -0800, wrote:


What I'm still unsure about is:

- What is the exact risk involved of changing the rating of a fuse (in
my case, 1.6a 125v for a 500mA 250v)?

- What is the exact risk involved in using solder wire instead of the
original fuse and its filament wire? (Seems to me the solder would burn
at an even lower temperature,

- Would a transformer damaged by the absence of the original fuse be
audibly apparent before leaking currents and creating a risk of shock?


It seems that you do not know why fuses are used and how they work.
Both my early teen kids know. You must either be a troll, less than
13, or very ignorant.


Considering the fact that you can't explain how or why silver solder
would not do as a replacement fuse, or anything else to support
whatever the hell you're supposed to be asserting, maybe you need to
have your kids explain how fuses work to YOU. You're the one who is
either a troll or very ignorant. I don't need your condescending web
links, gaychub. I didn't claim to be an expert on fuses. Why do you
suppose I came here asking questions on the subject, you stupid
****wad? Nor did I come here to be condescended to be having idiots
simply repeat what they read on circuit board stickers, while they
understand NOTHING of the subject.

There are warnings on tags on mattreses too. You mindless trolls are
probably afraid to remove those too, without understanding why exactly
they are there. Me, I have no tags on my mattresses, as Im not a
mindless fool like you and your ****wad friends who appear to know
squat about audio.







If you really, really, are serious (which most of doubt, it seems) you
can read about it he
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...tt/elect16.htm

Per.




  #52   Report Post  
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Dave Platt
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

In article .com,
wrote:

Listen good sockpuppet Walt: If ever you get struck by a flash of
intelligence and show that you have even the slightest clue as to what
the discussion is here, then once you attempt to explain why a filament
in fuse is any safer than the silver solder that I am using, and your
explanation is supported by someone in the world other than you, then
-maybe- I will decide to replace the fuse... that will be up to ME to
decide, not you or anyone else. But if all you can do is sputter ****
on a subject you know nothing about, then please SHUT UP ALREADY, as
your opinion is not proven to be of any value whatsoever. Put a fork in
yourself, you're DONE.


OK, here's a scenario for you.

Let's say (without loss of generality) that your equipment has a
1-ampere 250-volt fuse in it. This fuse will allow 1 amp of AC
current to flow, pretty much indefinitely, without blowing. If it's
in an equipment which has no motor and not a big power supply, it'll
probably be a "fast-blow" fuse which will pop quickly (within a few
hundred milliseconds) if the current drawn through it exceeds the
limit by a factor of 3 or more.

Let's say you replace this with a length of silver solder. This
solder is far thicker than a fuse filament, and will probably pass
15-20 amperes without melting and opening.

Now, let's say that a fault develops in the AC primary wiring of the
amp. Maybe a wire pops loose, maybe there's a hidden defect in the
power transformer (bad insulation), maybe somebody upstairs lets a tub
overflow and water starts dripping through the floor and runs down
into the amp, etc. Somehow, some portion of the AC-connected
circuitry develops an unwanted path to something grounded.

Let's say that it's not a complete "dead short" circuit. There's
still appreciable resistance between the AC "hot" and
neutral/ground... maybe a ten ohms or so.

This path is enough to allow 10 amperes of current to flow.

If your original fuse is still in the amp, the fuse will blow almost
instantly. Even if it's a "slow blow" fuse, an overload of this
magnitude will cause it to "pop" within a couple of seconds. Because
it's a 250-volt fuse, it's guaranteed not to arc-over inside the fuse
at this voltage. The AC circuit opens. Nothing bad happens.

If your silver-solder "fuse" is in the circuit, any of a number of Bad
Things can happen:

- If the silver-solder doesn't melt (and I suspect it won't), the
circuit fault will be drawing a full 10 amperes of current. That's
over 1200 watts of power, which will turn into heat *somewhere* -
probably inside the amp itself, where the ohms of fault-resistance
are. Your amp has now turned into a self-contained room-size space
heater, with all the heat in the wrong place.

It would not be surprising for your amp to catch fire after a few
minutes. Even if it doesn't, it'll probably heat up enough to be
ruined.

- If the silver solder _does_ melt, there will probably be a big and
messy "BZAP" and arc when it melts through, which will throw molten
solder around inside the amp chassis. At best, this will probably
leave solder-shorts in numerous places in the circuitry, resulting
in an amp which is not repairable at a reasonable cost. At worst,
the molten/vaporized metal might be sufficient to sustain the arc,
and you've got a 1200-watt "arc welder" burning inside your amp for
some amount of time.

Again, the risk of fire is nontrivial.

- If the short occurs to the chassis, and the fuse doesn't blow, then
quite a lot of current could be flowing on the chassis and the
ground wire in the power cord and in the house's ground wiring (and
could also flow through the grounded outer braid of your A/V coax
cables, into other A/V equipment, etc.). The high current can
create enough of a voltage differential between the chassis and
"true" ground to create a significant shock hazard, for anyone who
touches the chassis.

What it boils down to, really, is the idea that fuses are there for a
damned good reason. Fuses are *designed* to be able to interrupt high
voltage safely and reliably. There are national and professional
standards for them, and their use is legally required in AC-powered
equipment in most countries.

Replacing a fuse with a piece of solder is the equivalent of the old
"put a penny in the fusebox" trick that people joke about... but it's
a joke which has resulted in *real* fires and death in the past.

*REGARDLESS* of whether replacing a fuse in your amp with a piece of
silver solder (or jumper wire) makes it sound better to you (for
either objective or subjective reasons), doing so is risky. I really
doubt that *any* licensed electrical engineer or contractor would tell
you that it's a good idea, or would sanction you doing it.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
  #53   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
mc
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

wrote in message
ups.com...

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).


If any of these had any effect on the sound, your amplifier has some kind of
power supply defect and should be repaired.



  #54   Report Post  
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Walt
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

Dave Platt wrote:
wrote:

Crap from rladbury snipped

Elision of thoughtful fuse primer from Dave

That was a pretty good explanation, but you do realize you're being
trolled, don't you? The game is not about fuses, audio, or electricity,
but an attempt to rile people up.

Dave Platt
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page:
http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior


Interesting. I just listened to the two records I have by JW the other
night. Hadn't listened to them in a decade or so. It's aged better
than I thought it would have, and I might just have to get some of their
stuff on CD.

//Walt
  #55   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Colin B.
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

wrote:

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?


That fuse is designed to fail with a very specific current for a certain
(relatively short) time, for a given line voltage. The paperclip or silver
solder are designed to...well, they're not designed. Who knows what the
current required to melt it will be? It might fail at power-on, it may not
fail until the thing becomes an arc-welder. More to the point, it may not
fail if there's a critical fault elsewhere--maybe something falls across the
output terminals and causes a dead short, lying outside the amp, possibly
on a carpet or something flammable.

Also, what are the components plugged in to? Circuit boards burn, with a
bit of convincing. An insanely hot chassis in a wooden cabinet is also a
great accident waiting to happen.

There are your primary failure modes that could cause problems.

Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?


Probably not inherently, but if the system becomes unglued, you've just
sealed up your safety valve. You're asking for quantification of how likely
that valve is to be used, which is impossible. How about, "likely enough
that it's not worth risking for wholly-imagined benefits."

A fuse on the power input only has two potential modes of interference with
the sound: (a) Limit the power so that it can't produce enough juice at the
end, or (b) Generate some power-line distortion that's so bad the power
supply can't deal with it. If the first mode were true, then the fuse would
melt--that's its job! The second mode is unfeasible, because an inch-long
piece of wire simply isn't complex enough or different enough to generate
some magical distortion which a paperclip or silver-solder joint is less
susceptible to. It's simply not possible, and anyone who claims otherwise is
either deluded or trying to sell you snake oil.

Colin


  #56   Report Post  
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mc
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

A fuse on the power input only has two potential modes of interference
with
the sound: (a) Limit the power so that it can't produce enough juice at
the
end, or (b) Generate some power-line distortion that's so bad the power
supply can't deal with it. If the first mode were true, then the fuse
would
melt--that's its job! The second mode is unfeasible, because an inch-long
piece of wire simply isn't complex enough or different enough to generate
some magical distortion which a paperclip or silver-solder joint is less
susceptible to. It's simply not possible, and anyone who claims otherwise
is
either deluded or trying to sell you snake oil.


It's conceivable that he had a poor connection to his original fuse, which
improved step by step as he substituted other things. If so, the thing to
do is clean the contacts and reinstall the original fuse (or rather an
electrically equivalent replacement, since if the original fuse was getting
old, it may have increased in resistance).


  #58   Report Post  
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JANA
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

Put back the recommended fuse. There is a chance that the fuse that was
originally in the amp, was the wrong type. Read the label, or the
instructions to find out the proper type and fuse size.

Operating ANY device without the proper electrical protection is dangerous,
in the event of a short or overload. The amp can be a fire hazard, or safety
hazard if it is not properly protected.

--

JANA
_____


wrote in message
ups.com...

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so much about the gear blowing up,
since its old gear anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I
leave the amp running all night or am not at home. In the case of the
preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the integrated, its a wood
casing. What are the chances of fire and how would it start? What are
the chances of it blowing up and how might that occur? (so far, no
problems!). Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?


  #59   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


GregS wrote:
In article .com, wrote:

GregS wrote:
In article .com,

wrote:


You don't know what the fusing current will be, but it will be very erratic
using a piece of solder. It is likely to be in the 10's of amps to fuse
your solder. Fusing equipment is a little bit of engineering and a little bit
of practical testing. The exact value can vary. One thing for
sure, if any damage occurs, the insurance Co. could refrain from paying
you.

There is also the ladder effect. I once was sitting down and pushed a button, and a breaker
2 miles away tripped shutting down a complete satelite tracking station.
Its quite an experiance. I pushed a button triggering a 75 HP electric motor,
which shorted, tried to trip but fused the first breaker. This went to the next
really big big breaker. Can you imagine the silence and darkness having pushed
the button. It was really bright and very noisey with racks and racks of equipment
and air handlers until pushing that button. So if you have a fusing problem, it can escalate
problems at times.

greg



Just a hearty thanks for offering a reply again with sanity, respect
and reason, instead of the usual blind ridicule and derision typical of
those faced with concepts they dont understand and know nothing about.
Although I do enjoy playing with the rabid audio techie zealots and
their quaint little notions of believing they are masters in music
reproduction to where they can't recognize the ignorance in themselves,
it is your informative words that i actually came here looking for.
You've provided me with enough information for me to make an informed
decision about whether to keep this valuable tweak or (as it looks like
I'll have to do....), chuck it.

  #60   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


mc wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).


If any of these had any effect on the sound, your amplifier has some kind of
power supply defect and should be repaired.


Sorry, the only defect is in your knowledge of audio. Ive forgotten
more than you know about audio, chum, and that fuseless amp tweak I
came up with works with ANYTHING; amp, preamp, cd player, etc. But I
will contend that its not the safeest thing to go about using solder or
other substitutes for a carefully rated amp fuse.



  #61   Report Post  
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Tomi Holger Engdahl
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

writes:

Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).


I doubt that you could hear the difference of changing the fuse,
especially if you are changing the main amplifier use.

I think what you heard is caused memery by the psychological effect
that you though you were improving the device by changing the
fuse.

The original fuse is pretty low resistance already, a 500 mA
fuse having typically resistance of less than 0.5 ohms and maximum
voltage drop of 230 mV.. Those are pretty little when comparing
to mains voltage coming in and also to the other resistances on
the system (mains wiring in wall, inside equipment, mains
transformer primary resistance etc..).

I quess that in real life systems if changing that fuse had
any noticeable effect on the audio amplifier, that amplifier
was not well designed, and turnign other loads on your house
on/off would have more effect on the amplifier performance
than changing the fuse.

Source for fuse information:
http://www.cooperet.com/library/products/GMA_Specs.pdf

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse? I don't care so much about the gear blowing up,
since its old gear anyway. But nor do I want a fire started when I
leave the amp running all night or am not at home.


Running the equipment without fuse has a very considerable fire risk!
If somethign fails inside your equipment (can fail more often when
equipment gets old), then in case of short circuit on the electronics
the equipment mains fuse normally blows before smoke starts coming
out..

If you take out the fuse, then in case of short circuit your
equipment starts easily taking lots of mains power...
When transformer output is short circuited it can easily take
10 times more than it's rated power from mains.
This power gets dissipated inside your equipment at some place
(usually most in transformer, some power on wiring and component
where short circuit happened)... Things will prety quicly get
quite hot... bad smell amd smoke coming out..
If you are lucky the transformer primary might burn cut
or your main fuse on your distribution panel blows... in less
fortunate case the flames start coming out together with the
smoke from your equipment.

It is dangerous to run equipment without fuse or wrong size fuse.
It can easily burn down your house. And if your insurance company
finds out that you intentianally replaces your fuses with
something else, they most definately will not pay any money to you.
So if this gambling you made on operating equipment without proper
fuses blows, you will need to start thinking what is to live
without your house and things inside it and no compensation for
them. And possibley killing/injuring/harming somebody else living on the
house or nearby, and getting sued because of the illegal electrical
modifications you made to your equipment that caused that fire!

Th equipment are originally designed to be operated with the
proper fuses installed in them. When used in this way they should
be reasonably safe (very unlikely to burn down your house).
If you take the fuse protection, then one very necessary layer
of security is taken away.

In the case of the
preamp, the casing is solid metal, with the integrated, its a wood
casing. What are the chances of fire and how would it start?


If you operate them withotu fuse and a serious short circuit
happens inside those equipment, then I think yo have soemthing
like 20-50% change of getting fire on that case!
That's just quessing. The percentages can vary greatly
depending on their construction and their mains amplifiers.

What are the chances of it blowing up and how might that occur?
(so far, no problems!).


Hard to say. But there are real changes.
As you know from other electrical equipment, they will not
last forever.. usually fail within 5-20 years more or less...

Is electrical shock a risk with a fuseless amp?


Not considerable grater than with properly fused amplifier I think.

The fire risk is your main risk you need to worry about.

--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/
  #62   Report Post  
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Tomi Holger Engdahl
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

writes:

Walt wrote:
wrote:

Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL.


No, I wouldn't describe it as that. Without going into minute details,
the overall resolution is much higher.

Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp
or a preamp sans fuse?


You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the
damn fuse back in.


Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power supply to
burn up or catch on fire (I would not have thought this component to be
flammable!)?


Let's think your amplifier has a transformer that is designed togive out
100W output power at 90% effeciency. So when amplifier takes 100W,
then tranformer has 10W loss and this is what gets it somewhat warm
(transformer takes somwehat less power loss when it not fully loaded).
If the transformer secondary gots shorted (insulation on transformer
secondary wires fails and thei copper ouches each other, amplifier
brige rectifier fails short, transformer main storage capacitor fails
short or amplifier main output transformer fail fully short...).
In this case the transformer secondary is practically short circuited,
and transformer tries to push as much power as it can to the output...
taking this power from the input. Typically you can expect this
input power become something like 10 times the nominal power power
of the transformer (or somewhat more or less depending on transformer
design, but 10 times is a quite good approximation for average transformer).
No actual power is transported out of tranformer (output is shorted
so lots of current flows but no voltage, thus no power, in actual life
there is some voltage so some little power gets here as well).
So that 100W transformer is now taking in 1000W of and outputting
practically nothing, thus there is 1000W power heatring tht transformer
that was designed to handle 10W heating power loss in it...
You can think how quicly and how hot the transformer and wiring
inside it quicly becomes where is one kilowatt of power heating that
quite small transformer!!

As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had
previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to
improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem.


You stupid! Heatsinks on the output transistors are there
for a very good reasons. The output transistors have considerable
power loss and get hot. If you remove the heatsinks, then the
transistors gets mugh hotter much sooner. When transistor gets
hot it's parameters change, causing first poor operation of
amplifier (worse sound easily), then starting to smell bad
(your figerprints on the cases start buring...), and then transistors
fail short... not always in this order.

Your amplifier if you are lucky might work some time without
the heatsinks if you play at very low volume... if you use
higher volumes or play longer time, it is very propable that sooner
or later your output transistors fail! The hotter they run the
sooner they fail!

So sooner or later I expect that your output transistors will
fail short... this will cause quite propably a chain-reaction
that would in normal case burn your amplifier fuse...
When you have removed the fuse, then in this case I expect you
get the smome coming out sooner or later from your autput
transistors, amplifier power transformer and/or your speakers.
And possibly flames soon after that..

--
Tomi Engdahl (
http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/
  #63   Report Post  
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mc
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

I suppose the bottom line is that if you eliminate the fuse in a piece of
equipment that was obviously designed to require one, and it starts a fire,
your fire insurance doesn't cover it.


  #64   Report Post  
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Arny Krueger
 
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Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?

"Walt" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

Yves Bernard André?

Yves Bernard André!

Oh, I get it, YBA brand name equipment.

YBA has been around for at least a decade.

http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/831/

YBA rose to ignominity when they came out with a CD
player that *improved* the sound of CDs by illuminating
a certain colored LED in its disc compartment.

http://www.audaud.com/audaud/JAN02/E...uip3JAN02.html


Wow. This is some really funny stuff. From the review:

It is a little known secret that inverting your source
component and bringing back absolute phase by reversing
your speaker cables gives gains in sound
quality........I have experimented with this and
sometimes depending on the source recording there is a
dramatic difference...
I guess if you think reversing the polarity twice makes a
difference, you'll believe anything.


You too can become like the OP. ;-)

Just takes a lobotomy...


  #65   Report Post  
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mc a écrit :

A fuse on the power input only has two potential modes of interference
with
the sound: (a) Limit the power so that it can't produce enough juice at
the
end, or (b) Generate some power-line distortion that's so bad the power
supply can't deal with it. If the first mode were true, then the fuse
would
melt--that's its job! The second mode is unfeasible, because an inch-long
piece of wire simply isn't complex enough or different enough to generate
some magical distortion which a paperclip or silver-solder joint is less
susceptible to. It's simply not possible, and anyone who claims otherwise
is
either deluded or trying to sell you snake oil.


It's conceivable that he had a poor connection to his original fuse, which
improved step by step as he substituted other things. If so, the thing to
do is clean the contacts and reinstall the original fuse (or rather an
electrically equivalent replacement, since if the original fuse was getting
old, it may have increased in resistance).


No. No. No. No. No. No. NO!!!!

"Poor connection" has NOTHING to do with this phenomenon. Stop
speculating on things you know nothing about. I never cease to be
amazed at how wanna-be engineers and techies always either:

a) DENY any changes exist in audio outside the realm of what they
already know (and you all know VERY little, from my vantage point)

b) OFFER what they consider more "rational theories" to explain what
they are too IGNORANT to explain, or believe.

Jesus, can't ONE of you idiots figure out a way to pop open an
amplifier and TRY the damn tweak out for yourselves, instead of killing
yourselves to argue against it??!! You've all spent so much time
telling me how full of **** I am about this, yet it takes less time to
actually solder a jumper bridge and LISTEN FOR YOURSELVES!! God forbid,
any of you zealots actually learns something new about the "magical
world of audio". Seems to me like you lazy mindless geeks don't even
want to learn anything new about audio. It must scare the hell out of
you.

I know you're "trying" to fight your own ignorance here MC, but you're
not trying hard enough. I already explained in another message in this
thread that I did the same tweak to other equipment, and the results
were the SAME. That rules out your stupid attempts to rationalize what
you don't understand. I just listened again to my preamp, before
unsoldering the jumper and permanently replacing the original fuse back
in its holder. There was NO mistaking the downgrade in sound quality.
Its very insulting when one is lectured to about a given subject by
those with NO familiarity with the subject, who believe themselves to
be experts nonetheless. Try having a 7 year old explain the meaning of
life to you, and see if you can keep a straight face. That's what you
look like to me!



  #66   Report Post  
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Dave Platt wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

OK, here's a scenario for you.

Let's say (without loss of generality) that your equipment has a
1-ampere 250-volt fuse in it. This fuse will allow 1 amp of AC
current to flow, pretty much indefinitely, without blowing. If it's
in an equipment which has no motor and not a big power supply, it'll
probably be a "fast-blow" fuse which will pop quickly (within a few
hundred milliseconds) if the current drawn through it exceeds the
limit by a factor of 3 or more.

Let's say you replace this with a length of silver solder. This
solder is far thicker than a fuse filament, and will probably pass
15-20 amperes without melting and opening.

Now, let's say that a fault develops in the AC primary wiring of the
amp. Maybe a wire pops loose, maybe there's a hidden defect in the
power transformer (bad insulation), maybe somebody upstairs lets a tub
overflow and water starts dripping through the floor and runs down
into the amp, etc. Somehow, some portion of the AC-connected
circuitry develops an unwanted path to something grounded.

Let's say that it's not a complete "dead short" circuit. There's
still appreciable resistance between the AC "hot" and
neutral/ground... maybe a ten ohms or so.

This path is enough to allow 10 amperes of current to flow.

If your original fuse is still in the amp, the fuse will blow almost
instantly. Even if it's a "slow blow" fuse, an overload of this
magnitude will cause it to "pop" within a couple of seconds. Because
it's a 250-volt fuse, it's guaranteed not to arc-over inside the fuse
at this voltage. The AC circuit opens. Nothing bad happens.

If your silver-solder "fuse" is in the circuit, any of a number of Bad
Things can happen:

- If the silver-solder doesn't melt (and I suspect it won't), the
circuit fault will be drawing a full 10 amperes of current. That's
over 1200 watts of power, which will turn into heat *somewhere* -
probably inside the amp itself, where the ohms of fault-resistance
are. Your amp has now turned into a self-contained room-size space
heater, with all the heat in the wrong place.

It would not be surprising for your amp to catch fire after a few
minutes. Even if it doesn't, it'll probably heat up enough to be
ruined.

- If the silver solder _does_ melt, there will probably be a big and
messy "BZAP" and arc when it melts through, which will throw molten
solder around inside the amp chassis. At best, this will probably
leave solder-shorts in numerous places in the circuitry, resulting
in an amp which is not repairable at a reasonable cost. At worst,
the molten/vaporized metal might be sufficient to sustain the arc,
and you've got a 1200-watt "arc welder" burning inside your amp for
some amount of time.

Again, the risk of fire is nontrivial.

- If the short occurs to the chassis, and the fuse doesn't blow, then
quite a lot of current could be flowing on the chassis and the
ground wire in the power cord and in the house's ground wiring (and
could also flow through the grounded outer braid of your A/V coax
cables, into other A/V equipment, etc.). The high current can
create enough of a voltage differential between the chassis and
"true" ground to create a significant shock hazard, for anyone who
touches the chassis.

What it boils down to, really, is the idea that fuses are there for a
damned good reason. Fuses are *designed* to be able to interrupt high
voltage safely and reliably. There are national and professional
standards for them, and their use is legally required in AC-powered
equipment in most countries.

Replacing a fuse with a piece of solder is the equivalent of the old
"put a penny in the fusebox" trick that people joke about... but it's
a joke which has resulted in *real* fires and death in the past.

*REGARDLESS* of whether replacing a fuse in your amp with a piece of
silver solder (or jumper wire) makes it sound better to you (for
either objective or subjective reasons), doing so is risky. I really
doubt that *any* licensed electrical engineer or contractor would tell
you that it's a good idea, or would sanction you doing it.


But my local engineer or contractor HELPED me solder the jumper wire
across the fuse holder contacts? (Just kidding!). Thanks for taking the
time to explain in detail the many ways I might fry using solder for a
fuse bridge. Although honestly, I think your doomsday scenarios are a
little far fetched and unlikely to occur (ie.: were talking about
equipment thats over 25 years old; if there was a defect in production,
I think 25 years is enough to flush it out!), there's enough here for
me to have reconsidered the idea of operating the equipment without the
fuse. And thanks for showing the intelligence of saying the audibility
of the fuse may exist for objective reasons. That's more than I can say
for most respondents here, all of which have never conducted the same
experiments that I have.




--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!


  #67   Report Post  
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Walt wrote:
Dave Platt wrote:
wrote:

Crap from rladbury snipped

Elision of thoughtful fuse primer from Dave

That was a pretty good explanation,


I agree, and at least Dave was ABLE to explain the problem, which
doesn't say much about you, except that you have a big mouth and talk
for nothing.

but you do realize you're being
trolled, don't you? The game is not about fuses, audio, or electricity,
but an attempt to rile people up.


So let me see if I understand your point: I never posted on this group
before. I come asking a question about an operation on my amplifier, so
I can make a more informed decision for myself, thinking this would be
a good place to ask a technical question concerning an audio amplifer,
since the group IS named "rec.audio.TECH".. I barely mention in passing
the reason why I wish to perform said operation, which by no fault of
my own, turns out to be an audible phenomenon outside the religious
audio beliefs of you and your RAT comrades. The reason I wish to
perform this operation offends the lot of you imbeciles so much, that
you and your zealots then proceed to jump all over me and my post for
even thinking of doing what I was thinking of doing, for the reasons I
was thinking of doing it. All the while completely ignoring the
original technical query I had. Then I ask you to either respond to the
technical query or shut the hell up and stop contributing to my thread.
Okay... now we've finally reached your brilliant conclusion, Walt: I
must be a "troll" here to rile you up.

You must be one of those pathetic losers that call women "bitches"
because they don't want to have anything to do with you. It sounds to
me like YOU'RE the troll here playing games, given the above facts.
Including the fact that you no doubt spend your life on newsgroups like
this. No matter. Given the level of stupidity you've shown, I doubt
your life would be more productive otherwise. When you can actually
come up with something other than vigorous assertions to explain why
you have a difference of opinion about a given audio phenomen,
sockpuppet Walt, then you might have something to add to a newsgroup.
Until then, you're better off shutting the **** up, like I told you the
last time. You only make yourself look stupider by the minute.

  #69   Report Post  
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mc wrote:
I suppose the bottom line is that if you eliminate the fuse in a piece of
equipment that was obviously designed to require one, and it starts a fire,
your fire insurance doesn't cover it.


No problems there, then. I don't have fire insurance.

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Tomi Holger Engdahl
25 jan 07:35 afficher les options

writes:
Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v
fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I
decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver
paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced
the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further
(though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip
overall...).



I doubt that you could hear the difference of changing the fuse,
especially if you are changing the main amplifier use.


Yeah right. You and all the other queenies on this group, who've gone
to great lengths to attack me for this, because it defies your stupid
old religious beliefs. There are enough of you shouting "You are not
hearing differences, you are hearing placebos...", that you sound like
a chorus of drooling imbeciles to me. But I didn't ask for your opinion
or anyone else's on the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible
or not, did I? Unlike you and your cabal of religious audio zealots, I
have a mind of my own and a pair of ears that go with it. I can decide
for myself. Since you HAVEN'T heard the effects of this yourself, do
yourself a favor and shut your ****ing trap about things you know
nothing about, next time you offer your opinion on something to
someone. If you did ever want to learn something new and not just
repeat what you're told, it would have taken you less time to conduct
the same experiment I did and find out for yourself, than it did to
formulate your response here.


I think what you heard is caused memery by the psychological effect
that you though you were improving the device by changing the
fuse.


aka "placebo". Yeah, I get it, Einstein. You're a dumbass ****wit who
thinks the world begins and ends with the very limited amount of
information you've learned about electronics. You don't know just how
ignorant you are and how little you know about audio. Im sure you know
more about electronics, but Ive forgotten more about music reproduction
than you now know. But since you think you're smarter than the top
engineer at YBA, why don't you name the world class amp YOU designed,
so I can have a listen and compare it? Just to make it easy on you,
I'll compare it to YBAs ****tiest amplifier. If you haven't designed
anything better, then there's another reason for you to shut the ****
up about things you know nothing about.

I quess that in real life systems if changing that fuse had
any noticeable effect on the audio amplifier, that amplifier
was not well designed, and turnign other loads on your house
on/off would have more effect on the amplifier performance
than changing the fuse.


Wrong guess. I already mentioned elsewhere that I did the same fuse
substitution thing to my other amp, my cd player, etc., it all had the
same effect of improving the sound. Like I also said elsewhere in this
thread, you wanna-be engineers always rationalize things you don't
understand, because they don't follow what you think is true according
to your religious beliefs in audio (and which often, isn't). STOP
guessing and do the damn experiment for yourself, or shut up already.
"Guessing" is what people did when they tried to explain why the sky
was leaking, you blithering idiot. "Science" is what led the more
developed man to experiment, find out where the truth lies, and stop
the ****ing guessing. Why is why I will always be way ahead of the
(audio) game than you and your RAT zealots here.

It is dangerous to run equipment without fuse or wrong size fuse.
It can easily burn down your house. And if your insurance company
finds out that you intentianally replaces your fuses with
something else, they most definately will not pay any money to you.
So if this gambling you made on operating equipment without proper
fuses blows, you will need to start thinking what is to live
without your house and things inside it and no compensation for
them. And possibley killing/injuring/harming somebody else living on the
house or nearby, and getting sued because of the illegal electrical
modifications you made to your equipment that caused that fire!


But I think the important thing here is, "Jesus will forgive me". Hey,
if He can forgive a child pornographer like Arny Krueger, I'm sure he
can forgive me for wanting to improve the sound of my audio system. I'm
not worried about the insurance company paying out, since I don't have
an insurance policy. I.m not worried about getting sued, since the
lawyers would cost more than anything they could ever hope to get out
of me. I'm not worried about killing my neighbors, since I hate my
neighbors (they have a baby kid thats CONSTANTLY crying all the time -
just shutting him up for good might be worth the damage to my
property). And as for that property in question, well I'm currently
developing a "volunatry simplicity" approach, and I'm not attached to
material things any more. So maybe having my things destroyed is
exactly what I need to free myself. Spiritually speaking. And as my
dear old dad always said, "if you never gamble, you never win".

Hard to say. But there are real changes.
As you know from other electrical equipment, they will not
last forever.. usually fail within 5-20 years more or less...


Maybe todays cheap **** gear, but both these SS amps are over 25 years
old, and they don't look to be close to failing.


As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far
and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had
previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to
improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem.



You stupid!


Now that's very rude of you to call me names like that. Especially when
YOU'RE the ignorant **** who pretends to be an expert on issues that
you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about. As we shall
see below....

Heatsinks on the output transistors are there
for a very good reasons. The output transistors have considerable
power loss and get hot. If you remove the heatsinks, then the
transistors gets mugh hotter much sooner. When transistor gets
hot it's parameters change, causing first poor operation of
amplifier (worse sound easily), then starting to smell bad
(your figerprints on the cases start buring...), and then transistors
fail short... not always in this order.


I'm sorry that reality has a way of proving the theoretical world in
which you live to be WRONG you ignoramus, but you can stop blabbing
now, because nothing you've said here has turned out to be true. This
is what I try to drum into the heads of you dumbass wanna-be techies:
when you have NO real-world experience of what you're talking about,
and you just repeat by rote whatever the hell you've read in Popular
Electronics, that does not make you an expert on ANYTHING. I can tell
you without flinching that a month ago, I took out the heatsinks in
both the aforementioned preamp and amplifier (the amp had a
particularly massive heatsink, and an equally massive output transistor
array). Why? Because I thought it'd improve the sound. And it most
certainly DID. In BOTH components. So that already shoots down your
theoretical BS about "worse sound easily". I also removed a wire that
was screwed into the large output transistor array (soldered at the
other end to the underside of the circuit board). I don't know what
that was for (some sort of grounding I would presume), but I do know
that removing it from the surface of the output transistor further
improved the sound.

Next, about the heat: there WAS none. I carefully monitored the heat
output in both the amp and preamp after I took the heatsink out. There
was very little, if any, warmth coming through the grill in the casing
above the heatsink. Thats pretty much normal for this amp, it never got
hot. I played music through the amp all night to test it out, it was
fine the next day. I even touched the output transistors with my bare
fingers after leaving both components on for hours. Guess what, dumbo?
They were no hotter than warm. No "bad smell" (well, no worse than with
this stuff already smelled like!). So much for all your stupid bull****
about how they'll get "much hotter much sooner" and I will fry my amp.
The only thing you wrote that was correct here, is that the parameters
change when transistors get hotter (but NOT in the ways you predicted).
I already knew that from experiences with my Class A amp. That's why I
took out the heatsinks in the first place, genius.

Well, Tomi, I hope you've learned something here about what you don't
know about audio. And if not, then you're even stupider than I give you
credit for.


Your amplifier if you are lucky might work some time without
the heatsinks if you play at very low volume... if you use
higher volumes or play longer time, it is very propable that sooner
or later your output transistors fail! The hotter they run the
sooner they fail!


Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah... see above for why you are a presuptious
fool, and don't know what you're talking about. Ive worked this amp for
over a month without heatsink at loud volumes, day and night, never had
a problem. Im so confident it has no detrimental effect on the amp, Ive
already thrown out the heatsink. My concnlusion is that sometimes these
things are added in order to prevent failures when used in a variety of
ways, but just because theyre desinged in, does not mean they're always
needed. And ive PROVEN they can do more harm than good. Lets see one of
you crackerheads actually prove ANYTHING that youve been saying.


So sooner or later I expect that your output transistors will
fail short... this will cause quite propably a chain-reaction
that would in normal case burn your amplifier fuse...


Wrong again, chumly. If they haven't burnt out after playing loud music
for a months time, then they're simply not going to (not for reasons of
overheating, since they dont get that hot!). Surely you must tire of
being wrong all the time... The only chain reaction I see is that when
one of you posts some ignorant BS to me, it incites another to do the
same.



When you have removed the fuse, then in this case I expect you
get the smome coming out sooner or later from your autput
transistors, amplifier power transformer and/or your speakers.
And possibly flames soon after that..


The only flames I see is from the RATs on this newsgroup because I
dared say something in their presence that contradicts all of your
inane religious beliefs....




--
Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/)
Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at
http://www.epanorama.net/

  #73   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Geoff@work
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


wrote in message

fuse bridge. Although honestly, I think your doomsday scenarios are a
little far fetched and unlikely to occur (ie.: were talking about
equipment thats over 25 years old; if there was a defect in production,
I think 25 years is enough to flush it out!),


Um, equipment faults are not usually 'defects in production'. They are also
anomolies that can develop of time as components age, mis-use scenarios
stress components over time, a sudden mis-use scenario occurs, or some
external agent causes the equipment's integrity to be compromised.

If these things weren't possible we wouldn't need fuses or CBs in power
switchboards either..... hey, now THATs an idea - let's bridge those out
too - should sound SO much better !

Again, none of this is rocket science,a nd is well understood by most kids
by the time they leave school....

geoff


  #75   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
Geoff@work
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


wrote in message
oups.com...

Yeah right. You and all the other queenies on this group, who've gone
to great lengths to attack me for this, because it defies your stupid
old religious beliefs.


You are the one with relgious beliefs. We are objective.

geoff




  #76   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


Per Stromgren wrote:
On 25 Jan 2006 10:49:47 -0800, wrote:

Jesus, can't ONE of you idiots


If we are such idiots, why do you ask *us* questions?


You're obviously too stupid to understand the subtleties of ANYTHING,
aren't you? You've taken my comments about your stupidity OUT OF
CONTEXT (look up what this means, idiot). My words dont work that way.
In doing so, you are trying to twist my meaning, in order to appear to
win an argument you're engaging in with me. I came here to ask a
-technical- question only. I got met immediately with hostility and
insults. Yet I did NOT ask what people thought about the audibility of
this or that, because I know better than to try to engage in a
meaningful debate with low level wanna-be engineers and techie zealots.
Its like trying to convince a Jehovas Witness that God doesn't actually
exist. The bottom line of the problem is, that you RATs think that you
are "smart", if not brilliant, because have read technical information
on audio, and that anyone that hasn't, must succumb to whatever you
believe... because only you "understand how it all works". You then
(predicatably) proceed to ridicule and deride anyone that says ANYTHING
not conforming to your understanding of "how it all works" in audio.
The more they hold on to their opinions, the more you try to ridicule
them -- instead of keeping an open mind and trying to understand the
phenomenon (that is new to you) any further, for your own educational
purposes.

So I call you "stupid" not because I think I know everything about
audio and you don't. I call you "stupid" because YOU think you know
everything about audio, and that I don't. (RATs here in this thread
have stupidly said I dont even understand the basic function of what a
fuse is, and what its doing in a piece of audio equipement...). And I
also call you people "stupid", because every single one of you that
mocked me for even thinking fuses have an audible effect, provided not
a SINGLE shred of evidence to back up your groundless assertion. Yet,
this is EXACTLY what you people would demand of others in a debate. You
simply dismissed the very notion of me being correct on this, with
nothing but your stupid vigorous denials. Not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU has
actually tested my fuse tweak. And yet you have no end of stupid
opinions about it.

THIS, my friend, is what makes you people STUPID. The dogmatic
adherence to a preconceived set of beliefs, the fight and refusal to
let go of any of them, even if it might take 2 minutes of your time to
determine their validity. Of course, you take stupid to new levels, by
then arguing that even if one of you idiots could figure out how to
perform the tweak experiment (ie. which device opens the amp cover and
where the fuse holder lies...), you wouldn't do it anyway, because you
would just be putting yourself under the spell of the infamous "placebo
effect".... Now THAT is why I call you stupid. Because it isn't idiots
like you that advance the state of audio, since you fools have already
fooled yourself into believing that the only audible effects in audio
is what is already known by the majority.

Which brings me to another reason I call you people stupid: having the
sheer idiocy to mock and criticize Yves Bernard André, a successful
audiophile engineer on the forefront of the business, when none of you
idiots have ever designed an audiophile amplfiier that comes close to
sounding like his worst effort in your entire lives. All you wanna-be
engineer idiots can do is reveal yourselves to be jealous of an audio
engineer who is infintely more succesful and smarter than you people
are. And who KNOWS, as I do, that fuses have an audible quality
(although I did not do my tweak based on his knowledge, since I only
learned about the custom fuses in his amps after I did my experiment).

If there isn't enough here for me to explain how and why you and your
zealot buddies are imbeciles, please let me know, and I'll elaborate
further. Ive really only touched the surface of the extent of what
fools you people are.


It seems from my point of view that you are the one having a rather
limited amount of IQ.


Of course it does. No surprise there. But consider this: if you ARE the
idiot I say you are, how the **** would you know? Remember, you're too
much of a fool to realize what an idiot you are, and that I might know
something about audio that you're too stupid to know or find out for
yourself. Here's a clue for you: So far, I'm the ONLY ONE HERE that has
anything close to "proof" that validates what I'm saying. You have
provided NONE. Ergo, you're just another idiot on the net, flapping
your gums.

The ones you call "idiots" haven proven over and
over again to be rather clever... We haven't seen such proof about
you, I'm afraid.


Are you playing games again? Where the **** in this thread has any of
you idiots "proven over and over again" that your vigorous denials
about the audibility of fuses have been proven true? I'm sorry I must
have missed the details of the trials. Show me the posts that I missed
that contained the so-called "proof", idiot. Because all I've seen in
60 messages is a confederacy of religious audio dunces all arguing
about how full of **** I am, without bothering to offer a shred of
anything to argue against it.

My vote goes for troll. He doesn't even have the guts to tell us his
name.


It doesn't surprise me that you're too stupid to read a message header
either. Hint: its not at the bottom..... My vote goes for mindless
imbecile, and that's all you've proven yourself to be.


Per.


  #77   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


Geoff@work wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Yeah right. You and all the other queenies on this group, who've gone
to great lengths to attack me for this, because it defies your stupid
old religious beliefs.


You are the one with relgious beliefs. We are objective.

geoff


You wouldnt know the meaning of the term "objective" if it slapped you
in the face, you stupid ****. All you idiots have managed to do in this
thread is reveal what fools that you really are. You've argued
violently against an experiment I made, but not provided ANY objective
evidence to support your foolish and false assertions. I went to the
trouble to ask several of you clowns to do your own OBJECTIVE
experiment since you were too stupid to provide any evidence against
mine. Not ONE of you ever took up the offer. Furthermore, you people
reveal the sort of twisted insane logic that fuels all of your belief
systems. In numerous examples in this thread, people have made positive
conclusions from a negative. In one example, a conclusion was made that
I'm a "troll" (whatever that is), because you can not find evidence to
suggest that I am not. Other examples of this logic abound. I wouldn't
trust you religious zealots to run objective trials on whether
rainwater falls from the sky. You would probably conclude that because
you dont SEE the exact location of where its coming from, it might be
flowing up toward the sky from the ground.

That concludes that the geeks on this newsgroup all form a cabal of
religious zealotry on the topic of audio, that no outside idea can
penetrate. Trust me, its nothing new.
You are the same sort of people that previously concluded in past times
that "compact disc sound is perfect sound forever", that speaker or
interconnect cables all sound the same, and that basically, everything
sounds the same unless its broken or otherwise defective. God I would
hate to be the unlucky person to be invited to listen to the stereo
systems of any of the idiots Ive seen on this newsgroup. Given the
idiocy of your belief systems in audio, it must be the ****tiest
experience anyone can have listening to music. You probably think
anyone that doesnt buy the cheapest garbage system from Walmart is a
sucker, because everything sounds the same.... ROTFLMAO!!

  #78   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


wrote:
Per Stromgren wrote:
On 25 Jan 2006 10:49:47 -0800,
wrote:

Jesus, can't ONE of you idiots


If we are such idiots, why do you ask *us* questions?


You're obviously too stupid to understand the subtleties of ANYTHING,
aren't you? You've taken my comments about your stupidity OUT OF
CONTEXT (look up what this means, idiot). My words dont work that way.
In doing so, you are trying to twist my meaning, in order to appear to
win an argument you're engaging in with me. I came here to ask a
-technical- question only. I got met immediately with hostility and
insults. Yet I did NOT ask what people thought about the audibility of
this or that, because I know better than to try to engage in a
meaningful debate with low level wanna-be engineers and techie zealots.
Its like trying to convince a Jehovas Witness that God doesn't actually
exist. The bottom line of the problem is, that you RATs think that you
are "smart", if not brilliant, because have read technical information
on audio, and that anyone that hasn't, must succumb to whatever you
believe... because only you "understand how it all works". You then
(predicatably) proceed to ridicule and deride anyone that says ANYTHING
not conforming to your understanding of "how it all works" in audio.
The more they hold on to their opinions, the more you try to ridicule
them -- instead of keeping an open mind and trying to understand the
phenomenon (that is new to you) any further, for your own educational
purposes.

So I call you "stupid" not because I think I know everything about
audio and you don't. I call you "stupid" because YOU think you know
everything about audio, and that I don't. (RATs here in this thread
have stupidly said I dont even understand the basic function of what a
fuse is, and what its doing in a piece of audio equipement...). And I
also call you people "stupid", because every single one of you that
mocked me for even thinking fuses have an audible effect, provided not
a SINGLE shred of evidence to back up your groundless assertion. Yet,
this is EXACTLY what you people would demand of others in a debate. You
simply dismissed the very notion of me being correct on this, with
nothing but your stupid vigorous denials. Not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU has
actually tested my fuse tweak. And yet you have no end of stupid
opinions about it.

THIS, my friend, is what makes you people STUPID. The dogmatic
adherence to a preconceived set of beliefs, the fight and refusal to
let go of any of them, even if it might take 2 minutes of your time to
determine their validity. Of course, you take stupid to new levels, by
then arguing that even if one of you idiots could figure out how to
perform the tweak experiment (ie. which device opens the amp cover and
where the fuse holder lies...), you wouldn't do it anyway, because you
would just be putting yourself under the spell of the infamous "placebo
effect".... Now THAT is why I call you stupid. Because it isn't idiots
like you that advance the state of audio, since you fools have already
fooled yourself into believing that the only audible effects in audio
is what is already known by the majority.

Which brings me to another reason I call you people stupid: having the
sheer idiocy to mock and criticize Yves Bernard André, a successful
audiophile engineer on the forefront of the business, when none of you
idiots have ever designed an audiophile amplfiier that comes close to
sounding like his worst effort in your entire lives. All you wanna-be
engineer idiots can do is reveal yourselves to be jealous of an audio
engineer who is infintely more succesful and smarter than you people
are. And who KNOWS, as I do, that fuses have an audible quality
(although I did not do my tweak based on his knowledge, since I only
learned about the custom fuses in his amps after I did my experiment).

If there isn't enough here for me to explain how and why you and your
zealot buddies are imbeciles, please let me know, and I'll elaborate
further. Ive really only touched the surface of the extent of what
fools you people are.


It seems from my point of view that you are the one having a rather
limited amount of IQ.


Of course it does. No surprise there. But consider this: if you ARE the
idiot I say you are, how the **** would you know? Remember, you're too
much of a fool to realize what an idiot you are, and that I might know
something about audio that you're too stupid to know or find out for
yourself. Here's a clue for you: So far, I'm the ONLY ONE HERE that has
anything close to "proof" that validates what I'm saying. You have
provided NONE. Ergo, you're just another idiot on the net, flapping
your gums.

The ones you call "idiots" haven proven over and
over again to be rather clever... We haven't seen such proof about
you, I'm afraid.


Are you playing games again? Where the **** in this thread has any of
you idiots "proven over and over again" that your vigorous denials
about the audibility of fuses have been proven true? I'm sorry I must
have missed the details of the trials. Show me the posts that I missed
that contained the so-called "proof", idiot. Because all I've seen in
60 messages is a confederacy of religious audio dunces all arguing
about how full of **** I am, without bothering to offer a shred of
anything to argue against it.

My vote goes for troll. He doesn't even have the guts to tell us his
name.


It doesn't surprise me that you're too stupid to read a message header
either. Hint: its not at the bottom..... My vote goes for mindless
imbecile, and that's all you've proven yourself to be.


Per.


I bow to your superior knowledge.
I salute your ability to rant incoherently.
You have shown us all to be imbeciles.
{ insert .gif file of swine levitating horizontally }

  #80   Report Post  
Posted to rec.audio.tech
 
Posts: n/a
Default How safe operating an amp with no fuse?


wrote:
wrote:
mc wrote:
I suppose the bottom line is that if you eliminate the fuse in a piece of
equipment that was obviously designed to require one, and it starts a fire,
your fire insurance doesn't cover it.


No problems there, then. I don't have fire insurance.


What is the actual model and make of the equipment you've modified?


Why, are you an insurance claims adjuster? I dont believe it matters,
but I dont mind saying: the amp is a Technics SA-80, the preamp in
question is a Hitachi HCA-8300. And no, this is NOT what I use in my
stereo system!

Other than your ears,have you done any measurements to substantiate
the "sounds better" claim of your jumpered safety device?


FIrst of all, Im gonna point out that didn't make any official "suonds
better claim". I came here asking a technical question, and mentioned
the audibility of the fuse in passing in the course of explaining my
query. But yes, if you want it to be official, I will make the "claim"
that "no fuses sound better than fuses". Now since YOU and your
religious cohorts are the ones that picked apart my query and attacked
me because of what I mentioned in passing, since YOU are the ones that
have a problem with this, then what the hell measurements have YOU done
to substantiate YOUR claims that fuses can not possibly have an audible
effect? Hell, I haven't even seen one of you mindless imbeciles
actually test this out, let alone take measurements on a test bench!!!

It's sounds like your modding a late 70's early 80's unit.


Brilliant deduction. Especially given that I said in this thread the
gear is about 25 years old or more.

Good luck finding replacement parts when it does start to glow.


Well I havent destroyed it in a blazing inferno, even after a months
time of operating it without a heatsink. You might be disappointed to
learn that I also didnt destroy it after placing the amp in a deep
freezer the last two days (in another valiant effort to improve the
sound...). Id say shes a tough old bird, the Technics. But if it does
go, Im quite sure I could replace the amp easier than you could replace
that blob of **** you call a "brain", chumly.

Feel free to throw some derogatory remarks my way too :-)


Okay, dickweed. Since everyone else here has felt free to throw
derogatory remarks MY way when I asked an innocent technical question
about amplifiers with no undue disrespect toward anyone, I have no
problems with this. ****face.

By the way if you don't own the dwelling and it's multi-unit,
you'll be paying for the damages when it does start the fire,
hopefully only destroying property and not lives.


Interesting that you say "WHEN it does start the fire", like as if you
KNOW it will, in all your RAT smugness. But thats what idiots do, isn't
it? Assume thing to be true, when they may not be. I dont mind
"destroying lives", since I have a smoke detector and it would just be
the lives of my annoying neighbors (with their equally annoying crying
babies), who probably don't have one. But I admit I would feel a loss
if I destroyed my old Tecnichs amp. But not anything that I couldnt
replace with 20 bucks. And dont you think 20 bucks is worth paying in
the name of scientific advances in audio? Of course you dont, you
conservative nitwit. Thats why people like me will always be advancing
the great state of our hobby, and people like you will always...

....well, youll always be able to sit back and live your life on a
newsgroup, pretending you know everything when you dont, and deriding
those who fall within your radar and make "claims" as you call them,
that conflict with your religious beliefs. Oh but I forogt... you dont
believe you have any, do you?

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