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#2
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I think your blind!! Subwoofer direction
Nousaine wrote:
So where is your open-end? Did you see that in Everest? Did you read the part about traveling and standing waves? the Everest book is JUST LIKE MY CARTOONS! Speaker at one side, reflector at the other side! Eddie Runner If you dont see that your a blind man! |
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#3
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I think your blind!! Subwoofer direction
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#4
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I think your blind!! Subwoofer direction
Nousaine wrote:
Where is that Open tube you were talking about? Well I dont have it on me... it is in a physics book that I have at home... Eddie |
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#6
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I think your blind!! Subwoofer direction
Eddie Runner wrote:
I tried to attach the picture to post here of the standing wave in the open ended tube ... But I guess RAC isnt taking GIFs anymore... So here is the picture in this link http://installer.com/tech/standingwave.html Sorry to prove you wrong again TOM, I was hoping a magazine writer of your statur could put up a better arguement.... Take a look.. Eddie Runner Eddie Runner wrote: Nousaine wrote: Where is that Open tube you were talking about? Well I dont have it on me... it is in a physics book that I have at home... Eddie You really do make this stuff up, don't you. The reason you can't find another source that uses an open tube to illustrate standing waves is that all of them use a tube that is closed at the far end such as the one in the Everest book. Look at your picture; how does that 'reflection' occur at the open-end of the tube? Does sound simply decide to stop and reverse itself independently? This discussion is just plain silly and you are just plain wrong. Inventing your own BS spin doesn't change physics or car interior acoustics. |
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#7
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the time!ha ha ha
Nousaine wrote:
So here is the picture in this link http://installer.com/tech/standingwave.html You really do make this stuff up, don't you. I didnt DRAW that picture in the link, I scarfed it from an Indiana University paper on standing waves..... I didnt make it up! The reason you can't find another source that uses an open tube to illustrate standing waves is that all of them use a tube that is closed at the far end such as the one in the Everest book. I can find LOTS of pictures of open ended tubes!! How many should I produce (in addition to this one) before you will shut your mouth????? And you just said " all of them use a tube that is closed at the far end" Which leads me to believe you are trying to CHANGE YOUR STORY AGAIN!! Yesterday you said you must have TWO REFLECTORS! (two walls) The picture in the link above has ONLY ONE REFLECTOR! And now after you saw it your saying all it needs is a reflector at the FAR END....?? Sounds like your changing your story again TOM! Dont forget, your old posts where you said something different cant be deleted, your words are here for ALL TO SEE!!! Look at your picture; how does that 'reflection' occur at the open-end of the tube? Does sound simply decide to stop and reverse itself independently? Who says there is a reflection at the open end of the tube??? THERE DOESNT HAVE TO BE! The sound sources wave moves from left to right. it hits the END of the tube and reflects back from right to left. these TWO waves cause interference with each other and WALLA, a standing wave is born! it says so right on the picture, what part of it dont you understand??? This discussion is just plain silly and you are just plain wrong. Inventing your own BS spin doesn't change physics or car interior acoustics. So are you saying you dont belive the picture???? Shall I scan in some more for you???? I admit you have read Everests book and seem to understand his coverage of standing waves, but he barely touches the subject! Knowing ONLY what is in his book can be (and appearantly is) very confusing.... Branch out Tom, get ya some OTHER books as well...Learn the WHOLE STORY of standing waves.... When I post some proof for you its not polite for you to just say ITS SILLY and ignore it! WHERE IS YOUR PROOF??? I can post more and quote more and scan you more pictures from my VAST LIBRARY if you wish.... OR, now that you know your beaten are you just gonna say ITS SILLY and leave this entertaining thread???? Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
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#8
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the time!
Eddie Runner
Nousaine wrote: So here is the picture in this link http://installer.com/tech/standingwave.html You really do make this stuff up, don't you. I didnt DRAW that picture in the link, I scarfed it from an Indiana University paper on standing waves..... I didnt make it up! The reason you can't find another source that uses an open tube to illustrate standing waves is that all of them use a tube that is closed at the far end such as the one in the Everest book. I can find LOTS of pictures of open ended tubes!! If you're claiming that there is a 'source' at the 'open-end' then the tube is closed at both ends for the purpose of setting up a standing wave. JUST LIKE the Kundt tube picture in Everest. How many should I produce (in addition to this one) before you will shut your mouth????? And you just said " all of them use a tube that is closed at the far end" Which leads me to believe you are trying to CHANGE YOUR STORY AGAIN!! Yesterday you said you must have TWO REFLECTORS! (two walls) The picture in the link above has ONLY ONE REFLECTOR! But if the source is at the other wall then there are TWO opposing surfaces Eddie. If one end is 'open' then the medium will leak out and you'll have a traveling wave. In a space (car or a room) you need opposing surface to generate standing waves, otherwise they just travel away. And now after you saw it your saying all it needs is a reflector at the FAR END....?? Sounds like your changing your story again TOM! Dont forget, your old posts where you said something different cant be deleted, your words are here for ALL TO SEE!!! Look at your picture; how does that 'reflection' occur at the open-end of the tube? Does sound simply decide to stop and reverse itself independently? Who says there is a reflection at the open end of the tube??? THERE DOESNT HAVE TO BE! So where is the sound generated in your picture? Does it just 'appear' out of nowhere? The Kundt Tube has a speaker that completely fills one end of the tube and forms one of the surfaces. Otherwise the front/rear wave would cancel at frequencies with wavelengths larger than the diameter of the source. The sound sources wave moves from left to right. it hits the END of the tube and reflects back from right to left. these TWO waves cause interference with each other and WALLA, a standing wave is born! If the source fills the 'open' end of the tube than it's not open, is it? Take your subwoofer outside and place it 3-feet from a garage wall. Put in a 60 Hz tone, or beter yet, pink noise. What do you get? You get a response dip at approx. 150 Hz. There will be no standing waves established. it says so right on the picture, what part of it dont you understand??? This discussion is just plain silly and you are just plain wrong. Inventing your own BS spin doesn't change physics or car interior acoustics. So are you saying you dont belive the picture???? Shall I scan in some more for you???? I admit you have read Everests book and seem to understand his coverage of standing waves, but he barely touches the subject! Knowing ONLY what is in his book can be (and appearantly is) very confusing.... Branch out Tom, get ya some OTHER books as well...Learn the WHOLE STORY of standing waves.... I refer you to "Acoustics" by Leo Baranek pp 25-32 (great drawing of the tube) and Chapter 10 for further study Eddie. Branch out and learn what standing waves are. When I post some proof for you its not polite for you to just say ITS SILLY and ignore it! WHERE IS YOUR PROOF??? Baranek; listed above. I can post more and quote more and scan you more pictures from my VAST LIBRARY if you wish.... Get out your copy of Acoustics. OR, now that you know your beaten are you just gonna say ITS SILLY and leave this entertaining thread???? Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ I'm beginning to think your head is an open-tube. Acoustics information goes in one and just blows out the other. |
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#9
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TOM is PREDJUDICED !!
Nousaine wrote:
I can find LOTS of pictures of open ended tubes!! If you're claiming that there is a 'source' at the 'open-end' then the tube is closed at both ends for the purpose of setting up a standing wave. JUST LIKE the Kundt tube picture in Everest. No Tom, Your predjudice is showing! Certainly there has to be a source at the open end of the tube! BUT, the source doesnt have to SEAL UP the open end, the source CAN seal it up like in the picture of the KUNTZ TUBE, but it doesnt have to!! The source can be 1ft away, the source can be 50ft away! The only requrement is that sound enters the tube on the open end and then reflects off the closed end... There are waves moving both directions, so a standing wave occurs! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BOTH ENDS BEING CLOSED! IT ONLY HAS TO DO WITH TWO WAVES CROSSING EACH OTHER!!! Your PREDJUDICE on this matter is showing! Please do a little more study on this subject... YOUR ONE BOOK has you predjudiced by what it neglectd to tell you about standing waves.... Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
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#10
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all thetime!
Nousaine wrote:
The picture in the link above has ONLY ONE REFLECTOR! But if the source is at the other wall then there are TWO opposing surfaces Eddie. If one end is 'open' then the medium will leak out and you'll have a traveling wave. In a space (car or a room) you need opposing surface to generate standing waves, otherwise they just travel away. The sound CAN travel away! THATS OK! All thats required to make a standing wave is 2 waves that cross.... they can travel away AFTER they cross, who cares!! When you add the other wall you want to put in there thats THREE waves!!! IT ONLY REQUIRES TWO! Its so simple, it hurts me that you dont grasp it.... Who says there is a reflection at the open end of the tube??? THERE DOESNT HAVE TO BE! So where is the sound generated in your picture? Could be a SPEAKER, Could be a FAT LADY SINGING IN THE NEXT ROOM! DOESNT MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! Does it just 'appear' out of nowhere? IT DOESNT MATTER!!! As long as we have sound it can be ANYTHING that produces it (assuming the frequncy of the sound matches the deminsions of the length of the tube , in this case 1/4 wave just like I been saying all along and just like it pictures in my CARTOONS!) The Kundt Tube has a speaker that completely fills one end of the tube and forms one of the surfaces. Otherwise the front/rear wave would cancel at frequencies with wavelengths larger than the diameter of the source. BULL****! Are you saying there would be NO LOW FREQUENCY IN THE TUBE if the wavelength was longer than the diameter of the tube???? Who told you that lie???????????? I know you have at least ONE BOOK over there but it sounds like you learned yourphysics thats not in that book from a Fkin CRACKER JACK BOX! The sound sources wave moves from left to right. it hits the END of the tube and reflects back from right to left. these TWO waves cause interference with each other and WALLA, a standing wave is born! If the source fills the 'open' end of the tube than it's not open, is it? DOESNT HAVE TO!! (how many times do I have to say this??) I refer you to "Acoustics" by Leo Baranek pp 25-32 (great drawing of the tube) and Chapter 10 for further study Eddie. Branch out and learn what standing waves are. Oh Come on Tom, that damn book is ancient history! published back in 1954! I own a first edition of it!! IF were gonna go back to ancient history how bout Sound Waves and Acoustics by Colby! (1934!!!) Page 135 shows 5 pictures of open ended tubes with standing waves in them!! THREE of them are open AT BOTH ENDS!! According to THIS BOOK and others.... * But when this compression reaches the open end of the pipe the walls are no longer present to balance this lateral pressure and expansion takes place in all directions. Thus, the effect of the open end of the pipe is to allow this exess pressure to be suddenly reduced towards normal, starting rarefaction waves in both directions from the open end of the pipe as the air rushes out and conversly as the air rushes in upon the arrival of the rarefaction at the open end of the pipe, a compression wave is started in both directions. ** I guess you missed that too Tom.... Of course I never intended it to get into it so deep to point out that the air pressure changes at the end of an open tube reflect some sounds back into the tube and can contribute to standing waves... BUT you made me do it.. ha ha ha WHERE IS YOUR PROOF??? Baranek; listed above. Baranek cant even speak english! Get out your copy of Acoustics. Its at home, or I would be quoting you with it right now.... Eddie Runner |
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#11
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TOM is PREDJUDICED !!
Eddie Runner wrote:
Nousaine wrote: I can find LOTS of pictures of open ended tubes!! If you're claiming that there is a 'source' at the 'open-end' then the tube is closed at both ends for the purpose of setting up a standing wave. JUST LIKE the Kundt tube picture in Everest. No Tom, Your predjudice is showing! Certainly there has to be a source at the open end of the tube! BUT, the source doesnt have to SEAL UP the open end, the source CAN seal it up like in the picture of the KUNTZ TUBE, but it doesnt have to!! The source can be 1ft away, the source can be 50ft away! The only requrement is that sound enters the tube on the open end and then reflects off the closed end... But if the tube is open the return wave just exits the tube into the atmosphere. If the source is in the open end but doesn't seal it then only standing waves can form at frequencies that are a wavelength of less that the surface of the source. Also a source 1 foot away would have to be beaming a high frequency signal directly into the tube hole then wouldn't it? There are waves moving both directions, so a standing wave occurs! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BOTH ENDS BEING CLOSED! IT ONLY HAS TO DO WITH TWO WAVES CROSSING EACH OTHER!!! Your PREDJUDICE on this matter is showing! Please do a little more study on this subject... YOUR ONE BOOK has you predjudiced by what it neglectd to tell you about standing waves.... Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ Actually i have Baranek, Olsen, Geddes, Borwick at my fingertips Eddy. |
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#12
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the
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#13
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the
OK Let's stop with the arguing and deal with some data. While testing the
MTX9500 12-inch woofer I decided to put this issue to bed with some measurements. Ready? I used MLSSA and an Audio Control 3050a to measure frequency response in my 2001 Corvette with the SPL, response and distortion sensing microphones on the drivers seat at ear level with the seat at my normal listening height and distance from the dash. No microphone was ever moved during the testing. I measured frequency response and SPL @ 10% distortion limit for the woofer facing to the rear of the car, to the front of the car and facing rearward with the hatch open. The 1.25 ft3 sealed cabinet was rotated so the face of the woofer was in the same position whether it was facing to the front or the rear. In regard to frequency response there was a mild peak centered at 46 Hz that was 1 dB worse (higher) when the woofer was facing the rear of the car than when it faced forward. When the hatch was opened response fell by an average of 12 dB below 60 Hz and was 24 dB down at 10 Hz. The latter was no surprise because with the hatch open you lose the cabin gain. SPL measurements: SPL averaged over the 10 to 62 Hz range was 0.5 dB greater when the woofer was facing the front of the car compared to when it faced rearward. These are within the 1 dB tolerance I apply to these type of measurements. Both were more than 10 dB greater than when the hatch was open. Both front/rear facing positions had no trouble cranking out 125 dB SPL at 10 Hz while the enclosure could only do 107 dB at 16 hz when the hatch was open. 10 and 12 Hz at levels above background noise were not obtainable with the hatch open. When I measured maximum SPLwith my 3 test tracks the forward facing woofer had 0.7 dB greater SPL, again within the tolerance for these kind of measurements. Both had max SPL more than 5 dB greater than the same tracks played with the hatch open. Remember these measurements were made with the microphones at the listening position and with everything OTHER than the cabinet direction and the hatch closed/open held constant. So much for the front/rear debate. It is true that the upper bass seemed louder "outside" the car when the hatch was open but when it was the speaker/enclosure system was incapable of delivering real SPL even inside the car at ultralow frequencies. So what's the difference between this conditon and opening the trunk? IME the an open trunk retains the cabin gain inside the passenger compartment so the effects are essentially nullifed at true "bass" frequencies unless you have a infinite baffle installation, and even then, most trunks are big enough and most woofer have a compliance (Vas) such that it shouldn't really matter. So why do we get these "reports" of woofer direction major differences? The most likely reason is that the reports are formed under conditions where more than one thing was changed during the data gathering (no experimental controls) and the impression may have been taken under conditons different from being in the car in the drivers seat (standing outside, for example.) But arguing over standing waves is pretty counter-productive. Eddie has no data to support his conjecture and even if his diagram is bull**** let him provide replicable evidence that supports his point. |
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#14
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the
BLAH BLAH BLAH So much for the front/rear debate. It is true that the upper bass seemed louder "outside" the car when the hatch was open but when it was the speaker/enclosure system was incapable of delivering real SPL even inside the car at ultralow frequencies. Tom ONE CAR. You didnt try in any other car. Post the graphs too. You have NEVER refuted what Eddie has said, where are your graphs and your pictures? Nowhere. Tom I have done similar tests and got totally different results. How do you explain that? Bet ya cant. Now go get em Eddie Les |
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#15
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TOM is PREDJUDICED !!
Nousaine wrote:
The source can be 1ft away, the source can be 50ft away! The only requrement is that sound enters the tube on the open end and then reflects off the closed end... But if the tube is open the return wave just exits the tube into the atmosphere. who cares? The standing wave will happen BEFORE the reflected wave goes out of the tube and dissapears into thin air! If the source is in the open end but doesn't seal it then only standing waves can form at frequencies that are a wavelength of less that the surface of the source. a standing wave WILL FORM and the node will be at 1/4 wavelength from the reflector, the antinode will be at 1/2 wavelength from the reflector... Also a source 1 foot away would have to be beaming a high frequency signal directly into the tube hole then wouldn't it? No, of course not! SOUND can enter the tube even if the sound is created several meters away from the tube... YOUR EARDRUMS ARE AT THE FAR END OF A TUBE, does a speaker need to be pushed up tight against the side of your head for sound to enter your ear??????????? HELL NO! THINK THINK !!!! Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
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#16
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TOM is PREDJUDICED !!
Eddie Runner wrote:
Nousaine wrote: The source can be 1ft away, the source can be 50ft away! The only requrement is that sound enters the tube on the open end and then reflects off the closed end... But if the tube is open the return wave just exits the tube into the atmosphere. who cares? The standing wave will happen BEFORE the reflected wave goes out of the tube and dissapears into thin air! If the source is in the open end but doesn't seal it then only standing waves can form at frequencies that are a wavelength of less that the surface of the source. a standing wave WILL FORM and the node will be at 1/4 wavelength from the reflector, the antinode will be at 1/2 wavelength from the reflector... OK and how big does this tube have to then be for a 60 Hz sound to both enter and form a standing wave? And how much SPL and what directivity does the 50-foot away source have to have for this to happen? Also a source 1 foot away would have to be beaming a high frequency signal directly into the tube hole then wouldn't it? No, of course not! SOUND can enter the tube even if the sound is created several meters away from the tube... ] Really? How does a 50 Hz tone get in there? Sure this analogy 'could' happen in your imagination BUT why then do all the tubes physically made have one end sealed with a plug and the other with the source? YOUR EARDRUMS ARE AT THE FAR END OF A TUBE, does a speaker need to be pushed up tight against the side of your head for sound to enter your ear??????????? HELL NO! THINK THINK !!!! Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ This is the most intelligent thing you've actually said. But at what frequencies do the standing waves in my ear canal form? Any 60 Hz modes in there? But, anyway Eddie, let's get down to data. I've posted some. Let's see yours. |
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#17
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the
Nousaine wrote:
Could be a SPEAKER, Could be a FAT LADY SINGING IN THE NEXT ROOM! DOESNT MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! So unless it's a high frequency that is quite directional how does it access the tube? And at what frequency does the standing wave form. NO, it can be BASS!! at 60Hz you will need 4ft in the tube for a 1/4 wave to bounce back to the node.... Why are you on this high frequency kick Tom??? Standing waves can occur at ANY frequency!! BULL****! Are you saying there would be NO LOW FREQUENCY IN THE TUBE if the wavelength was longer than the diameter of the tube???? No I'm saying that the backwave would cancel the front at low frequencies No, Tom... it would ONLY cancel at the NODES and reinforce at the ANTINODES.... look it up Tom.... Oh Come on Tom, that damn book is ancient history! published back in 1954! I own a first edition of it!! Yeah; I'll bet you do. Are you callin me a LIAR????? What do ya want me to do Tom, take a picture of the FIRST EDITION with me holding it next to tomorrows newspaper with the date visible??? And post it on my web site??? ha ha ha * But when this compression reaches the open end of the pipe the walls are no longer present to balance this lateral pressure and expansion takes place in all directions. Thus, the effect of the open end of the pipe is to allow this exess pressure to be suddenly reduced towards normal, starting rarefaction waves in both directions from the open end of the pipe as the air rushes out and conversly as the air rushes in upon the arrival of the rarefaction at the open end of the pipe, a compression wave is started in both directions. ** OK and where is the standing wave Eddie? Right there in the tube where the picture shows it TOM.... Do I have to scan these pictures in cause YOU DONT HAVE THIS BOOK??? Its at home, or I would be quoting you with it right now.... Eddie Runner Why not just get out your first edition on the Bull**** Manual whilst you're at it. WHAT PAGE???? ;-) Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
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#18
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TOM is PREDJUDICED !!
Nousaine wrote:
a standing wave WILL FORM and the node will be at 1/4 wavelength from the reflector, the antinode will be at 1/2 wavelength from the reflector... OK and how big does this tube have to then be for a 60 Hz sound to both enter and form a standing wave? for the first node to form at 1/4 wave from the reflector it would have to be about 4.5ft long. about 9 ft for the first antinode.... (at60Hz) And how much SPL and what directivity does the 50-foot away source have to have for this to happen? Not as much as it sounds like you think it needs... ANYSOUND in this room would enter ANY TUBE I could hold up to my ear right now.... Why do you think it needs tobe particularly LOUD or particularly directional ???? EVEN BASS will go up a tube if it encounters a tube...!!! Any sound that does enter the tube CAN create a standing wave IF the tube is long enough.... (even easier in an enclosed car) No, of course not! SOUND can enter the tube even if the sound is created several meters away from the tube... Really? YES!! How does a 50 Hz tone get in there? Same way it enters YOUR EARDRUM!! Is there some reason YOU THINK 50Hz wont go down a tube like your ear canal to reach your eardrum???? If so (and we all know IT IS SO) then the same 50Hz source will send sound down ANYTUBE we choose from several meters away.... WHY ARE YOU EVEN QUESTIONING THIS??? IS THAT THE BEST YOU CAN DO???? Sure this analogy 'could' happen in your imagination BUT why then do all the tubes physically made have one end sealed with a plug and the other with the source? They dont! Maybe yours do, if so YOU answer that question! I got LOTS O pictures here with tubes with standing waves with ONE and even BOTH ends of the tubes OPEN! Why are you so narrow minded???? YOUR EARDRUMS ARE AT THE FAR END OF A TUBE, does a This is the most intelligent thing you've actually said. But at what frequencies do the standing waves in my ear canal form? Any 60 Hz modes in there? Unless you had 4 ft long ear canals you would have NO standing waves in your ear canals.... (no NODES or ANTINODES at 60Hz) BUT the reason I brought it up was to prove BASS can (and does) enter ANY TUBE! Gotcha there! you agree??? Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
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#19
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the
Now go get em Eddie
Les ha ha ha Thanks Les, But I ALREADY GOT HIM! Tom cant argue his way out of a paper bag in a rainstorm! Eddie Ya you did already get him, you have called his bull**** on EVERY post and yet he still comes back. BTW good call on him trying to confuse the kiddies, he is like those math problems that had a bunch of extra stuff in them just to confuse you. Maybe one day he will learn that his corvette is not the only type of car on the road. But atleast this has made more learn more and do some more reseach on standing waves and other fun effects. Les |
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#21
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TOM is PREDJUDICED !!
Nousaine wrote: a standing wave WILL FORM and the node will be at 1/4 wavelength from the reflector, the antinode will be at 1/2 wavelength from the reflector... OK and how big does this tube have to then be for a 60 Hz sound to both enter and form a standing wave? for the first node to form at 1/4 wave from the reflector it would have to be about 4.5ft long. about 9 ft for the first antinode.... (at60Hz) And how much SPL and what directivity does the 50-foot away source have to have for this to happen? Not as much as it sounds like you think it needs... ANYSOUND in this room would enter ANY TUBE I could hold up to my ear right now.... Why do you think it needs tobe particularly LOUD or particularly directional ???? EVEN BASS will go up a tube if it encounters a tube...!!! Any sound that does enter the tube CAN create a standing wave IF the tube is long enough.... (even easier in an enclosed car) No, of course not! SOUND can enter the tube even if the sound is created several meters away from the tube... Really? YES!! How does a 50 Hz tone get in there? Same way it enters YOUR EARDRUM!! Is there some reason YOU THINK 50Hz wont go down a tube like your ear canal to reach your eardrum???? If so (and we all know IT IS SO) then the same 50Hz source will send sound down ANYTUBE we choose from several meters away.... WHY ARE YOU EVEN QUESTIONING THIS??? IS THAT THE BEST YOU CAN DO???? Sure this analogy 'could' happen in your imagination BUT why then do all the tubes physically made have one end sealed with a plug and the other with the source? They dont! Maybe yours do, if so YOU answer that question! I got LOTS O pictures here with tubes with standing waves with ONE and even BOTH ends of the tubes OPEN! Why are you so narrow minded???? YOUR EARDRUMS ARE AT THE FAR END OF A TUBE, does a This is the most intelligent thing you've actually said. But at what frequencies do the standing waves in my ear canal form? Any 60 Hz modes in there? Unless you had 4 ft long ear canals you would have NO standing waves in your ear canals.... (no NODES or ANTINODES at 60Hz) BUT the reason I brought it up was to prove BASS can (and does) enter ANY TUBE! Gotcha there! you agree??? Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ You've made my point exactly. The sound directly pressurizes the pipe and there are no standing waves at any frequency of interest. And no cancellation at bass frequencies. This same thing happens in a car at bass frequencies. |
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#22
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HIS TESTS FAILED
Soundfreak03 wrote:
Ya you did already get him, you have called his bull**** on EVERY post and yet he still comes back. Unfortunatly he must be arguing out of despiration and not even reading my posts... If he did I think the info Im putting out there is easy for anyone to understand... I cant believe he doesnt..!! I dont think he is stupid, so it must just be he isnt reading well.... that happens sometimes to folks when they loose an arguement, they dont even wanna hear the real story.... BTW good call on him trying to confuse the kiddies, Way too many of the technoid guys hide from the good questions that the non techies ask by using big words to confuse the issue.... I have seen that way too many times in the 30+ years I have been in the audio biz... I hear stories here on RAC as well where a guy walks into a stereo store and he knows good and well the words from the salesman are full of ****....!!! It happens every day! The reason though it still happens is because the bull**** WORKS on most of the folks..... And the salesman are too lazy to learn the truth.. Tom has bull****ted his way into writing for the car stereo magazines, and from thier perspective its darned hard to get writers sometimes, they just have to take what they can get.... Beggars cant be choosers ya know... I have not read most of Toms stuff, but the article about moving the woofer box and it not making a difference AND the article about pollyfill were both articles full of bull**** and nothing else.... Maybe one day he will learn that his corvette is not the only type of car on the road. hell yeah! heck, we move the box 2 or 3 ft in our trunks or the back of our SUVs and it DOES make a difference in our cars... TOM says it doesnt based on his expereince in his CORVETTE, its not easy to imagine 1) his box in that tiny space cant be big enugh to make any bass and 2) if there was a good box in there it would nearly fill the small space so there is NO WAY he could move it around for the tests more then a few inches or so.... NO WONDER HIS TESTS FAILED TO SHOW WHAT WE ALL KNOW IS FACT!! ha ha how can he not see how his tests are flawed....?????????? But atleast this has made more learn more and do some more reseach on standing waves and other fun effects. thats ALWAYS a good thing! Eddie Runner |
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#23
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the
Nousaine wrote:
Using a trunk would only reduced the effects of 'aiming' your woofer. you are backward Tom  Oh I'd already done the research but Eddie hasn't.No Tom, I have been a standing wave fanatic for many years now...Like I already told you we were conna do the tube in our sound room at one time.. You know that! By you saying I dont know anything is just a LAME WAY for you to try to get out from the hole you cornered yourself into.... Otherwise things would have improved when I faced the woofer in different directions. Instead output varied by less than a dB at bass frequencies. in such a smal confined space of your pussy whipped faggot assed CORVETTE you couldnt possibly move a decent box enough to make a difference.... WHY not try it in a MANS CAR or SUV..!! You WILL hear a difference!! ha ha ha You make me laugh Tom... ha ha ha Eddie Runner |
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#24
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the
no bodys perfect....!! ha ha
have you seen my CORVETTE MASHER?? http://tx4x4.com/unimog.html sl2perfect wrote: i like corvettes |
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#26
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there allthe
Nousaine wrote:
it's just a misinformed theory that cannot be replicated with experimental data because 1) Eddie doesn't know how, otherwise he'd already know he's FOS 2) he's afraid to put this theory to the reality test. This whole thread is kind of sad, because it tempts people to waste time worrying about things that just aren't important at low frequencies but may be important to understanding what happens over the full spectrum. This whole thread really is sad. It's pathetic. Eddie is at times a child who gets his kicks out of goading people into circuitous arguments, atritious contests, and all-out mudslinging regardless of wether he's wrong or right. In this case (and most cases, for that matter), Eddie is right. You're wrong. The bad thing is you do have neither the grace or the gonads to bow out like a gentleman, and either admit you're wrong, or that the matter is better left unresolved. Regardless, any ass with a comprehension of simple physics knows that standing waves can and do occur in cars. Any other ass who owns a car knows that moving a box around can change it's response drastically. If there was anything else you and Eddie argued about, I missed it. I've watched Eddie time and time again prove people like you, Richark Clark (and his hoard of coat-tail riding Clarkies), David Navone, and any number of other pompous personalities to be wrong. I no longer feel any particular desire to watch the human tragedy of fallibility unfold. -- Lizard teamROCS #007 / Technical Director / Founding Member *res derelicta* http://www.teamrocs.com/ Save Farscape http://www.watchfarscape.com |
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#27
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all
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#28
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TOM is a FRAUD, revealed!!!
Nousaine wrote:
I refer you to "Acoustics" by Leo Baranek pp 25-32 (great drawing of the tube) and Chapter 10 for further study Eddie. Branch out and learn what standing waves are. Well Tom, I know you had hoped I didnt have this book, and if no one can verify it then you can say anything you want to and CLAIM it is in the book.... I have my copy of Acoustics with me now, and I have scanned some things out of it to show you.... http://www.installer.com/tech/baranek.html Looks like this reference backfired on you .... Try a more obscure book next time... (who woulda thought I had this book from 1954) ha ha ha Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ |
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#29
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the
Nousaine wrote:
When faced with contrary evidence Eddie reverts to shouting and insults. When one is wrong and the reality of the situation fails to support the BS that's the only thing left. No Tom, when I call you names its cause ITS FUNNY! I already nailed you with every thing you tried to say and prove http://www.installer.com/tech/baranek.html I dont understand why your even still here babbling since everyone knows your wrong... Eddie Runner |
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#30
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there allthe
The Lizard wrote:
In this case (and most cases, for that matter), Eddie is right. Thank you Lizzypooh! Eddie |
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#31
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Tom, just another Clarkie
Nousaine wrote:
But Richard Clark has forgotten more about audio and car-audio than Eddie will ever know. Tom is just another Clarkie! |
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#32
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TOM is PREDJUDICED !!
Richard Podsada wrote:
But the majority of this thread I've been reading an argument over a tube, open or closed ended, whatever. Since when is a TUBE a freakin CAR? Your right Richard.... But a TUBE is how the basics of standing waves are taught in school and most physics books... Tom is still at this basic level (almost) so we are trying to get this basic level of TUBES irorned out before we go any deeper... We cant go any deeper untill we know Tom can keep up... ;-) Right now I dont think he can.. When I moved my sub enclosure around the trunk of my 2001 Focus SE, I *did* get a pretty large difference. Actually, flipping it on it's back (angled box) so the driver points to the top left corner of the trunk made the most difference and sounded the best (TO ME.) Tom will tell you IT CANT HAPPEN! ha ha ha |
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#33
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TOM is PREDJUDICED !!
Am I the only one that read him write that he did this test many times over
the years in a lot of different cars??? I'm not siding with anyone here, but the only point that anyone can say against Nousaine is "you only did it in a Corvette" which is BS. He also said that it has the same interior volume as an Integra hatchback which all of you are conveniently forgetting. Please read his entire posts. This thread was pretty interesting until everyone focused on what type of car he owns. Paul Vina "Richard Podsada" wrote in message ... (Nousaine) wrote in : Certainly there has to be a source at the open end of the tube! BUT, the source doesnt have to SEAL UP the open end, the source CAN seal it up like in the picture of the KUNTZ TUBE, but it doesnt have to!! Excuse my ignorance, I don't have nearly the experience of either of you in this field. But the majority of this thread I've been reading an argument over a tube, open or closed ended, whatever. Since when is a TUBE a freakin CAR? A tube doesn't have back and front seats and people in the way of the wave. A tube isn't generally rectangular in shape. A tube isn't made of several materials at once (carpet, steel, plastic). A TUBE only serves it's purpose to prove a THEORETICAL point. But since when does a CAR behave like a f'in TUBE? Unlike your average TUBE, There are really NO constants between two vehicles of different makes. In that light, so how can ONE test in ONE corvette prove true in a HUMMER or a FOCUS or ALL OTHER CARS? GIVE ME A BREAK! HA HA HA HA... When I moved my sub enclosure around the trunk of my 2001 Focus SE, I *did* get a pretty large difference. Actually, flipping it on it's back (angled box) so the driver points to the top left corner of the trunk made the most difference and sounded the best (TO ME.) -- Richard www.oblius.com |
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#34
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TOM is a FRAUD, revealed!!!
"Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... Nousaine wrote: I refer you to "Acoustics" by Leo Baranek pp 25-32 (great drawing of the tube) and Chapter 10 for further study Eddie. Branch out and learn what standing waves are. Well Tom, I know you had hoped I didnt have this book, and if no one can verify it then you can say anything you want to and CLAIM it is in the book.... I have my copy of Acoustics with me now, and I have scanned some things out of it to show you.... http://www.installer.com/tech/baranek.html Looks like this reference backfired on you .... Try a more obscure book next time... (who woulda thought I had this book from 1954) ha ha ha Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ ROFL! |
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#35
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all
I kind of understand the rebellion against authority /SNIP/ What authority? |
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#36
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TOM is a FRAUD, revealed!!!
i have nothing to quote lizard, but i just want to say that i believe
eddie is right. -- sl2perfect ------------------------------------------------------------------------ CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online! View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/vbb2/sh...hreadid=151019 |
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#37
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TOM is PREDJUDICED !!
No, thats definatly not the only point!! THE BIG POINT is that Tom says IT CANT HAPPEN AT ALL in any car! Another point is that Tom says if it does happen we are mistaken and its HIGHS not BASS that we hear the difference in when we turn a woofer box backward! From what I gather, he says it does happen, but only at at frequncies from 60Hz and up. I don't know I haven't done any tests. I *do* disagree about what he thinks bass is though. I would call anything up to 120Hz or so bass. Tom thinks bass stops at 60Hz, or at least it sounds that way in his posts. Whatever. Just cause he says it doesnt mean its true! If he took the time to measure the internal volume of an Integra and a Corvette I would believe him if for no other reason than I haven't measured it for myself to dispute. If you haven't either then I would leave the point alone until you do. I CAN FIT my fat ass easily in the Integra and can only BARELY squeeze into a VETT, plus the integra has a back seat and the Vette doesnt ! and the VETT has almost no cargo space and the Integra has a HUGE space in the back!! The shape pf the space has nothing to do with the internal volume of that space, you should know that better than anyone, Eddie. Just because you don't fit in the space easily doesn't mean there isn't space in there. SO THINK PAUL! Dont let his LYING words influence you! ha ha ha Believe me, niether of you has done much, in my opinion, to sway me one way or the other. It's hard to read the facts with all of the mudslinging going on. But it *is* pretty funny sometimes. If you believe all the crap he is making up ! JUST LIKE HE DOES IN HIS MAGAZINE ARTICLES! (worthless crap) I can't say if either one of you is making crap up as I do not have enough knowledge of the subject to be able to tell. One thing I *can* say is that Tom has tried a little harder to keep it a civil and more professional discussion. Think Paul, Think! You know me Eddie. I'm always thinking. Occasionally I'm wrong, but I'm always thinking! If nothing else, Eddie, you keep RAC entertaining! ;-) Paul Vina |
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#38
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Tom, changes the story AGAIN! and acts like he was there all the
Eddie Runner wrote:
Nousaine wrote: When faced with contrary evidence Eddie reverts to shouting and insults. When one is wrong and the reality of the situation fails to support the BS that's the only thing left. No Tom, when I call you names its cause ITS FUNNY! I already nailed you with every thing you tried to say and prove http://www.installer.com/tech/baranek.htm What's funny is that you went out of your way to come up with a copy of Baranek; scanned some relevant parts, which shows a closed tube, and yet you still claim you're right. But you haven't provided any real evidence or data that shows you're right. You are left to hurling insults because you have no data that supports your case. I dont understand why your even still here babbling since everyone knows your wrong... Eddie Runner Only those who are as unaware as you. |
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#39
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TOM is PREDJUDICED !!
Eddie Runner wrote:
Paul Vina wrote: Am I the only one that read him write that he did this test many times over the years in a lot of different cars??? He has said that , but if so why does he keep using the crappy little Corvette as a reference then?? (since so many of us have a problem with it) AND, over the 30 years (almost) that I have been installing, how many 1000s of times do you think I have turned a box around for a customer?? And how many times have you documented performance with a reasonable set of repeatable measurements. And how many of those can we find on your web-site? Its probably 100 times the amount of *TESTS* that Tommy Boy has done. I've done this particular experiment in every car that I've ever used for tests and then in a couple more. These include a CRX, Sabb 99, Bonneville, Spirit, Aerostar, Z28, 3 Corvettes and full sized X-cab pick-ups. I'm not siding with anyone here, but the only point that anyone can say against Nousaine is "you only did it in a Corvette" which is BS. No, thats definatly not the only point!! THE BIG POINT is that Tom says IT CANT HAPPEN AT ALL in any car! No; I'm saying that it DOESN'T happen below the lowest axial mode of the space whether its a car, a room or a studio. And you haven't shown any data that proves it does. Another point is that Tom says if it does happen we are mistaken and its HIGHS not BASS that we hear the difference in when we turn a woofer box backward! Actually that's often the case. The other thing that happens with anecdotes is that levels aren't matched and programs aren't controlled. I've watched people listen, turn the volume down and then move a box and afterward put in a different cd and just turn up the gain indiscriminately to check the sound. Indeed this type of 'comparison' seems to be more common than not. Customers simply are generally unaware of common human listening bias and many salespeople and installers take full advantage of it. Sometimes I think they are also happily fooling themselves too. Eddie seems to be this way; it seems unlikely that anybody could be that stupid and that deceptive at the same time. He also said that it has the same interior volume as an Integra hatchback which all of you are conveniently forgetting. Just cause he says it doesnt mean its true! But it is. How many interior transfer function measurements have you done? Why can't Ifind any of them on your web-site? I CAN FIT my fat ass easily in the Integra and can only BARELY squeeze into a VETT, plus the integra has a back seat and the Vette doesnt ! and the VETT has almost no cargo space and the Integra has a HUGE space in the back!! This is utter bull****. The Corvette has 25 cubic feet of cargo space that is fully open to the interior. The actual acoustical size of the Corvette interior is quite similar to a Z28 or Integra or any other compact or subcompact vehicle. There's also 3 feet of movement area front to back and 4 feet side to side. SO THINK PAUL! Dont let his LYING words influence you! ha ha ha Please read his entire posts. This thread was pretty interesting until everyone focused on what type of car he owns. If you believe all the crap he is making up ! JUST LIKE HE DOES IN HIS MAGAZINE ARTICLES! (worthless crap) Think Paul, Think! Eddie Runner http://www.installer.com/tech/ Think Eddie, Think! |
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#40
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TOM is a FRAUD, revealed!!!
Eddie Runner wrote:
Well Tom, I know you had hoped I didnt have this book, and if no one can verify it then you can say anything you want to and CLAIM it is in the book.... I have my copy of Acoustics with me now, and I have scanned some things out of it to show you.... http://www.installer.com/tech/baranek.html Oh man...buuuuuurn.... -- Lizard teamROCS #007 / Technical Director / Founding Member *res derelicta* http://www.teamrocs.com/ Save Farscape http://www.watchfarscape.com |
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