I've recently started doing some soundtrack work for a University
Department that does educational videos, creating original pieces of
music that fit the mood of the animations, doing some special effects
(foley) stuff to match the video, etc.

After years of working my butt off in bands, I find the soundtrack work
to be really exciting and fun, as well as creative. I have a nice home
studio, and all the tools necessary to write original compositions and
record them with excellent quality using a wide variety of real and
virtual instruments.

It also seems to me, being very naive and all, that there must be a ton
of commercials, low-budget movies, shorts, etc. that would dig the
chance to get soundtrack work done (i.e., original music written and
recorded) for a low price.

My questions a

1) Is this just an impossible field to get into?

2) If not, does anyone have suggestions on where I could get started?

Again, being naive, it seems like once you got a few credits under your
belt, it wouldn't be hard to stay busy. But maybe I'm totally mistaken.
I'm not thinking of this being a full-time job, but rather something I
could do part-time. Of course, if it ever evolved into full-time, that
would be great.

Thanks for any info, and I sincerely apologize if I'm asking for the
moon and stars without knowing it.

CT

P.S.

For the curious, a sample of one of these videos can be found he

http://www.loci.wisc.edu/outreach/swf/polarity.swf

Acid has been such inspiration for the PeeCee users for so many years.
But you are not too late, because I haven't seen huge industry grow up
for such application. Check out sonicfoundry Acid and see what' the
real deal out there first. Potential is great, and outlook is bright,
but money(or market) isn't there yet.


On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:43:58 -0500, Charles Thomas
wrote:

I've recently started doing some soundtrack work for a University
Department that does educational videos, creating original pieces of
music that fit the mood of the animations, doing some special effects
(foley) stuff to match the video, etc.

After years of working my butt off in bands, I find the soundtrack work
to be really exciting and fun, as well as creative. I have a nice home
studio, and all the tools necessary to write original compositions and
record them with excellent quality using a wide variety of real and
virtual instruments.

It also seems to me, being very naive and all, that there must be a ton
of commercials, low-budget movies, shorts, etc. that would dig the
chance to get soundtrack work done (i.e., original music written and
recorded) for a low price.

My questions a

1) Is this just an impossible field to get into?

2) If not, does anyone have suggestions on where I could get started?

Again, being naive, it seems like once you got a few credits under your
belt, it wouldn't be hard to stay busy. But maybe I'm totally mistaken.
I'm not thinking of this being a full-time job, but rather something I
could do part-time. Of course, if it ever evolved into full-time, that
would be great.

Thanks for any info, and I sincerely apologize if I'm asking for the
moon and stars without knowing it.

CT

P.S.

For the curious, a sample of one of these videos can be found he

http://www.loci.wisc.edu/outreach/swf/polarity.swf

In article ,
tojo wrote:

Acid has been such inspiration for the PeeCee users for so many years.

I don't see what software has to do with anything. Software is a tool.
Composition is an art. They are only tangentially related.

Check out sonicfoundry Acid and see what' the
real deal out there first.

See above. It seems like we're talking about two different things.

I want to know how a musician/composer could go about marketing himself
to people who need soundtrack music.

CT

In article ,
Les Cargill wrote:

I poked around with this for a while, and it's not that easy to
find people who need the services who also have any money at all.

I feel like there must be tens of thousands of people who need the
services. Commercials, training videos and thousands of indy and/or
lower-budget films are being made every day. They're going SOMEWHERE
for their music.

I agree that the "money" part is potentially a sticking point, but I
have a suspicion that the money part is less of a difficulty than
getting in touch with the people who have the need.

But thanks for the info.

CT

"Charles Thomas" wrote in
message ...
In article ,
Les Cargill wrote:

I poked around with this for a while, and it's not that easy to
find people who need the services who also have any money at all.

I feel like there must be tens of thousands of people who need the
services. Commercials, training videos and thousands of indy and/or
lower-budget films are being made every day. They're going SOMEWHERE
for their music.

I agree that the "money" part is potentially a sticking point, but I
have a suspicion that the money part is less of a difficulty than
getting in touch with the people who have the need.

But thanks for the info.

The soundtrack (movie/video game) industry is VERY clique oriented and
extremely difficult to get a start in. It seems that you have "Camp A" :
The professional who realises the need for higher end music/audio. These
guys tend to have someone (or a team...or themselves) on staff that handles
this need. "Camp B" : The small, start up. These guys tend to handle the
audio themselves, piecing together samples (like with Acid), which is
probably why the last guy brought it up. They do this because money is an
issue, and/or they don't realise the importance that their music/audio can
have on their production. If not being handled in-house, it seems that all
these people turn to whoever is in their VERY small circle of assosiates for
help. So, just keep doing as many projects as you can. Everytime you
complete a project, add it on to your demo CD and start sending it to your
local video houses that specialize in local commercials, video game
companies...etc. and maybe you'll end up in someones very small circle of
associates known for good work.

In article ,
"area242" wrote:

just keep doing as many projects as you can. Everytime you
complete a project, add it on to your demo CD and start sending it to your
local video houses that specialize in local commercials, video game
companies...etc. and maybe you'll end up in someones very small circle of
associates known for good work.

Thanks. That was more or less the plan.

I appreciate the input.

CT

Commercials, training videos and thousands of indy and/or
lower-budget films are being made every day.

and so are cd collections of generic music written, recorded and packaged for
just such productions. you're talking about an industry that generally doesn't
need "great, custom" created music so they turn to a catalog system that they
can preview and purchase at their leisure. sad but economically sound.
scott spelbring | recording + interactive | dragonflyeast.com

"scott spelbring" wrote in message
...
Commercials, training videos and thousands of indy and/or
lower-budget films are being made every day.

and so are cd collections of generic music written, recorded and packaged
for
just such productions. you're talking about an industry that generally
doesn't
need "great, custom" created music so they turn to a catalog system that
they
can preview and purchase at their leisure. sad but economically sound.
scott spelbring | recording + interactive | dragonflyeast.com

Yes, that's very true. It's very much the same concept as photography.
Most small to medium sized print-ad and advertising companies don't even
hire photographers, as they can usually find the image they're looking for
(or close enough for them) in one of the numerous catalogs out there. You
would be wise to try to sell license-free CD's on the Internet of your
music, as your do more work and build up your catalog.

In article , Charles
Thomas wrote:

In article ,
Les Cargill wrote:

I poked around with this for a while, and it's not that easy to
find people who need the services who also have any money at all.

I feel like there must be tens of thousands of people who need the
services. Commercials, training videos and thousands of indy and/or
lower-budget films are being made every day. They're going SOMEWHERE
for their music.

Usually libraries for the corporate and lower end commercials, and even
lots of the budget TV (cable and police chase type stuff). The high end
national commercial work is very competitive and takes time,
connections, and credits to get into. Low budget films always are
looking, but have no money. If you're happy working for back end that
will likely never materialize, then this is an avenue...

This is not to say that you can't get some post work. If you can get
connected to some people and offer custom music for what they are used
to paying with needle drops, and can do it quite quickly and give them a
couple options liek they'd have with a library, you can get some work.
It's not going to be glamorous or lucrative in the beginning, but you
can make a few bucks and start putting together a reel. Find the local
ad agencies, and put something slick together. They're going to want to
see you as a creative guy who can provide great service. this is the
cappucino set used to working in video edit houses with nice lobbies,
receptionists, and client services. It's good to know what they are used
to and expecting. One good way to get your feet wet and get a reel
happening is to "ghost write" for somebody. Find someone with work, be
it a music house, post house, or editorial shop, and do their overflow,
or low end spots they aren't interested in, or even a couple little
stingers for a larger wrk that they are scoring themselves. The client
won't know it's you in the beginning, and most of the monsy goes to the
house, but you can put the stuff on the reel and resume, and this helps
get you on your feet. It also gets you experience and you'll learn a lot
about the market.

There's a lot more to this, but you will learn as you go. The most
important part is to know what your customer expects (is used to) and
provide it. Show them that your stuff is just as good, just as cheap,
just as quick, and just as versatile and plentiful as the drops they
have been using. With that you build the resume and reel, and that's
what gets you to the next level when things are a bit better, but no
less predictable or steady. You'll do a lot of demo tracks that never
get picked up, hence you never get paid for. You'll be going up against
several established guys who do demos for the same spot you're going
for. It's a buyers market. It's all about making relationships, keeping
them active, and a bit of "fake it 'til you make it". Being in business
for yourself take a lot of time, energy, capital, and commitment.

--
Jay Frigoletto
Mastersuite
Los Angeles
promastering.com

sadly, this seems pretty accurate based on my attemptsG... comments
interspersed:

Jay - atldigi wrote:
In article , Charles
Thomas wrote:

I feel like there must be tens of thousands of people who need the
services. Commercials, training videos and thousands of indy and/or
lower-budget films are being made every day. They're going SOMEWHERE
for their music.

I don't think there is any question that the market for soundtracks is
growing rapidly. The need for content in general is growing!

Usually libraries for the corporate and lower end commercials, and even
lots of the budget TV (cable and police chase type stuff).

Yup... libraries are very difficult to compete with... they are so
inexpensive, and for an awful lot of producers, they are good enough.

The high end national commercial work is very competitive and takes time,
connections, and credits to get into.

It certainly appears, from the outside, to be a very tightly controled
clique.

Low budget films always are
looking, but have no money. If you're happy working for back end that
will likely never materialize, then this is an avenue...

And this appears to be the only entry point... which I assume has
largely been the case all along... though I've not done the research to
back it up.

And there are exceptions... "Snuffy" Walden Smith tells the tale of
being heard gigging by producers for "30 Something", but fearing that
they just wanted to meet a guy named Snuffy. (Sorry, can't remember
where I read that). Needless to say, his entry point worked out pretty
wellG!

This is not to say that you can't get some post work. If you can get
connected to some people and offer custom music for what they are used
to paying with needle drops, and can do it quite quickly and give them a
couple options like they'd have with a library, you can get some work.

The mere thought of that approach makes me very tiredG!

It's not going to be glamorous or lucrative in the beginning, but you
can make a few bucks and start putting together a reel.

I think that the demo reel is the key. Of course there is a bit of a
catch-22 working against you, it is hard to land even local work without
a reel, and hard to assemble a reel without workG!

A suggestion I've heard more than once is to record a bunch of
commercials off TV and then replace the soundtrack with your own work. I
don't know if it would work, but it doesn't seem all that far fetched.

snip
One good way to get your feet wet and get a reel happening is to "ghost write"
nother snip

This is the approach I favored... but I've had very little luck with it
because most of the folks I've approached have nixed the idea of my
putting the work on my own demo reel.

snipped again
It's a buyers market.

And even with the increasing demand this seems to be getting worse (from
our perspective) rather than better.

It's all about making relationships, keeping them active,

I think this is where I have stumbled the most. The level of
salesmanship required is very high, and years ago when I first went
after this market I had no sales skills. I've gotten better over the
years, but I'm no expert by a long shot.

And that is one of the things that frustrated me the most! It wasn't
just about delivering good work... it was all the bells and whistles
too, and I fought that a lotG!

and a bit of "fake it 'til you make it".

hmmmm....

Being in business for yourself take a lot of time, energy, capital, and commitment.

Still most of us here aspire to do just that! I wonder what that says
about us???

Couple more thoughts about niche markets... there are lots of them, and
while some of them may seem at first to be a bit silly, all of them
could be an entry into soundtrack work I suppose.

A friend of mine has made a pretty nice living doing "point of
marketing" production, mostly for voicemail menus, but he has landed a
couple of local stores as well for their overhead announcements.

I know lots of folks who have done soundtrack work for "blue" moviesG...

If you have an art school nearby there is usually a film department (do
they still call them film departments?) and student films are always
looking for soundtracks... no pay but you never know which student is
going to make itG! One disturbing trend is that a lot of the film
students seem to think that "Band-in-a-Box" or Acid gets them close
enough. And a couple can even pull it off, but most turn out worse than
if they had used library cuts!!!

My personal favorite in the no pay category is community theatre. Audio
is now getting the same recognition that lighting got back in the
seventiesG... but that's OK, it provides opportunities! When I started
I was pretty much limited to sound effects, most of which worked better
if they were done with "practicals" like thunder sheets or two pieces of
wood smacked together, but what the heck, it's a foot in the door. Later
I was allowed to choose music for scene changes, which grew into
choosing music for underscores, which finally let to composing music for
the production. Fortunately, I enjoy working in theatre as long as it
isn't my day job!!!

Good luck, and if you find the secret don't share it here... send it to
me via emailG!!!

Bill

Two more things:

1: the jobs where there is good money available are being done by
people who themselves make good money, but are under severe time
pressure.
This translates into you providing a convenient service for them.
How?
Location, amenities, service. Often ad agencies etc. are clustered
in a certain part of a city (Madison Ave. etc), and the businesses
that service them are there also. The value of being near their
office can't be over-emphasized. If you are not near their offices,
then working out fast and reliable messenger services and your FTP set
up should be very high on your priority list (although if you are
successful you'll end up moving to their neighborhood anyway). If
you can get these clients to come to your studio, remember that these
are people who are in the business of first impressions and value-add
perks: spiff up your place as much as you can. Make sure there are
comfortable places for them to sit, adequate phones and DSL lines for
them, parking etc... Seeming to be hip is very important to
agencies.

2: If you can get some of this work, it is very important to have your
set up honed to the point that you can work quickly with the clients
there with you.
The movie/ad score world works in infinite shadings of a musical
idea--the jobs with real money will want many many versions of cues
with subtle changes, and it is precisely their ability to interact
directly with the nuts and bolts of the cue that that are paying you
for. It is a collaborative process, and they are the final arbiter of
what works--I suppose that is the major difference between songwriting
and score work.

A last note: music libraries are becoming ever more popular, and some
agency people I've talked to prefer them because what they hear is
what they get and they had had bad experiences w/ composers. So, of
course, give them good experiences, but also get on the other side of
the wave: the libraries hire composers, and the good ones are adding
music all the time. Talk to APM--they seem to add new CDs every
month.

Philip Perkins

Here in my town, Chicago, there's a huge number of production houses
pretty much dedicated to just commercial/soundtrack work. Probably
more people doing this than recording bands. Just go to this website,
www.creativedir.com and click on the sound & music tab to get a huge
listing of studios, production houses, etc. that specialize in this
stuff. Check out every site, watch and listen to their clips, and do
everything that they do.

I'm trying to get involoved in this scene as well, and it is tough
to break into. But then again, everything is these days. It seems to
be a good fit for guys who wear a ton of hats like the
performer/composer/writer/producer/engineer/salesman type, which
hopefully will work to my advantage, since this is pretty much me to a
T.

Good luck -
Chris

Charles Thomas wrote in message ...
I've recently started doing some soundtrack work for a University
Department that does educational videos, creating original pieces of
music that fit the mood of the animations, doing some special effects
(foley) stuff to match the video, etc.

After years of working my butt off in bands, I find the soundtrack work
to be really exciting and fun, as well as creative. I have a nice home
studio, and all the tools necessary to write original compositions and
record them with excellent quality using a wide variety of real and
virtual instruments.

It also seems to me, being very naive and all, that there must be a ton
of commercials, low-budget movies, shorts, etc. that would dig the
chance to get soundtrack work done (i.e., original music written and
recorded) for a low price.

My questions a

1) Is this just an impossible field to get into?

2) If not, does anyone have suggestions on where I could get started?

Again, being naive, it seems like once you got a few credits under your
belt, it wouldn't be hard to stay busy. But maybe I'm totally mistaken.
I'm not thinking of this being a full-time job, but rather something I
could do part-time. Of course, if it ever evolved into full-time, that
would be great.

Thanks for any info, and I sincerely apologize if I'm asking for the
moon and stars without knowing it.

CT

P.S.

For the curious, a sample of one of these videos can be found he

http://www.loci.wisc.edu/outreach/swf/polarity.swf

In article ,
(Chris) wrote:

I'm trying to get involoved in this scene as well, and it is tough
to break into. But then again, everything is these days. It seems to
be a good fit for guys who wear a ton of hats like the
performer/composer/writer/producer/engineer/salesman type, which
hopefully will work to my advantage, since this is pretty much me to a
T.

Me too. Except for the "salesman" part.

CT

whats this topic about??


--
Ungluck
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted via MIDIBuddy - Professional MIDI Files and Music Community
http://midibuddy.net
View this thread: http://board.midibuddy.net/t66080.html

In article , Charles
Thomas wrote:

In article ,
(Chris) wrote:

be a good fit for guys who wear a ton of hats like the
performer/composer/writer/producer/engineer/salesman type, which
hopefully will work to my advantage, since this is pretty much me to a
T.

Me too. Except for the "salesman" part.

CT

Without this, you'll be in big trouble! If you don't do it, find
somebody who does and give them a percentage of whatever you make. This
is tough to find however. An experienced rep won't take you until you're
already successful, but maybe there's a local person with sales
experience in another field who may be able and willing to help.

--
Jay Frigoletto
Mastersuite
Los Angeles
promastering.com

Charles Thomas wrote in message ...
In article ,
Les Cargill wrote:

I poked around with this for a while, and it's not that easy to
find people who need the services who also have any money at all.

I feel like there must be tens of thousands of people who need the
services. Commercials, training videos and thousands of indy and/or
lower-budget films are being made every day. They're going SOMEWHERE
for their music.

I agree that the "money" part is potentially a sticking point, but I
have a suspicion that the money part is less of a difficulty than
getting in touch with the people who have the need.

But thanks for the info.

CT

I think the problem might be that a lot of places that do educational
videos or radio spots or TV commercials or whatever that need music or
soundtracks have an inhouse person or department to do this. They
probably hire musicians if need be but otherwise it stays in house.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

Charles Thomas wrote in message ...
In article ,
"area242" wrote:

just keep doing as many projects as you can. Everytime you
complete a project, add it on to your demo CD and start sending it to your
local video houses that specialize in local commercials, video game
companies...etc. and maybe you'll end up in someones very small circle of
associates known for good work.

Thanks. That was more or less the plan.

I appreciate the input.

CT

The places you would need to get hooked up with are production
companies and advertising companies. They are hooking up or
contracting out these services.



Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

Jay - atldigi wrote in message ...
In article , Charles
Thomas wrote:

In article ,
Les Cargill wrote:

I poked around with this for a while, and it's not that easy to
find people who need the services who also have any money at all.

I feel like there must be tens of thousands of people who need the
services. Commercials, training videos and thousands of indy and/or
lower-budget films are being made every day. They're going SOMEWHERE
for their music.

Usually libraries for the corporate and lower end commercials, and even
lots of the budget TV (cable and police chase type stuff). The high end
national commercial work is very competitive and takes time,
connections, and credits to get into. Low budget films always are
looking, but have no money. If you're happy working for back end that
will likely never materialize, then this is an avenue...

This is not to say that you can't get some post work. If you can get
connected to some people and offer custom music for what they are used
to paying with needle drops, and can do it quite quickly and give them a
couple options liek they'd have with a library, you can get some work.
It's not going to be glamorous or lucrative in the beginning, but you
can make a few bucks and start putting together a reel. Find the local
ad agencies, and put something slick together. They're going to want to
see you as a creative guy who can provide great service. this is the
cappucino set used to working in video edit houses with nice lobbies,
receptionists, and client services. It's good to know what they are used
to and expecting. One good way to get your feet wet and get a reel
happening is to "ghost write" for somebody. Find someone with work, be
it a music house, post house, or editorial shop, and do their overflow,
or low end spots they aren't interested in, or even a couple little
stingers for a larger wrk that they are scoring themselves. The client
won't know it's you in the beginning, and most of the monsy goes to the
house, but you can put the stuff on the reel and resume, and this helps
get you on your feet. It also gets you experience and you'll learn a lot
about the market.

There's a lot more to this, but you will learn as you go. The most
important part is to know what your customer expects (is used to) and
provide it. Show them that your stuff is just as good, just as cheap,
just as quick, and just as versatile and plentiful as the drops they
have been using. With that you build the resume and reel, and that's
what gets you to the next level when things are a bit better, but no
less predictable or steady. You'll do a lot of demo tracks that never
get picked up, hence you never get paid for. You'll be going up against
several established guys who do demos for the same spot you're going
for. It's a buyers market. It's all about making relationships, keeping
them active, and a bit of "fake it 'til you make it". Being in business
for yourself take a lot of time, energy, capital, and commitment.



It is worth nothing that this part of the business (audio/video etc)
is the most faux cool cutthroaty branch of them all. Image is
everything, talent is optional. That's not to say that talent won't
get you to the top. But the point is unless you have complete
upercrust talent, you will have to rely on some other assets.

Mike http://www.mmeproductions.com

I want to know how a musician/composer could go about marketing himself
to people who need soundtrack music.

I think the advice would be the same for any business that someone is starting.
From my "research" the best way of getting more work is from word of mouth
which means working/marketing yourself to your existing customers.

With that being said get some business cards and flyers made, put your contact
information on EVERYTHING and since you're online create a web page.


Rose
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