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Racing and Sports Car Chassis Design
By Michael Costin and David Phipps
Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a *really* fast car in your garage. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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In article , says...
By Michael Costin and David Phipps Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a *really* fast car in your garage. Take a look around this site to see said principles being put into practice.. http://www.knutspeed.com/mar30.asp T. -- Please Tony, NO!! You'd look dreadful in a basque and fishnets.. |
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In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes By Michael Costin and David Phipps Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a *really* fast car in your garage. I've got an original edition of that one as well! A classic work from the early 60s. -- Chris Morriss |
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
By Michael Costin and David Phipps Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a *really* fast car in your garage. We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis department at Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s. |
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In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote: Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a *really* fast car in your garage. We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis department at Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s. Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear axles? -- *Age is a very high price to pay for maturity. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:11:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Arny Krueger wrote: Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a *really* fast car in your garage. We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis department at Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s. Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear axles? Tee hee! Well, it had to better than what Chevrolet did with indy rear suspension in the Corvair......................... Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette! -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
Tee hee! Well, it had to better than what Chevrolet did with indy rear suspension in the Corvair......................... It was fine as long as you maintained the correct tire pressures. :-) Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette! Leaf springs are good. Suspension and location combined. My last car had leaves at the back and torsion bars at the front. -- Eiron. |
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In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:11:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Arny Krueger wrote: Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a *really* fast car in your garage. We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis department at Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s. Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear axles? Tee hee! Well, it had to better than what Chevrolet did with indy rear suspension in the Corvair......................... Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette! Nothing wrong with the Corvair, in the Mk2 form with semi-trailing arm rear suspension it handled quite well, and was one of the few interesting American cars ever made. (IMO of course!) Don't believe what Nader said; he wasn't (and still isn't) someone to believe a word of. -- Chris Morriss |
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In message , Eiron
writes Stewart Pinkerton wrote: Tee hee! Well, it had to better than what Chevrolet did with indy rear suspension in the Corvair......................... It was fine as long as you maintained the correct tire pressures. :-) Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette! Leaf springs are good. Suspension and location combined. My last car had leaves at the back and torsion bars at the front. NOOOOOOoooo! Don't ever combine the suspension and location in one device. Good God man, many of us here are engineers. -- Chris Morriss |
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In article ,
Eiron wrote: Leaf springs are good. Suspension and location combined. Ie, cheap. My last car had leaves at the back and torsion bars at the front. Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do they locate well. -- *With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Eiron wrote:
Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette! Leaf springs are good. s****** |
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Chris Morriss wrote:
Nothing wrong with the Corvair, in the Mk2 form with semi-trailing arm rear suspension it handled quite well, and was one of the few interesting American cars ever made. (IMO of course!) Don't believe what Nader said; he wasn't (and still isn't) someone to believe a word of. Would you like to comment on the original Corvair? Wasn't that more interesting than the Mk2? -- Eiron. |
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Jon Yaeger wrote:
Would you like to comment on the original Corvair? Wasn't that more interesting than the Mk2? *** It got real interesting when it was rear-ended! No, that was the Pinto. The Corvair rear-ended itself. -- Eiron. |
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In message , Eiron
writes Chris Morriss wrote: Nothing wrong with the Corvair, in the Mk2 form with semi-trailing arm rear suspension it handled quite well, and was one of the few interesting American cars ever made. (IMO of course!) Don't believe what Nader said; he wasn't (and still isn't) someone to believe a word of. Would you like to comment on the original Corvair? Wasn't that more interesting than the Mk2? Don't know, I've only ever driven a Mk2 version (the 2-door body), and I wouldn't mind owning one. -- Chris Morriss |
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In message , Eiron
writes Jon Yaeger wrote: Would you like to comment on the original Corvair? Wasn't that more interesting than the Mk2? *** It got real interesting when it was rear-ended! No, that was the Pinto. The Corvair rear-ended itself. Nothing wrong with the better sort of rear-engined cars, I've owned quite a few, including an Alpine-Renault GTA turbo. But the best handling of all was a much-loved Hillman Imp. -- Chris Morriss |
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
In article , Arny Krueger wrote: Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a *really* fast car in your garage. We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis department at Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s. Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear axles? Yes and no. In some areas they were moving towards them and in some they were moving away. Rigid rear axles aren't necessarily a bad thing - the well-known De Dion rear suspension comes to mind, as does the use of beam rear axles in front-wheel-drive vehicles. As with all engineering approaches, the best solution comes out of the requirements, and the requirements can vary. |
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 14:11:51 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Arny Krueger wrote: Please forget amateurish delusional posturing by the seriously mentally ill Andre Jute. This is the seminal text on building a *really* fast car in your garage. We had a copy kicking around the Advanced Chassis Analysis department at Chrysler (US) when I worked there back in the 70s. Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear axles? Tee hee! Well, it had to better than what Chevrolet did with indy rear suspension in the Corvair......................... Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette! Not to split hairs, but there are not leaf springs at the rear of a Corvette. There is a single leaf which fills the role of what would otherwise be two separate springs. Typical implementation pictu http://www.hpsalvage.com/Correar.htm Commentary: http://www.autoswalk.com/chevcorc5.html "The configuration was relatively familiar: unequal-length control arms, a transverse plastic leaf spring, tubular shocks and an anti-roll bar up front, and unequal-length control arms with a toe control link, a transverse plastic leaf spring, tubular shocks and an anti-roll bar in the rear." |
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
In article , Eiron wrote: Leaf springs are good. Suspension and location combined. Ie, cheap. My last car had leaves at the back and torsion bars at the front. Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do they locate well. Friction in leaf springs comes from slippage between the leaves. Mono-leaf springs obviously avoid that. |
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"Chris Morriss" wrote in message
Nothing wrong with the Corvair, in the Mk2 form with semi-trailing arm rear suspension it handled quite well, and was one of the few interesting American cars ever made. (IMO of course!) I owned a 1965 Corvair 140 hp/4-speed for about 6 years. I upgraded it with Michlen radial ply tires for better stability since its initial stability was poor. IME it was a fairly unstable car - prone to oversteer at all speeds. I survived 3 high-speed (60-80 mph) spin-outs on dry or only slightly damp pavement, one of which included 3 go-arounds. Don't believe what Nader said; he wasn't (and still isn't) someone to believe a word of. He was right about the Corvair (both versions) being unstable. The earlier version was very bad, while the later version was merely bad. What is less well-known is that there have been quite a few cars, even front wheel drive front engine cars that are prone to cyclic yaw instability at high speeds. |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 19:00:41 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Eiron wrote: Leaf springs are good. Suspension and location combined. Ie, cheap. My last car had leaves at the back and torsion bars at the front. Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do they locate well. Actually, to be fair, I should point out that the current 'vette uses a single composite transverse leaf spring, which works pretty well. It's still a good laughing point, though! :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote: Would that be when they were considering moving away from rigid rear axles? Yes and no. In some areas they were moving towards them and in some they were moving away. Rigid rear axles aren't necessarily a bad thing - the well-known De Dion rear suspension comes to mind, as does the use of beam rear axles in front-wheel-drive vehicles. Both of which remove the torque reaction that is a big problem with an all in one rigid rear axle on a powerful car. And removes much of the unsprung weight. And allows independent movement of the wheels in the vertical plane - in the case of a DeDion. Which has other problems. As with all engineering approaches, the best solution comes out of the requirements, and the requirements can vary. For a RWD, the only decent solution is a form of double wishbone - or multi-link type as used by BMW and others. Everything else is a cost saving cludge. -- *The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote: Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do they locate well. Friction in leaf springs comes from slippage between the leaves. Mono-leaf springs obviously avoid that. But then can't be progressive rate. And having to be made out of expensive steel, cost more - and don't do the job as well as a coil spring and decent axle location. -- *If vegetable oil comes from vegetables, where does baby oil come from? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:47:11 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote: Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette! No, they do not, and they have not for decades. Get real. |
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:32:09 GMT, dizzy wrote:
On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 17:47:11 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton wrote: Note, they still use leaf springs at the back of the Corvette! No, they do not, and they have not for decades. Get real. Look at the rear suspension of a 2005 C6 Corvette, and tell me what you see supporting the wheels. Now trot down to the store and see if they have a sense of humour on sale. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 00:01:32 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Arny Krueger wrote: Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do they locate well. Friction in leaf springs comes from slippage between the leaves. Mono-leaf springs obviously avoid that. But then can't be progressive rate. And having to be made out of expensive steel, cost more - and don't do the job as well as a coil spring and decent axle location. Actually, the leaf spring at the back of the C6 Corvette is made out of reinforced plastic, and certainly works as well as would a coil. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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Actually Corvair people love Nader, because without him the second
series Corvair never would have been: they'd have given it a cosmetic lift in '64 and discontinued it entirely in '66 because -(music: 'I've heard That Song Before'...)-it was expensive to build. People are still working out new ways to use Corvair engines in experimental aircraft! But he is totally bereft of technical knowledge, and is a textbook fascist to boot. The only thing Chrysler did that was technically interesting at all after the 50's was the aborted turbine car project. It actually did make a huge amount of money, but not for Chrysler: Huebner's sidekick Sam Williams founded WIlliams Research and made a colossal fortune from super-profit-margin turbine engines. And their electronic ignition is still the simplest and best-I know of Corvairs fitted with the /6 reluctor and pickup and the Mopar control box. |
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By double wishbone, you mean unequal-length A-arms,I take it? Some good
road racers used the deDion AFAIK. |
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
In article , Arny Krueger wrote: Leaf springs don't act as a true spring - too much friction. Nor do they locate well. Friction in leaf springs comes from slippage between the leaves. Mono-leaf springs obviously avoid that. But then can't be progressive rate. Not true. Leaf springs tend to be variable-rate like it or not, because their geometry keeps changing as they are deformed. And having to be made out of expensive steel, You can't make any kind of spring out of cheap steep. Coil springs are made out of expensive steel as well. Either that, or they sag or break. cost more - and don't do the job as well as a coil spring and decent axle location. I think that you will find that the rear axle of a C5 or C6 Corvette is very well-located. Just because the spring is a leaf puts few constraints on the rest of the suspension design. |
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In article .com,
wrote: By double wishbone, you mean unequal-length A-arms,I take it? Yup. Of course the problem is they need to be a decent length to give good travel for comfort, and take up a lot of room. Some good road racers used the deDion AFAIK. Yes - it's a good system, but costly to make. And you can't alter the camber to balance oversteer/understeer characteristics, so rather out of favour these days. -- *Who are these kids and why are they calling me Mom? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Andre, (if you're reading this). I sent a couple of emails to you
regarding the sale of the book. They were to your 'fiultra' address. Have you got them, or is this address a black hole? Regards, -- Chris Morriss |