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  #41   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Default Trotskyvarius out-of-tone.


"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...
Arny Krueger wrote:



Given Singh's abysmal technical skill level and the well-known
methodologies
for speaker design and evaluation that he avoided, it's probable that
Jupiter speakers have one or more horrendous response anomalies.


That's blatantly false.


Prove it with unbiased support for your claim.

The Europas are one of the most neutral
speakers I have heard at ANY price.


Key words: "I have heard" coming from the designer of self-same speakers.

Because you have no Christian
morals, Krueger, you have no problem perpetuating blatant falsehoods.


Ironic Singh, coming from a person with no discernable ethics of *any* kind.



  #42   Report Post  
trotsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bob Morion's been firing up the crack pipe again.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky wrote:

Yes, he actually designs speakers.
You do not.
You threw a couple Chinese drivers in a box, and pronounced yourself
lucky.



Sure, because I'm honest.



No you are not. At least not with yourself.



So I figure you're Larry, Bob is Moe, and Mickey is Curly. Do you agree?




Speakers are very much like guitars or violins - you cannot slap
something together and get great sound.



How does "great sound" equate to "stomp"?


Not as a first time builder.
I've never seen it done. There's a reason people are apprentices to
master craftsmen for years before building such insturments.



And let's not forget the telescopes. If you're peeping through
celebrities' windows do you refer to it as "gazing at the stars"?




As they say, the devil's in the details. Little things like custom
crossovers(every design requires tweaking here - no exceptions),



You're right about one thing: the devil *is* in the details. For
example, you seem to have glossed over the detail of what experience you
have in this area. I claim that you have none.


baffles
and internal bracing(huge with a speaker if you want the port to do
anything other than "chuff" at you)



You've bought into marketing hype, Joseph, or even worse, "conventional
wisdom."


- the specific type of material,
how you mount the speakers,(you are using a proper gasket and machine
screws? Let's hope you aren't just slapping it together with drywall
screws) the shape of the port, and even tiny things like what exact
glue and varnish(if wood) you use.



What would happen if you used drywall screws--would your hair catch on
fire? Also, could you explain in detail how you use machine screws in
wood? (I use T-nuts for the woofers, which utilized machine screws, but
I'm interested in your Three Stooges version.)




The list goes on and on.

If you really want to learn how to make excellent speakers then
do yourself a huge favor and study and/or work at a major speaker
manufacturer for a couple of years to learn some of the secrets
and techniques.



Mass produced speakers are part of the problem. In fact, you're
contradicting yourself because in the beginning of your post you were
referring to handmade "instruments."



You can either slap somethig together and be Kia - fine cars but
nothing special or you can learn to do it correctly and make a
Honda, which is built to much higher standards in every single
way.



Uh oh, looks like we shifted gears to the car analogy. Don't you want
to compare the process to a Tarantino script?



Let me make it plain: the Europa is outstanding, in a field where the
competition is somewhat fierce.



So far, only your opinions. Have you actually done a side-by-side
test with other speakers using other people?




I've listened to more speakers than you will in your entire lifetime.
But you aren't the target audience, Joseph, you're Tannoy's target
audience. Why you're not saving for a pair of Joseph Audios is beyond me.




The Subterfuge subwoofer is just plain the most tonally accurate
subwoofer I have ever heard, at any price point.



Oh - now you are really beginning to believe your own marketing.
If you've only been looking at the subs you could find at Circuit City,
then I could imagine that you might think that.

OTOH, at your prices, there are subs what will guaranteed stomp on
yours ten times over.




"Stomp" doesn't exactly imply finesse, or credibility. It sounds like
you're coming from a car stereo mentality.




But how would you know, Greg? You've never designed a speaker.
You did what a hobbyist would do on a rainy afternoon, nothing more.



Oh, so it's impossible to design an exceptional sounding pair of
speakers in a short amount of time?



The sad fact is that it IS impossible. Too many small variables.




When did you try, Joseph? Were hallucinagenic drugs involved?




You also forget the fact that customer bias is present. Your speakers
will have to sound noticeably BETTER for the same price as the larger
companies to be seen as as viable choice. Sounds the same as their
speakers won't even cut it. Afterall - your speakers or a pair of Tannoy
S8 L/Rs? That's your closest mainstream competition. That specific
model.




There are lots of models at this price point.




Street price on the S8 L/Rs is $1350. Yours better sound like Tannoy's
$2000 speakers or you'll never get past that hurdle in customer's minds.
All things being equal, the customer will always choose the older,
established
name-brand product over the generic.




Your knowledge of product niches appears to be nonexistent.




You prattle on and on about your "years of experience in retail" selling
speakers and are blinded to this harsh fact in your haste to make money.

Tannoy? Paradigm? KEF? B&W? Some guy putting speakers together?
Four proven winners. One unknown new guy.




I wouldn't pay money for any of those "winners". They are not good
values on an absolute basis.


Greg, speakers are not designed by analogy.
They can be tuned by analogy.
You didn't do the work. You claim you were lucky, and you're out to

screw
the customer.



What exactly happens when I "screw the customer", Bob?



Your prices are inflated like a big commercial manufacturer but are based
upon your cost as a private individual.

eg:
$100 in parts marked up 5 times =$500 (DIYer going through a typical
supply
chain)
$50 in parts marked up 5 times = $250 (economy of scale and buying
thousands
of components from the
manufacturer)
Same exact parts. Same exact design in this example.


Because of the problem I stated above - namely, that you have to be BETTER
for the money, you must price your speakers for no more than the big
companies
competing products *reguardless of your profit margins*.




Joseph, you can't evaluate speakers without listening to them first.
Your posts are repeatedly showing how stupid you are, but because you're
so stupid, you can't learn from the experience.




Otherwise, they will always go out and buy the simmilar sounding name
brand
speaker for $1000.




Pure garbage.


....

What you need to do




We're through talking. Come back when you've grown a brain, please.

  #43   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotskyvarius out-of-tone.


"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:36:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

You are, of course, entitled to hold any opinion you wish about his
speakers.


Including the possibility that Weil is lying about having the speakers in
his possession.


Sure, I could be lying about it.


It's the RAO way, very little is what it appears to be.

I could also be setting Greg up
because, as you know, he and I took each other apart pretty regularly.


I don't get involved in little kid's grudge matches.

Maybe I'm holding a grudge, which makes his sending me the speakers at
the very least, an act of couraqge, especially since he knows that I
don't have the kind of gear that he would like to see associated with
his speakers.


Or the track record for actually owning credible, up-to-date speakers in
working condition. Not high end speakers, not even better mid-fi.

However, neither of these scenarios is true. I could prive the first
by posting a dated picture of them, but you'd just claim that I
"Photoshopped" them. So, why should I bother?


Thanks for pointing out how flakey your purported evidence would be.

Yes, I have them here and have listened to them as time has allowed.


....and Weil you've also tried to claim that you owned high end speakers in
some useful sense. You've made a number of other deceptive claims about
Greg's speakers as well.

I haven't *really* gotten into the meat of the listening, as I spent the
hour or so that I had available to me yesterday positioning them (and
I'm not quite satisfied yet).


Weiol, as if your ears have any kind of a track record for anything but
insensitivity and close connection to an egocentric, befuddled brain.

The funny thing is, that there are some areas that I think you are
going to agree with me about...


Without actually listening to the speakers I couldn't possibly agree with
anybody's listening evaluation of them in a meaningful way. Right now all
that I know for sure is that they are cheap, overpriced drives assembled by
a known know-nothing, hear-nothing, and vastly overpriced. All this in a
crowded marketplace with many equal-or-better alternatives.


  #44   Report Post  
Bob Morein
 
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Default Trotsky' screws the customer with absence of design


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Bobo, can't you see the double yellow line in the middle of the road?

There would be zero downside potential for him.
If I trash the speakers, then it would be attributed toward my personal
dislike of Trotsky, and be disregarded.
If I don't trash them, it's a plus for him.
He can't lose.


"I don't think I'm going to allow that to happen."

Who knows what your fevered brain would cook up once you had a pair
of the speakers in your possession.

Imagine the inner turmoil I would experience if I had to add the experience
to the "irony" column of my journal.
Or the righteous, foot-stomping glee if Trotsky's persona emerges, Princess
Leila - like, from the vents.

I'd take them over to my buddy Larry Zeitz, and we'd spend an evening with
them.
He has a pair of Bugtussel bookshelfs coming in.
I have a pair of MB Quarts, European versions, which similar in size to
Greg's speakers. I'd haul them over for the event.
Maybe I'd even bring a pair of Spica TC-60's.
OTOH, if Trotsky would like to get them to an established local retailer, I
believe Larry and I would both call the retailer to state that we wish to
hear the speakers.


  #45   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotskyvarius out-of-tone.


"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:36:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

One, Tom Nousiane is a professional
audio system evaluator is routinely paid well by sound system

manufacturers,
to evaluate their audio products.


So, basically, when he comments about subwoofers here on RAO, we have
to take into account that he's a biased (and compensated) observer.


None of the speaker systems Nousaine evaluates professionally are likely to
be discussed on RAO. The better of them are sonically superior and more
accurate than the best systems owned by most RAO readers.




  #46   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO


"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:24:44 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


If Best Buy shelf systems are included, we still have to be careful.


No we don't. Well, at least *I* don't.


We have an admission from Weil that he does not need to make careful
comparisons.


Sorry, both you and Bob lose because you didn't understand my point.


It appears that we understand it too well for Weil's own good.

My point is that I don't have to "be careful" including *any* speakers
because I've got the speakers in house to audition.


Meaningless.

I have direct experience with the speakers...


But Weil, we all know about your well-documented correction of substandard,
outdated, and abjectly broken equipment. It speaks very poorly of your
potential as a critical, accurate, insightful, unbiased reviewer.

and I don't have to guess how they
compare to the type of speakers that Bob is talking about.


That would only be true if you had speakers on hand that were credible and
had some kind of track record as a reliable sensitive listener.

Weil, saying that you have equally good reasons to shaft Singh as give him a
free pass does not prove that you are unbiased. It only proves that you're
unstable, which we know very well from past experience with you.


  #47   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO


"dave weil" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:24:44 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


We know that Weil regularly operated equipment well-known to damage ears

for
years during his military career. We don't know about any congenital

hearing
defects he might have. We do know that there are some acute problems with
mental stability in his family tree. We do know that he brags about

owning
loudspeakers that are known to be defective and/or wildly substandard by
modern standards.


Do you really think that your children would be proud of you using my
father's suicide against me in a discussion about speakers?


Where did I say anything about your father, Weil? But since you brought up
family, how many of your references to my relatively recently-deceased
family member do I need to dredge up to demonstrate your hypocrisy?

Oh yeah, the Army had a simple remedy for what you talk about -
mandatory ear plugs.


Proves nothing. Nobody can force people to properly use safety equipment
like earplugs. I saw safety equipment present but routinely not used during
my tour of duty. As stupid as you are Weil, you probably didn't use
available ear protection to be macho. The most dangerous place you visited
for a few days at a time in Germany was where I lived for a year straight.
People died there pretty routinely, if death can be routine.

As to the final point, I *do* own some loudspeakers that are currently
not being used because they need repair. They are not being used,
obviously.


Look Weil, you bragged about these broken POS when questioned about your
qualifications as a loudspeaker evaluator. I had to search the archives to
find out how deceptive your claims are. So you get no points for having any
recent in-house experience with good modern speakers, and you've lost a
bundle of points for trying to deceive us all. That puts you in a deep hole,
right?

Arnold, your attacking me shows more about you than it does me.


What it shows Weil is that you're well-known to many RAO regulars as a
hypocrite and a deceiver. I just had to put you through your paces for the
benefit of the newbies who might actually have their heads turned by your
song-and-dance.

I think you're mad because I didn't go after you while you were on your
vacation.


Just when I thought that you had been as low and lame as you could be Weil,
you come up with something weird like this.


  #48   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
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Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO


"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...
dave weil wrote:

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:24:44 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


We know that Weil regularly operated equipment well-known to damage

ears for
years during his military career. We don't know about any congenital

hearing
defects he might have. We do know that there are some acute problems

with
mental stability in his family tree. We do know that he brags about

owning
loudspeakers that are known to be defective and/or wildly substandard

by
modern standards.



Do you really think that your children would be proud of you using my
father's suicide against me in a discussion about speakers?




That's more of Arny's lack of Christian morals. Arny should just found
the Church of Being a ******* and have done with it. It could be that
he already tried, though, and kept on getting arrested for indecent
exposure by refusing to mend the well placed slit in his robe.


Not at all, Singh. Your ethics work something like this. You go looking for
a Christian with some fellow thugs, and then say to yourselves: Let's kick
the **** out of this guy because it will make us feel good to see another
human suffer for no reason but our pleasure. Then, if he tries to defend
himself, you accuse him of being a hypocrite for not letting you beat the
heck out of the parts you haven't yet tried to turn into mincemeat.

Let's talk about all the pedophile fantasies you've posted on RAO Singh, and
try to position them in your alleged ethical value system. How does this
work, Singh? Inquiring minds want to know!


  #49   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky' screws the customer with absence of design

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:35:16 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:08:58 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

I have *never* said or implied that my sole opinion will make Mr.
Singh's speakers marketable. That came out of left field, even for
you. I'm merely here as an observer as a courtesy to the group.

Fair enough.
I wonder if Trotsky would consider subsequently sending them to a
destination in Manhattan.
How many people would be interested in hearing them there?


I doubt he would do it just to let you to take biased potshots at his
product, as I don't think that you've shown yourself to be able to
analyse his speaker with anything other than malice.


There would be zero downside potential for him.
If I trash the speakers, then it would be attributed toward my personal
dislike of Trotsky, and be disregarded.
If I don't trash them, it's a plus for him.
He can't lose.


Not a good enough reason to take the trouble make them available to
you.

I'm pretty sure that the last possibility is almost beyond the realm
of possibility.

But that's just my opinion.

Also, that last possibility doesn't necessarily mean a plus for him
either. Such is your credibility on this forum.
  #50   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotskyvarius out-of-tone.

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:08:39 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:36:23 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

You are, of course, entitled to hold any opinion you wish about his
speakers.


Including the possibility that Weil is lying about having the speakers in
his possession.


Sure, I could be lying about it.


It's the RAO way, very little is what it appears to be.


You are a good example of that.
I could also be setting Greg up
because, as you know, he and I took each other apart pretty regularly.


I don't get involved in little kid's grudge matches.


You really *are* joking. You stick your nose in most of them, as well
as creating most of the "little kid's grudge matches" on RAO, just as
you are now.

Maybe I'm holding a grudge, which makes his sending me the speakers at
the very least, an act of couraqge, especially since he knows that I
don't have the kind of gear that he would like to see associated with
his speakers.


Or the track record for actually owning credible, up-to-date speakers in
working condition. Not high end speakers, not even better mid-fi.


Actually I own several pairs of working "up-to-date" speakers. Just
because speakers haven't been manufactured in a while doesn't make
them "out-of-date".

However, neither of these scenarios is true. I could prive the first
by posting a dated picture of them, but you'd just claim that I
"Photoshopped" them. So, why should I bother?


Thanks for pointing out how flakey your purported evidence would be.


No, thank me for pointing out how you would not give credence to even
photographic evidence. That's because you're an asshole. Simple as
that.

Yes, I have them here and have listened to them as time has allowed.


...and Weil you've also tried to claim that you owned high end speakers in
some useful sense.


I have owned Merlin speakers which even Mike Mckelvy acknowledges
makes some of the finest speakers he's ever heard.

The fact that they're down at the moment is irrelevant.

You've made a number of other deceptive claims about
Greg's speakers as well.


Name them.

I haven't *really* gotten into the meat of the listening, as I spent the
hour or so that I had available to me yesterday positioning them (and
I'm not quite satisfied yet).


Weiol, as if your ears have any kind of a track record for anything but
insensitivity and close connection to an egocentric, befuddled brain.


Simple projection of self-same flaws of Mr. krueger's personality.

The funny thing is, that there are some areas that I think you are
going to agree with me about...


Without actually listening to the speakers I couldn't possibly agree with
anybody's listening evaluation of them in a meaningful way.


Ahhhh, but you can diss them, right?

What hypocrisy!

But thanks for making my point for me.

Right now all that I know for sure is that they are cheap, overpriced drives assembled by
a known know-nothing, hear-nothing, and vastly overpriced. All this in a
crowded marketplace with many equal-or-better alternatives.


Without actually listening to the speakers, you couldn't possibly make
the last claim.

BTW, you spell my last name weil.


  #51   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:16:45 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

That would only be true if you had speakers on hand that were credible


I see. Now you're trashing Roy Allison.

Aren't you afraid of making Howard Ferstler angry?

That says nothing about trashing Paul Klipsch as well.

shrug
  #52   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:26:28 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Do you really think that your children would be proud of you using my
father's suicide against me in a discussion about speakers?


Where did I say anything about your father, Weil? But since you brought up
family, how many of your references to my relatively recently-deceased
family member do I need to dredge up to demonstrate your hypocrisy?


You directly alluded to it.

I find it funny that you consider praising your late son is equivalent
to using my father's suicide to make a point.

Just shows your inherent instability.

BTW, I'm glad to see that you're back in attack mode. It makes the
world seem almost normal.

PS, is that a stain on your underwear?
  #53   Report Post  
trotsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO

Arny Krueger wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...

dave weil wrote:


On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:24:44 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:



We know that Weil regularly operated equipment well-known to damage

ears for

years during his military career. We don't know about any congenital

hearing

defects he might have. We do know that there are some acute problems


with

mental stability in his family tree. We do know that he brags about

owning

loudspeakers that are known to be defective and/or wildly substandard


by

modern standards.


Do you really think that your children would be proud of you using my
father's suicide against me in a discussion about speakers?




That's more of Arny's lack of Christian morals. Arny should just found
the Church of Being a ******* and have done with it. It could be that
he already tried, though, and kept on getting arrested for indecent
exposure by refusing to mend the well placed slit in his robe.



Not at all, Singh. Your ethics work something like this. You go
looking for
a Christian with some fellow thugs, and then say to yourselves: Let's kick
the **** out of this guy because it will make us feel good to see another
human suffer for no reason but our pleasure. Then, if he tries to defend
himself, you accuse him of being a hypocrite for not letting you beat the
heck out of the parts you haven't yet tried to turn into mincemeat.




Wait, are you really trying to say that you are somehow innocent in all
of this? This is the biggest crock o' **** you've come up with yet.



Let's talk about all the pedophile fantasies you've posted on RAO
Singh, and
try to position them in your alleged ethical value system. How does this
work, Singh? Inquiring minds want to know!



Don't try and change the subject, Krueger. The subject is your
completely unChristian viewpoint as presented by your online persona.
You do agree there is nothing Christian about the way you behave on
Usenet, right?

  #54   Report Post  
trotsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky' screws the customer with absence of design

dave weil wrote:

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:35:16 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 12:08:58 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


I have *never* said or implied that my sole opinion will make Mr.
Singh's speakers marketable. That came out of left field, even for
you. I'm merely here as an observer as a courtesy to the group.

Fair enough.
I wonder if Trotsky would consider subsequently sending them to a
destination in Manhattan.
How many people would be interested in hearing them there?

I doubt he would do it just to let you to take biased potshots at his
product, as I don't think that you've shown yourself to be able to
analyse his speaker with anything other than malice.


There would be zero downside potential for him.
If I trash the speakers, then it would be attributed toward my personal
dislike of Trotsky, and be disregarded.
If I don't trash them, it's a plus for him.
He can't lose.



Not a good enough reason to take the trouble make them available to
you.




What Bob doesn't realize is that because of his behavior here I wouldn't
even sell him a pair.

  #55   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:08:02 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

However, when an adversary reverses his position, it is usually received
with enhanced credibility.
When an adversary reverses, it is the result of overwhelming evidence which
compels the adversary to honesty.


This is akin to Mr. Krueger coming on board as saying that I'm an
ideal RAO poster. This would not only be suspect, it might actually
impact on *my* credibility by those who don't like Mr. Krueger's
opinion on anything.


  #56   Report Post  
Bob Morein
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh


"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:08:02 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

However, when an adversary reverses his position, it is usually received
with enhanced credibility.
When an adversary reverses, it is the result of overwhelming evidence

which
compels the adversary to honesty.


This is akin to Mr. Krueger coming on board as saying that I'm an
ideal RAO poster. This would not only be suspect, it might actually
impact on *my* credibility by those who don't like Mr. Krueger's
opinion on anything.


Whatever. I don't think anybody is giving either of us much credibility.
The controversy has provoked Greg to make statements which are far more
interesting to lurkers than what we say.


  #57   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:33:44 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:08:02 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

However, when an adversary reverses his position, it is usually received
with enhanced credibility.
When an adversary reverses, it is the result of overwhelming evidence

which
compels the adversary to honesty.


This is akin to Mr. Krueger coming on board as saying that I'm an
ideal RAO poster. This would not only be suspect, it might actually
impact on *my* credibility by those who don't like Mr. Krueger's
opinion on anything.


Whatever. I don't think anybody is giving either of us much credibility.
The controversy has provoked Greg to make statements which are far more
interesting to lurkers than what we say.


That is until I weigh in. Then, the chips can fall where they may and
people can give whatever credence that they want to give.
  #58   Report Post  
Bob Morein
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh


"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:33:44 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:08:02 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

However, when an adversary reverses his position, it is usually

received
with enhanced credibility.
When an adversary reverses, it is the result of overwhelming evidence

which
compels the adversary to honesty.

This is akin to Mr. Krueger coming on board as saying that I'm an
ideal RAO poster. This would not only be suspect, it might actually
impact on *my* credibility by those who don't like Mr. Krueger's
opinion on anything.


Whatever. I don't think anybody is giving either of us much credibility.
The controversy has provoked Greg to make statements which are far more
interesting to lurkers than what we say.


That is until I weigh in. Then, the chips can fall where they may and
people can give whatever credence that they want to give.


No, it begins after you weigh in.
At this point, you have made no statement which requires credibility.
After you publish your result, credibility will determine to what degree
your opinion counts by itself.
If there is confirmation from other individuals who have not been involved
in this dispute, the importance of your opinion will be amplified.


  #59   Report Post  
dave weil
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:19:21 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:33:44 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:08:02 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:

However, when an adversary reverses his position, it is usually

received
with enhanced credibility.
When an adversary reverses, it is the result of overwhelming evidence
which
compels the adversary to honesty.

This is akin to Mr. Krueger coming on board as saying that I'm an
ideal RAO poster. This would not only be suspect, it might actually
impact on *my* credibility by those who don't like Mr. Krueger's
opinion on anything.

Whatever. I don't think anybody is giving either of us much credibility.
The controversy has provoked Greg to make statements which are far more
interesting to lurkers than what we say.


That is until I weigh in. Then, the chips can fall where they may and
people can give whatever credence that they want to give.


No, it begins after you weigh in.
At this point, you have made no statement which requires credibility.
After you publish your result, credibility will determine to what degree
your opinion counts by itself.
If there is confirmation from other individuals who have not been involved
in this dispute, the importance of your opinion will be amplified.


I really don't care if they're "amplified" or not. I'll simply be
expressing a singular opinion.
  #60   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO


"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:16:45 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

That would only be true if you had speakers on hand that were credible


I see. Now you're trashing Roy Allison.


Am I trashing Roy Allison or am I saying that old technology is inferior to
new technology?

Aren't you afraid of making Howard Ferstler angry?


Irrelevant.

That says nothing about trashing Paul Klipsch as well.


I'm sure that he's spinning in his grave at this kind of abuse of his name.

FYI, he died Mon, 6 May 2002.





  #61   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO


"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...

Arny Krueger wrote:


Let's talk about all the pedophile fantasies you've posted on RAO
Singh, and
try to position them in your alleged ethical value system. How does this
work, Singh? Inquiring minds want to know!


Don't try and change the subject, Krueger.


The truth abouyt your grotesque past misdeeds hurts even you, doesn't it
Singh?

You can't escape the facts that are in the Google archives, Singh. Why have
you worked so hard to promote pedophilia on RAO, Singh? Why isn't Marc
Phillips attacking you, Graham, and Middius in his alleged anti-pedophile
fervor?






  #62   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh


"Bob Morein" wrote in message
...

Whatever. I don't think anybody is giving either of us much credibility.
The controversy has provoked Greg to make statements which are far more
interesting to lurkers than what we say.


You said a mouthful there, Bob.

I can't imagine any reasonable lurker finding doing business with Singh an
attractive option, given the reprehensible ways that he has reacted to
decent and fair technical questions about his new speakers.



  #63   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh



dave weil said:

This is akin to Mr. Krueger coming on board as saying that I'm an
ideal RAO poster. This would not only be suspect, it might actually
impact on *my* credibility by those who don't like Mr. Krueger's
opinion on anything.


I dunno. If Krooger used that exact phrase, I'd assume he was
confused by the human meaning of "ideal" and was spewing a bunch of
random Krooglish.


  #64   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh



Bobo said:

Whatever. I don't think anybody is giving either of us much credibility.


On the contrary, I'm sure most of the group expects dave weil to give
an honest and balanced appraisal. Don't forget that he's been
supportive from the beginning of trotsky's intention to build and
market speakers. He put aside the vitriolic exchanges the two have
had in the past. He's argued with you, Krooger, and Obie about
Singh's right to do his thing. He's also wished trotsky well in the
undertaking. If you were compiling a short list of the RAO regulars
who have genuine cause for bearing a grudge against Singh, dave would
certainly be near the top, and yet he hasn't uttered a discouraging
word about the Jupiter business.

So unless you think dave weil plotted out a devious strategy for
getting trotsky to send him the speakers, intending all along to
trash their performance, you need to rethink your analysis. And this
is not an occasion calling for a snippet of "If the cameras were
rolling...." fiction.




  #65   Report Post  
trotsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO

Arny Krueger wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...


Arny Krueger wrote:



Let's talk about all the pedophile fantasies you've posted on RAO
Singh, and
try to position them in your alleged ethical value system. How does this
work, Singh? Inquiring minds want to know!



Don't try and change the subject, Krueger.



The truth abouyt your grotesque past misdeeds hurts even you, doesn't it
Singh?

You can't escape the facts that are in the Google archives, Singh. Why
have
you worked so hard to promote pedophilia on RAO, Singh? Why isn't Marc
Phillips attacking you, Graham, and Middius in his alleged anti-pedophile
fervor?



What happened to the rest of my post, Krueger? Are you admitting to
being afraid to discuss the topic?



  #66   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO



trotsky said:

Why have
you worked so hard to promote pedophilia on RAO, Singh? Why isn't Marc
Phillips attacking you, Graham, and Middius in his alleged anti-pedophile
fervor?


What happened to the rest of my post, Krueger? Are you admitting to
being afraid to discuss the topic?


No, Krooger is laying the foundation for his defense to a lawsuit.


  #67   Report Post  
Bob Morein
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh


"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:19:21 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:33:44 -0400, "Bob Morein"
wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 15:08:02 -0400, "Bob Morein"


wrote:

However, when an adversary reverses his position, it is usually

received
with enhanced credibility.
When an adversary reverses, it is the result of overwhelming

evidence
which
compels the adversary to honesty.

This is akin to Mr. Krueger coming on board as saying that I'm an
ideal RAO poster. This would not only be suspect, it might actually
impact on *my* credibility by those who don't like Mr. Krueger's
opinion on anything.

Whatever. I don't think anybody is giving either of us much

credibility.
The controversy has provoked Greg to make statements which are far

more
interesting to lurkers than what we say.

That is until I weigh in. Then, the chips can fall where they may and
people can give whatever credence that they want to give.


No, it begins after you weigh in.
At this point, you have made no statement which requires credibility.
After you publish your result, credibility will determine to what degree
your opinion counts by itself.
If there is confirmation from other individuals who have not been

involved
in this dispute, the importance of your opinion will be amplified.


I really don't care if they're "amplified" or not. I'll simply be
expressing a singular opinion.a


"Singular" means unique.
Did you mean that?


  #68   Report Post  
Bob Morein
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Bobo said:

Whatever. I don't think anybody is giving either of us much credibility.


On the contrary, I'm sure most of the group expects dave weil to give
an honest and balanced appraisal. Don't forget that he's been
supportive from the beginning of trotsky's intention to build and
market speakers. He put aside the vitriolic exchanges the two have
had in the past. He's argued with you, Krooger, and Obie about
Singh's right to do his thing. He's also wished trotsky well in the
undertaking. If you were compiling a short list of the RAO regulars
who have genuine cause for bearing a grudge against Singh, dave would
certainly be near the top, and yet he hasn't uttered a discouraging
word about the Jupiter business.


From my POV, I am most aware of the dispute I have with Weil.
The only thing I will grant is that he has more credibility than me, which
isn't hard, considering that I been asserting Greg's guilt by apriori
reasoning.

So unless you think dave weil plotted out a devious strategy for
getting trotsky to send him the speakers, intending all along to
trash their performance, you need to rethink your analysis. And this
is not an occasion calling for a snippet of "If the cameras were
rolling...." fiction.

I am inclined to believe that Weil's judgment will unintentionally give the
speakers more quality than they deserve, for two reasons:
1. There is the "novelty" effect, whereby an anomaly can sound interesting
at first, or until one is committed by purchase.
2. Weil, unlike me, may have scruples about hurting Greg Singh in a material
way.

George, you have the information on cliques at your fingertips.
Who among us trust Weil enough to accept his observation as even mildly
definitive?
Do you mean people who can actually be named, or lurkers rarely heard from?
Either represent a valid assertion, but I would appreciate just a little
clarification.







  #69   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotskyvarius out-of-tone.



Obie-Wan Sacred Cow said:

Assimilation alert!
Power up your stereos, guys. The 'borgs are on the march.


Well, gheezus


Is "gheezus" the god of yak butter?

- he hasn't even run the darn thing through a
test to find out its frequency response curve.


So? Maybe you should teach the rest of us how to mesmerize
yourself with a couple of limp meters so you'll forget about even
listening to music.


  #70   Report Post  
Bob Morein
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotskyvarius out-of-tone.


"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...
Arny Krueger wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...

Arny Krueger wrote:



Given Singh's abysmal technical skill level and the well-known
methodologies
for speaker design and evaluation that he avoided, it's probable that
Jupiter speakers have one or more horrendous response anomalies.



That's blatantly false.



Prove it with unbiased support for your claim.


The Europas are one of the most neutral
speakers I have heard at ANY price.



Key words: "I have heard" coming from the designer of self-same

speakers.


Because you have no Christian
morals, Krueger, you have no problem perpetuating blatant falsehoods.



Ironic Singh, coming from a person with no discernable ethics of *any*
kind.




Yeah, but I'm an atheist, and you're masquerading as a Christian. You
make a joke out of the religion.

You've made a joke out of atheism.




  #71   Report Post  
Joseph Oberlander
 
Posts: n/a
Default Bob Morion's been firing up the crack pipe again.

trotsky wrote:

Not as a first time builder.
I've never seen it done. There's a reason people are apprentices to
master craftsmen for years before building such insturments.


And let's not forget the telescopes. If you're peeping through
celebrities' windows do you refer to it as "gazing at the stars"?


Building your first REAL telescope requires months or years of
studying and math and calculations and such in addition to the
grinding, which can take darn near forever. 90% of first-timers
join groups and classes on how to do it and the rest that are
successful are serious engineers who do stuff like this for a living.

The same could be said about speakers or insturments. If you are
truly serious about dong this for a job/career, then you need to
study with a group. That means classes and a job with a reputable
company for a couple of years first to learn the ropes.

Look - I'm a good woodworker and know my stuff, but could I build
a better guitar then Martin or Guild? Not in a million years my
first time out. Even if I had their specs and plans and a couple
in front of me to copy. Could I build BETTER? Maybe after the
first 50 or so different tries. Maybe. Or, I could study with
a true pro who is doing it for real and learn what I need to know
in a couple of years.

What is readily apparent to even the most casual onlooker of
your speakers is that you are the true DIYer and lack the training
or engineering/psysics background or test equipment to compensate
for your rush to get into the field.

Do it right or crash and burn. There are no other ways unless
you LIKE to waste time and several years of pulling your hair out.

Honestly - I'm being as helpful as I can here. You really seem
to want to make speakers. Good. That's an honorable and good
profession if done right - and we can always use more competition
and innovation in the industry.

BUT - that requires a couple of years out of your life to learn how
to do it like the pros do. Take being an electrician. They train
you for several years and THEN you can go out and get your contractor's
license. That's if you want to really run a full-scale large company
that will be successful.

My advice would be to work for a company or go to school to
train as an acoustical engineer or both. 4-5 years out of your
life and presto! You suddenly are the guy that everyone's competing
against. They are pulling their hair out.

Sure - 4-5 years seems like a long time, but most failing businesses
can easily take 4-5 years out of your life and leave you with nothing
but an ulcer and frustration. Honsetly, life is too short to ****
away doing things halfway in your garage.


As they say, the devil's in the details. Little things like custom
crossovers(every design requires tweaking here - no exceptions),


You're right about one thing: the devil *is* in the details. For
example, you seem to have glossed over the detail of what experience you
have in this area. I claim that you have none.


I have at least as much as you do

My experience is in musical insturments and computers. I can fix and
repair many types of insturments and yet would not even attempt to
MAKE one from scratch without doing the proper schooling and training
as, again, my life is too short to **** away several years only to
most likely fail instead of doing it right and possibly being another
Les Paul or simmilar craftsman.

No - I'm not into Guitars or want to build insturments right now
in my life(more interested in playing than building right now),
but if I *did*, I'd go full-bore at it with the long-term in
mind.

baffles
and internal bracing(huge with a speaker if you want the port to do
anything other than "chuff" at you)


You've bought into marketing hype, Joseph, or even worse, "conventional
wisdom."


Conventional wisdom is correct here. You must know what and how and WHY
your speaker works inside to get the proper sound and not a bunch of
distortion and resonance. The cabinet is the hardest part for any
speaker maker and yours look like - well - boxes made with the attention
to detail of IKEA. Serviceable furnature/boxes, but nothing more.

- the specific type of material,
how you mount the speakers,(you are using a proper gasket and machine
screws? Let's hope you aren't just slapping it together with drywall
screws) the shape of the port, and even tiny things like what exact
glue and varnish(if wood) you use.


What would happen if you used drywall screws--would your hair catch on
fire? Also, could you explain in detail how you use machine screws in
wood? (I use T-nuts for the woofers, which utilized machine screws, but
I'm interested in your Three Stooges version.)


That's one way. Another is to put mounts/etc into the cabinet itself that
give you a threaded metal hole. The worst of all, though, is just to
jam a screw into the soft MDF and hope it never needs to be taken out.

If you really want to learn how to make excellent speakers then
do yourself a huge favor and study and/or work at a major speaker
manufacturer for a couple of years to learn some of the secrets
and techniques.


Mass produced speakers are part of the problem. In fact, you're
contradicting yourself because in the beginning of your post you were
referring to handmade "instruments."


All speakers and instruments are "handmade" at some point.(possible
exception with Yamaha and a few others that are more like true
assembly lines). Their methods of assembly, quality control,
and design alone are closely guarded secrets. Learning even a few
will save you months and years of figuring it out the hard way.

Look at Ellis - he's been doing it for YEARS and is finally just now
in the last year or so getting to the point where he is competing
with the big makers. If course he's doing it as a hobby, so that's
understandable. You are looking at facing a hard uphill climb
for several years while trying to run a full-fledged business. Ow.

You can either slap somethig together and be Kia - fine cars but
nothing special or you can learn to do it correctly and make a
Honda, which is built to much higher standards in every single
way.


Uh oh, looks like we shifted gears to the car analogy. Don't you want
to compare the process to a Tarantino script?


Proper engineering and design principles apply to almost anything
that you can buy. Q: What kind of car do you own? Q:Would you
buy a Kia instead? Why not?

So far, only your opinions. Have you actually done a side-by-side
test with other speakers using other people?


I've listened to more speakers than you will in your entire lifetime.


Meaningless. I can say I've practiced more music in my lifetime than
you have ever listened to, but unless I talk about the times when I've
played in front of live people, it's all theory and what-if.

But you aren't the target audience, Joseph, you're Tannoy's target
audience. Why you're not saving for a pair of Joseph Audios is beyond me.


Already have an adequate speaker setup and I'm not anal about getting
perfect sound when there are a million other things that I can do
in my life wityh the money from putting in a new addition to sending
my son to a private school, to buying a new professional insturment,
to bigger goals like moving to Japan(only $10K for moving costs
last I heard - lol - that might take a while) and working abroad for
a few years.

New speakers just to sound a bit "better" is low on my list. That
doesn't mean I can't listen and look, though, as currently I do
computer and A/V systems consulting. (music never does pay the bills)

Oh - now you are really beginning to believe your own marketing.
If you've only been looking at the subs you could find at Circuit City,
then I could imagine that you might think that.

OTOH, at your prices, there are subs what will guaranteed stomp on
yours ten times over.


"Stomp" doesn't exactly imply finesse, or credibility. It sounds like
you're coming from a car stereo mentality.


Okay - how about... Make your woofers sound like they are made out
of cotton candy? Paper mache'? Pick some term you are comfortable with,
because in a side-by-side comparison, you are going to be hard-pressed to
beat the better subs by even Velodyne.

WHY you are even offering a SUB is beyond me. I'd stay OUT of that
mire and instead buld some small full-range towers. You risk too much by
splitting your design prosess into two different types of speakers.

The sad fact is that it IS impossible. Too many small variables.


When did you try, Joseph? Were hallucinagenic drugs involved?


I have yet to see ANY first-time builder make a good product where
audio(acoustic/speakers) or music(insturments) is concerned unless
it is a radicaly different or innovative design. It just doesn't
happen as the small details are too many and the competition is
fierce in both fields.

You also forget the fact that customer bias is present. Your speakers
will have to sound noticeably BETTER for the same price as the larger
companies to be seen as as viable choice. Sounds the same as their
speakers won't even cut it. Afterall - your speakers or a pair of Tannoy
S8 L/Rs? That's your closest mainstream competition. That specific
model.


There are lots of models at this price point.


Exactly. Why choose your versus the Paradigms or B&Ws?




Street price on the S8 L/Rs is $1350. Yours better sound like Tannoy's
$2000 speakers or you'll never get past that hurdle in customer's minds.
All things being equal, the customer will always choose the older,
established
name-brand product over the generic.


Your knowledge of product niches appears to be nonexistent.


The average consumer - you know the type - all about how much
it costs and looks - will not see your speaker as a niche of anything.
In fact, most will see that massive tweeter you are using as UGLY
and pass on it.

I wouldn't pay money for any of those "winners". They are not good
values on an absolute basis.


And yours are? Again, to the average consumer off the street, they
will probably buy BOSE than your designs, so you must offer something
better in terms of price or features or finish as sound isn't any
better for the money than they can do.

eg:
$100 in parts marked up 5 times =$500 (DIYer going through a typical
supply
chain)
$50 in parts marked up 5 times = $250 (economy of scale and buying
thousands
of components from the
manufacturer)
Same exact parts. Same exact design in this example.


Because of the problem I stated above - namely, that you have to be
BETTER
for the money, you must price your speakers for no more than the big
companies
competing products *reguardless of your profit margins*.


Joseph, you can't evaluate speakers without listening to them first.


And you can't stay in business unless you can price your speakers
lower than your competition as a new player in the field. Economics 101.

Your profit margins are meaningless to EVERYONE ON THE PLANET other
than you. Your customers, doubly so.

Otherwise, they will always go out and buy the simmilar sounding name
brand
speaker for $1000.


Pure garbage.


I've seen people not buy cars because they were going to pay $5 more
a month in payments. People are cheap asses and skinflints if you
give them half a chance to do so.

Given that your speakers are online and you don't have a salesroom where
you can flood their weak minds with sales crap, they have plenty of
opportunity to NOT buy your marketing.

Now, if you set up distribution and had salesdroids hawking them
for you, then you'd probably sell a few. Online only? Not a chance.

  #72   Report Post  
S888Wheel
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh


Who among us trust Weil enough to accept his observation as even mildly
definitive?


I think the question is premised on a false assumption. i for one, am of the
opinion that there are no definitive subjective opinions. It's a sort of an
oxymoron. OTOH i personally have never seen any reason not to trust Dave Weil's
honesty.
  #73   Report Post  
George M. Middius
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh



Bobo said:

So unless you think dave weil plotted out a devious strategy for
getting trotsky to send him the speakers, intending all along to
trash their performance, you need to rethink your analysis. And this
is not an occasion calling for a snippet of "If the cameras were
rolling...." fiction.


I am inclined to believe that Weil's judgment will unintentionally give the
speakers more quality than they deserve, for two reasons:
1. There is the "novelty" effect, whereby an anomaly can sound interesting
at first, or until one is committed by purchase.


If you think that, you don't know anything about weil's background.

2. Weil, unlike me, may have scruples about hurting Greg Singh in a material
way.


I'd say that's irrelevant because trotsky asked for a public
evaluation. I expect weil's evaluation to be as clinical as he can
make it and as lacking in, ah, colorations as possible.


George, you have the information on cliques at your fingertips.
Who among us trust Weil enough to accept his observation as even mildly
definitive?


"Definitive"? Where on earth did you get that from? Nobody should
expect that and no reasonable person would use it to describe any one
opinion.

Put aside your histrionics. What you can get from an experienced,
knowledgeable observer (a description that fits weil, in my view) is
an informed opinion. From the way you and Obie (and duh-Mikey) have
been squawking, one would think it's a million-to-one shot that the
speakers won't sound terrible. If you have to generalize to meet some
bizarre need of yours, I think what you'll get from weil is a ballpark
evaluation. E.g., if he says they're "above average for clarity and
imaging" or "muddy sounding in the bass", won't that give you some
idea? How about "stellar performers on most music" or "a horrible
nightmare of a garage experiment"? Those should put you in the
ballpark too. It's just one guy's opinion.


Do you mean people who can actually be named, or lurkers rarely heard from?
Either represent a valid assertion, but I would appreciate just a little
clarification.


If you're referring to my "most of the group" assertion, the only ones
I consciously excluded were the 'borgs and a few obstreperous
trotsky-haters. I dislike the little toad also, you will note, but I
don't prejudge his speakers. See the difference?

Another way to put this, dispensing with my customary delicacy, is to
say that you've gone way past any reasonable position on this issue.
The issue you've fixated on -- trotsky's slapdash "design" procedure
-- is irrelevant to most audio consumers. Obie's fixation is equally
strained. When he insists that every consumer will behave the way he
himself does, that puts him outside the bounds of reasonable
assumptions. Consumers buy stuff for all kinds of reasons, and it's
certainly false that they will all compare the Jupiter speakers to
those from established companies. If trotsky were gunning for a major
share of the audiophile speaker market, say 1%, he would need a
marketing warchest that no garage operator has. His actual plan,
assuming it's formulated, is probably to sell 25 sets in the first
year. And some consumers in the audiophile segment don't do critical
listening, you know. Some want speakers that a dealer or other audio
authority figure tells them are "good". Some want speakers that are
cool looking, or different (exclusivity), or perceived as avant-garde.

I do understand your feeling that because the established experts in
speaker design are much more knowledgeable and accomplished than
trots, it's an insult to their efforts for him to offer a home-brewed
box that arose through a process even less sophisticated than Wadia or
Levinson used. But I don't understand why you would get so exercised
about one little guy, even an obnoxious little twerp, trying to sell
25 pairs of speakers a year.


  #74   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotskyvarius out-of-tone.


"Bob Morein" wrote in message
...

"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...
Arny Krueger wrote:


"trotsky" wrote in message
nk.net...


Arny Krueger wrote:


Given Singh's abysmal technical skill level and the well-known
methodologies
for speaker design and evaluation that he avoided, it's probable

that
Jupiter speakers have one or more horrendous response anomalies.


That's blatantly false.


Prove it with unbiased support for your claim.


Singh has had two rounds of postings in which to support his claim. Safe to
say he's a no-show, again

The Europas are one of the most neutral
speakers I have heard at ANY price.


Key words: "I have heard" coming from the designer of self-same

speakers.


Because you have no Christian
morals, Krueger, you have no problem perpetuating blatant falsehoods.


Fact of the matter is that Singh hasn't shown me actually perpetuating even
one falsehood. I've supported my claims with unbiased references.

When the details of Singh's claims are investigated, they are usually found
to be completely empty. Deep down, Singh is shallow. Heck, Singh is
excruciatingly shallow even at just the skin deep level.

Ironic Singh, coming from a person with no discernable ethics of *any*
kind.


Yeah, but I'm an atheist, and you're masquerading as a Christian. You
make a joke out of the religion.


You've made a joke out of atheism.


Exactly. Classic cliché, but it fits - some of my best friends are atheists.
They are also good, upright people with high ethics by any reasonable
standard.

No way would my atheist friends be found maliciously posting pedophile
fantasies on an audio group like the google record proves that Singh did,
literally for years. No way would they welsh on deals like Singh has done on
RAO. But let's not get started in the long sorry story of Singh's very sad
history on RAO. The bad news would just pile on and on.

When Singh calls himself an atheist, he's libeling a lot of very good people
who also happen to be atheists, but in contrast with Singh, have high moral
and ethical standards.


  #75   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO


"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...

Arny Krueger wrote:


"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...


Arny Krueger wrote:


Let's talk about all the pedophile fantasies you've posted on RAO
Singh, and
try to position them in your alleged ethical value system. How does

this
work, Singh? Inquiring minds want to know!


No relevant response from Singh. He's tacitly admitting that he has no
defense for his reprehensible behavior.

Don't try and change the subject, Krueger.


The truth about your grotesque past misdeeds hurts even you, doesn't it
Singh?


No relevant response from Singh. He's tacitly admitting that he has no
defense for his reprehensible behavior.

You can't escape the facts that are in the Google archives, Singh. Why
have
you worked so hard to promote pedophilia on RAO, Singh? Why isn't Marc
Phillips attacking you, Graham, and Middius in his alleged

anti-pedophile
fervor?


No relevant response from Singh. He's tacitly admitting that he has no
defense for his reprehensible behavior.

What happened to the rest of my post, Krueger?


No content worth responding to.

Are you admitting to being afraid to discuss the topic?


Which topic am I afraid to discuss Singh? It seems like you have no excuse
for your reprehensible behavior on RAO. At least give us a hearty mea culpa!





  #76   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotsky's questionable SPEAKERS -- JUPITER AUDIO


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


trotsky said:

Why have
you worked so hard to promote pedophilia on RAO, Singh? Why isn't Marc
Phillips attacking you, Graham, and Middius in his alleged

anti-pedophile
fervor?


What happened to the rest of my post, Krueger? Are you admitting to
being afraid to discuss the topic?


No, Krooger is laying the foundation for his defense to a lawsuit.


Let's see Middius. Aren't you the one who claimed that I was going to fall
on my knees and ask sockpuppet wheel for forgiveness on or before September
20?

What's today's date Middius?


  #77   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh


"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Bobo said:

Whatever. I don't think anybody is giving either of us much credibility.


On the contrary, I'm sure most of the group expects dave weil to give
an honest and balanced appraisal.


Gee Middius, weren't you the one who claimed that I was going to fall
on my knees and ask sockpuppet wheel for forgiveness on or before September
20?

What's today's date Middius? So much for your claims of skill at
prognostication.


Don't forget that he's been
supportive from the beginning of trotsky's intention to build and
market speakers.


IOW, Weil is likely to be biased in such a way that he will whitewash any
audible deficiencies of Singh's speakers. However there's a bigger problem
here and that is Weil's non-existent qualifications as a loudspeaker
reviewer.

He put aside the vitriolic exchanges the two have
had in the past. He's argued with you, Krooger, and Obie about
Singh's right to do his thing.


Trouble is Middius there is no such argument. There is no argument over
Singh's right to make an ass out of himself one more time with this cockeyed
speaker scheme of his. Never was.

He's also wished trotsky well in the
undertaking.


As did I. So what? Just because a lot of people would like Singh to stop
screwing his life up by the numbers and finally do one little thing right,
doesn't mean that this is the time when he finally grows a brain.

If you were compiling a short list of the RAO regulars
who have genuine cause for bearing a grudge against Singh, dave would
certainly be near the top, and yet he hasn't uttered a discouraging
word about the Jupiter business.


Weil's ability to deny obvious true facts is well known. He's well-qualified
to evaluate Singh's speakers on the grounds that he's been a collector of
deadly cheap, defective and outdated loudspeaker systems for years.

So unless you think dave weil plotted out a devious strategy for
getting trotsky to send him the speakers, intending all along to
trash their performance, you need to rethink your analysis.


Wrong. The problem with Weil evaluating a project by Singh is that its a
classic case of the blind misleading the blind. It's "Dumb and Dumber" all
over again. An interesting debate could be based on the question as to which
one is less qualified to do what he wants to do.

And this
is not an occasion calling for a snippet of "If the cameras were
rolling...." fiction.


True facts often make for a more interesting story than any fiction
contrived by man.



  #78   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default The Second Coming of Greg Singh


"S888Wheel" wrote in message
...

I personally have never seen any reason not to trust Dave Weil's honesty.


Sockpuppet Wheel, you have a track record for personally being one of the
dumber rubes in the history of RAO.


  #79   Report Post  
trotsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotskyvarius out-of-tone.

Bob Morein wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...

Arny Krueger wrote:


"trotsky" wrote in message
link.net...


Arny Krueger wrote:



Given Singh's abysmal technical skill level and the well-known
methodologies
for speaker design and evaluation that he avoided, it's probable that
Jupiter speakers have one or more horrendous response anomalies.


That's blatantly false.


Prove it with unbiased support for your claim.



The Europas are one of the most neutral
speakers I have heard at ANY price.


Key words: "I have heard" coming from the designer of self-same


speakers.


Because you have no Christian
morals, Krueger, you have no problem perpetuating blatant falsehoods.


Ironic Singh, coming from a person with no discernable ethics of *any*
kind.




Yeah, but I'm an atheist, and you're masquerading as a Christian. You
make a joke out of the religion.


You've made a joke out of atheism.




Bob, when you lack cleverness as much as you do, suicide must come up as
an option often.

  #80   Report Post  
trotsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default Trotskyvarius out-of-tone.

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Bob Morein" wrote in message
...

"trotsky" wrote in message
link.net...

Arny Krueger wrote:



"trotsky" wrote in message
hlink.net...



Arny Krueger wrote:



Given Singh's abysmal technical skill level and the well-known
methodologies
for speaker design and evaluation that he avoided, it's probable


that

Jupiter speakers have one or more horrendous response anomalies.



That's blatantly false.



Prove it with unbiased support for your claim.





The Europas are one of the most neutral
speakers I have heard at ANY price.



Key words: "I have heard" coming from the designer of self-same


speakers.



Because you have no Christian
morals, Krueger, you have no problem perpetuating blatant falsehoods.



Fact of the matter is that Singh hasn't shown me actually perpetuating
even
one falsehood. I've supported my claims with unbiased references.




Krueger, I can't believe it, you're too ****ing afraid to respond to me
directly! That was easy.

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