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#1
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MS mic theory, dumb question (maybe)
Just pondering on getting a new/ebayed mic(s) for my video camera,
XL1s, and I was think of MS principles in general. Take a standard MS setup, fig8 pointing sideways, and a cardiod pointing forward. If I put a second cardiod pointing backwards,using the same fig8 as the front cardiod do I get good old fashioned Quad, but I know most of the time I would just get ambience. Just thinking aloud... martin "Wales is a big welsh-shaped rain collection device" |
#2
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why?
-- Oleg Kaizerman (gebe) Hollyland "martin griffith" wrote in message ... Just pondering on getting a new/ebayed mic(s) for my video camera, XL1s, and I was think of MS principles in general. Take a standard MS setup, fig8 pointing sideways, and a cardiod pointing forward. If I put a second cardiod pointing backwards,using the same fig8 as the front cardiod do I get good old fashioned Quad, but I know most of the time I would just get ambience. Just thinking aloud... martin "Wales is a big welsh-shaped rain collection device" |
#3
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martin griffith wrote: Just pondering on getting a new/ebayed mic(s) for my video camera, XL1s, and I was think of MS principles in general. Take a standard MS setup, fig8 pointing sideways, and a cardiod pointing forward. If I put a second cardiod pointing backwards,using the same fig8 as the front cardiod do I get good old fashioned Quad, but I know most of the time I would just get ambience. Just thinking aloud... martin "Wales is a big welsh-shaped rain collection device" I think you're better of just using two figure-8 mic's so there's really only two diaphragms involved. No matter how close you get the two cardiods to each other there will likely be some issues due to the distance between them. |
#4
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I just recorded a concert that way using CCM Schoeps (front and rear
MS) and works very well. But, do you intend to use the mics attached to the camera? |
#5
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been a sound recordist for 20 years + still mostly mono... mid-side raw
would be possible to the cam, but I think you are limited to two inputs on the cannon, so no quad in the field. Mid Side must be matrixed so that one side of the fig8 is in phase with the mid and the other side out. Changing the phase relationship widens or narrows the stereo sound-field and the mid can always be used as mono. This is the advantage of MS...it can always be used mono with no side to avoid stereo phasing anomalies in mono broadcast situations. Heck Martin just share the wealth and hire a sound recordist but remember "For every expert there is an equal but opposite expert" Why not? "the only dumb questions are the ones that never get asked" Good Luck, Jeff |
#6
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oops, I think you will need the matrix between the mics and the
camera. most field mixers fp33 sd442, pscm4a+ and others have this function also Shure makes a mic (VP-88) with the matrix built in. If I have caused any confusion I apologise Jeff |
#8
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#9
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#11
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Paul, come on! You suggest using two figure 8s because of issues
regarding cardiods. if you don't know what MS stereo recording is, please remain in the grip department . |
#12
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...This is the advantage of MS...it can always be used mono with no side to avoid stereo phasing anomalies in mono broadcast situations.... If it's recorded right, the S automatically disappears when you sum to mono. A form of m/s encoding is also the basis of stereo analog radio and tv, with the m signal transmitted on the main carrier, and the s transmitted on a higher frequency subcarrier that mono sets ignore. -- Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com |
#13
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"Jay Rose CAS" wrote in message ... ...This is the advantage of MS...it can always be used mono with no side to avoid stereo phasing anomalies in mono broadcast situations.... If it's recorded right, the S automatically disappears when you sum to mono. A form of m/s encoding is also the basis of stereo analog radio and tv, with the m signal transmitted on the main carrier, and the s transmitted on a higher frequency subcarrier that mono sets ignore. -- Correct address is spell out the letter j, AT dplaydahtcom Clio- and Emmy-winning sound design Learn audio for video at www.dplay.com Nice to see you here in r.a.p. again, Jay.... even if by crosspost. -- David Morgan (MAMS) http://www.m-a-m-s.com Morgan Audio Media Service Dallas, Texas (214) 662-9901 _______________________________________ http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com |
#15
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Hello Martin
A while back, someone posted a few GREAT links for information about M-S recording..... As soon as I can find them, I will post the links.... Allen Sklar Audio By Allen LLC Tempe Az martin griffith wrote: Just pondering on getting a new/ebayed mic(s) for my video camera, XL1s, and I was think of MS principles in general. |
#16
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SSJVCmag wrote: On 4/11/05 11:08 AM, in article , "martin griffith" wrote: Just pondering on getting a new/ebayed mic(s) for my video camera, XL1s, and I was think of MS principles in general. Take a standard MS setup, fig8 pointing sideways, and a cardiod pointing forward. If I put a second cardiod pointing backwards,using the same fig8 as the front cardiod do I get good old fashioned Quad, but I know most of the time I would just get ambience. Just thinking aloud... Doesn;t sound like you understand how MS works. You either get A) the badly-approximated equivalent of an MS using an OMNI instead of a card By summing the front and rear card to a single M signal. I dunno about it being badly-approximated, however. In what way do you mean? which decodes nicely as hearing the WHOLE ROOM in stereo and images very well. If you like the sound of two first order mics, (sub to hyper)cardiods, pointing due port and due starbord. B) the badly-approximated equivalent of Blumlien-MS where you have crossed fig-8's with one pointing forward. This decodes exactly like normal XY-8's pointed 45 L and 45 R with all of the critical 'don;t place things here' zones that that rig mandates. By subtracting the rear card from the front one to a single M signal. Actually, I favor this approach for the S signal when making a mic from capsules because it is easier to find three well matched cards than it is to find a card and a fig 8 that are well matched. When each mic is big and bulky with screens around them or metal tubes behind them, getting low diffraction spatial coincidence is not very likely. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
#17
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Thanks for the gozinda (input)..... Is anyone recording other than
ambience using Mid Side. Thanks j |
#18
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HEHE seems like Wales is a welsh shaped smart ass collecton device
filtered white/pink noise.... gee what kind of filter white or pink.... you post guys crack me up |
#19
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A second cardioid facing backward on an MS array will make the mid
signal esentially omnidirectional. If you reverse the polarity on the second cardioid, you are creating a de facto figure 8, approaching "MS Blumlein" In no case are you creating a quad signal, but if you play a blumlein pair back through a dolby pro logic system with rear speakers, you will get some really interesting results. bottom line-- any microphone may be used for the "MID" of an MS array. better one microphone than two. Richard Kuschel |
#21
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#22
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On 4/13/05 5:50 PM, in article ,
"martin griffith" wrote: On 13 Apr 2005 10:20:02 -0400, in rec.audio.pro (Scott Dorsey) wrote: wrote: A second cardioid facing backward on an MS array will make the mid signal esentially omnidirectional. If you reverse the polarity on the second cardioid, you are creating a de facto figure 8, approaching "MS Blumlein" In no case are you creating a quad signal, but if you play a blumlein pair back through a dolby pro logic system with rear speakers, you will get some really interesting results. No, no, the notion is to put a second cardioid facing backwards, and record it to a discrete third channel. This _does_ give you a channel of rear information to work with, albeit one without directional cues other than thase from the S mike. --scott Hmm, Since i started the OP,. Continuing what Scot has said The whole system is symmetrical, there is no difference between the front and rear cardiod, either can be front OR back. So the sideways fig8 is common to both front and rear systems. This implies that with 3 mics you can have 4 channels with suitable a matrix. Going back to Scott This _does_ give you a channel of rear information to work with, albeit one without directional cue Well if you de-matrix (?) the rear cardiod with the (normally front) S signal, The S is just SIDE, not 'front' or 'back' does this not mean you will have directional clues, for rear speakers? Since the S signal dont know anything about rear or front signals. confused, ... Almost Not so much! the back-facing card decoded with the Side would inded be a back-facing stereo thing. Interestingly what you;ve invented here is pretty much the CALREC/SOUNDFIELDn capsule array. 4 diaphragms that can be dematrixed in a number of ways to get all this. |
#23
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SSJVCmag wrote: Interestingly what you;ve invented here is pretty much the CALREC/SOUNDFIELDn capsule array. 4 diaphragms that can be dematrixed in a number of ways to get all this. The Soundfield mic has four capsules, each on the face of a tetrahedron. It is a 3-D device, not a 2-D device and from the signals you can decode logical mics with any 1st order pattern pointing in any direction. That's with ideal capsules, of course. Real world capsules impose a whole lot of inaccuracy in that. Bob -- "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein |
#24
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martin griffith wrote:
Continuing what Scot has said The whole system is symmetrical, there is no difference between the front and rear cardiod, either can be front OR back. So the sideways fig8 is common to both front and rear systems. This implies that with 3 mics you can have 4 channels with suitable a matrix. Going back to Scott This _does_ give you a channel of rear information to work with, albeit one without directional cue Well if you de-matrix (?) the rear cardiod with the (normally front) S signal, does this not mean you will have directional clues, for rear speakers? Since the S signal dont know anything about rear or front signals. If you de-matrix the rear cardioid with the side signal, anything to the side of the stereo image, even if it's up front, will appear in the rear channels. I don't like that. I'd rather have too little rear pickup than too much. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#25
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damifino wrote:
Is anyone recording other than ambience using Mid Side. Yes. Can work on almost all sections, pianos, drum kits, acoustic guitars, standup basses, assorted squeezeboxen, and of course as a main pair on acoustic ensembles. |
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