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  #1   Report Post  
Jason Wong
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!

-- Jason
  #2   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



Jason Wong said:

I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!


This audiophile says Denons have better base and Yamahas have better
surround processors.

But if you wait until you can up your budget by, ahem, 100%, you can
get the best of both worlds with inexpensive separates. Plus a few
more cables, of course.


  #3   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



Jason Wong said:

I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!


This audiophile says Denons have better bass and Yamahas have better
surround processors.

But if you wait until you can up your budget by, ahem, 100%, you can
get the best of both worlds with inexpensive separates. Plus a few
more cables, of course.


  #4   Report Post  
crazysaybi
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

I'm not an audiophile, per se, but from what I've read, heard and
experienced, George is spot on about Denons producing a better bass sound
and Yamaha being the better sound processor. At that price range, you
should go for the Yamaha because it sounds like you'd probably have
lower-end speakers that won't handle bass too well anyhow, so might as well
go for the better overall sound.

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Jason Wong said:

I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!


This audiophile says Denons have better base and Yamahas have better
surround processors.

But if you wait until you can up your budget by, ahem, 100%, you can
get the best of both worlds with inexpensive separates. Plus a few
more cables, of course.




  #5   Report Post  
Jason Wong
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?

2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output

3) Does the Denon remote not have TV Input button? No VCR record
button? Do the number keys have no use in VCR mode (i.e. selecting
channels).



  #6   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.
  #7   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

This audiophile says Denons have better base...

Better base? You mean the cabinet is sturdier?
  #8   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



William Sommerwerck said:

Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.


That's quite stupid. Buy the one you prefer.


  #9   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


This audiophile says Denons have better base...


Better base? You mean the cabinet is sturdier?


Regrettably, that's the extent of Middius' understanding of audio.


  #10   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

But we're supposed to the tell the guy what his preference _should_ be.


George M. Middius wrote...

William Sommerwerck said:


Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.


That's quite stupid. Buy the one you prefer.



  #11   Report Post  
Ken Catchpole
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...
Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.


I have a Yamaha 5550, and love it to bits. It's my first system, and I was
working to a budget (no sub) but it's great for the money.

Having quickly looked at the Denon specs (and obviously exhibting bias
here), if it bothers you, neither amp has true 6.1 outputs, but while the
Denon doesn't appear to have any 6.1 capability, the 5550 can handle 6.1
inputs by converting them to 5.1 and using a 'virtual' 6th speaker (which
basically means output from the two rear surrounds). It's not ideal, but it
does work surprisingly well.

2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output


My DVD player only had coaxial output, and after being initially concerned,
I found this isn't something to worry about at all. Yes it has coaxial
input, but not for the default DVD channel. I think the default coaxial
input is CD. However, it's *very* easy to reconfigure the input labels in
the menu system so that the DVD signal is read from the coaxial input. The
manual tells you how to do it.

The remote is good, though how compatible you can make it with your other
equipment will depend upon the make of equipment. It works brilliantly with
my Sony DVD, but not at all with my, ahem, Schneider TV.

Matrix 6.1, changing inputs, and remote configuration are all in the manual.



  #12   Report Post  
badger
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Why?

--


There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.



  #13   Report Post  
Espen Braathen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...
Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?


It translates into no difference.


Espen B



  #14   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...
Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?


Not at all.


2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output.


Why worry about having two optical players?




  #15   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.

Why?


Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha products have ever gotten
favorable reviews in the American audiophile magazines, whereas Denon and Onkyo
products commonly do. Some of the worst-sounding surround products I reviewed
for Stereophile were Yamaha.



  #16   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:28:25 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
.. .


This audiophile says Denons have better base...


Better base? You mean the cabinet is sturdier?


Regrettably, that's the extent of Middius' understanding of audio.


Welcome back, Arnold. Just goes to show that the vacation didn't do
anything for your outlook.
  #17   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

In alt.home-theater.misc William Sommerwerck wrote:
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.


Why?


Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha products have ever gotten
favorable reviews in the American audiophile magazines,



Wow, talk about praising with faint damns.

Of the two units named, the original poster should buy the one
which has the most features he wants. Since he specifically mentioned
that he's interested in Pro Logic II, one thing to check into is
the configurability of the Pro Logic II mode. It's not price-correlated.
I have a Yammy 5540 and a Harmon Kardon AVR520; the latter cost
several hundred more than the former, and has more features and power, but
happens to be *less* configurable in DPL II made than the Yammy. The Yammies
allow you to adjust 'panorama' and a few other
user-configurable features of DPL II , whereas the H-K has
a 'fixed' DPL II config. Don't know about the Denon.




--
-S.

  #18   Report Post  
Matt
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

"crazysaybi" wrote in message
...
I'm not an audiophile, per se, but from what I've read, heard and
experienced, George is spot on about Denons producing a better bass sound
and Yamaha being the better sound processor. At that price range, you
should go for the Yamaha because it sounds like you'd probably have
lower-end speakers that won't handle bass too well anyhow, so might as

well
go for the better overall sound.


If Denons produce a better bass sound, and Yamaha have a better surround
processor, are there any of the same comparisions that can be made with the
low end Onkyo and Harmon Kardon receivers? Since the other 2 mentioned here
have areas that they are better at, I was just wondering if these 2 brands
have a "trademark" area.

Thanks for your help,
Matt


  #19   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



dave weil said:

Welcome back, Arnold. Just goes to show that the vacation didn't do
anything for your outlook.


Ask Mr. **** if he's received the court papers yet. Of course, it's
a well established pattern for him to be extra-nasty after a
"vacation".

  #20   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



Steven Sullivan said:

Of the two units named, the original poster should buy the one
which has the most features he wants.


Believe it or not, even $300 receivers can be distinguished
sonically. Is sound quality a "feature"?


Since he specifically mentioned
that he's interested in Pro Logic II, one thing to check into is
the configurability of the Pro Logic II mode.


Cue Krooger to natter on snottily about digital media.




  #21   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



Matt said:

If Denons produce a better bass sound, and Yamaha have a better surround
processor, are there any of the same comparisions that can be made with the
low end Onkyo and Harmon Kardon receivers? Since the other 2 mentioned here
have areas that they are better at, I was just wondering if these 2 brands
have a "trademark" area.


My comment about the bass response and surround processing was a
subjective opinion, not a well-known fact. Same for the other guy
who agreed with me. Personally, I'd favor the Denon on just those
two characteristics, but there are probably other factors you value.

That said, my experience with inexpensive HK receivers is they sound
"soft", i.e. much less chance of a glassy or tinkly sound in high
frequencies. Also, I've found that deep bass that sounds jarring on
some systems is also a little softer with an HK. However..... it's
been at least 2 years since I spent any time with one.

No opinion about Onkyos.

P.S. My strongest opinion is to ignore everything you hear from
Sommerdork. He's a twerp, an ideologue, and a total git. His claim
that Yamahas have a bad rep is a case in point. They don't have a
bad rep; quite the reverse.


  #22   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


dave weil said:

Welcome back, Arnold. Just goes to show that the vacation didn't do
anything for your outlook.


Ask Mr. **** if he's received the court papers yet.


Ask sockpuppet Wheel if he's panhandled the filing fee yet.


  #23   Report Post  
Sugarite
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

I'm looking to upgrade to a new Pro Logic II receiver and am undecided
between the Denon AVR-1603 or the Yamaha HTR-5550. I can get both for
the same price of $400 CAN. I haven't been able to compare the two
yet as they are sold by separate dealers where I'm from. Just wanted
to get the audiophile's opinion on this one. Thanks!


An audiophile would spend the $400 on a better stereo amp and actually get
decent tone.


  #24   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



Sugarite said:

An audiophile would spend the $400 on a better stereo amp and actually get
decent tone.


I think the guy wants a surround amp. But look, here's one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 973

and another:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 973

and some lower-priced options:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 973

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 973

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 973


There are also pre/pros available ebay, although not many with DPL2.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 974

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tegory=14 974


  #25   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

P.S. My strongest opinion is to ignore everything you hear from
Sommerdork. He's a twerp, an ideologue, and a total git. His claim
that Yamahas have a bad rep is a case in point. They don't have a
bad rep; quite the reverse.


One of the nice things about having an odd name is that it reveals how
profoundly un-clever people are in coming up with abusive variations.

I hold a BS EE, was at one time a serious amateur recordist, and reviewed for
over a decade at Stereophile. I won't offend you by naming the people in the
hi-fi industry who respect my opinion, whether or not they agree with me.

In and of themselves, these things prove nothing, but I usually know what I'm
talking about.

The fact is, Yamaha products rarely received favorable reviews in the audiophile
press. If you don't like that, tough, but that's the way it is.

Some years ago I reviewed the Yamaha DSP-1 (an ambience synthesizer) for
Stereophile. I "assumed" no one would be foolish enough to run the front
channels of their system through such a product, regardless of the manufacturer.
Unfortunately, I neglected to drive this point home and received a number of
brickbats from readers complaining about how the DSP-1 degraded the sound of
their system.

I remember a Yamaha surround processor whose rear channels sounded as if someone
had thrown a blanket over the speakers.

If I wanted a "modest" product from a Japanese manufacturer, I wouldn't waste my
time listening to Yamaha when there's Denon and Onkyo, two companies that _do_
get consistently good reviews in the audiophile press. In fact, The Abso!ute
Sound recently remarked that a fairly expensive ($4K) Denon processor was
sonically superior to a number of more-expensive components from high-end
audiophile companies.

There is one other factor, of course... If this customer is so worried about the
sound quality of a stinking receiver (I spent more than three times that for my
phono pickup, and that was at accommodation price), why doesn't he borrow the
units and listen to them, hmmm? That's how you learn. That's how you make the
decisions that are right for _you_.



  #26   Report Post  
Steven Sullivan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

In alt.home-theater.misc George M. Middius wrote:


Steven Sullivan said:


Of the two units named, the original poster should buy the one
which has the most features he wants.


Believe it or not, even $300 receivers can be distinguished
sonically. Is sound quality a "feature"?


Middius, eh? I remember rec.audio.opinion from before you befouled
it.

*plonk*



--
-S.

  #27   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



William Sommerwerck said:

P.S. My strongest opinion is to ignore everything you hear from
Sommerdork. He's a twerp, an ideologue, and a total git. His claim
that Yamahas have a bad rep is a case in point. They don't have a
bad rep; quite the reverse.


In and of themselves, these things prove nothing, but I usually know what I'm
talking about.


Not in this case. The only rap I've ever heard about Yamaha is that
bricks & mortar dealers don't give much discount off list.


  #28   Report Post  
Marc Phillips
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

William Sommerwerck said:

I hold a BS EE, was at one time a serious amateur recordist, and reviewed for
over a decade at Stereophile. I won't offend you by naming the people in the
hi-fi industry who respect my opinion, whether or not they agree with me.


In and of themselves, these things prove nothing, but I usually know what I'm
talking about.


Please...we don't need another Ferstler.

Boon




  #29   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

In and of themselves, these things prove nothing, but I usually
know what I'm talking about.


Not in this case. The only rap I've ever heard about Yamaha is
that bricks & mortar dealers don't give much discount off list.


I'm talking 25 years ago and more.

There was a time when "a certain class" of hi-fi dealers sold Yamaha, B&O, and
Macintosh. (You never saw just one or two of these brands in the stores --
always These Three. (That's a movie-title joke.) These were considered the top
brands by "the great unwashed," so such dealers didn't get much respect from
audiophiles.

I do not, however, believe that this is the source of the disrespect for Yamaha.
After all, the first Denon products in this country were mass-market garbage,
which was _never_ the case with Yamaha. Yamaha simply didn't produce
consistently good products.

Oddly, the first CD player with any wide acceptance among anti-digital
audiophiles was a not-very-expensive Yamaha.

  #30   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Is someone who records live performances, but isn't paid for it.

What an "amateur recordist", is?



  #31   Report Post  
Rob Adelman
 
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Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver



William Sommerwerck wrote:


Oddly, the first CD player with any wide acceptance among anti-digital
audiophiles was a not-very-expensive Yamaha.


Was that the natural sound series? I had a cassette deck and a tuner
from this series.

  #32   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Reasonable. I just hate when people don't qualify there remarks.

Clay

--


There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
Those who understand binary, and those who don't.

ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US!
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.


Why?


Because Yamaha has a terrible reputation. Few Yamaha products have ever

gotten
favorable reviews in the American audiophile magazines, whereas Denon and

Onkyo
products commonly do. Some of the worst-sounding surround products I

reviewed
for Stereophile were Yamaha.



  #33   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 17:07:54 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
wrote:

After all, the first Denon products in this country were mass-market garbage


Untrue.
  #34   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:29:52 -0500, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

Oddly, the first CD player with any wide acceptance among anti-digital
audiophiles was a not-very-expensive Yamaha.


Untrue again.
  #35   Report Post  
Brad Clarke
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:29:52 -0500, Rob Adelman
wrote:



William Sommerwerck wrote:


Oddly, the first CD player with any wide acceptance among anti-digital
audiophiles was a not-very-expensive Yamaha.


Was that the natural sound series? I had a cassette deck and a tuner
from this series.

I still have a CDX-410U that I bought in 1987. It skips a bit and the
door doesn't always open. I'm going to take it to the shop to get
cleaned, etc. and use in my second system.

I also have an AX-500 amp, TX-500 tuner, K-340B and KX-930 Cassette
decks.

Brad


  #36   Report Post  
crazysaybi
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

William has quite some credentials. I trust that he does indeed know his
stuff and I don't want to sound at all confrontational here...

If you read auto magazines like "Car and Driver", for example, they tend to
have a bias towards Hondas/Acuras and BMWs. Those "in the know",
stereophiles in this case, seem to disregard other manufacturers because
they have their own trusted favorites, which is not to discredit their
opinions at all.

With that said, from all the (extensive) research and auditioning that I've
done, I'd have to agree that Denons are indeed the best overall for amps and
receivers. Even the salespeople who listen to them all the time agree that
Denons are the best overall (although it makes one wonder if they get higher
commission for pitching them, but that's a matter for another thread). The
salespeople did rate the Yamahas second best overall with Onkyos coming in a
close third. However, dollar for dollar, I do believe that Yamahas are the
best. I own a Yamaha integrated amp... no complaints here.

But ultimately it's all in what YOU hear. Try to "audition" holding as many
variables constant as possible.

Yamaha Reviews:
http://www.audioreview.com/PRD_130572_2718crx.aspx
http://ic.dealtime.com/xPR-Yamaha_HT...RD-96984141444

Denon Reviews:
http://www.audioreview.com/Receivers...x.aspx#reviews

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
P.S. My strongest opinion is to ignore everything you hear from
Sommerdork. He's a twerp, an ideologue, and a total git. His claim
that Yamahas have a bad rep is a case in point. They don't have a
bad rep; quite the reverse.


One of the nice things about having an odd name is that it reveals how
profoundly un-clever people are in coming up with abusive variations.

I hold a BS EE, was at one time a serious amateur recordist, and reviewed

for
over a decade at Stereophile. I won't offend you by naming the people in

the
hi-fi industry who respect my opinion, whether or not they agree with me.

In and of themselves, these things prove nothing, but I usually know what

I'm
talking about.

The fact is, Yamaha products rarely received favorable reviews in the

audiophile
press. If you don't like that, tough, but that's the way it is.

Some years ago I reviewed the Yamaha DSP-1 (an ambience synthesizer) for
Stereophile. I "assumed" no one would be foolish enough to run the front
channels of their system through such a product, regardless of the

manufacturer.
Unfortunately, I neglected to drive this point home and received a number

of
brickbats from readers complaining about how the DSP-1 degraded the sound

of
their system.

I remember a Yamaha surround processor whose rear channels sounded as if

someone
had thrown a blanket over the speakers.

If I wanted a "modest" product from a Japanese manufacturer, I wouldn't

waste my
time listening to Yamaha when there's Denon and Onkyo, two companies that

_do_
get consistently good reviews in the audiophile press. In fact, The

Abso!ute
Sound recently remarked that a fairly expensive ($4K) Denon processor was
sonically superior to a number of more-expensive components from high-end
audiophile companies.

There is one other factor, of course... If this customer is so worried

about the
sound quality of a stinking receiver (I spent more than three times that

for my
phono pickup, and that was at accommodation price), why doesn't he borrow

the
units and listen to them, hmmm? That's how you learn. That's how you make

the
decisions that are right for _you_.



  #37   Report Post  
JBorg
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

William Sommerwerck wrote:
George M. Middius wrote...
William Sommerwerck said:





Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.


That's quite stupid. Buy the one you prefer.


But we're supposed to the tell the guy what his preference _should_ be.


That is still quite because the guy is asking for opinions, not
what his preference should be.
  #38   Report Post  
Ken Catchpole
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver


"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
Don't even THINK about buying anything Yamaha. Get the Denon.


Rubbish.
If you want "opinion", listen to this poster. If you want helpful advice,
listen to everyone else.



  #39   Report Post  
Andrew M.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

Your DVD player can probably play CD's too so it's not a problem. I have
a Yamaha receiver with 3 optical and one coax input.

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jason Wong" wrote in message
...

Have a couple more questions to add to this discussion after perusing
through both operating manuals.

1) The specs for this Denon say 80W per channel, and the Yamaha 75W.
Does this translate into a large difference?



Not at all.



2) Does this Yamaha have no coaxial audio input for DVD? It appears to
only have one for CD, and optical input for DVD only. I wonder if that
makes me screwed because my DVD player has no optical audio output.



Why worry about having two optical players?





  #40   Report Post  
William Sommerwerck
 
Posts: n/a
Default Denon vs Yamaha receiver

It was the 303, I believe. Don't remember the alpha prefix.

I remember when it came out ca. 1986 (?). It was the first CD player that got
grudgingly favorable reviews.

Oddly, the first CD player with any wide acceptance among
anti-digital audiophiles was a not-very-expensive Yamaha.


Untrue again.


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