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#1
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it
is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? TIA ==steven |
#2
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
"Steven Liburd" wrote ...
I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? 1. Use an appropriate recording level to begin with. It should be easy enough to estimate where the "loudest" parts of the tracks are by visual inspection. Set the recording level to 3dB below the playback peak (to allow for surprises). 2. Normalize Then "normalize" the resulting file to 0dBFS (or whatever your preference). 3. Compress (optional?) You may find that even that doesn't sound as "loud" as modern CDs because of the notorious use of heavy compression on digital recordings released these days. You can try compressing your files (before converting to MP3, etc.) if you wish. |
#3
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:27:19 GMT, Steven Liburd wrote:
I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? You need to leave some headroom to avoid cliping. How could there be a "standard gain"? It depends on the levels of your equipment and how worn out your records are. |
#4
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:50:13 -0800, Richard Crowley wrote:
"Steven Liburd" wrote ... I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? 1. Use an appropriate recording level to begin with. It should be easy enough to estimate where the "loudest" parts of the tracks are by visual inspection. Set the recording level to 3dB below the playback peak (to allow for surprises). Make sure the stylus drop wasn't recorded (cut it out if necessary), and run a declick filter before normalizing. There's little point in reserving 10db of dynamic range for the clicks and pops. |
#5
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
In article , AZ Nomad wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:50:13 -0800, Richard Crowley wrote: "Steven Liburd" wrote ... I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? 1. Use an appropriate recording level to begin with. It should be easy enough to estimate where the "loudest" parts of the tracks are by visual inspection. Set the recording level to 3dB below the playback peak (to allow for surprises). Make sure the stylus drop wasn't recorded (cut it out if necessary), and run a declick filter before normalizing. There's little point in reserving 10db of dynamic range for the clicks and pops. I don't fully understand what he is referring to, but its all about levels. On my stereo system, I have to turn the volume control full up to listen to vinyl, and way down for anything else. Maybe its compression the question is about ? greg |
#6
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
GregS wrote:
In article , AZ Nomad wrote: On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:50:13 -0800, Richard Crowley wrote: "Steven Liburd" wrote ... I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? 1. Use an appropriate recording level to begin with. It should be easy enough to estimate where the "loudest" parts of the tracks are by visual inspection. Set the recording level to 3dB below the playback peak (to allow for surprises). Make sure the stylus drop wasn't recorded (cut it out if necessary), and run a declick filter before normalizing. There's little point in reserving 10db of dynamic range for the clicks and pops. I don't fully understand what he is referring to, but its all about levels. On my stereo system, I have to turn the volume control full up to listen to vinyl, and way down for anything else. Maybe its compression the question is about ? Needing to turn it 'full up' means your phono preamp isn't working right, and/or your room is too large for your speakers/amp LPs tend not to be as loud as modern CDs because digital dynamic range compression and limiting tools weren't around when LPs ruled...and the super-loud signals put on CDs these days aren't easily transcribed to vinyl even now. ___ -S "As human beings, we understand the world through simile, analogy, metaphor, narrative and, sometimes, claymation." - B. Mason |
#7
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:09:24 GMT, GregS wrote:
In article , AZ Nomad wrote: On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 09:50:13 -0800, Richard Crowley wrote: "Steven Liburd" wrote ... I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? 1. Use an appropriate recording level to begin with. It should be easy enough to estimate where the "loudest" parts of the tracks are by visual inspection. Set the recording level to 3dB below the playback peak (to allow for surprises). Make sure the stylus drop wasn't recorded (cut it out if necessary), and run a declick filter before normalizing. There's little point in reserving 10db of dynamic range for the clicks and pops. I don't fully understand what he is referring to, but its all about levels. On my stereo system, I have to turn the volume control full up to listen to vinyl, and way down for anything else. Maybe its compression the question is about ? I wasn't talking about compression, just gain. If 0db is the peak level your recording medium can handle and you record vynyl, you're very likely to have clicks and pops going up to 0db. If loudest music level is down at -12db and you run a normalization filter, you're going to get very poor results. It'll see the pops at 0db, and do nothing. If you filter out the pops, then the normalizing filter has a chance to bring the -12db music up to 0db. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
In article ,
AZ Nomad wrote: I wasn't talking about compression, just gain. If 0db is the peak level your recording medium can handle and you record vynyl, you're very likely to have clicks and pops going up to 0db. If loudest music level is down at -12db and you run a normalization filter, you're going to get very poor results. It'll see the pops at 0db, and do nothing. If you filter out the pops, then the normalizing filter has a chance to bring the -12db music up to 0db. The approach I'd recommend is: - Digitize at a level low enough to ensure some amount of headroom above the loudest peak present in the music itself... avoid clipping the signal. - Edit out the needle-drop and end-of-album pops and thunks - If necessary, use automatic or manual pop-and-scratch-removal processing to clean up the signal. - Run a "ReplayGain" analysis of the music. This algorithm attempts to determine the average loudness of a piece of music, based both on the amplitude and on the frequency content. Software which implements this algorithm can recommend both a gain adjustment (to result in a fairly consistent loudness) and also determine the actual peak value found in the audio. - Do a gain normalization, based on the ReplayGain adjustment recommendation, being careful not to increase the gain so much that the peak value found by the ReplayGain analysis would reach digital full-scale. This ought to result in CD-Rs which have a fairly consistent average loudness. They're still likely to sound quieter than current commercial popular-music CDs, which (as others have noted) tend to be overcompressed until all the juice has been squeezed out and left on the mastering-room floor. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#9
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 12:50:10 -0800, Dave Platt wrote:
In article , AZ Nomad wrote: I wasn't talking about compression, just gain. If 0db is the peak level your recording medium can handle and you record vynyl, you're very likely to have clicks and pops going up to 0db. If loudest music level is down at -12db and you run a normalization filter, you're going to get very poor results. It'll see the pops at 0db, and do nothing. If you filter out the pops, then the normalizing filter has a chance to bring the -12db music up to 0db. The approach I'd recommend is: - Digitize at a level low enough to ensure some amount of headroom above the loudest peak present in the music itself... avoid clipping the signal. - Edit out the needle-drop and end-of-album pops and thunks - If necessary, use automatic or manual pop-and-scratch-removal processing to clean up the signal. - Run a "ReplayGain" analysis of the music. This algorithm attempts to determine the average loudness of a piece of music, based both on the amplitude and on the frequency content. Software which implements this algorithm can recommend both a gain adjustment (to result in a fairly consistent loudness) and also determine the actual peak value found in the audio. - Do a gain normalization, based on the ReplayGain adjustment recommendation, being careful not to increase the gain so much that the peak value found by the ReplayGain analysis would reach digital full-scale. This ought to result in CD-Rs which have a fairly consistent average loudness. They're still likely to sound quieter than current commercial popular-music CDs, which (as others have noted) tend to be overcompressed until all the juice has been squeezed out and left on the mastering-room floor. That is pretty much what I do. On worn out records, I usually do treble boost atarting at 4khz or so. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
GregS wrote:
I don't fully understand what he is referring to, but its all about levels. On my stereo system, I have to turn the volume control full up to listen to vinyl, and way down for anything else. Maybe its compression the question is about ? Um, you are running your turntable into a phono input ? Phono cartridges have a nominal output of several thousandths of a volt whereas CDs are usually around 2v. Also Tape Outs on phono-preamps or amplifiers are usually around half a volt, versus 2v for a CD player. geoff |
#11
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
"GregS" wrote...
I don't fully understand what he is referring to, but its all about levels. On my stereo system, I have to turn the volume control full up to listen to vinyl, and way down for anything else. We have been assuming that you have your turntable plugged into an input designated as "phono". If you have it plugged into anything else, then it is a wonder that you can hear anything at all. If you don't have a phono input on your receiver, then you need an RIAA phono preamp to bring up the volume to the same "line level" as any of your other sources. |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
Steven Liburd wrote:
I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Yes. The CD's that are louder than the vinyl are more processed than the vinyl. This is caused by more processing equipment and less skilled staff pr. capita. The technical term is "the loudness race" ... my opinion is that sound quality suffers and that quite much vinyl sounds very good not because the technology itself is good, but simply because less has been done. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? Mileage varies plenty on this, my strategy is to lower the recording volume enough to record the loudest click unclipped and then "fix single click" those large clicks that are louder than the audio, and then to normalize the vinyl to -2.5 dB. That makes it approximately as loud as well recorded CD's, at least when it is about acoustic music. ==steven Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#13
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
AZ Nomad wrote:
I wasn't talking about compression, just gain. If 0db is the peak level your recording medium can handle and you record vynyl, you're very likely to have clicks and pops going up to 0db. If loudest music level is down at -12db and you run a normalization filter, you're going to get very poor results. Which is why you use a suitable declicker and fix single click the large ones. It'll see the pops at 0db, and do nothing. If you filter out the pops, then the normalizing filter has a chance to bring the -12db music up to 0db. As already mentioned 2.5 dB matches similar digital recordings well. It requires multiband compression and intentional clipping to get audio as loud as some current CD's are, and vinyl would end up sounding just as bad if it was done. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
Steven Liburd wrote:
I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? TIA ==steven First of all, I want to thank everyone for the replies. It's given me some insight that I didn't have before. I came to the conclusion that the difference in volume is most likely due to my equipment - the phono preamp probably doesn't boost the signal to the level where it would match that being outputted from the CD player. Or, it could just be that the CDs are burned a little 'hot' as has been suggested. Probably a bit of both. Let me give a few more details on what I'm using... I've got a Behringer UCA202 - it takes output from the Tape/Out jacks and feeds it through a USB port to the computer. I'm using Audacity to capture the signal on the computer. I've played around with the filtering so that unwanted sounds are mostly removed. There aren't too many of those, anyway...I've always been a little fussy about my vinyl...8-) The initial results have been pretty good. The reason I'm interested in getting my CDs to match the level of my commercial CDs is that I like to mix my own CDs, so I of course would like the level to be consistent regardless of source. Or, if I put a mix of commercial and converted CDs into the changer I don't have to fiddle with the volume every time a new disk is started. I have one LP that I also have in CD format, so I'm going play around with the pair to see if I can come up with a baseline for what I need to do. If it looks like I can't get the levels to match without sacrificing some sound quality in the LP conversion, then I'll just have to live with manually changing the volume when needed (oh, bother!). I'll let you know how it's going. Feel free to pass along any more tips you might have. Thanks again. ==steven |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
"Steven Liburd" wrote ...
The initial results have been pretty good. The reason I'm interested in getting my CDs to match the level of my commercial CDs is that I like to mix my own CDs, so I of course would like the level to be consistent regardless of source. Or, if I put a mix of commercial and converted CDs into the changer I don't have to fiddle with the volume every time a new disk is started. I have one LP that I also have in CD format, so I'm going play around with the pair to see if I can come up with a baseline for what I need to do. Don't assume that establishing levels for that particular recording will necessarily apply to others. Black vinyl wasn't like CDs where there is an absolute Full Scale beyond which there is zero headroom. Discs were cut with levels that were all over the map, IME. It is almost like setting levels for a live recording, except that you have a "preview" function(! :-) If you have a "feel" for the average levels of your CDs, you can "eyeball" the levels in Audacity (or whatever) to match. However, don't be surprised if the levels don't "sound" as loud even when you normalize to 0dBFS. You may need to apply significant compression to the LP tracks to approach what modern popular music CDs sound like. |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
Steven Liburd wrote: I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? There can be no standard amplification since (to begin with) different pickup cartridges have different sensitivities. Also, the recording itself may be made quieter in order to slightly prolong playing time and there's no telling what the maximum amplitude on any recording may be. So that's 3 reasons it's not practical. You'll have to 'normalise' them yourself. Graham |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
Steven Liburd wrote:
Steven Liburd wrote: I came to the conclusion that the difference in volume is most likely due to my equipment - the phono preamp probably doesn't boost the signal to the level where it would match that being outputted from the CD player. This is correct, your phono preamp has about 1 volt as taret peak voltage and your CD player 2 volts, which is 6 dB louder. Or, it could just be that the CDs are burned a little 'hot' as has been suggested. Probably a bit of both. The above is in terms of peak voltage, not in terms of average loudness, because of the difference in mastering the perceived loudness difference is more like 10 to 12 dB, or - if aligned to identical peak level and pop music a la spice girls assumed - 6 dB. Let me give a few more details on what I'm using... I've got a Behringer UCA202 - it takes output from the Tape/Out jacks and feeds it through a USB port to the computer. I'm using Audacity to capture the signal on the computer. I've played around with the filtering so that unwanted sounds are mostly removed. There aren't too many of those, anyway...I've always been a little fussy about my vinyl...8-) The initial results have been pretty good. The reason I'm interested in getting my CDs to match the level of my commercial CDs is that I like to mix my own CDs, so I of course would like the level to be consistent regardless of source. That is plain not obtainable. You can align your cd's made from vinyl reasonably well by normalizing to -2.5 dB ref 0 dB FS. Or, if I put a mix of commercial and converted CDs into the changer I don't have to fiddle with the volume every time a new disk is started. Mix those with Spice Girls or Avril Lavigne and those will be .. at a guess ... 8 dB louder. I have one LP that I also have in CD format, so I'm going play around with the pair to see if I can come up with a baseline for what I need to do. Won't help you, reissues may be totally remastered and squashed to bricks. I have a new record that had a parallel release on vinyl and CD. The vinyl version has great sound and dynamics, the CD is just another row of bricks. Boooring ..... which is why I only rarely buy pop and rock CD's these days. Classical ... occasionally, preferably boxes with one or more feet of one composers ouvres. There are not enough bad classical recordings around, so there is always enough good recordings of good ensembles in the boxes to warrant the box price and still be a bargain. If it looks like I can't get the levels to match without sacrificing some sound quality in the LP conversion, You can't. And it is the vinyl that is OK and the CD's that are broken. ==steven Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#18
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "GregS" wrote... I don't fully understand what he is referring to, but its all about levels. On my stereo system, I have to turn the volume control full up to listen to vinyl, and way down for anything else. We have been assuming that you have your turntable plugged into an input designated as "phono". If you have it plugged into anything else, then it is a wonder that you can hear anything at all. If you don't have a phono input on your receiver, then you need an RIAA phono preamp to bring up the volume to the same "line level" as any of your other sources. Not to mention getting the right equalization. It would be over-emphasized treble and noise, and no bass. |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
"AZ Nomad" wrote in message ... On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:27:19 GMT, Steven Liburd wrote: I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. Is it me, my equipment, or is there a standard gain that I should apply to files converted from analog to digital before I burn them to CD? You need to leave some headroom to avoid cliping. How could there be a "standard gain"? It depends on the levels of your equipment and how worn out your records are. Worn records should not affect the audio level unless pops blow the normalization. I've found some nasty pops on brand new records. |
#20
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... [snip] don't be surprised if the levels don't "sound" as loud even when you normalize to 0dBFS. You may need to apply significant compression to the LP tracks to approach what modern popular music CDs sound like. Ewww... why would anyone do that to their vinyl transcriptions? |
#21
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
"Karl" wrote ...
"Richard Crowley" wrote ... [snip] don't be surprised if the levels don't "sound" as loud even when you normalize to 0dBFS. You may need to apply significant compression to the LP tracks to approach what modern popular music CDs sound like. Ewww... why would anyone do that to their vinyl transcriptions? The OP said that he wanted them as "loud" as his CD- sourced tracks. Seems unlikely that will happen without compression equivalent to the CDs. |
#22
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
STEVEN LIBURD:
I am experimenting with converting my vinyl collection to CD. Perhaps it is my equipment, but it seems that the volume level of my vinyl is somewhat lower than my CDs. You are trying to compare two analog signals. Analog signals from the turntable and analog signals from the CD Player are subject to many analog parameters: cartridge sensitivity, phono preamp gain, CDP DAC and output stages. Also two CDP's can have different analog output levels for the same disc; obviously, digital output levels are exactly the same. Gianluca |
#23
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... "Karl" wrote ... "Richard Crowley" wrote ... [snip] don't be surprised if the levels don't "sound" as loud even when you normalize to 0dBFS. You may need to apply significant compression to the LP tracks to approach what modern popular music CDs sound like. Ewww... why would anyone do that to their vinyl transcriptions? The OP said that he wanted them as "loud" as his CD- sourced tracks. Seems unlikely that will happen without compression equivalent to the CDs. Yeah, I understand. But I assume he has a volume control. I wonder if he wants them as loud once he understands the trade-offs. |
#24
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
Karl wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... The OP said that he wanted them as "loud" as his CD- sourced tracks. Seems unlikely that will happen without compression equivalent to the CDs. Yeah, I understand. But I assume he has a volume control. I wonder if he wants them as loud once he understands the trade-offs. I haven't seen him confirm that he does understand them, but I may have read carelessly. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#25
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
Peter Larsen wrote:
Karl wrote: "Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... The OP said that he wanted them as "loud" as his CD- sourced tracks. Seems unlikely that will happen without compression equivalent to the CDs. Yeah, I understand. But I assume he has a volume control. I wonder if he wants them as loud once he understands the trade-offs. I haven't seen him confirm that he does understand them, but I may have read carelessly. To quote myself from earlier in this thread (I'm the OP): "If it looks like I can't get the levels to match without sacrificing some sound quality in the LP conversion, then I'll just have to live with manually changing the volume when needed" ==steven |
#26
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 17:37:18 GMT, Steven Liburd wrote:
Peter Larsen wrote: Karl wrote: "Richard Crowley" wrote in message ... The OP said that he wanted them as "loud" as his CD- sourced tracks. Seems unlikely that will happen without compression equivalent to the CDs. Yeah, I understand. But I assume he has a volume control. I wonder if he wants them as loud once he understands the trade-offs. I haven't seen him confirm that he does understand them, but I may have read carelessly. To quote myself from earlier in this thread (I'm the OP): "If it looks like I can't get the levels to match without sacrificing some sound quality in the LP conversion, then I'll just have to live with manually changing the volume when needed" If you can only accept exact matching, that may be true. Otherwise, if you declick, perhaps apply some EQ, and then normalize, you can get within 3db without sacrificing any sound quality. |
#27
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Vinyl vs. CD audio level
Steven Liburd wrote:
To quote myself from earlier in this thread (I'm the OP): Thank you for supplementing Steven, "If it looks like I can't get the levels to match without sacrificing some sound quality in the LP conversion, then I'll just have to live with manually changing the volume when needed" ime you will have to, or to put it all on a household server and align average levels with suitable software, Audition no doubt is not the only program that can help you with this. ==steven Kind regards Peter Larsen |
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