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Marc Brown
 
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Default 5.1 surround headphones - Need advice

The need is upon me to find a headphones-based solution for my PC-oriented
5.1 experience. Fortunately, there appear to be a variety of options
these days. Unfortunately, there are noteworthy obstacles to anything
approaching perfection.

First let me get one item out of the way. Dolby has an algorithm which
simulates surround with normal stereo headphones. This is not what I am
after. Some people say it is good, some say it is not so good, or doesn't
work at all. There are headphones with real surround so I choose not to
even consider this Dolby simulated surround option.

Zalman makes a pair of surround headphones which are very common. They
are reported as being uncomfortable and drowned-out sounding. They also
evidently to not cover the ears, which is a feature I would very much
like to have.

Sony has at least three surround-sound headphone models: MDR-DS3000,
MDR-DS5000 and MDR-DS8000. The differences between these models are
unknown. It is also unknown whether they use real surround (with the
multiple speakers per ear that implies) or the simulated approach. What
I do know is that they are wireless, and at least the MDR-DS3000 can be
used for 20 hours between charges. It is difficult to determine whether
or not they are designed to cover the ears. (See an image he
http://www.audiocubes.com/product_in...roducts_id=565 ).
Generally, headphones meant to cover the ears are oval-shaped, and these
appear more round. The price ($170) approaches my upper limit, but if
these headphones don't have any noteworthy drawbacks, they may be the
winner.

Pioneer has a model which can be imported. The SE-DIR1000C. Judging by
the price, the frequency response listed (10 to 24Khz) is believable.
But apart from the excessive price, these headphones also appear to be
the round variety.

Finally we come to the Kinyo KY-100. These are almost as cheap ($60 or
so) as the Zalman headphones. The sound quality is reported as being
good. They're also said to be comfortable, and they are clearly designed
to cover the ears. However, every review I've seen of these headphones
mentions the hiss audible when using them in 5.1 mode. Evidently, the
headphones come with a cheap little preamp (see the images at Newegg:
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProduc...01-016&depa=10
). Considering the lack of hiss in non-5.1 mode, it is perhaps safe to
suggest that the headphones themselves are not generating the audible
hiss. It is probably the amp. If there could be a way of either fixing
the hiss or substituting the amp with something higher quality, then
perhaps these headphones would turn out to be the ones to get. This is
the particular item I am hoping somebody will be willing to comment on.
Judging by the images, would replacing the amp be a reasonable
possibility?

Lastly, I have to mention that I would strongly prefer not having to use
any USB-based headphones, for various reasons.

Thanks in advance!
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hank alrich
 
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Default 5.1 surround headphones - Need advice

How does 5.1 via headphones work at all? How does a pair of drivers
right at one's ears simulate distributed speakers with localization
cues, and so forth?

Not a flame. (I am fully capable of those. g) I am curious.
Counterintuitive comes right to mind.

--
ha
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Bob Cain
 
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Default 5.1 surround headphones - Need advice

hank alrich wrote:

How does 5.1 via headphones work at all? How does a pair of drivers
right at one's ears simulate distributed speakers with localization
cues, and so forth?

Not a flame. (I am fully capable of those. g) I am curious.
Counterintuitive comes right to mind.

--
ha


Imagine that you put little tiny microphones right at the
entrance to your ear canals. Binaural. Then sitting in the
sweet spot you record an impulse from each speaker and
record what arrives at each ear. That will be the impulse
response of your HRTF to each source. It doesn't have to be
your particular HRTF, they are more interchangable than
seems obvious.

Now take your 5.1 speaker feeds, the show or the music, and
convolve each feed with the pair of impulse responses you
measured from the corresponding speaker position. You will
get a left and right channel for each of the feeds. Sum
them all up and present them to the left and right channel
of your phones and you will hear a very good simulation of
the system you measured. This can be refined further by
taking into account the impulse responses of the headphones
at those same little microphones.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
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Tommi
 
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Default 5.1 surround headphones - Need advice


"hank alrich" wrote in message
.. .
How does 5.1 via headphones work at all? How does a pair of drivers
right at one's ears simulate distributed speakers with localization
cues, and so forth?



A lot of folks have been pretty sceptical about the whole 5.1 via
headphones -thing(myself included), but from what I've heard from some guys
who were at the AES lectures, they were quite stunned about how well it
actually works.







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Scott Dorsey
 
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Default 5.1 surround headphones - Need advice

Tommi wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message
. ..
How does 5.1 via headphones work at all? How does a pair of drivers
right at one's ears simulate distributed speakers with localization
cues, and so forth?


A lot of folks have been pretty sceptical about the whole 5.1 via
headphones -thing(myself included), but from what I've heard from some guys
who were at the AES lectures, they were quite stunned about how well it
actually works.


Imagine a room with six speakers in it and a dummy head. You play signal
back through the speakers, and record it through the dummy head. The overall
effect through headphones is surprisingly close to being in a room with the
speakers (even if it's not very much like being in the hall where the recording
was made).

You can fake this with DSP, using an impulse response for the room and then
an impulse response for your head (or an idealized head). The Lake DSP
guys pioneered doing it, and their system worked quite well at an AES show
a few years back, though at the expense of a huge amount of computational
power being needed.

Back in the seventies, a couple folks made "quadrophonic" headphones, that
had rear channel drivers that were baffled to have a response that sounded
like they were coming from behind you. This was an attempt to model the
effects of the head and ears but not the room. It was not a good idea.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Marc Brown
 
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Default 5.1 surround headphones - Need advice

Eric F wrote in message . ..

They are all "simulated" surround. The models you all list are all
like that


Even the Kinyo KY-100? Here is an article which seems to be saying that
each ear cup has three separate speakers:

http://www.gameclubcentral.com/modul...print&sid=2329

I did suspect that the Sony models merely simulated the effect, though.
Disappointing to learn it is so.

The Dolby
licensed "Dolby Headphone" is much superior to all contenders,
including the Sony headphones.


I'm using Sennheiser headphones now. I do like them, even though they
inexplicably seem to be really weak with highs (model HD-265). If there
was a free, convenient way of experiencing Dolby Headphone audio with
them, I would certainly give it a try. (Such as perhaps an MP3.) But
even if it works, I'd need to figure out a hardware solution for the
Dolby Headphone dsp work, because I can't have that process sapping my
CPU.

I highly recommend you wait for the Pioneer SE-DIR800C headphones to
be released into retail in the US (May-June) and you pick up a pair of
those. They're supposed to produce a superior surround experience,
even compared to their older, more expensive 1000C. They should ~
$300 street price.


Do these headphones cover the ears? Very important to me, for a price
like that.
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Bob Cain
 
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Default 5.1 surround headphones - Need advice

Marc Brown wrote:

Eric F wrote in message . ..

They are all "simulated" surround. The models you all list are all
like that



Even the Kinyo KY-100? Here is an article which seems to be saying that
each ear cup has three separate speakers:

http://www.gameclubcentral.com/modul...print&sid=2329


Frankly I think multiple speakers in the same cup is just a
gimmick. There is no way that speakers in that close a
proximity, without HRTF effects, can give any directionality
to the sound.


I did suspect that the Sony models merely simulated the effect, though.
Disappointing to learn it is so.


I doubt you would say that if you heard it done right. Far
more realistic than what could be achieved by spacing tiny,
close up speakers.

But
even if it works, I'd need to figure out a hardware solution for the
Dolby Headphone dsp work, because I can't have that process sapping my
CPU.


You're right about that and I'm pretty sure Lake and Dolby
have a hardware version.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
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