By what criteria do you think the wire inside the box inferior? In the
crossover filter is several meters of wire, is it too not quality wire?
Do you judge the technical design poor for including this wire? Do you
think those who designed the speaker would also include wire that was not
perfectly capable of performing to the specifications of the design?
Unless you have informed answers to the above I would suggest leaving the
wire as it is. If you doubt the technical qualifications or honesty of
the manufacture, then you should perhaps sell this product for being a
failure.

Hello everyone

I'm planning to change all inner wirings of 804, as they are quite
poor compared to general quality of finishing and sound.
Has anyone made these kind of modifications on nautilus ser. or even
better if on 804? Any special instructions, pics or hints are welcome,
like to know where am I heading.

BRGDS
Riku

wrote in message ...
By what criteria do you think the wire inside the box inferior? In the
crossover filter is several meters of wire, is it too not quality wire?
Do you judge the technical design poor for including this wire? Do you
think those who designed the speaker would also include wire that was not
perfectly capable of performing to the specifications of the design?
Unless you have informed answers to the above I would suggest leaving the
wire as it is. If you doubt the technical qualifications or honesty of
the manufacture, then you should perhaps sell this product for being a
failure.

It doesn't work exactly like that. Designs from even great factories can
usually easily be improved. Only in the last few years have there been
completely tweeked assembly line luidspeakers. It's kinda like asking
yourself could a good Mercedes be improved by AMG, or a good Ford Mustang be
improved by Cobra. (Cooper and Mini also come to mind) There are reasons for
this. Big names with pricing in the regular guy's budget have to play it
safe and often purposely de-tune an otherwise aggressive design voor
economic and sometimes marketing reasons. Also technology moves on. I would
not want the inductors from 10 years ago in my speakers.

Hello everyone

I'm planning to change all inner wirings of 804, as they are quite
poor compared to general quality of finishing and sound.
Has anyone made these kind of modifications on nautilus ser. or even
better if on 804? Any special instructions, pics or hints are welcome,
like to know where am I heading.

BRGDS
Riku

My questions stand as is, if there is no reason to think otherwise, the
wire is as good for it's purpose as it gets, possible exceptions being
such things as the gauge is too small etc. , but this would be revealed in
answering the questions. If one thinks the wire lacks the majic ingredient
known only to exist in wire other then that used in the speaker, well what
can one say; and how exactly does one not know it does not exist in the
existing wire and in spades. The manufacture would have to be very
desperate for cash to skimp on a few inches of wire gauge, in which case
the entire design would be suspect and support for tossing the product
well considered. A more likely diagnosis in this instance is audio
nervosa.


By what criteria do you think the wire inside the box inferior? In the
crossover filter is several meters of wire, is it too not quality wire?
Do you judge the technical design poor for including this wire? Do you
think those who designed the speaker would also include wire that was not
perfectly capable of performing to the specifications of the design?
Unless you have informed answers to the above I would suggest leaving the
wire as it is. If you doubt the technical qualifications or honesty of
the manufacture, then you should perhaps sell this product for being a
failure.

It doesn't work exactly like that. Designs from even great factories can
usually easily be improved. Only in the last few years have there been
completely tweeked assembly line luidspeakers. It's kinda like asking
yourself could a good Mercedes be improved by AMG, or a good Ford Mustang be
improved by Cobra. (Cooper and Mini also come to mind) There are reasons for
this. Big names with pricing in the regular guy's budget have to play it
safe and often purposely de-tune an otherwise aggressive design voor
economic and sometimes marketing reasons. Also technology moves on. I would
not want the inductors from 10 years ago in my speakers.

Hello everyone

I'm planning to change all inner wirings of 804, as they are quite
poor compared to general quality of finishing and sound.
Has anyone made these kind of modifications on nautilus ser. or even
better if on 804? Any special instructions, pics or hints are welcome,
like to know where am I heading.

BRGDS
Riku

wrote in message ...
My questions stand as is, if there is no reason to think otherwise, the
wire is as good for it's purpose as it gets, possible exceptions being
such things as the gauge is too small etc. , but this would be revealed in
answering the questions. If one thinks the wire lacks the majic ingredient
known only to exist in wire other then that used in the speaker, well what
can one say; and how exactly does one not know it does not exist in the
existing wire and in spades. The manufacture would have to be very
desperate for cash to skimp on a few inches of wire gauge, in which case
the entire design would be suspect and support for tossing the product
well considered. A more likely diagnosis in this instance is audio
nervosa.

All factories for all kinds of products, excepting exotica, scimp all the
time to bring their product into budget which is a must in a competitive
economy. The production cost of a speaker is typically about 15 to 20% of
its MSRP which doesn't leave much room for splurging. Then the designer's
proverbial woody from his proud concept usually gets limp when the bean
counters tell him to make it 25% cheaper. The crossover and connecting wire
is exactly where loudspeakers tend to scimp almost without exception. This
is because unitl recently, the typical consumer knew nothing about this part
of the speaker, and you can scimp there to a certain extent. But in past
years your speaker had to have a "kevlar cone, kapton former, neodynium
magnet, super re-enforced cabinet, ect." to be cool enough to sell so those
expensive quality, but also marketable bits have to be in there, so where
else can you save. Now I wholehartedly agree with you in saying that if a
speaker makes you happy leave it alone. That's what it is there for. But if
one dares to go inside you will almost certainly find something worth
replacing.

Speaker manufacturing is no Walhalla and it is somewhat like sausage. You
don't really want to know what's in there because you may be disappointed.

Wessel


By what criteria do you think the wire inside the box inferior? In the
crossover filter is several meters of wire, is it too not quality wire?
Do you judge the technical design poor for including this wire? Do you
think those who designed the speaker would also include wire that was
not
perfectly capable of performing to the specifications of the design?
Unless you have informed answers to the above I would suggest leaving
the
wire as it is. If you doubt the technical qualifications or honesty of
the manufacture, then you should perhaps sell this product for being a
failure.

It doesn't work exactly like that. Designs from even great factories can
usually easily be improved. Only in the last few years have there been
completely tweeked assembly line luidspeakers. It's kinda like asking
yourself could a good Mercedes be improved by AMG, or a good Ford Mustang
be
improved by Cobra. (Cooper and Mini also come to mind) There are reasons
for
this. Big names with pricing in the regular guy's budget have to play it
safe and often purposely de-tune an otherwise aggressive design voor
economic and sometimes marketing reasons. Also technology moves on. I
would
not want the inductors from 10 years ago in my speakers.

Hello everyone

I'm planning to change all inner wirings of 804, as they are quite
poor compared to general quality of finishing and sound.
Has anyone made these kind of modifications on nautilus ser. or even
better if on 804? Any special instructions, pics or hints are welcome,
like to know where am I heading.

BRGDS
Riku

"Wessel Dirksen" wrote:

wrote in message ...
My questions stand as is, if there is no reason to think otherwise, the
wire is as good for it's purpose as it gets, possible exceptions being
such things as the gauge is too small etc. , but this would be revealed in
answering the questions. If one thinks the wire lacks the majic ingredient
known only to exist in wire other then that used in the speaker, well what
can one say; and how exactly does one not know it does not exist in the
existing wire and in spades. The manufacture would have to be very
desperate for cash to skimp on a few inches of wire gauge, in which case
the entire design would be suspect and support for tossing the product
well considered. A more likely diagnosis in this instance is audio
nervosa.

I agree with this :-)

All factories for all kinds of products, excepting exotica, scimp all the
time to bring their product into budget which is a must in a competitive
economy. The production cost of a speaker is typically about 15 to 20% of
its MSRP which doesn't leave much room for splurging. Then the designer's
proverbial woody from his proud concept usually gets limp when the bean
counters tell him to make it 25% cheaper. The crossover and connecting wire
is exactly where loudspeakers tend to scimp almost without exception.

But you can't save much money on a few inches or feet of internal wire. And
even if you could don't forget that some internal wiring, like apparently too
small wire or inductor with same, may actually contain a "hidden" resistor and
your wire substution may actually be compromising a given crossover function.

Another interesting side of DIY modifications is that while I heartily endorse
such IF they actually improve the product. But you practically never see
engineering verification of improvements.In the latter regard I guessing that
the most common at-home "upgrades" to speakers simply involves replacing parts
(wires, caps, inductors, resisitors) with more expensive parts that weren't
sound qualilty limiting in the first place.

(Nousaine) wrote in message ...
"Wessel Dirksen" wrote:

wrote in message ...
My questions stand as is, if there is no reason to think otherwise, the
wire is as good for it's purpose as it gets, possible exceptions being
such things as the gauge is too small etc. , but this would be revealed in
answering the questions. If one thinks the wire lacks the majic ingredient
known only to exist in wire other then that used in the speaker, well what
can one say; and how exactly does one not know it does not exist in the
existing wire and in spades. The manufacture would have to be very
desperate for cash to skimp on a few inches of wire gauge, in which case
the entire design would be suspect and support for tossing the product
well considered. A more likely diagnosis in this instance is audio
nervosa.

I agree with this :-)

All factories for all kinds of products, excepting exotica, scimp all the
time to bring their product into budget which is a must in a competitive
economy. The production cost of a speaker is typically about 15 to 20% of
its MSRP which doesn't leave much room for splurging. Then the designer's
proverbial woody from his proud concept usually gets limp when the bean
counters tell him to make it 25% cheaper. The crossover and connecting wire
is exactly where loudspeakers tend to scimp almost without exception.

But you can't save much money on a few inches or feet of internal wire. And
even if you could don't forget that some internal wiring, like apparently too
small wire or inductor with same, may actually contain a "hidden" resistor and
your wire substution may actually be compromising a given crossover function.

Another interesting side of DIY modifications is that while I heartily endorse
such IF they actually improve the product. But you practically never see
engineering verification of improvements.In the latter regard I guessing that
the most common at-home "upgrades" to speakers simply involves replacing parts
(wires, caps, inductors, resisitors) with more expensive parts that weren't
sound qualilty limiting in the first place.


Hello to all

Well well, you all made your points while I was out.
Nervosa, don't think so, this is a hobby.
Last Thursday I opened my 804 and were convinced to go on with this
project,
wires really are poor and there are many unnecessary connections made
with tab terminals. Before I opened 804, I was afraid that this
modification is hard to complete (glueing and stuff), but it's not,
everything is more or less loose and easy to change. I'm not going to
touch on crossover components, because I have no way to measure the
"end result". Tested Goertz MI 1 gables whole weekend and choosed to
use that (flexible, good sound and not too
expensive)http://www.alphacore.com/mispeaker.html .
Another high class speaker manufacturer uses also Alpha-core cables on
inner wirings, but right now I can't remember which one.
Seals are also poor, there are actually no seal at all under the
connection panel (it actually whistles when played loud) and one seal
which was under bass was heavily wrinkled.
Maybe newer speakers are finished more carefully, maybe not, we will
see when friend of mine does the same modifications as I do. We have
already compared differences between our 804, he has serial number
around 15000 and I have serial around 3500. Bottom plate is made out
of plastic and mine is made from wood. His spikes are very loose, and
there are absolutely nothing that can be done to improve those without
dramatic changes (bottom plate and threads has to be unattached before
anything can be done). Bass cones are different.

This is not the first modification for me, succeed with Marantz
CD17mkII.
Amp and pre-amp are totally home made. It tooked about one year to
finish those.
Amps compete with Classe CA-100, not with power, but sound quality.
Pure A-class, nominal power 20W with lot's of considerable low
distortion overdriving capability, maybe 50W. Anyway, the power is not
the point, overall sound quality is.

Think that we are having a good conversation here and your opinions
are always welcome, but please do not judge people by "but this would
be revealed in answering the questions". I rather listen music than
surf on the internet and that's why I don't have net at home.

BRGDS
Riku

"Nousaine" wrote in message
...
"Wessel Dirksen" wrote:

wrote in message
...
My questions stand as is, if there is no reason to think otherwise, the
wire is as good for it's purpose as it gets, possible exceptions being
such things as the gauge is too small etc. , but this would be revealed
in
answering the questions. If one thinks the wire lacks the majic
ingredient
known only to exist in wire other then that used in the speaker, well
what
can one say; and how exactly does one not know it does not exist in the
existing wire and in spades. The manufacture would have to be very
desperate for cash to skimp on a few inches of wire gauge, in which
case
the entire design would be suspect and support for tossing the product
well considered. A more likely diagnosis in this instance is audio
nervosa.

I agree with this :-)

All factories for all kinds of products, excepting exotica, scimp all the
time to bring their product into budget which is a must in a competitive
economy. The production cost of a speaker is typically about 15 to 20% of
its MSRP which doesn't leave much room for splurging. Then the designer's
proverbial woody from his proud concept usually gets limp when the bean
counters tell him to make it 25% cheaper. The crossover and connecting
wire
is exactly where loudspeakers tend to scimp almost without exception.

But you can't save much money on a few inches or feet of internal wire.
And
even if you could don't forget that some internal wiring, like apparently
too
small wire or inductor with same, may actually contain a "hidden" resistor
and
your wire substution may actually be compromising a given crossover
function.

Another interesting side of DIY modifications is that while I heartily
endorse
such IF they actually improve the product. But you practically never see
engineering verification of improvements.In the latter regard I guessing
that
the most common at-home "upgrades" to speakers simply involves replacing
parts
(wires, caps, inductors, resisitors) with more expensive parts that
weren't
sound qualilty limiting in the first place.

You can never measure the difference at this level. Even with the very best
24bit/192 kHz equipment and the most modern method of analysis, you are
measuring with very, very elementary and crude waveforms which will never
simulate a complex musical waveform. Let's suppose that from the factory the
speakers look really flat, say +/- 1 dB (although this is never the case).
After even a thorough tweeking they will still look just as flat but may
sound much, much better. The improvement in this theoretical scenario is not
in the flatness of the curve but in the preservation of the integrity of the
signal getting to your ears. Many speakers can also be hugely improved by
optimizing the diffractive properties of transmission, inside and outside of
the cabinet.

wrote in message ...
I'm planning to change all inner wirings of 804, as they are quite
poor compared to general quality of finishing and sound.
Has anyone made these kind of modifications on nautilus ser. or even
better if on 804? Any special instructions, pics or hints are welcome,
like to know where am I heading.
By what criteria do you think the wire inside the box inferior? In the
crossover filter is several meters of wire, is it too not quality wire?

And what say ye about the fact that the poor wretched woofer itself
is wired wth probably FORTY FEET of VERY small (probably on the order
of 28-31 gauge), VERY ordinary, decidedly non-magic copper wire.
Precisely HOW much effect does on thing that replacing a couple of
feet of 18 gauge wire with a couple o feet of magic 14 gauge wire
will have considering that it's looking through 20 times as much
that's maybe 1/10 the diameter or smaller?

Really?

"Dick Pierce" wrote in message
news:8uQVb.12175$QA2.22118@attbi_s52...
wrote in message
...
I'm planning to change all inner wirings of 804, as they are quite
poor compared to general quality of finishing and sound.
Has anyone made these kind of modifications on nautilus ser. or even
better if on 804? Any special instructions, pics or hints are welcome,
like to know where am I heading.
By what criteria do you think the wire inside the box inferior? In the
crossover filter is several meters of wire, is it too not quality wire?

And what say ye about the fact that the poor wretched woofer itself
is wired wth probably FORTY FEET of VERY small (probably on the order
of 28-31 gauge), VERY ordinary, decidedly non-magic copper wire.
Precisely HOW much effect does on thing that replacing a couple of
feet of 18 gauge wire with a couple o feet of magic 14 gauge wire
will have considering that it's looking through 20 times as much
that's maybe 1/10 the diameter or smaller?

Really?

Hi Dick,

Strangely enough, if the internals have, say 18 gauge alloy wire, replacing
it does often make an audible difference. It's usually subtle but obvious.
Getting rid of series electrolytic caps and replacing them with equal value
film caps, if the value is smaller than about 100 micF or so, is also even
more audible. A weird as it may sound, even beefing up a ground (-)
connection, even to a tweeter circuit can lead to obvious improvement in the
details, depending on the circuit. This has repeatably and reliably been
proven in the almost 20 or so years I've been doing this stuff. And I'm very
sceptical about audiophile pseudo science, but I take every reasonable claim
seriously until I, and other reliable ears, hear otherwise.

Dick, you're a famous guy and as a newcomer to these newsgroups it's really
cool to be able to communicate with you like this. As a respected technicall
y oriented scientist, you must also realize that we don't know what's going
on the micro level because we don't have the observable picture pegged at
the electron level yet. If you look at fluid flow dynamics which is much
more "observable" than electrons, it is obvious that even when micro level
flow turbulence occurs, it can contribute significantly to the output. Also,
I'm curious of something which maybe you can give feedback on. Intuitively I
feel there is a difference between what happens to the signal at the voice
coil and what happens to the signal getting to the voice coil. At the voice
coil level, tranduction is occuring, the large impedance characteristic of
the wire at that point is an inherent part of this process. Also the voice
coil quality, be it in the composition of the metals, how hot it gets while
doing its thing, or even how it is wrapped also contributes to the signal
integrity.

Wessel