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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Star Quad Cable Wiring (Canare)

On 9/02/2018 10:47 AM, Linda Masterson wrote:


May I clarify, my whole studio is wired with Canare star quad cable and
I have *zero* hum.


Mine isn't, and I have zero hum !

However, I have two cables which were custom made with a TRS male
Switchcraft connector to two Neutrik XLRs for exactly like the situation
I have now except it was for a stereo output of an old Fender Princeton
Chorus and I have noticeable hum when I cranked the gain when I hooked
it up to the keyboard. Both cables. Maybe I had some hum back then and
didn't notice at the time. I am cranking gains now for test purposes.


Never heard a Fender Princeton that didn't emit hum and/or noise when
'cranked' ! Or pretty much any guitar amp for that matter, moreso any
valve/tube ones.

I wired all of my my *instrument cable* with mostly short runs as well
using star quad cable and that was done in the day. Canare did not sell
instrument cable IIRC at that time. Sure I could have used other cable
but like I said I bought a ton of this cable to begin with and am still
using it and it is not in every color of the rainbow which they make and
mine are all black except for these two blue Canare custom cables which
are both humming. Continuity tester checks out fine but having 1/4" inch
on both ends solves my hum problem because I checked with (brand) insert
cables.


Sound very comprehensive, and not an extent that I would imagine even
the most upmarket and retentive studios would find necessary (I could be
wrong ...).

.... but I hope the instrument cables do not include for passive-pickup
guitars or basses. Those 4-wires-plus-screen instead of
one-wire-plus-screen(s) probably equate to significant shunt capacitance.

geoff
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Default Star Quad Cable Wiring (Canare)

gareth magennis wrote:

-----------------------


Oh, and if you happen to connect anything else to this ungrounded keyboard,
such as a mains grounded local monitor,



** The OP's keyboard has on board amplifiers and speakers.

Remember the *only" connector is a HP jack.

IME, such units do not have enough metal shielding to exclude buzz and hum
from fluoro and dimmed domestic lighting.



...... Phil
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Default Star Quad Cable Wiring (Canare)

On 9/02/2018 1:34 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
Newserver *Eternal September* back on/up again. I borrowed another
computer and had no idea Google Groups worked so well for this newsgroup.

Say "Hello google" and then say "google groups rec dot audio dot pro"

I was told you can even dictate into Google docs with mic and then copy
and paste.

Ta da! It works with a tad bit of editing. ;-)


Careful with that - always check what it has 'recognised' before 'Go',
or you may have the cops turning up !

geoff
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Default Star Quad Cable Wiring (Canare)

gareth magennis wrote:

-----------------------


Sorry, my post probably read a bit arrogant, but I think you will find all
your problems are down to the wall wart switching adaptor.

See if you can find/borrow a suitable linear alternative to prove yes or
no.


** That is not a practical suggestion.

Yamaha supplied a SMPS adaptor because the output was high current and well regulated.

Finding a suitable *linear* alternative may prove impossible for the OP.



...... Phil
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Geoff wrote:

----------------


May I clarify, my whole studio is wired with Canare star quad cable and
I have *zero* hum.


Mine isn't, and I have zero hum !


** Painted it all green - right ?


However, I have two cables which were custom made with a TRS male
Switchcraft connector to two Neutrik XLRs for exactly like the situation
I have now except it was for a stereo output of an old Fender Princeton
Chorus and I have noticeable hum when I cranked the gain when I hooked
it up to the keyboard. Both cables. Maybe I had some hum back then and
didn't notice at the time. I am cranking gains now for test purposes.


Never heard a Fender Princeton that didn't emit hum and/or noise when
'cranked' ! Or pretty much any guitar amp for that matter, moreso any
valve/tube ones.


** See Fender Princeton Chorus pic:

https://images.reverb.com/image/uplo...g1np1q2pyb.jpg


** All SS, budget model, 2 x 25W power channels and 2 x 10 speakers.

Can operate as a stereo "slave amp".




...... Phil


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Default Star Quad Cable Wiring (Canare)

gareth magennis wrote:

------------------------


Sorry, my post probably read a bit arrogant, but I think you will find all
your problems are down to the wall wart switching adaptor.

See if you can find/borrow a suitable linear alternative to prove yes or
no.


** That is not a practical suggestion.

Yamaha supplied a SMPS adaptor because the output was high current and well
regulated.

Finding a suitable *linear* alternative may prove impossible for the OP.


If the piano has built in speakers,


** It has a HP jack and no other connectors.

yes it will have quite a hefty wall wart
supplied with it.



** It has a high current, SMPS supplied with it.


You could still test for hum/noise using a low current alternative,



** I have a 1.2V to 12V, 5A bench supply with SFA hum which could be used - I even have some 12V, SLA batteries that definitely have no hum.

But YOU are trying to tell a non technical poster what to do while failing to put yourself in her position in relation to knowing how to identify or where to start looking for an almost non-existent type of PSU.



..... Phil



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Phil Allison wrote:
gareth magennis wrote:

Oh, and if you happen to connect anything else to this ungrounded keyboard,
such as a mains grounded local monitor,

** The OP's keyboard has on board amplifiers and speakers.

Remember the *only" connector is a HP jack.

IME, such units do not have enough metal shielding to exclude buzz and hum
from fluoro and dimmed domestic lighting.


I have a little box that has 600:600 transformers in it and a shunt load
on the transformer secondary. The idea being that with a lower impedance
load, the keyboard noise is less severe. I have really only had to use it
with $10 Casio keyboards, gameboys, and the like, but it helps a bit for
the really cheap stuff.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Default Star Quad Cable Wiring (Canare)

Linda Masterson:

How close are the keyboard and mixer in
your setup? If just a few steps you could
skip all that star-quad fuss and just go
with this:

https://www.axemusic.com/hosa-stp203...wo-1-4-ts.html
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Default Star Quad Cable Wiring (Canare)

On 2/9/2018 10:57 AM, wrote:
Linda Masterson:

How close are the keyboard and mixer in
your setup? If just a few steps you could
skip all that star-quad fuss and just go
with this:

https://www.axemusic.com/hosa-stp203...wo-1-4-ts.html


12-13 feet and I have already purchased a 9 foot Livewire cable at GC
that was fine but too short at 9 feet. I am going to wire it with star
quad for grins and just compare.


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I might just purchase this for the job.

https://www.proaudiola.com/mobile/Pr...OX-SON-TWIN-ST

NOT!!!


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Linda Masterson wrote:
"I might just purchase this for the job.

https://www.proaudiola.com/mobile/Pr...OX-SON-TWIN-ST
"

Why not? No sense in overcomplicating
the solution. Do you have return rights
for the roll of star quad?
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On 2/8/2018 3:43 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:

Wiring with star quad correctly when you have balanced connections is pretty simple electrically, but can be a little fussy mechanically. Pretend it's two-conductor shielded cable. I'll assume that it has two blue wires and two white wires. Treat the two blue wires together as one conductor and the two white wires together as the other conductor. The shield is the shield.

If you were wiring a TRS plug to another TRS plug, you'd connect the two blue wires to the tips, the two white wires to the rings, and the shields to the sleeves.

But you're connecting between balanced and unbalanced ports. The fact that it's star-quad is moot. It doesn't matter that you have two wires twisted together - they aren't going to do anything special for you.

On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two white wires to the sleeve, On the T-S end, connect the two blue wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

Try it like that. You'll have a bit of unshielded wire and no sleeve connection for one of the TS plugs, but that input will get its ground through the chassis as long as the other plug is plugged in. For consistency's sake, you could run another piece of wire from the sleeve of the "grounded" plug to the sleeve of the ungrounded plug, giving it a path to the TRS plug's ground.

If you get too much hum, you could try an alternative method and use one blue-white pair for each unbalanced connection:

Let's make the blue wires "hot" for the sake of discussion. On the TRS end, connect one blue wire to the tip, the other blue wire to the ring, and the shield to the sleeve. Then, on one of the TS plugs, connect one blue wire to the tip and a white wire AND the shield to the sleeve. On the other TS plug, connect the other blue wire to the tip and the other white wire to the sleeve. A jumper between the sleeve of the two TS plugs is optional, might be necessary, or might cause more hum.

This isn't a completely predictable thing and you may need to play around with lifting grounds or adding grounds.

Also, should I change out all of my star quad cable made for instrument
cable like guitar and bass with instrument cable? I have not noticed any
signal degradation and zero hum but more testing might be in order.


Don't fix it if it isn't broken, but make sure it's not broken, or, alternatively, even if it's not broken, could it be better? This is up to you. If you switch to a low capacitance cable that's designed for instrument connection, you could be amazed, or not. And it may matter with some instruments and not others.

If I was selling cable, I'd say, sure, you need to replace that relatively high capacitance-per-foot star quad with something that will move the high-cut filter out to a higher frequency. But you won't know if it matters unless you try. Length matters, too. 10 feet of just about any cable won't hurt anything, but 25 feet or longer and you'll be more likely to hear a difference.


Mike wrote:

On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the

two white wires to the sleeve, On the T-S end, connect the two blue
wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the
other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

Mike, I think you meant to write *ring* and not *sleeve*....... On the
TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two white
wires to the †’ sleeve †, On the T-S end, connect the two blue wires to
the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the other
plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

Try it like that. You'll have a bit of unshielded wire and no

sleeve connection for one of the TS plugs, but that input will get its
ground through the chassis as long as the other plug is plugged in. For
consistency's sake, you could run another piece of wire from the sleeve
of the "grounded" plug to the sleeve of the ungrounded plug, giving it a
path to the TRS plug's ground.

At least I think you meant ring and not sleave???




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On 10/02/2018 8:37 AM, Linda Masterson wrote:
I might just purchase this for the job.

https://www.proaudiola.com/mobile/Pr...OX-SON-TWIN-ST


NOT!!!



But with its exotic construction it will transparently transfer the
(unwanted) noise from one device to the other much better.

geoff
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On 2/9/2018 2:42 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the

two white wires to the sleeve,Â* On the T-S end, connect the two blue
wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the
other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

Mike, I think you meant to write *ring* and not *sleeve*....... On the
TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two white
wires to the †’ sleeve †,Â* On the T-S end, connect the two blue wires to
the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the other
plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.


Yes, you're correct. And also, I meant connect the SHIELD to the sleeve
(on both the TRS plug and one of the TS plugs). I make that mistake a
lot, but even when I don't proofread and make a correction, people seem
to figure it out anyway. It's the only thing that makes sense when
you're using a pair of wires as a single wire.



--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Default Star Quad Cable Wiring (Canare)

On 2/9/2018 2:48 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/9/2018 2:42 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
Â* On the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect
the two white wires to the sleeve,Â* On the T-S end, connect the two
blue wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip
of the other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.

Mike, I think you meant to write *ring* and not *sleeve*....... On
the TRS end, connect the two blue wires to the tip, connect the two
white wires to the †’ sleeve †,Â* On the T-S end, connect the two blue
wires to the tip of one plug and the two white wires to the tip of the
other plug. Connect the sleeve to the sleeve of one plug.


Yes, you're correct. And also, I meant connect the SHIELD to the sleeve
(on both the TRS plug and one of the TS plugs). I make that mistake a
lot, but even when I don't proofread and make a correction, people seem
to figure it out anyway. It's the only thing that makes sense when
you're using a pair of wires as a single wire.


Cool, I have been soldering all day with different configurations of
cable with ends and am saving that one for last. Thanks for getting back
to me and I appreciate your time.


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Scott Dorsey wrote:

----------------------

Remember the *only" connector is a HP jack.

IME, such units do not have enough metal shielding to exclude buzz and hum
from fluoro and dimmed domestic lighting.




I have a little box that has 600:600 transformers in it and a shunt load
on the transformer secondary. The idea being that with a lower impedance
load, the keyboard noise is less severe. I have really only had to use it
with $10 Casio keyboards, gameboys, and the like, but it helps a bit for
the really cheap stuff.


** Grounding the common rail inside such contraptions often makes injected electrical noise from the environment worse.

When no such ground exists ( eg when the unit is on battery power ) signals tend to inject into all wiring equally, leaving little differential anywhere.

Same goes when coupled through a 1:1 transformer, with low capacitance to earth.




..... Phil
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On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
I suggested to Linda that the hum might actually be coming from the SMPS
wall wart, not the cabling.

I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
supply.


There isn't anything in a COMMERCIAL, APPROVED switching mode power
supply that can cause hum. They're surprisingly clean. Finding a
suitable substitute power supply, unless she'd bench-equipped like Phil
and me and maybe you is likely to be difficult. You need the right
voltage, pretty close to the right current, and the correct size plug
wired with the proper polarity.

If a piece of gear hums by itself, that's an equipment problem. If you
get hum when you connect it to something else, that's a system problem
and there are many places to look for solutions. In my experience, a
power supply is a possible offender, but there are other places to look
for trouble - which may include isolating the power supply from the
common system ground (which may not be the brown stuff under the house).



--

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Mike Rivers wrote:

------------------


I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
supply.



There isn't anything in a COMMERCIAL, APPROVED switching mode power
supply that can cause hum. They're surprisingly clean.


** Ones that come with your shiny new audio toy is likely to be hum free, but ones you buy on-line or pick off a shelf in a blister pak can be pretty poor.

Also, in order to comply with EMC regulations, nearly all external SMPSs have a ceramic cap bridging the internal high frequency transformer to the shield or ground on the DC output lead. Only transformer coupling eliminates the resulting high pitched buzz from other audio gear.

Finding a
suitable substitute power supply, unless she'd bench-equipped like Phil
and me and maybe you is likely to be difficult. You need the right
voltage, pretty close to the right current, and the correct size plug
wired with the proper polarity.


** I would never ask a customer to do what GM has asked the OP to do - partly because linear ( regulated or not) external DC PSUs are banned from sale here in Australia. They fall foul of minimum energy efficiency regulations.



...... Phil
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On 10/02/2018 10:16 AM, Gareth Magennis wrote:

No, I think we have our wires crossed, a la Star quad cable.

I suggested to Linda that the hum might actually be coming from the SMPS
wall wart, not the cabling.

I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
supply.

I said such power supply doesn't HAVE to have the capacity of the
original, which is capable of driving the inbuilt speakers.
I inferred it merely has to power up the piano so it is possible to
check whether the hum has gone away or not.

Even a smallish wall wart should be capable of booting and running the
piano, as long as you don't use the speakers.

If this experiment proved the original Wall Wart WAS noisy, she could
THEN start looking to procure another proper one.

Else, continue with the Star Quad shennanigans.



At least she said all along that the "Star Quad shennanigans" was simply
because she already had a ton of that cable, NOT because it would
actually solve anything. The real answer IMO is to put an isolation
transformer or DI between the headphone out and mixer. Changing the PSU
alone will probably make little difference. As will the "Star Quad
shennanigans" of course.

Trevor.



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On 2/9/2018 8:24 PM, Trevor wrote:

Which hers doesn't have since it only has a headphone jack. I'd be
surprised if anything without a proper output socket is any more than a
toy though. (in fact I even have a TOY keyboard with proper MIDI sockets
and R+L/M sockets, so it's probably a cheap toy at that!) So I'm
wondering why the hell she is going to all the trouble in the first
place? A REAL keyboard would be my suggestion.

Trevor.


I am currently testing for the best wiring configuration. This $300.00
Yamaha keyboard's sampled sounds are much better than many of my other
keyboards costing $2500.00 and $3000.00 from yesteryear. Talk to Jack
Black and *many* others. Call it a toy, I have no earthly care. :-)



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On 10/02/2018 3:46 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
On 2/9/2018 8:24 PM, Trevor wrote:
Which hers doesn't have since it only has a headphone jack. I'd be
surprised if anything without a proper output socket is any more than
a toy though. (in fact I even have a TOY keyboard with proper MIDI
sockets and R+L/M sockets, so it's probably a cheap toy at that!) So
I'm wondering why the hell she is going to all the trouble in the
first place? A REAL keyboard would be my suggestion.

I am currently testing for the best wiring configuration. This $300.00
Yamaha keyboard's sampled sounds are much better than many of my other
keyboards costing $2500.00 and $3000.00 from yesteryear.


Yep, I still have an Ensoniq Mirage it might even beat! :-)
But that doesn't mean I'd want to use it!


Call it a toy, I have no earthly care. :-)


Nor I, it's *your* time and money.
Oh wait, and all the people here trying to help you too I guess. Most of
the real answers you choose to ignore. :-(

Trevor.


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On 10/02/2018 2:29 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
I suggested to Linda that the hum might actually be coming from the
SMPS wall wart, not the cabling.

I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
supply.


There isn't anything in a COMMERCIAL, APPROVED switching mode power
supply that can cause hum. They're surprisingly clean. Finding a
suitable substitute power supply, unless she'd bench-equipped like Phil
and me and maybe you is likely to be difficult. You need the right
voltage, pretty close to the right current, and the correct size plug
wired with the proper polarity.

If a piece of gear hums by itself, that's an equipment problem. If you
get hum when you connect it to something else, that's a system problem
and there are many places to look for solutions. In my experience, a
power supply is a possible offender, but there are other places to look
for trouble - which may include isolating the power supply from the
common system ground (which may not be the brown stuff under the house).


Yes it is possibly (likely ?) the keyboard itself causing the problems -
not just its power supply.

geoff
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On 10/02/2018 5:46 PM, Linda Masterson wrote:
On 2/9/2018 8:24 PM, Trevor wrote:

Which hers doesn't have since it only has a headphone jack. I'd be
surprised if anything without a proper output socket is any more than
a toy though. (in fact I even have a TOY keyboard with proper MIDI
sockets and R+L/M sockets, so it's probably a cheap toy at that!) So
I'm wondering why the hell she is going to all the trouble in the
first place? A REAL keyboard would be my suggestion.

Trevor.


I am currently testing for the best wiring configuration. This $300.00
Yamaha keyboard's sampled sounds are much better than many of my other
keyboards costing $2500.00 and $3000.00 from yesteryear. Talk to Jack
Black and *many* others. Call it a toy, I have no earthly care. :-)



Many keyboards from yesteryear costing as many thousands as you'd care
to throw at them in fact did have sound/audio quality that is limited
compared to some cheap ones of more recent days.

That doesn't in itself make cheap current ones fantastic, but yours may
indeed have some aspects that are better. But do compare apples with
apples, and see what sound quality you get from the *equivalent*
market-level of current keyboard.

Hell, I have a DX7 and a TX816(actually TX818 when you take into account
the 2 extra modules fitted) that were totally SOTA when they came out,
probably costing well over $5K at even those days money value. They do
sound pretty crappy today, drowning in quantisation noise and limited
frequency response.

But my more current-technology Nord and Rolands sound absolutely stunning.

geoff
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For those of you that have a problem with this thread and my posts
please ignore them. If you don't like what keyboard or wire that I use
get over it. I have my reasons and there are many and I didn't feel
necessary to explain all of the reasons why.

With that said, I am an active professional musician and I record, mix
and master with great results.

Sorry if this post is coming off arrogant but rec.audio.pro has
beautiful minds but where is the heart that most forums have now?

I have been in this business for decades and have had everything from
pianos, Juno 106, DX21, 7, M1, Kurzweil 2500, GigaDaws, and on and on
and on throughout the years.

This keyboard is great for traveling/touring with the built in speakers
and the low wattage needed with even batteries if I wanted to. There is
also a full panoply of sampled sounds that sound great to my ears which
I trust based on all of the keyboards that I have owned. I would post
some of my music but you haters would find something to complain about
and I would then prefer to just be anonymous.

For those that cannot read I asked in my first post to not denigrate me
for using a consumer keyboard and heaven forbid using star quad cable
which allows me to split the main conductors and ground easily and I had
the wire readily available; Markertek has been my friend for two decades.

This toy has nothing wrong with it and the power supply is fine. Like I
said before I was cranking the gains and noticed a tad bit more noise
with the TRS to the XLR splits. I am highly sensitive and allergic to
noise but love tape. I bought a Livewire cable from GC with 1/4 inch
connectors and everything was *fine* except it is 9 feet and I cannot
get anything local within a week and I need around 12-14 feet.

I have soldered many times before and it isn't always pretty and usually
butt ugly. Today I soldered some instrument cables, balanced
interconnects, and then this beast which I was clueless to but my
soldering was my best ever. Thanks Mike I needed grounds on both even
though the power supply isn't grounded and I appreciate your offer Scott
for some cable.

I have my limitations on what I can do like all of us but I also have
owned a half dozen Fender tube amps for you tube snobs along with the
Fender Floor and Fender Mustangs for you emulation snobs ;-)

I own a solder sucker and have fixed circuit boards on SS Fender amps.

I own around 40 plus Universal Audio plugins and can get professional
results in my studio with the computers I build.

I think I am having a me too moment (private joke and most of you men
that do not read will not understand) ;-)

There is nothing wrong with this keyboard or its power supply and I have
no idea where this was picked up and no pun intended. Again, I said my
gain staging was *cranked* and there was more noticeable noise with the
cables I was using. Problem fixed and I have learned a lot from all of
you and the great engineering minds that exist on this forum.

For those that have chimed in I truly appreciate it and sorry for this
rant; it is very late for me. I will refrain from asking the stupid
questions and just stay stupid.

Have a great day and weekend everyone and sorry for my bother.

Peace out!

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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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On 10/02/2018 12:16, Linda Masterson wrote:

For those that have chimed in I truly appreciate it and sorry for this
rant; it is very late for me. I will refrain from asking the stupid
questions and just stay stupid.

There are no stupid questions, though there have been those on here
trying to push their own views on what you should be doing and how you
should do it. These may count as stupid answers...

Please keep asking, though you may need to suppress the noise a bit to
find the signal in the answers.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.


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Phil Allison[_4_] Phil Allison[_4_] is offline
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Linda Masterson wrote:

-----------------------

For those of you that have a problem with this thread and my posts
please ignore them.


** We have a problem with people like you, darl.

And you are making yourself hard to ignore.


If you don't like what keyboard or wire that I use
get over it.



** We have a problem with people like you giving us directions.

Tends to get in the way of anyone taking heed of good advice.


I have my reasons and there are many and I didn't feel
necessary to explain all of the reasons why.


** The ones you deigned to supply were enough to give fair warning -

that we are dealing with a another control freak.



With that said, I am an active professional musician and I record, mix
and master with great results.


** Counts for nothing when you cannot fix a hum, darl.


Sorry if this post is coming off arrogant



** Oh yeah, you sound real damn sorry.


( snip blatant insult)



I have been in this business for decades and have had everything from
pianos, Juno 106, DX21, 7, M1, Kurzweil 2500, GigaDaws, and on and on
and on throughout the years.


** Counts for nothing when you can't fix a hum - darl.


This keyboard is great for traveling/touring with the built in speakers
and the low wattage needed with even batteries if I wanted to.


** But are so ASHAMED of it you utterly refuse to post the model number ?

Common courtesy demands that info should have been in the very first post.

But being a life long control freak, you could not bear to give away your "upper hand" in the game - could you ??


There is
also a full panoply of sampled sounds that sound great to my ears which...



** Counts for nothing when you cannot fix a hum - darl.


For those that cannot read I asked in my first post to not denigrate me
for using a consumer keyboard and heaven forbid using star quad cable ..



** We can read, but are not inclined to take looney instructions from control freaks.


This toy has nothing wrong with it and the power supply is fine. Like I
said before I was cranking the gains and noticed a tad bit more noise
with the TRS to the XLR splits.



** Which is of no consequence what so ever.

Except to a control freak.


I am highly sensitive and allergic to noise but love tape.



** Are you also a Vegan who loves steak ?



I have soldered many times before and it isn't always pretty and usually
butt ugly.


** You always insist on doing things you are hopeless at ?

Whist bullying others NOT to do the what they are best at ?

Think we can add "megalomaniac" to control freak.




I have my limitations on what I can do like all of us but I also have
owned a half dozen Fender tube amps for you tube snobs along with the
Fender Floor and Fender Mustangs for you emulation snobs ;-)


** Oh wow look, gratuitous insults are raining from heaven.

How blessed are we.


I own a solder sucker and have fixed circuit boards on SS Fender amps.


** OK, that is quite an achievement.


I own around 40 plus Universal Audio plugins and can get professional
results in my studio with the computers I build.

I think I am having a me too moment (private joke and most of you men
that do not read will not understand) ;-)


** Hmmmm - she does mind reading as a side line too.


There is nothing wrong with this keyboard or its power supply and I have
no idea where this was picked up and no pun intended.


** You were and are still hiding important information - doing that sets of LOUD alarm bells with anyone trying to give good advice under their REAL names.



..... Phil

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Phil Allison wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

Remember the *only" connector is a HP jack.

IME, such units do not have enough metal shielding to exclude buzz and hum
from fluoro and dimmed domestic lighting.


I have a little box that has 600:600 transformers in it and a shunt load
on the transformer secondary. The idea being that with a lower impedance
load, the keyboard noise is less severe. I have really only had to use it
with $10 Casio keyboards, gameboys, and the like, but it helps a bit for
the really cheap stuff.


** Grounding the common rail inside such contraptions often makes injected electrical noise from the environment worse.


What do you mean by "grounding?" The grounds on the input are not bonded
to the grounds of the output. (They can be with a switch if necessary).
The idea is to float the two grounds.

The OTHER marvelous benefit of the transformer is that it provides a free
low-pass filter to reduce RF noise, which is one of the biggest problems
with these things. Switching supplies produce RF trash, it gets into audio
electronics and nonlinearities detect it down into audio.

When no such ground exists ( eg when the unit is on battery power ) signals tend to inject into all wiring equally, leaving little differential anywhere.

Same goes when coupled through a 1:1 transformer, with low capacitance to earth.


These things are true. You can't do anything about the noise on the unbalanced
input side other than to low-pass some of it and to provide a low enough
load impedance that capacitively-coupled noise is reduced.

But you CAN split grounds between the balanced and unbalanced side, and you
CAN balance the signal as close as possible to the instrument.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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In article , Mike Rivers wrote:
On 2/9/2018 6:16 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
I suggested to Linda that the hum might actually be coming from the SMPS
wall wart, not the cabling.

I said that to check that, she could try connecting a different power
supply.


There isn't anything in a COMMERCIAL, APPROVED switching mode power
supply that can cause hum. They're surprisingly clean. Finding a
suitable substitute power supply, unless she'd bench-equipped like Phil
and me and maybe you is likely to be difficult. You need the right
voltage, pretty close to the right current, and the correct size plug
wired with the proper polarity.


I am skeptical, Mike. I spend much of my day tracking down RF noise coming
out of crappy switching supplies. It's true that good clean switchers do
exist, but it's also true that you're likely not to find them at the music
store or at Wal-Mart.

If a piece of gear hums by itself, that's an equipment problem. If you
get hum when you connect it to something else, that's a system problem
and there are many places to look for solutions. In my experience, a
power supply is a possible offender, but there are other places to look
for trouble - which may include isolating the power supply from the
common system ground (which may not be the brown stuff under the house).


Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.

The original poster claims to have a hum.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Phil Allison wrote:

** I would never ask a customer to do what GM has asked the OP to do - par=
tly because linear ( regulated or not) external DC PSUs are banned from sa=
le here in Australia. They fall foul of minimum energy efficiency regulatio=
ns.


They aren't in the US. You can get a nice variety of quality line lumps
from Digi-Key. However, I agree that this is likely not the original poster's
problem, if she has a hum.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Linda Masterson wrote:
On 2/9/2018 8:24 PM, Trevor wrote:

Which hers doesn't have since it only has a headphone jack. I'd be
surprised if anything without a proper output socket is any more than a
toy though. (in fact I even have a TOY keyboard with proper MIDI sockets
and R+L/M sockets, so it's probably a cheap toy at that!) So I'm
wondering why the hell she is going to all the trouble in the first
place? A REAL keyboard would be my suggestion.


I am currently testing for the best wiring configuration. This $300.00
Yamaha keyboard's sampled sounds are much better than many of my other
keyboards costing $2500.00 and $3000.00 from yesteryear. Talk to Jack
Black and *many* others. Call it a toy, I have no earthly care. :-)


This may be the case, and if so you should think about how much money
you have saved, and realize that spending a couple hundred dollars for
a transformer isolation device is a small cost in comparison.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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On 2/10/2018 10:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.


I've given a talk about that, with examples, a time or two. Most people
just say "hum" and leave those of us trying to help them out guessing
what the real problem is.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Geoff wrote:

Linda , this Canare star-quad thing is a distraction and should be
ignored as a totally inappropriate solution for the problem at hand.


This is true.

Unless you have, or will in the future have a need for extra-low noise
microphone cables, I suggest you sell what you have left on your roll to
fund this new adventure.


You ALWAYS will have a need for more microphone cables. No matter how many
cables you have, you will need one more. Never get rid of anything useful!

Also, did I miss somewhere what length of cable you need for your
keyboard purpose ? And if the Livewire cable too short, back to the make
up your own, either with:

- A 2 core screened cable fanned-out to single-core cable and mono jacks
at far end.

- Two separate single-core cables from the TRS (bulky at the TRS end) to
mono jacks at the far end.


I like RG-174 (and similar cables) for this because the diameter is small
enough that you can get two into the TRS cable easily, but yet at the same
time they are extremely rugged.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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geoff geoff is offline
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On 11/02/2018 1:16 AM, Linda Masterson wrote:
For those of you that have a problem with this thread and my posts
please ignore them. If you don't like what keyboard or wire that I use
get over it. I have my reasons and there are many and I didn't feel
necessary to explain all of the reasons why.

With that said, I am an active professional musician and I record, mix
and master with great results.

Sorry if this post is coming off arrogant but rec.audio.pro has
beautiful minds but where is the heart that most forums have now?

I have been in this business for decades and have had everything from
pianos, Juno 106, DX21, 7, M1, Kurzweil 2500, GigaDaws, and on and on
and on throughout the years.

This keyboard is great for traveling/touring with the built in speakers
and the low wattage needed with even batteries if I wanted to. There is
also a full panoply of sampled sounds that sound great to my ears which
I trust based on all of the keyboards that I have owned. I would post
some of my music but you haters would find something to complain about
and I would then prefer to just be anonymous.

For those that cannot read I asked in my first post to not denigrate me
for using a consumer keyboard and heaven forbid using star quad cable
which allows me to split the main conductors and ground easily and I had
the wire readily available; Markertek has been my friend for two decades.

This toy has nothing wrong with it and the power supply is fine. Like I
said before I was cranking the gains and noticed a tad bit more noise
with the TRS to the XLR splits. I am highly sensitive and allergic to
noise but love tape. I bought a Livewire cable from GC with 1/4 inch
connectors and everything was *fine* except it is 9 feet and I cannot
get anything local within a week and I need around 12-14 feet.

I have soldered many times before and it isn't always pretty and usually
butt ugly. Today I soldered some instrument cables, balanced
interconnects, and then this beast which I was clueless to but my
soldering was my best ever. Thanks Mike I needed grounds on both even
though the power supply isn't grounded and I appreciate your offer Scott
for some cable.

I have my limitations on what I can do like all of us but I also have
owned a half dozen Fender tube amps for you tube snobs along with the
Fender Floor and Fender Mustangs for you emulation snobs ;-)

I own a solder sucker and have fixed circuit boards on SS Fender amps.

I own around 40 plus Universal Audio plugins and can get professional
results in my studio with the computers I build.

I think I am having a me too moment (private joke and most of you men
that do not read will not understand) ;-)

There is nothing wrong with this keyboard or its power supply and I have
no idea where this was picked up and no pun intended. Again, I said my
gain staging was *cranked* and there was more noticeable noise with the
cables I was using. Problem fixed and I have learned a lot from all of
you and the great engineering minds that exist on this forum.

For those that have chimed in I truly appreciate it and sorry for this
rant; it is very late for me. I will refrain from asking the stupid
questions and just stay stupid.

Have a great day and weekend everyone and sorry for my bother.

Peace out!



Linda,

No problems with you, your posts, your instruments, or whatever. The
only thing is that you may be attributing there perceived problem to the
wrong cause. We are trying to help find the right cause.

I guess if you try everything suggested, that may help narrow things
down. And if none of those find the problem, then that leaves one thing.
Or maybe another thing that nobody has thought of yet.

geoff
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On 11/02/2018 4:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:


Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.

The original poster claims to have a hum.
--scott



Stuck B key ?

;- )

geoff
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geoff wrote:
On 11/02/2018 4:38 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:


Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.

The original poster claims to have a hum.
--scott



Stuck B key ?

;- )

geoff


Bb if memory serves correctly.

PS: the OP just said lately that her keyboard could be battery powered if
desired. I think that's the big test to show whether the "hum" is coming
from the power supply, or the cable to the mixer.



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Scott Dorsey wrote:

-----------------------


Remember the *only" connector is a HP jack.

IME, such units do not have enough metal shielding to exclude
buzz and hum from fluoro and dimmed domestic lighting.


I have a little box that has 600:600 transformers in it and a shunt load
on the transformer secondary. The idea being that with a lower impedance
load, the keyboard noise is less severe. I have really only had to use it
with $10 Casio keyboards, gameboys, and the like, but it helps a bit for
the really cheap stuff.


** Grounding the common rail inside such contraptions often makes injected electrical noise from the environment worse.


What do you mean by "grounding?"


** I was referring to poorly shielded, $10 contraptions.


The grounds on the input are not bonded
to the grounds of the output. (They can be with a switch if necessary).
The idea is to float the two grounds.


** Yep.

The other dodge that works is to place the contraption on a sheet of metal much bigger than the device and ground that with a clip lead.

Mind you, no fluoro tubes switched on in the same room.


...... Phil

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Scott Dorsey wrote:

--------------------


You can get a nice variety of quality line lumps from Digi-Key.



** I had a look, wall to wall SMPSs far as the eye could see.

Can you point to a say 12V, 2A *linear* regulated supply ??



..... Phil

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Ralph Barone wrote:

-------------------


PS: the OP just said lately that her keyboard could be battery powered if
desired. I think that's the big test to show whether the "hum" is coming
from the power supply, or the cable to the mixer.



** Some items can still hum though running on batteries, like an elaborate electronic keyboard stuffed in a plastic box.



..... Phil







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Linda, I'm curious at this point, what is your objection to a di box, which more and more seems the solution you need. At least try a cheap one and see if it resolves the hum. If so, we can go from there.

Mark
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Mike Rivers wrote:

-------------------

Indeed, this is true. Switching supply noise does not sound like a hum.
Distinguishing hums, buzzes and hisses is half the struggle.


I've given a talk about that, with examples, a time or two. Most people
just say "hum" and leave those of us trying to help them out guessing
what the real problem is.


** Becomes a REAL hassle if the owner cannot demonstrate the noise to the tech but still expects instant diagnosis.

A regular customer and PA system owner began having a "hum" problem with his home stereo, so he brought me his TT and amplifier - which showed no sign of hum whatsoever.

When he casually mentioned that the "hum" even showed up on his cassette deck, I firmly directed him to make a recording and bring it to me.

When I finally got to hear the "hum" I instantly recognised it as coming from a TV set - it had the characteristic 50Hz tone of frame buzz. No wayyy, said my customer, the TV in the room was always off when using the stereo.

Hmmmmmm ....... I puts on me thinking cap.

Is your stereo set up against a common wall with a neighbour ??

He had to admit is was.

Turned out the neighbour had recently moved his TV to the opposite side of this wall, directly behind my customer's stereo.



..... Phil

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