Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
Is there a way to totally purge XP of all of its audio drivers and codecs
without reinstalling the operating system? Just deleting them from Device Manager doesn't seem to do the trick. Hopefully there is a utility somewhere. Skype is spitting and stuttering on my third computer. While the problem is apparently with Skype, I'm betting that even Skype will work correctly with a virgin installation. Lots of people complain about audio stuttering in Skype, but Skype's official response is, "it's not our problem." They're wrong. I've been doing this too long to know better. |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:27:21 -0400, mcp6453 wrote:
Is there a way to totally purge XP of all of its audio drivers and codecs without reinstalling the operating system? Just deleting them from Device Manager doesn't seem to do the trick. Hopefully there is a utility somewhere. Skype is spitting and stuttering on my third computer. While the problem is apparently with Skype, I'm betting that even Skype will work correctly with a virgin installation. Lots of people complain about audio stuttering in Skype, but Skype's official response is, "it's not our problem." They're wrong. I've been doing this too long to know better. Whenever I have had Skype stutter it has been a problem in the Internet. I've never had a problem with any of my windows-based machine, although I daresay it is possible to screw one up to the point where the audio no longer works properly. I wouldn't be blaming Windows for that too readily though. d |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/18/2011 8:11 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:27:21 -0400, mcp6453 wrote: Is there a way to totally purge XP of all of its audio drivers and codecs without reinstalling the operating system? Just deleting them from Device Manager doesn't seem to do the trick. Hopefully there is a utility somewhere. Skype is spitting and stuttering on my third computer. While the problem is apparently with Skype, I'm betting that even Skype will work correctly with a virgin installation. Lots of people complain about audio stuttering in Skype, but Skype's official response is, "it's not our problem." They're wrong. I've been doing this too long to know better. Whenever I have had Skype stutter it has been a problem in the Internet. I've never had a problem with any of my windows-based machine, although I daresay it is possible to screw one up to the point where the audio no longer works properly. I wouldn't be blaming Windows for that too readily though. I don't think it is a Windows problem. It is a Skype problem. However, the only configuration to which I have access is Windows. Skype works on some systems but not others. The newer updates are known to be extremely buggy. That's what I believe I am experiencing. The problem is not the Internet. Skype has the ability to test the audio output directly from the program (Tools | Options | Audio Settings). The audio stutters from there. |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 08:29:04 -0400, mcp6453 wrote:
On 6/18/2011 8:11 AM, Don Pearce wrote: On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:27:21 -0400, mcp6453 wrote: Is there a way to totally purge XP of all of its audio drivers and codecs without reinstalling the operating system? Just deleting them from Device Manager doesn't seem to do the trick. Hopefully there is a utility somewhere. Skype is spitting and stuttering on my third computer. While the problem is apparently with Skype, I'm betting that even Skype will work correctly with a virgin installation. Lots of people complain about audio stuttering in Skype, but Skype's official response is, "it's not our problem." They're wrong. I've been doing this too long to know better. Whenever I have had Skype stutter it has been a problem in the Internet. I've never had a problem with any of my windows-based machine, although I daresay it is possible to screw one up to the point where the audio no longer works properly. I wouldn't be blaming Windows for that too readily though. I don't think it is a Windows problem. It is a Skype problem. However, the only configuration to which I have access is Windows. Skype works on some systems but not others. The newer updates are known to be extremely buggy. That's what I believe I am experiencing. The problem is not the Internet. Skype has the ability to test the audio output directly from the program (Tools | Options | Audio Settings). The audio stutters from there. Do other audio programmes behave ok? Specifically ones that use the audio inputs - recording for instance. d |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/18/2011 8:55 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 08:29:04 -0400, mcp6453 wrote: On 6/18/2011 8:11 AM, Don Pearce wrote: On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:27:21 -0400, mcp6453 wrote: Is there a way to totally purge XP of all of its audio drivers and codecs without reinstalling the operating system? Just deleting them from Device Manager doesn't seem to do the trick. Hopefully there is a utility somewhere. Skype is spitting and stuttering on my third computer. While the problem is apparently with Skype, I'm betting that even Skype will work correctly with a virgin installation. Lots of people complain about audio stuttering in Skype, but Skype's official response is, "it's not our problem." They're wrong. I've been doing this too long to know better. Whenever I have had Skype stutter it has been a problem in the Internet. I've never had a problem with any of my windows-based machine, although I daresay it is possible to screw one up to the point where the audio no longer works properly. I wouldn't be blaming Windows for that too readily though. I don't think it is a Windows problem. It is a Skype problem. However, the only configuration to which I have access is Windows. Skype works on some systems but not others. The newer updates are known to be extremely buggy. That's what I believe I am experiencing. The problem is not the Internet. Skype has the ability to test the audio output directly from the program (Tools | Options | Audio Settings). The audio stutters from there. Do other audio programmes behave ok? Specifically ones that use the audio inputs - recording for instance. Yes, everything else that I have tested behaves well. If Skype is the only application installed, it probably behaves well. These problems are usually caused by driver conflicts. Hence, if I could wipe out all of the visible and hidden drivers and codecs in XP, I may be able to solve the problem. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:13:44 -0400, mcp6453 wrote:
On 6/18/2011 8:55 AM, Don Pearce wrote: On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 08:29:04 -0400, mcp6453 wrote: On 6/18/2011 8:11 AM, Don Pearce wrote: On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 07:27:21 -0400, mcp6453 wrote: Is there a way to totally purge XP of all of its audio drivers and codecs without reinstalling the operating system? Just deleting them from Device Manager doesn't seem to do the trick. Hopefully there is a utility somewhere. Skype is spitting and stuttering on my third computer. While the problem is apparently with Skype, I'm betting that even Skype will work correctly with a virgin installation. Lots of people complain about audio stuttering in Skype, but Skype's official response is, "it's not our problem." They're wrong. I've been doing this too long to know better. Whenever I have had Skype stutter it has been a problem in the Internet. I've never had a problem with any of my windows-based machine, although I daresay it is possible to screw one up to the point where the audio no longer works properly. I wouldn't be blaming Windows for that too readily though. I don't think it is a Windows problem. It is a Skype problem. However, the only configuration to which I have access is Windows. Skype works on some systems but not others. The newer updates are known to be extremely buggy. That's what I believe I am experiencing. The problem is not the Internet. Skype has the ability to test the audio output directly from the program (Tools | Options | Audio Settings). The audio stutters from there. Do other audio programmes behave ok? Specifically ones that use the audio inputs - recording for instance. Yes, everything else that I have tested behaves well. If Skype is the only application installed, it probably behaves well. These problems are usually caused by driver conflicts. Hence, if I could wipe out all of the visible and hidden drivers and codecs in XP, I may be able to solve the problem. Has the PC been around long? I mean has it picked up the usual detritus of re-installed and changed sound cards etc that can fill it up with driver remnants that could possibly cause this? d |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:12:51 -0700, Les Cargill
wrote: mcp6453 wrote: Is there a way to totally purge XP of all of its audio drivers and codecs without reinstalling the operating system? Just deleting them from Device Manager doesn't seem to do the trick. Hopefully there is a utility somewhere. Skype is spitting and stuttering on my third computer. While the problem is apparently with Skype, I'm betting that even Skype will work correctly with a virgin installation. Stuttering is most likely because there is packet loss. Lots of people complain about audio stuttering in Skype, but Skype's official response is, "it's not our problem." They're wrong. I've been doing this too long to know better. Try another VoIP service like Yahoo Voice, if nothing else as a comparison. Better yet, get some actual results off a voip test site. http://myspeed.visualware.com/indexvoip.php d |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
mcp6453 wrote:
Is there a way to totally purge XP of all of its audio drivers and codecs without reinstalling the operating system? Just deleting them from Device Manager doesn't seem to do the trick. Hopefully there is a utility somewhere. Skype is spitting and stuttering on my third computer. While the problem is apparently with Skype, I'm betting that even Skype will work correctly with a virgin installation. Stuttering is most likely because there is packet loss. Lots of people complain about audio stuttering in Skype, but Skype's official response is, "it's not our problem." They're wrong. I've been doing this too long to know better. Try another VoIP service like Yahoo Voice, if nothing else as a comparison. -- Les Cargill |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
"mcp6453" wrote in message
... Is there a way to totally purge XP of all of its audio drivers and codecs without reinstalling the operating system? Just deleting them from Device Manager doesn't seem to do the trick. Hopefully there is a utility somewhere. Skype is spitting and stuttering on my third computer. While the problem is apparently with Skype, I'm betting that even Skype will work correctly with a virgin installation. Lots of people complain about audio stuttering in Skype, but Skype's official response is, "it's not our problem." They're wrong. I've been doing this too long to know better. It doesn't sound like a driver issue, it sounds like you're concerned that there's a conflicting codec - that the Skype audio is going through the wrong codec somehow. When I look in Device Manager, under Sound / Video controllers - Audio codecs, with options to remove (not going to test that), disable (tested and works) and to change the priority. The later is probably your best bet, but you want to raise the priority one step at a time, and reload Skype between each test so the codec picks up the new settings. Don't go to high or your system may freeze when the audio starts. Good luck, Sean |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/18/2011 8:29 AM, mcp6453 wrote:
I don't think it is a Windows problem. It is a Skype problem. However, the only configuration to which I have access is Windows. Skype works on some systems but not others. The newer updates are known to be extremely buggy. That's what I believe I am experiencing. Isn't that the way of the world these days? Things work on some systems and not others, and updates add new features that few actually need and break or remove old familiar features that work. No Skype here. I still have a telephone (and one with a rotary dial, even). -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 13:37:55 -0400, Mike Rivers
wrote: On 6/18/2011 8:29 AM, mcp6453 wrote: I don't think it is a Windows problem. It is a Skype problem. However, the only configuration to which I have access is Windows. Skype works on some systems but not others. The newer updates are known to be extremely buggy. That's what I believe I am experiencing. Isn't that the way of the world these days? Things work on some systems and not others, and updates add new features that few actually need and break or remove old familiar features that work. No Skype here. I still have a telephone (and one with a rotary dial, even). Much in demand by Foley artists, no doubt? d |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/18/2011 9:21 AM, Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:13:44 -0400, mcp6453 wrote: Yes, everything else that I have tested behaves well. If Skype is the only application installed, it probably behaves well. These problems are usually caused by driver conflicts. Hence, if I could wipe out all of the visible and hidden drivers and codecs in XP, I may be able to solve the problem. Has the PC been around long? I mean has it picked up the usual detritus of re-installed and changed sound cards etc that can fill it up with driver remnants that could possibly cause this? It's a brand new installation of Windows 7 Pro. The computer is a Lenovo 9960, which is a quad (two dual) core. As far as the current project is concerned, I'm all good to go except for one problem that I quite discovered by accident. The onboard sound card (remember, this project is podcasting) is bleeding the input audio through to the output or speaker connector. The "listen" box is not checked. I can find NO reason for the audio to be looped through. The audio bleeds through after a reboot with no applications open. It's the ADI chipset. Just to make sure I didn't do something wrong, I substituted a different computer with a similar onboard sound card. It doesn't bleed. If all else fails, I can use a PCI sound card and avoid the internal card, but doing so uses a slot that I may need. Any ideas? (This ain't exactly pro audio, but it is quiet around here.) |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/18/2011 1:37 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/18/2011 8:29 AM, mcp6453 wrote: I don't think it is a Windows problem. It is a Skype problem. However, the only configuration to which I have access is Windows. Skype works on some systems but not others. The newer updates are known to be extremely buggy. That's what I believe I am experiencing. Isn't that the way of the world these days? Things work on some systems and not others, and updates add new features that few actually need and break or remove old familiar features that work. No Skype here. I still have a telephone (and one with a rotary dial, even). When it works, Skype is amazing. It's hard to talk to someone by phone if you've spent a lot of time on Skype. When people call me on the phone, I call them back on Skype, even if I use Skype Out to call their phone. It's the best speakerphone that I've ever used. People constantly ask me what I'm talking on. Lots of people use their built in laptop mics. Those suck. I use a Heil PR40 (obviously not just for telephone calls but for other projects on the same computer.) |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
"mcp6453" wrote in message ... Yes, everything else that I have tested behaves well. If Skype is the only application installed, it probably behaves well. These problems are usually caused by driver conflicts. Hence, if I could wipe out all of the visible and hidden drivers and codecs in XP, I may be able to solve the problem. I think you might have narrowed it down to being a Skpe problem then, as everything else seems to works quite happily together. Your blaming Winidows and drivers is a bit of a stretch in the circumstances. geoff |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/18/2011 8:47 PM, geoff wrote:
"mcp6453" wrote in message ... Yes, everything else that I have tested behaves well. If Skype is the only application installed, it probably behaves well. These problems are usually caused by driver conflicts. Hence, if I could wipe out all of the visible and hidden drivers and codecs in XP, I may be able to solve the problem. I think you might have narrowed it down to being a Skpe problem then, as everything else seems to works quite happily together. Your blaming Winidows and drivers is a bit of a stretch in the circumstances. The Windows issue is how difficult it is to manage drivers and codecs. My original post was whether there was a simplified method of solving the problem. Apparently you have one. Can you share it? |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:37:26 -0400, mcp6453 wrote:
On 6/18/2011 9:21 AM, Don Pearce wrote: On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:13:44 -0400, mcp6453 wrote: Yes, everything else that I have tested behaves well. If Skype is the only application installed, it probably behaves well. These problems are usually caused by driver conflicts. Hence, if I could wipe out all of the visible and hidden drivers and codecs in XP, I may be able to solve the problem. Has the PC been around long? I mean has it picked up the usual detritus of re-installed and changed sound cards etc that can fill it up with driver remnants that could possibly cause this? It's a brand new installation of Windows 7 Pro. The computer is a Lenovo 9960, which is a quad (two dual) core. As far as the current project is concerned, I'm all good to go except for one problem that I quite discovered by accident. The onboard sound card (remember, this project is podcasting) is bleeding the input audio through to the output or speaker connector. The "listen" box is not checked. I can find NO reason for the audio to be looped through. The audio bleeds through after a reboot with no applications open. It's the ADI chipset. Just to make sure I didn't do something wrong, I substituted a different computer with a similar onboard sound card. It doesn't bleed. If all else fails, I can use a PCI sound card and avoid the internal card, but doing so uses a slot that I may need. Any ideas? (This ain't exactly pro audio, but it is quiet around here.) Well, I always disable onboard sound and fit a proper card - onboard sound has never worked properly for me. You may have identified the problem. d |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/18/2011 5:37 PM, mcp6453 wrote:
It's a brand new installation of Windows 7 Pro. The computer is a Lenovo 9960, which is a quad (two dual) core. That's a lot wrong right there. A new installation is rarely optimized for audio. Apparently Windows 7 has a problem with audio and multi-core processors. I've heard most issues are with USB audio interfaces, some with Firewire audio interfaces, but who knows? That's not related to your problem, though. That sounds like either cockpit trouble or poor hardware design with the internal sound card. Are you talking about low level leakage (which could be a grounding problem within the computer) or it's nearly as loud as the program material you want to hear and you have no way to control it? -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
"mcp6453":
If all else fails, I can use a PCI sound card and avoid the internal card, but doing so uses a slot that I may need. So, the podcast part is so important, that you rather would not spend a proper sound card on this purpose? Don´t you think, that tells enough...? And BTW, there are PCIexpress soundcards available nowadays, so you can save the PCI slots for other cards. ;-) I´d rather put in one of those, than lose nerves on stupid onboard audio issues. Of course, I don´t know, what you´re about to to with that machine, but what PCI cards does a modern PC really need? Maybe a Firewire card or so, but pretty much everything else, that you needed PCI cards for in the past, is either onboard or beyond obsolete. Phil |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/19/2011 8:58 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/18/2011 5:37 PM, mcp6453 wrote: It's a brand new installation of Windows 7 Pro. The computer is a Lenovo 9960, which is a quad (two dual) core. That's a lot wrong right there. A new installation is rarely optimized for audio. Apparently Windows 7 has a problem with audio and multi-core processors. I've heard most issues are with USB audio interfaces, some with Firewire audio interfaces, but who knows? That's not related to your problem, though. That sounds like either cockpit trouble or poor hardware design with the internal sound card. Are you talking about low level leakage (which could be a grounding problem within the computer) or it's nearly as loud as the program material you want to hear and you have no way to control it? You're absolutely right, which goes back to my original point, even if I didn't make it clearly. Computers are built for computing, not sound. My thoughts followed along the lines of a possible internal short or wiring problem that was causing input audio to bleed through to the output port. To test the theory, I muted the audio on the chip. The audio went away. In my mind, that eliminated the problem being a cross connection. Knowing that Windows 7 drivers are still not the best in many cases, I decided to try a Vista driver. It turned out to be the same driver, which is not a surprise. It would not and did not need to install again. However, while I was looking at the driver page, I focused on the "roll driver back" button. Since I've never tried it before, I clicked it. After a very brief pause, the driver version number changed to an earlier one. I immediately checked for bleed, and it was gone. Completely. It wasn't cockpit trouble. I did a podcast tonight with the new arrangement, and it worked flawlessly. If I can find a way to keep Skype from randomly picking new drivers for input and output, I'll be good to go. The Delta 1010LT allows me to run Skype, Talkshoe (using Blink), and Paltalk on the same computer with two more pairs of channels still available. The Behringer mixer I borrowed has 4 aux sends and two stereo subgroups, effectively making six sends without getting into the balancing/pan routine for individually addressing the channels in the subgroups. Earlier today, I did a webcast from my in-laws using two computers and another Behringer mixer. I never did get the output on the Griffin iMic to work, and I never got the input to work on the cheapo/crapo USB-to-RCA converter. So I got on the air using one for the input and the other for the output. The audio was flawless, but it was a pain to set up. For the reasons Mike mentions, I think I want to find a nice USB sound card with competent drivers suitable for XP and Windows 7. |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/19/2011 1:11 PM, Sean Conolly wrote:
"mcp6453" wrote in message ... On 6/18/2011 9:21 AM, Don Pearce wrote: On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:13:44 -0400, mcp6453 wrote: Yes, everything else that I have tested behaves well. If Skype is the only application installed, it probably behaves well. These problems are usually caused by driver conflicts. Hence, if I could wipe out all of the visible and hidden drivers and codecs in XP, I may be able to solve the problem. Has the PC been around long? I mean has it picked up the usual detritus of re-installed and changed sound cards etc that can fill it up with driver remnants that could possibly cause this? It's a brand new installation of Windows 7 Pro. The computer is a Lenovo 9960, which is a quad (two dual) core. Wait - before you were talking about problems in XP, but now you're saying Win 7? Which is it? Or are you using the XP VM in Win7 ? The problem is, was, and will always be on my Windows 7 computer. Sorry for the slip. All of my other computers are XP. |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 18/06/2011 12:27, mcp6453 wrote:
Is there a way to totally purge XP of all of its audio drivers and codecs without reinstalling the operating system? Just deleting them from Device Manager doesn't seem to do the trick. Hopefully there is a utility somewhere. Skype is spitting and stuttering on my third computer. While the problem is apparently with Skype, I'm betting that even Skype will work correctly with a virgin installation. Lots of people complain about audio stuttering in Skype, but Skype's official response is, "it's not our problem." They're wrong. I've been doing this too long to know better. Try some of the Sennheiser USB headphones Sennheiser PC151 / PC161 etc... These come with a USB to mic + headphone 'dongle' with a built in sound card chip. No drivers required in Win7. It shows up as a new sound device and works extremely well with Skype. G |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On Jun 19, 10:55*pm, mcp6453 wrote:
You're absolutely right, which goes back to my original point, even if I didn't make it clearly. Computers are built for computing, not sound. Maybe you can clarify further. What exactly does that mean? Digital audio involves computing at every stage, does it not? It's another task based on crunching code. Are you under the impression that a computer should be able to do spreadsheets, run factories and space vehicle launches and missions but digital audio is somehow too much to ask of it? |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
pongespob wrote:
On Jun 19, 10:55 pm, mcp6453 wrote: You're absolutely right, which goes back to my original point, even if I didn't make it clearly. Computers are built for computing, not sound. Maybe you can clarify further. What exactly does that mean? Digital audio involves computing at every stage, does it not? It's another task based on crunching code. Are you under the impression that a computer should be able to do spreadsheets, run factories and space vehicle launches and missions but digital audio is somehow too much to ask of it? It's not so much the complexity of the computing as the timing that matters when you're working on audio. Things have to happen *now*, which isn't the case when you're working on spreadsheets or controlling a machine which has a latency of a tenth of a second after the control hits it. All the other cases you give need timing precision on the order of hundredths or tenths of a second, sound has to be within a small fraction of a millisecond. For an audio CD, you have to do *all* the processing on a pair of samples within 1/44,100 of a second, before it's too late, because the next sample just arrived. For multitrack recording and manipulation, multiply by a lot, especially if the sample rate is 192KHz as used by some applications. Linux has special real-time kernels optimised for sound work, that give priority to threads involving audio programs and audio data transmission. In Windows, network traffic, especially wireless traffic can take over the whole computer for long enough to cause an audible glitch that wouldn't be noticed on almost any other application. Within limits, it doesn't matter if a cell on a spreadsheet is a bit slow being calculated as long as it's in the right order when it comes out of the printer or it's ready when the data is needed by other cells. If your sample's late, you will hear it. Even if a rocket ignites a fraction of second late, the problem can usually be rectified later. If something's late at the speaker cone, it's too late to do anything. The problem's even worse for video, of course. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
"John Williamson" wrote in message ... pongespob wrote: On Jun 19, 10:55 pm, mcp6453 wrote: You're absolutely right, which goes back to my original point, even if I didn't make it clearly. Computers are built for computing, not sound. Maybe you can clarify further. What exactly does that mean? Digital audio involves computing at every stage, does it not? It's another task based on crunching code. Are you under the impression that a computer should be able to do spreadsheets, run factories and space vehicle launches and missions but digital audio is somehow too much to ask of it? It's not so much the complexity of the computing as the timing that matters when you're working on audio. Things have to happen *now*, which isn't the case when you're working on spreadsheets or controlling a machine which has a latency of a tenth of a second after the control hits it. All the other cases you give need timing precision on the order of hundredths or tenths of a second, sound has to be within a small fraction of a millisecond. For an audio CD, you have to do *all* the processing on a pair of samples within 1/44,100 of a second, before it's too late, because the next sample just arrived. For multitrack recording and manipulation, multiply by a lot, especially if the sample rate is 192KHz as used by some applications. Just as well Windows can do all that at a doddle then. Mine processes 24 cahnnels of 24-bit 44k1 audio without breaking a sweat. Linux has special real-time kernels optimised for sound work, that give priority to threads involving audio programs and audio data transmission. That'll be why there are so many market-leading real worls applications for it then. In Windows, network traffic, especially wireless traffic can take over the whole computer for long enough to cause an audible glitch that wouldn't be noticed on almost any other application. Only if there is something wrong, or the computer is totally underpowered. The problem's even worse for video, of course. No problem dooing video stuff on my computers. geoff |
#25
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
John Williamson wrote:
pongespob wrote: On Jun 19, 10:55 pm, mcp6453 wrote: You're absolutely right, which goes back to my original point, even if I didn't make it clearly. Computers are built for computing, not sound. Maybe you can clarify further. What exactly does that mean? Digital audio involves computing at every stage, does it not? It's another task based on crunching code. Are you under the impression that a computer should be able to do spreadsheets, run factories and space vehicle launches and missions but digital audio is somehow too much to ask of it? It's not so much the complexity of the computing as the timing that matters when you're working on audio. Things have to happen *now*, which isn't the case when you're working on spreadsheets or controlling a machine which has a latency of a tenth of a second after the control hits it. All the other cases you give need timing precision on the order of hundredths or tenths of a second, sound has to be within a small fraction of a millisecond. For an audio CD, you have to do *all* the processing on a pair of samples within 1/44,100 of a second, before it's too late, because the next sample just arrived. For multitrack recording and manipulation, multiply by a lot, especially if the sample rate is 192KHz as used by some applications. Linux has special real-time kernels optimised for sound work, that give priority to threads involving audio programs and audio data transmission. In Windows, network traffic, especially wireless traffic can take over the whole computer for long enough to cause an audible glitch that wouldn't be noticed on almost any other application. If you suffer from these problems, then your computer is misconfigured. I haven't had any such problems going back to a PC-XT and Windows 3.1 with a ZA2, Turtle Beach and other cards in it over 20 years ago. The problem's even worse for video, of course. One of the other cards in that XT was a Targa board, and I had no trouble doing NLE on it. It was slow, but it worked. ;-) -- best regards, Neil |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/20/2011 5:52 PM, Neil Gould wrote:
If you suffer from these problems, then your computer is misconfigured. I haven't had any such problems going back to a PC-XT and Windows 3.1 with a ZA2, Turtle Beach and other cards in it over 20 years ago. Things were simpler back then. How many people today would be caught dead using Windows 3.1 and a Turtle Beach sound card? But they worked. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On Jun 19, 10:56*pm, mcp6453 wrote:
The problem is, was, and will always be on my Windows 7 computer. Sorry for the slip. All of my other computers are XP. You made the statement "computers are made for computing". Still waiting for you to clarify that. |
#28
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/20/2011 5:52 PM, Neil Gould wrote: If you suffer from these problems, then your computer is misconfigured. I haven't had any such problems going back to a PC-XT and Windows 3.1 with a ZA2, Turtle Beach and other cards in it over 20 years ago. Things were simpler back then. How many people today would be caught dead using Windows 3.1 and a Turtle Beach sound card? But they worked. What more can one ask for? ;-D There are certainly more choices today, but there are a lot more system resources, too. Point being that audio just isn't all that hard to get working right if you have quality components to begin with. -- best regards, Neil |
#29
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On Jun 20, 3:57*pm, John Williamson
wrote: It's not so much the complexity of the computing as the timing that matters when you're working on audio. Is it not true that people on here as well as major labels successfully produce and release material done with computers and have been doing so for some time? |
#30
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
pongespob wrote:
On Jun 20, 3:57 pm, John Williamson wrote: It's not so much the complexity of the computing as the timing that matters when you're working on audio. Is it not true that people on here as well as major labels successfully produce and release material done with computers and have been doing so for some time? Maybe not world class, but I've been using computers for sound work a couple of decades. I don't need to optimise them as much now, but it still pays to tweak a couple of things, IME. Having said that, though, modern OS's place a lot more demands on the hardware than the older ones, and I've had problems with computers that ran perfectly under XP SP1 failing to work entirely when SP3 was installed. As others have said, though, modern computers have so much power available that the limits are now with the operator, not the hardware. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ... On 6/20/2011 5:52 PM, Neil Gould wrote: If you suffer from these problems, then your computer is misconfigured. I haven't had any such problems going back to a PC-XT and Windows 3.1 with a ZA2, Turtle Beach and other cards in it over 20 years ago. Things were simpler back then. How many people today would be caught dead using Windows 3.1 and a Turtle Beach sound card? But they worked. My Tahiti and Pinnacle worked fine on XP ! geoff |
#32
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/20/2011 10:18 PM, Neil Gould wrote:
There are certainly more choices today, but there are a lot more system resources, too. Point being that audio just isn't all that hard to get working right if you have quality components to begin with. One problem is that there's a "component" for which we really can't measure quality, and that's the software - in the case of an audio I/O device, the driver. People talk about "poor quality drivers" but that just means that there's something that isn't doing its job of connecting the hardware with the operating system. This is understandably a more vast job than in the pre-Windows days because there are so many things that make the operating system more complex. This might be a "poor quality operating system" to some. They usually tell you how great Linux is. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#33
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/21/2011 7:05 AM, geoff wrote:
My Tahiti and Pinnacle worked fine on XP ! I have a Maui. I retired it in favor of a Lynx L22 by the time I got to Win98. -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#34
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
Mike Rivers wrote:
One problem is that there's a "component" for which we really can't measure quality, and that's the software - in the case of an audio I/O device, the driver. People talk about "poor quality drivers" but that just means that there's something that isn't doing its job of connecting the hardware with the operating system. This is understandably a more vast job than in the pre-Windows days because there are so many things that make the operating system more complex. Sure, we can measure it. That's what code verification is all about. The problem is that measuring it is far more difficult and expensive than writing the code in the first place, so people are not apt to do it. The good news is that measuring it is the only way to actually write good code and that people doing things like aircraft controls and mission-critical embedded stuff actually do it. What IS impossible is measuring the quality of the user interface, and that is the real rub. This might be a "poor quality operating system" to some. They usually tell you how great Linux is. Well, it can be a good operating system but not be the right tool for the job. These days we do realtime work on Windows and MacOS and Linux, and none of them really have the facilities for doing realtime operations properly. With a real realtime OS, when you make a call to the kernal, you tell it how much time you have to wait before it has to be completed, and priority between processes is constantly juggled dynamically to make sure everybody can meet deadlines properly. But people don't use real realtime OSes for audio, unless they are using an older Sonic workstation or a RADAR (which is based on BeOS). But, because computers are so cheap and fast, we throw lots of CPU at the problem, and most of the time it works just fine in spite of the fact that the OS doesn't have realtime mediation. But, sometimes it doesn't, and then people post here complaining. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#35
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote: One problem is that there's a "component" for which we really can't measure quality, and that's the software - in the case of an audio I/O device, the driver. People talk about "poor quality drivers" but that just means that there's something that isn't doing its job of connecting the hardware with the operating system. This is understandably a more vast job than in the pre-Windows days because there are so many things that make the operating system more complex. Sure, we can measure it. That's what code verification is all about. The problem is that measuring it is far more difficult and expensive than writing the code in the first place, so people are not apt to do it. The good news is that measuring it is the only way to actually write good code and that people doing things like aircraft controls and mission-critical embedded stuff actually do it. What IS impossible is measuring the quality of the user interface, and that is the real rub. The "quality" of the user interface is mostly subjective opinion. Since the user has so much control over the final configuration, those opinions probably should be based on how well they have set up their system. But, these days it's more popular to blame someone else for one's problems. This might be a "poor quality operating system" to some. They usually tell you how great Linux is. Well, it can be a good operating system but not be the right tool for the job. These days we do realtime work on Windows and MacOS and Linux, and none of them really have the facilities for doing realtime operations properly. Fortunately, audio (and video) are "slow" enough by modern CPU speeds that there should rarely be an issue caused by collisions. But, that won't get one around badly written software apps that perform as though they are the only thing happening in a multitasking environment. With a real realtime OS, when you make a call to the kernal, you tell it how much time you have to wait before it has to be completed, and priority between processes is constantly juggled dynamically to make sure everybody can meet deadlines properly. But people don't use real realtime OSes for audio, unless they are using an older Sonic workstation or a RADAR (which is based on BeOS). BeOS... I inve$ted in that company based on the quality of its OS... 8-( -- best regards, Neil |
#36
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
On 6/21/2011 7:57 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Sure, we can measure it. That's what code verification is all about. The problem is that measuring it is far more difficult and expensive than writing the code in the first place, so people are not apt to do it. The good news is that measuring it is the only way to actually write good code and that people doing things like aircraft controls and mission-critical embedded stuff actually do it. People who write code for things like aircraft controls and mission-critical embedded stuff know exactly what hardware and operating system they're writing for. But you can never be sure what the code will encounter when it tries to run on a consumer-tailored computer (more often than not tailored by the consumer). -- "Today's production equipment is IT based and cannot be operated without a passing knowledge of computing, although it seems that it can be operated without a passing knowledge of audio." - John Watkinson http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com - useful and interesting audio stuff |
#37
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
Mike Rivers writes: like aircraft controls and mission-critical embedded stuff actually do it. People who write code for things like aircraft controls and mission-critical embedded stuff know exactly what hardware and operating system they're writing for. But you can never be sure what the code will encounter when it tries to run on a consumer-tailored computer (more often than not tailored by the consumer). which is why I use dedicated devices, often with their own embedded software. every installation on a machine of mine is by definition a custom tailored system, because of the screen access. Screen access software/hardware vendors are accustomed to thinking in turns of spreadsheets word processing and the like that average office drones who are blind will have to interact with. sUpport folks for the audio hw/sw aren't used to thinking in terms of screen access, and the whole process of giving the user maingful feedback is cpu intensive anyway, and this makes for an unstable system when trying to do such a thing as simultaneous multi-track recording, etc. What I want most is a standard file format put out by these devices, standard media, this way the general purpose computing devices only have to move files around. Richard webb, replace anything before at with elspider ON site audio in the southland: see www.gatasound.com |
#38
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 6/21/2011 7:57 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: Sure, we can measure it. That's what code verification is all about. The problem is that measuring it is far more difficult and expensive than writing the code in the first place, so people are not apt to do it. The good news is that measuring it is the only way to actually write good code and that people doing things like aircraft controls and mission-critical embedded stuff actually do it. People who write code for things like aircraft controls and mission-critical embedded stuff know exactly what hardware and operating system they're writing for. But you can never be sure what the code will encounter when it tries to run on a consumer-tailored computer (more often than not tailored by the consumer). In a perfect world, you have a verified operating system, which talks to individual drivers provided by hardware manufacturers and which are individually verified. And they don't run in the same address space so the drivers can't scribble all over the kernal and vice-versa. In such a world, it doesn't matter what you do with the hardware as long as you have the proper drivers for it. Unfortunately this world doesn't exist. The closest we can come is for the hardware manufacturer to provide their own OS and a certain set of standards (like Apple does) and hope for the best. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#39
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
I Hate Windows Audio
In article , wrote:
What I want most is a standard file format put out by these devices, standard media, this way the general purpose computing devices only have to move files around. There is an AES committee promoting just that... they have come up with the Broadcast WAV format and are working on others. It is worth joining if you have a vested interest in this sort of thing. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
Reply |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Windows 7 USB Audio I/O Mystery | Pro Audio | |||
#@%&! But I HATE Fooling With Computers (Windows/Nero Question) | Pro Audio | |||
Windows Audio Quality | Pro Audio | |||
Windows Audio Quality | Pro Audio | |||
Windows XP, Midi and Audio | Pro Audio |